relation with placebo effect and m.b.a. from n.e.w

[volcomstone]

ummmmm, no.

[Kalonek]

Err i must confess that i don't really see the similarities between the 2 things (?) A placebo effect is a medicine that has no physical action on the body but that helps the patient think he will be cured and in most case he is indeed cured. It's the psychological factor that does it all here. A typical test for the placebo is giving a pill made only of sugar to someone and tell him it's xanax or whatever, and he'll feel very tired a few minutes later and will indeed sleep.

[cesm23]

to kalonek :

WHAT ?! So THAT is the placebo effect ?! Then the information i got at psipog was completly wrong. They said that thing of making our hands tingling just by thinking on them, was just a placebo effect, i guess is them who are wrong... Oh yeah, i think they don't believe on n.e.w. or even about chakras...

Hum... so i guess that if someone would say that a certain pill would gave psychic abilities if he would take that pill, and in reality that pill doing absolutly nothing, just by the fact of the pacient having the hope and believe that it would do that, maybe something would happen related to psychic ablities... or about that it's not that easy and it's only for curing ?

[Michael_E]

quote:Originally posted by cesm23

isn't it the same thing ? Well i confess i don't know exactly what does mean placebo effect, but from what i know it's very similar to the mobile awareness as it's described on n.e.w. Please correct me if this is not right, and if both things are very different or not.

With the placebo effect it is the matter of suggestion that has an effect. so i think i see what you are getting at here... Are you trying to say that mobile awareness is a form of suggestion using the imagination to feel sensations sensations that arnt really there, basically that what we feel when doing m.b.a drills is not real but a result of suggestive imagination?

[Kalonek]

quote:Originally posted by cesm23

to kalonek :

WHAT ?! So THAT is the placebo effect ?!

Yep

quote:

Hum... so i guess that if someone would say that a certain pill would gave psychic abilities if he would take that pill, and in reality that pill doing absolutly nothing, just by the fact of the pacient having the hope and believe that it would do that, maybe something would happen related to psychic ablities... or about that it's not that easy and it's only for curing ?

Yes i think it would work to some extent, depending on the real energy developement of that person. But i don't think anyone's gonna believe in this miracle pill though lol But it's used a lot for curing, even with effective medicines to make the effects even bigger (by telling the patient it's going to cure all his medical problems very quickly etc so that the psychological effect helps the medicine to work even better)

[Vojn Svetla Gorskog]

Hello there cesm23!

A "placebo effect" is a term describing an ineffective stimulus and a suggested or interpreted response from that stimulus.

Lets say 10 people are given sleeping pills. One of them is the "placebo" pill and is really a jellybean.
So, the expected outcome is 9 people fall asleep and 1 person is awake.
In some cases, this person will fall asleep because the "social factor" and this is purely habitual/suggestive.

So in both cases, the pill had no effect, before or after consumption.

Now, why can't we relate this to NEW?

Think of NEW as an exercise of the senses. A pianist playing for 30 years has aquired a sense of hearing such that he can distinguish tones, rhytms, to such granularity that nobody else hears. Some people can do this in 10 years, some in 5, depending on various psychological factors.

In NEW, of course you have to start with suggestive sensations because with regular "suggestive" exercises you trigger and develop the real energies which will later run through your body. There is nothing "placebo" about it.

With kind regards,

Vojn Svetla Gorskog

[blakera]

These people at psipog could prove to themselves the existence of chakras and the fact that NEW's affects are not a result of a placebo affect by doing stimulation techniques, say in the middle of the forearm for example.  While certain stimulation techniques will get a big reaction done whenover a primary chakra for example, the same stimulation techniques will get no response when done over a part of the body with no chakras.  These people like most skeptics are not motivated enough to put forth any effort to see what can be done so they're just like "oh that's not real".  

Placebo affects are very limited.

[mactombs]

quote:Are you trying to say that mobile awareness is a form of suggestion using the imagination to feel sensations sensations that arnt really there, basically that what we feel when doing m.b.a drills is not real but a result of suggestive imagination?

I don't know if that's what he's trying to say, but I lean toward that direction. I admit I don't have a lot of experience in this kind of thing, but the explanation there sounds a lot more probable than saying the sensations are really there. Most likely if a scientific test was done that could sense increases in any kind of energy, it wouldn't find any increase in energy (but I could be wrong, and I can't suggest what kind of test be performed).

There have been tests where a psychic healer performed healings on a group where people in the group didn't know which one of them was being healed. The healer had worse results than even statisitically probable by chance. Of course, if a person was told they're being healed, or believed it was them, they'd start feeling better, even if no one had done anything to them. This is a placebo effect.

