vegetarianism

[Qui-Gon Jinn]

Hi A-M..  Wow, that has got to be some really screwed up people saying that... lol.. animal protein needed to be able to project, I don´t usually laugh at other peoples opinion, but this time I cracked up a little..  at the ones saying that, not you of course.
All protein sources aren´t "fully equipped", but you can find lots and lots of the "fully equipped" (as good as the animal ones if not better, and without the bad stuff that comes with it) in the vegetarian kingdom!!  Take the soy bean for example, you can´t find better protein than that...  
I would think the people stating this has a few thingies loose up in their offices, or/and they feel they have to find some way to justify why they kill and eat animals - why not say you need animal protein to develop your energy body?  YAY!!   *sigh*
I don´t mean eating meat is wrong, so don´t everyone go attacking me.

   Anyway, this is my 2 cents on the whole thing (learned that expression here on the forums yesterday, these forums really are informative... lol..)

 Be well //Qui-Gon


- Your focus determines your reality -

[cainam_nazier]

ooooo 2 cents..  That's a lot...  But seriously I would have to agree.  
An easy test.  Work on the new system.  If you can raise energy then you can project.  Simple, eh.




"I'm so poor I can't even pay attention."


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com

[jo]

I have been vegetarian all my life....have never eaten meat....my parents were vegetarian. They led active spiritual/psychic lives . Mum died 2 weeks ago aged 98. I'm very active and energetic and psychically/spiritually alert and I'm 61 years of age. I'm not saying that's any big deal..there must plenty others the same...just mentioning it for the record, since you asked for contributions to this subject. I don't know what would happen to my system if I ate some meat.

jo

[Qui-Gon Jinn]

Jo, don´t try it please (relating to your last sentence), we wan´t you around!!  

 Be well //Qui-Gon

- Your focus determines your reality -

[Tom]

The way I heard it was the other way around. If you eat meat, you lower your "vibrations" or "frequency" and become less able to do astral projection and meditation. Your physical body is made up of physical matter, which you obtain from food and drink. The astral body is not composed of physical matter, but rather of astral substance. While I believe that having a healthy body will make having a healthier mind and healthier astral body easier, I do not think that what we digest becomes part of the astral body.

[goku22]

Jo, I've been a vegetarian my entire life also, I've met plenty of vegetarians, but very few who haven't ever eaten meat. One time, I thought what my friend had were french fries, so I asked for one, they were some nasty chicken thing instead. I didn't swallow it, and to this day, it makes me want to barf. I've never tasted something that felt as "wrong" as that. I think there might be something to the whole eating meat, means eating bad energies kind of thing. Obviously some groups have done it right, the native americans used everything, and gave the proper respect to the animal's spirit. I just think in today's society, it's so easy to just go to the grocery that people don't actually think about what they're eating. People always say to me, "Well vegetables have to die for you to eat them, what about that?" They have a point of course, unless you eat only fruit, you can't eat without killing something. I don't think killing for food is wrong, I just wish there was more respect going around.  Ben

[Winged_Wolf]

Hm, no....I don't think AP is dependent on diet insofar as that is concerned.
I know psis who run the range from near-carnivory to veganism, and they're still fine psis.  This just doesn't seem to have a real effect on abilities.  It may for individual people, of course--eat what seems to agree with your body, and trust your instincts on that.

Interestingly, in a discussion on one of the lists regarding diet and psi, someone theorized that a diet high in salt may contribute to ease in using psi.  It'd be interesting to do a real study on that some day.  It's not healthy, but it might make psi work better.


--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[kifyre]

Just for general interest, some people think soy is unhealthy. Supposedly, industry propaganda is the reason everyone thinks its so good for you. For example, soy is a processed food (not "natural") and not a complete protein. I don't know, but I don't eat it to be safe.

http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/index24.html

Also, I don't want to start a vegetarian debate. I have to say though, that it's my understanding that certain essential human nutrients are not found in the vegetarian diet. Supplements are essential. This is just what I've read. I just want people to make an informed decision about their diet, and not stop eating certain things because, well, because it's new-agey and "pure."