I've tried the NEW techniques and had absolutely no results of any kind. I take a martial arts class, and if anyone qualifies as being a practicioner of ki, it's one of the masters there (he's blind, but you'd never know it). I still am not convinced about ki, but as far as the energy pathways and so forth, it's similar to NEW.

So is NEW feasible? I don't see why not. I'm skeptical, but I won't deny the possibility until I've had more experience. It's worth looking into. As far as sensations associated with NEW being all just made up in the mind, I think that is also possible.

We'll see. I'll probably have to ask some of you for advice on getting results.

[blakera]

Mactombs:  NEW does deal with qi.  That's what it is.  If you don't get any results with NEW, you must not be doing it right, or you have an energy problem.  How can you not be convinced about qi when you've been zapped by qi strikes and that guy who's blind can see?  This is Blake from the Buhlman forum... I've argued with you about all this stuff before as you know.  I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I think you're being a little thick.  Well... I guess there are some people who for whatever reason refuse to believe, and I think I'm through arguing with skeptics, because it's frustrating.  Didn't you say that you got to the vibration state once?  I can understand how some people who don't know much about all this stuff can be skeptical, but I'm just not sure how you can remain skeptical after what you've experienced in regards to qi.  Did you see what I wrote about the forearm test?  If I were you I'd reread the NEW guide, and then practise until you feel stuff and then try that test.  If you try it only after you've moved on to the primary chakra work, I think you will have to be convinced.  Unlike most skeptics, you are practising this stuff... (I'm not sure why since you're so skeptical), but I admire that and I'm sure if you practise for long and hard enough you'll prove things to yourself.  Good luck with NEW, maybe you just need a little practise with doing the techniques good enough, have you tried taking a hot shower first?  The people with the most experience are here, but I'm pretty happy about what I've done with NEW so far, I get real big energy sensations.  If you want to ask any questions at the astralinfo forum I'll be sure to reply.

[blakera]

How much have you tried NEW mactombs?  I just thought I'd add that I didn't have much in the way of sensations for at least my first time either.  I guess I'm better with the techniques now.

If this energy isn't real then how would you explain the serious damage that a Kundalini experience can cause to someone's body?  That'd be a pretty darn big placebo affect lol.

[blakera]

Oh yeah, and this energy can be measured.  It's been done in relation to acupuncture.  I don't know with what instrument, but the person who told me about that was the administrative director at one of the best acupucture schools on the country.

[mactombs]

Well, Blake, I can see where I can come off seeming pretty dense considering my experience with ki and all the other experiences I've had. (Not to mention all the great stuff on the Buhlman forum). But, as Carl Sagan said, "Extraordinary proof requires extraordinary evidence."

For as many things there are that seem amazing, there are studies done that explain them as being caused by very mundane things. In some instances, ki strikes by martial practicioners that have been looked into deeper reveal that apparently the "master" likes to keep a tazer handy. Of course, in my ki experienecs, nothing of the sort occured, but in these no one was getting "zapped" and dropping into convulsions either. I can't honestly say that I'm being fair with my experiences if I'm just willing to accept only one explaination. I am not satisfied with mere "belief".

On the other hand, there are plenty of things I can't think of any ordinary explanations for. I have no idea how the master at my dojo might as well not be blind at all, or what makes ki strikes powerful as they are. I also have no idea why sometimes I wake up and see things that until I can't actually touch them, I can't believe they aren't really there. But that doesn't mean the explanation offered is the right one.

I appreciate your arguments, Blake, because they've led me into all kinds of interesting things (such as making a better effort into getting the Astral Dynamics book and reading it, for just one example). I appreciate your willingness to argue back, too. I agree that arguing with skeptics in a pain in the butt, and not worth your time if they've already made up their minds. No matter what evidence your provide, some people won't believe it. (But isn't it also true that no matter how much evidence against something, people won't give up belief in it?) Let me assure you, however, that I have not made up my mind. I simply haven't felt adequately convinced that the explanations offered are the right ones, and if they are, in what cases.

The only way to better decide this, is to learn more. I need to experience it as well. By arguing that NEW might be placebo, I look for arguments and points of consideration that I might have overlooked. Because what I have read about NEW, it seems like a potentially important thing, but thus far I have been unable to verify its usefulness to any extent.

So maybe a better (simpler) question to ask is, how did you approach NEW and in what way did it affect you? And how did you discern those affects differed from placebo?

[blakera]

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11339

The posts I made there will tell you a lot of how I went about starting NEW, and also answer your questions you had at the other forum of how some people's (mine) experiences got started.  