I apologize if the above sounds simplistic or condescending. The idea of not eating meat truly appeals to me, and I'm sure it works for some people. Just please research carefully if you're undecided and haven't already been doing it for many years.

Mark

[distant bell]

I am a vegetarian and have been that for as long as I can remember.
Even if it would turn out that living as a vegetarian would shorten the life span (which it dosn´t), I would still not start eating meat.
For me it´s a strickt moral issue.

Conserning the soy- There are different kinds of soy. Ther is the good old fashion one, and the gene modified. Well- so whats the differense you ask? They did not only change the genes of the new soya, but at the same time changed the amount of toxics allowed in it. Thus, the gene modified soya is allowed to have something like ten times as much toxics as the naturall one- pretty practicall, ey!?

I have heard that soya is un healthy too- might be because of this.
(and the dehydratation..)

It´s wery tought though to get enough good proteins as a vegetarian- specially if you are a body bilding or doing some other sport.

Hallo Richard! Nu är jag uppe sådär tidigt igen - kalla det en dålig vana.. och så har jag mycket att plugga- tenta på fredag.

[A-M]

Thanks everybody for your replies!
It gives me hope for a better world when I read a message like Distant Bell's who (like me) values sticking to a moral issue (in this case eating meat) more than his own life!!
To me (like Goku22) it feels so wrong to eat animals that I would find it VERY strange that it would affect my energy-level. Intuitively I feel like Tom said that the contrary is true: that vegetarianism increases your 'frequency/vibrations'
But......as I am not able to project into the astral dimensions (yet) I was not quite certain about it. Somehow if you read it in a book it sounds impressive and you start getting doubts (call me naif).
So, thanks everybody for supporting my feeling about this and hope to see you all in the astal some day!
Anne-Marie

[Winged_Wolf]

Some of the healthiest peoples in the world eat lots of soy...however, that could be genetics, too.
Soy is probably just fine in moderation, and it has some health benefits.  But buy organic, because non-organic soy has one of the highest pesticide loads of any crop.
Soy also contains phytoestrogens--estrogen-mimic chemicals.  This is fine, and probably beneficial if you're a menopausal female.  If you're male, on the other hand, you might want to think about it.  And for children?  Hmmm....



--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[Mobius]

G,day A-M & everyone

This is a topic that makes for lively conversation every time I go
visit my Mother & my sister as both are vegetarians.

Anyway I,m not & each to their own I reckon, so it's all fairly
civilised & I don't tell her to stop eating grass & she doesn't
tell me to stop eating carcass!hehe.

I have read a bit into both,lately I've been reading some debates
between A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada from the Hari Krishna's &
a meat eating Christian,very interesting.I also read an article
published in the latest Nexus magazine & website by Stephen Byrnes
Phd,RNCP 2000,2002, on "The Myths of Vegetarianism".
Check out the latest statement on;
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/vegemyths1.html

What do ya's think? does anyone have any URL's from the vegetarian
side of the debate that isn't covered in this latest article.

All the best on your journeys,vegetarians & omnivores.

It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats!

Mobius

[Qui-Gon Jinn]

Okay I´ve read the article Mobius, although I usually don´t care much for anyones opinion who sees animals only as a resource to be used by a more intelligent species (sometimes I question if we are intelligent but that is another story), like the author of that paper does (he said it himself). And to be honest with you, I didn´t find it very convincing, although I have thought to myself the Q the author states; if being a pure vegeterian (vegan) would be a natural thing for the human being - why wouldn´t she get the so famous vitamin B12 from the vegan kingdom, if it is so important as some say?
Some peole say it exist in algaes, not this author though... but even if it does, not all humans lived by the ocean and could get B12 from the algaes...
 The stuff he is saying under "myth5" (as well as some things he sais in some of the other "myths" as well) "debunks" him though as far as I´m concerned though.... there is well researched material saying quite the opposite of what he is saying about many things there..  one book I can really recommend is "A diet for a new america", by John Robbins, if you are interrested in human nutrition that is and the likes of what the author is taking up in his paper.