I can't completely remember, but I'm not sure that I had really noticeable sensations with NEW until after I'd done the energy raising for a while.  At first with NEW, and still sometimes with prestimulation, it was easiest for me to notice NEW's affects if compared how the foot (or whatever) that I was working on felt compared to my other foot.  The difference was what was most easlily noticed.  Because of my OBEs and stuff I'd had, I think my energy body was in good shape before I started NEW, and free of blockages... I never got any big or unusual sensations that I would associate with an energy blockage.  Now I get big heat sensations accompanied with a slight tingling... the easiest way to describe it is just to say it feels like energy, with waves, slight eruptions and flowing.  Part of the reason I suggested that forearm test thing is because of the unique sensations I get with the primary chakras.  My sensations in those are hard to describe but very different than anywhere else.  A good analogy might be to say that before I stimulate a primary chakra, the area feels normal, relaxed, like a flat piece of paper if you will, then after just like less than a minute of stimulation it feels very tense, like that piece of paper krinkled up into a tight, hard, small ball.  One reason I knew where my primary chakras actually were was because I wasn't exactly hitting them at first... and an area slightly higher than that I was working on tensed up for my solar plexus, heart and brow... in other words, it was not the part I was most focused on that responded.  

The way I approached NEW in the beggining was that I just did clearing for 2 or 3 weeks, and by that I mean I just went through all areas of my body with every back and forth motion that Bruce mentions for each body part, only moving to a different exercise after I got a feeling.  One thing Kalonek said (if I remember right) is that if you can't get any response you should work on the toe or whatever it is until it responds even if it takes an hour.  Remember that slight feelings indicate an energy body clear of blockages.  I'm pretty sure I'm clear of blockages, but I still get very noticeable sensations though when I'm raising energy.  

With your question of measuring the energy, you might also find it interesting to know that Robert Monroe was able to affect an instument with energy moved to his hands.  His energy was also measured during his vibration states.

[mactombs]

Thanks for the info! It gives me a good idea where to start for my own personal approach.

I think it's also safe to say, reading both threads, that the sensations you describe have nothing to do with the placebo affect. If it is all just generated inside the brain, I'd be hard-pressed to try to explain why or how. It sounds very intriguing.

I'll re-read the NEW sections of Astral Dynamics and the info on this website, and start off with clearing like you suggest.

Thanks again. I'll let you know how it works for me.

[blakera]

I look forward to hearing how it goes.  I'm excited for you!  Just keep in mind that this training and it's results takes time.  I didn't feel a whole lot at first but I really do now.  I finished a few minutes ago and my legs are still hot.

[mactombs]

Update: I've been spending about 30-60 minutes a day on the clearing (I think that's the right term, it's the section starting with the toes, the feet, legs, etc.). I generally only do the lower half, and not the arms and hands at this point. I have not moved on to energy raising of any kind.

The first time I did the exercises with my left foot, I would be lying if I said I didn't feel anything. Each part responded, and afterward my whole foot had a subtle tingling, slight heaviness, and in some places pinpoints of slight stinging or itching. Both feet had clear "energy sensations", though not particularly strong, and both hands as well, but quite a bit less strongly (though in the last day the tip of my right pinkie has been stinging quite painfully). It's definitely a sensation that results from the NEW exercising, and this is encouraging.

I've also noticed that just bringing my awareness to my foot/hand sets my whole foot tingling right away. Is this normal?

Another side-effect that may have some relation to this is a kind of numb pain I've felt in my solar plexus ever since I started. My research in chakras suggests to me that my lower three chakras all are quite inactive. In relation to this, my root chakra yesterday hurt quite painfully, but when I relaxed and imagined healing energy flowing from my higher active chakras to the painful spot, the spot immediately and cozily soothed and hasn't bothered me since. When I first did the mobile awarness to see if I really could sense my root chakra, it tickled unbearably. Also, I have felt sensations in my throat chakra as well that I can't relate to any physical sensation I've had before.

An important (for me anyway) question I'd like to ask, is any of the chakra (especially the solar plexus feeling) normal?

Anyway, I guess these results sounds pretty weird coming from a skeptic who still doesn't know precisely what to think of the whole chakra, energy, NEW, OBE thing. But being honest with myself, either I had some bizzare and very varied localized sensations, or I've felt just what Astral Dynamics suggests you might feel.

It is exciting, Blake, now that I look back on it and also wonder what the future holds - and I thank you for keeping my skepticism honest.

[blakera]

quote:I've also noticed that just bringing my awareness to my foot/hand sets my whole foot tingling right away. Is this normal?