 Be well //Qui-Gon

- Your focus determines your reality -

[A-M]

Thanks, Mobius, for the vegemyths-link. I have not had time yet to read all of it, but it looks interesting!
It will not make me change my mind, but I like to be fully informed.
What I do not understand is that a person that is spiritualy involved still eats meat. How can you want a living being to die for you if you know there are plenty of food-alternatives. And on an energy-level: you eat the pain, the suffering and the anguish of another being; how can that benefit you?
I know why the people around me eat meat, but I'm really interested what the answer is of a person that is involved with spirituality.
A-M

[Mobius]

G,day A-M & Qui Gonn

Look I am not trying to convert anyone & just provided that article
for this debate.I wont be changing my diet if an equally dismmissive
article is posted by a vegetarian,as I,m sure the article I posted
wont have the vegetarians rushing to eat meat.

The problem I see a lot of vegetarians run into is one of morals &
ethics.Vegetarians seem to only acknowledge life when it has legs,
blood or brains & somehow plants & great trees have none?
It is because the person has arrived at the decision that killing is
bad,but somehow distinguishes that some killing is acceptable as
long as it doesn't scream or writhe in pain.

All of this completely ignores the fact that we are part of the
food chain & a predator at that.Eyes in the front of the head for
best judging distances to throw something at or jump on something.
Canines in our teeth for cutting meat & nails on our hands that if
we didn't cut regularly would quickly turn back into claws to grab
things tight & pierce skin.

Death is an experience we all go through & it is most likely we
ourselves wont die as quickly & less painfully than animals.
What happens when you die? Whats this site (astral pulse) all about? life after death & we are more than our bodies.If you believe that
this is the case,why the moral stance on animals & not all life.

If you were forced up against a wall & asked to decide on a choice.
You are given a chainsaw & a gun,a sheep & a 300 year old 200ft tall
redwood tree.You have to kill one of them,which one do you choose?
To say plants & trees don't have feelings & because they dont scream
& pour blood it's ok,pretty one eyed I'd say.

I have tried going vegetarian before & it feels like my body is
starved of nutrients,I slow down,I can't process things as quickly in
my mind & just feel drained.

Are plants not living? just because they don't run or scream doesn't
make me somehow think they would enjoy dying less than an animal.
There has to be balance & we are it,so I don't completely agree with
abattoirs but if we didn't condense the killing we wouldn't enjoy
the relatively disease free life we have now.To convert everyone to
vegetarianism would create imbalance & destroy more forests than
present as more agricultural space would be needed,in turn needing
super phosphates to make it viable every year,in turn destroying
the soil & ground water as demonstrated from the old testament
& african continents that were thought to have contained the first
humans,pretty much desert now.

Anyway I,m sure I will get some livid replies,by the way Qui-Gonn
is John Robbins a doctor or is it just some ones opinion.

Good journeys to you all

Mobius

[Winged_Wolf]

I think part of it for me is that I AM psi--and I can read plants to some degree.  I know when they are "alarmed" for example, and also when they are suffering.  I can't imagine, therefore, being kingdomist, and pretending that my perceptions mean nothing.  Life feeds on life...consider, at least when you eat an animal, it's dead.  Plants, because they've no central nervous system, are still alive if you eat them raw.  That's an individual philosophical outlook.  I may think that it's the silliest reason possible to be vegetarian because you don't want to kill things, but in the end it doesn't really matter if people choose to see it that way.

Now, I hate to do this, Mobius....but I have to disagree with you.
Humans have eyes in the front of their head because they are primates.  Primates need to judge distances because the vast majority of them are arboreal.  Climbing and jumping through trees requires extremely good depth perception.  We see in brilliant color so that we can better detect ripe fruits among the branches.  
Our nails will never be claws.  Don't wear them down by using them a lot, and they grow out and become unwieldy, then they break.   They're there to support our finger pads, so that we can better climb and grip things.
Human canines are reduced in size.  But teeth have less to do with diet than we originally thought they do.  The gorilla has massive fangs, but it is largely an herbivore, with the exception of a few insects it adds to its diet.  Bears have the teeth of a carnivore, but they are actually omnivorous.  On the other hand, chimps hunt and eat monkeys--they beat them to death with their hands, then share out the meat.  Chimps are our closest relatives.

To determine our natural diet, you really have to study the known fossil record closely, and also take a close look at the tools our ancestors used.  Digestive capabilities can change before dentition and other outward features do.  We now know, from studying coproliths, that neanderthals were true carnivores.  Our own ancestors were, however, not--they were omnivores, as we are.  The tool kit includes things for digging up roots, and things for hunting and skinning prey.  Studying the diet of "primitive" cultures of humans shows this as well--omnivory is the norm.

Not that this makes any difference.  You CAN live a healthy life on a vegan diet, although you need to take some vitamin supplements.  You can also live a healthy life as an omnivore, with no supplements.  Either way is fine, humans are adaptable.

Now, for my own version of spirituality on this--I don't think a person should eat anything they wouldn't be willing to kill themselves.  If you're fine with killing, go ahead and eat it.  I plan on raising my own chickens in a few years, when I have land.  I'm not going to pay someone to do the dirty work for me.
Then again, I also think I'm a wolf, so your mileage may vary.


--Winged Wolf
"I will stare at the sun until its light doesn't blind me, and I will walk into the fire, 'til its heat doesn't burn me, and I will feed the fire...."

[distant bell]

Actually- eating meat requiers ten times as much agriculrural land then eating plants. So If all people would start living on plants (and fish- to use what grows in the ocean) the amount of land needed for agriculture could be decreased.

I fully agree with Winged Wolf- thou should not eat what you cannot kill with your own hands- thats why I´m a vegetarian...

About the life energy of the things you eat (prana), I have
heard that eating living things (preferebly fresh animals, like
oysters), or rather things still containing life energy can be wery
benefitial. Would this not imply that a diet of fresh plants and vegetables should contain more life energy?

I now that fresh blood has been used in many rituals to suport the magickian with life energy to do different materialisations.

[A-M]

First of all I want to say that I'm delighted with a discussion on this level. Normally it doesn't get further than "well, yes, I do feel sorry for the animals, but I like meat, so......" (which tells you a lot about the inspiring surroundings I live in)
I would like to add some brief points of reflection:

1. what I've learned from the 'inside' of our bodies is that it is not adequate to digest meat: the saliva and the stomach fluid is not acid enough, and our bowels are too long (the teeth were discussed before).
Though not everybody seems to agree with this, from my personal experience I can testify that a lot of (heavy) meat eaters I know have digestion problems....

2. without the help of our intelligence, our body would not be able to hunt down animals. There is no way we would be able to catch a rabit without a weapon or a trap to catch it with. We also use our intelligence to keep animals in places were they can't run away from us. We have a body to climb trees and pick fruit (as was stated before)

3. unfortunately most animals don't die quick and painless (like Mobius suggested) and most of them have terrible lives because of the obsession humans have with making money. Most of them are treated as lifeless products; I'm sure I don't have to list all the things that we do to them in their short lifes. In some countries it might be worse than others, but generally it is too terrible for words what happens behind closed doors. Buying meat is supporting the industry that has no respect whatsoever for animals. It makes you an accomplice to down right torture!

Well, I hope I haven't spoilt your day with all of this.
In the time to come I will have to reevaluate my relationship with plants, thanks to you!!  
A-M

[Mobius]

G,day everyone!