 I think that's normal, I saw someone say the same thing in a case study in the online guide I think.  I guess I've had that happen a little, to an extent.  

quote:An important (for me anyway) question I'd like to ask, is any of the chakra (especially the solar plexus feeling) normal?

 So wait, I assume you were just experimenting when you were stimulating primary chakras, 'cause Bruce says not to do them until after 3 months of work on your secondary system (page 172) (I guess you know that).  If the sensations in one of your primarys was 'caused just by the work you did on your secondary system, I bet it's normal, just maybe clearing or something because Bruce says the work on the secondary system greatly increases flow to the primarys.  I think you'll be ok no matter what if you follow the book and Bruce's recomendations online because NEW seems well researched and Bruce seems to have totally figured out a way to develope your energy in a balanced manner.  I guess the biggest diference between how you and I approached NEW is that I worked on clearing my hands right in the beggining, but I guess it doesn't matter.

[mactombs]

quote:So wait, I assume you were just experimenting when you were stimulating primary chakras, 'cause Bruce says not to do them until after 3 months of work on your secondary system (page 172)

That is correct. I only tried experimenting with the base chakra. This was before I ever heard of NEW, and I was researching chakras. I thought the whole idea was silly, and one of the depictions of the base chakra suggested focusing on it (mobile awareness?). I did, and it started tickling isanely, so I stopped right away. I have not done any primary work, only secondary. I am sticking to Bruce's guidelines.

quote:If the sensations in one of your primarys was 'caused just by the work you did on your secondary system, I bet it's normal, just maybe clearing or something because Bruce says the work on the secondary system greatly increases flow to the primarys.

I believe you are right here. I had gotten confused with the solar plexus region and your "center" as defined in martial arts. What I've actually been feeling, I believe, is the sub-navel storage area, which makes sense.

[mactombs]

Update:

I've continued my secondary work, also now including the hands and arms. The more I do it, the easier it is. I don't have to think as hard, it comes pretty naturally without having to focus very much at all. I also find the practice makes entering a trance easy, as it quite effectively centers my attention while allowing me to relax.

The energy sensations aren't profound, but they are definitely there, a subtle kind of flowing electricity feeling that I can direct into my subnavel storage area. It's quite soothing, as today relaxing and listening to music and practicing NEW I felt relaxed, and a strange pleasantness that's hard to describe.

Last night I woke up several times, and took it as an opportunity to practice more. The last time I woke up, I began to feel vibrations (the second time ever for me). I focused on increasing the frequency, and managed to do so, but blacked out.

I've also been using the Triangle Method now that I understand the 3D blackness and astral hearing better. I find this to be more effective the more I try it as well.

Ever since I started trying to project quite a while ago, there was a tense feeling in my right leg that was always there even if my leg was relaxed. I tried the wrapping techniques Bruce suggested, and the tense feeling is almost gone.

The other day something else interesting happened. I was practicing while I relaxed on a friend's recliner. The sensations flowed all the way up my body, and my crown chakra started tingling strongly. This went on for a while, until my friend's cat jumped onto to chair and started sniffing around the top of my head. Weird. (Any comments on this one?)

Anyway, I've been very pleased with NEW. Is it placebo? I don't think so, although I could certainly never prove it. In any case, I'm feeling very appreciative to Robert Bruce for sharing it. Thanks!

[blakera]

For the last couple days I've been doing something off and on during my NEW sessions that has improved my visualization and made my sweeps much more effective.  I've had my strongest energy flow sensations yet.  What I've been doing off and on is like:  If I'm just sweeping up my legs, while I'm laying there I hold my hands above my thighs and maove them along (slightly) with my awareness hands.  I only move my arms slightly and only from the forearms down, but it really helps me to feel my awareness hands better and to make them work more effectively.  Just because it helps me imagine them better.  I only do it off and on, sort of like training wheels, because after I've done it some I can continue to imagine them just as efficiently.  I plan on quitting doing it once it won't help anymore but I think it's ok to do this too since it works and Bruce says that eventually we'll be able to do it all while talking and stuff and that we can do the two part circuit in any position.  This also helps with my arm sweeps and stuff.  Anyway, I just thought I'd share this in case you want to try it, maybe you don't need it but it's no big deal to try.  I'm glad to hear how well NEW is working for you and that you got to the vib. state again.  I wonder why you blacked out.  Oh well, I bet you won't next time. Good luck!

[cesm23]

isn't it the same thing ? Well i confess i don't know exactly what does mean placebo effect, but from what i know it's very similar to the mobile awareness as it's described on n.e.w. Please correct me if this is not right, and if both things are very different or not.