Hey look everyone,I really am not trying to convert anybody,just
putting my ideas in, with a few references.I would really like to
see some information on the vegetarian concept,supported by
factual evidence from doctors or scientists,people who have put it
to the test & have concrete evidence,not just assumptions or
personal feelings.

Winged wolf I'm not sure what you are getting at when you are talking
about me thinking we are carnivores & not omnivores,thats why I
put "all the best on your journeys,vegetarians & omnivores". at the
end of my first post.Predators was the term I used & ok it was probably generalizing things a bit,& there are a lot of animals that
have eyes in front & have canines but the majority of species with
eyes in front are carnivorous predators.As you pointed out some
primates are omnivores as well like chimpanzees,I have no knowledge
of IQ,s when it comes to the apes but aren,t chimpanzees more
intelligent than gorrillas?
As you pointed out also we have canines but small ones.If we were
exclusively vegetarian,we would need a different digestive system
than we have & full of enzymes & bacteria to break the food that we
would have to cosume all day,as in nature they don't have vitamin
supplements & enzyme free cheese.

I am fully willing to kill everything that I eat & have done my own
chickens,geese,pidgeons,snake,rabbit & kangaroo.But as I pointed out
before if we didn't centralize the killing as in abattoirs we would
have an outbreak of disease.

Distant bell,when you talk about "life energy" & the fresher something is or more alive is somehow containing more energy is
unfounded,is there any evidence of this that I could refer to?
Our bodies need Water,Carbohydrates,Lipids,Proteins & some vitamins
& minerals to convert it into energy through our Mitochondrias in
every cell.Meat might be dead a bit longer than the plant but it
still supplies virtually all the requirments we need & fast.

When I hear people talking about energy & raising energy etc. I
know this is true as I do it myself.This is fine for our symbiot
non physical selves but our physical self soon dies off quick & it is
quickly realised that living life energy is needed not just spiritual energy.

As stated in the article I posted,the majority of our land is fairly
dry & has sparse vegetation & this is the land most grazers live on.
The most fertile land is real estate first & or volcanic soils or
rich in sediments from floods.At the moment water table problems
have been causing salinity as farmers greedily speed up the process
& try for more & more in the name of profit.When they can no longer
yield crops after countless crop rotations & pumping super phosphates
into the soil to keep it alive,the land is deemed useless.
If a mass exodus from meat eating took place it would overburden
existing land & require even more chemicals.

Would vegans survive if an Electromagnetic pulse shut down all
electricity,or a huge natural disater that stops us using machines &
electricity,no more vitamin supplements,you will only get so far
making your own.

I honestly would love to see some URL,s that have scientific
evidence of these vegetarian beliefs,or books.

Anyway I just had spaghetti bolognaise for dinner,mmmmmmmahhhhhhhhhh,
then again..........no!mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmahhhhhhhhhh.hehehehe
While I was thinking about you vegetarians I thought of my mum the
vege,& 20 mins later she rang for a chat,so thanks guys & gals,I
love stirring ya's all up too!hehe I'll probably get a ring from my
sister in japan now I,m thinking of you all again & believe me it's
all positive & happy thoughts I'm sending to you all.

Take care

Mobius

[distant bell]

Aleister Crowley said that one can get almost "hig" from eating alot
of oysters- because they are full of prana.. I have never tried.

I don´t know about the Prana thing- It was more of a question then a statement. I was just playing around with the thought. Anyway - even
someone who eats meat eats a vegetable every now and then don´t they?

I too eat alot of "dead" food, like pasta, bread, ris... But I try to
eat alot of fresh fruit and vegetables to, because it feels healthy.

I know that some magickians use fresh blood to draw energy from to be able to materialize different thought constructins and demons into existens.

I think that If you would cut of the electricity most people would get ALOT of problens with there food. The average city dweller is wery dependent on the industry and infrastructure.

I have relatives who live on the country and grow there own vegetables and foods. It´s not wery hard to grow vegi food.

It is harder to breed cattle.. because you have to have alot of things to feed  it with- and that will be grown on land that could be used to grow vegi food directly.

I have been vegetarian for quite a long time, and my father even longer, and non of us have ever eaten any vitamin pills.. and we are
still alive. I think its a myth that people have to eat all these pills- just a way for the industry to make money.
Good health comes from a varied diet.

[A-M]

ok, Mobius, you want some scientific facts, here they are:

http://www.meatout.org   is a website with many links, one of them being:
http://www.pcrm.org/health/Info_on_Veg_Diets/faq.html
with FAQ's about vegetarian diets

but then, it's all a matter of who you want to believe, because no matter the subject there are always different opinions and opposing research facts to support them......
(as with the existance of more than 4 dimensions.....)  
A-M

[A-M]

Hey everybody, I just realised that I forgot to comment on the vitamine B12 issue.
The question was: if humans are vegetarians, why do they need B12, which is not found in plants.
The answer is that only VEGANS have a problem, i.e. people that don't eat ANY animal products.
VEGETARIANS however have no B12 problem, because it is found in dairy products and eggs!
So, since our ancestors used to climb in trees to pick fruit, they probably also bumped into some nice eggs every once in a while and ate them. (Whether this was a very ethic act is a different subject...)
The body stores B12 for 3 to 5 years so it would not be neccesary to eat eggs all year round.
And probably also an occasional insect slipped through.....As we only need a small amount of B12, this could also have been a good source!
Which makes me happy that I live in a time that I can cook my eggs and buy cheese!  
But then again.........maybe I lived in that time also....??!!  

goodnight to you all, it was nice talking to you!!
A-M

[Mobius]

G,day distant bell & A-M!

Distant bell,I absolutely love my vegies & fruits,grains etc,I love
all foods & have tried meats that some meat eaters wouldn't eat &
some vegies & fruits that vegetarians don't like,I am fortunate
in a way that I will try something first & comment second,even if
it looks bad.I have found there is only a few foods I will not
touch anymore as something in me has said "barf!",so far on my list
is Caviar,anchovies,crocodile,emu,pawpaw,raw sultanas,prunes,dates,
& unfortunately fresh apples.All of these things have made me sick
& subsequent attempts led to the same reaction,so I listen to my
body & what it wants & doesn't want.

Some cultures have an exclusively meat based diet,like mentioned in
the article & have little or no medical problems,personally I could
never do this,not much variety.

A-M thanks for that link,I really do want to hear the other side of
the debate & this site has a fair amount of links on it.I have put it
on my favourites to go back & check out all the links,but so far
in my reading of that site & it's links I didn't see any doctors or
scientists names in there,mainly dieticians.It says on the first
page it is supported by movie stars,buisness,health care providers etc ,not exactly doctors or scientists.I found one doctor but that
was his comments on animal cruelty.I also oppose things like
battery farms & animal experimentation & how giants like Mc Donalds &
KFC are huge exploiters of animals,which sickens me.

This is a good subject & I am learning more things so thanks
all for the input.

Good journeys

Mobius

[distant bell]

Hi Mobius!

My main objective against eateing meat is the cruelty to animlas
in the meat industry. I think it is wery horrible the way people
treat animals- as if they where any other production unit.
And well you and me seem to agree on that point.

I have seen a change in society that last years (at least here
ïn sweden). Vegetarian food is not considered that strange anymore.
Many stores sell "ekolokgicall" meat and diary products - it´s not wery much, but some years ago it didn´t even exist.

So people in general seem to start to think more about these issues, and many people, even if they ar meat eaters start to react on the
ways of the meat industry. This is very good- the only way to change
the market is to make the consumers change.

[Mobius]

Hi distant bell

Totally agree with you when it comes to the meat industry,I might
be an omnivore,but a lot needs to be done with the way we treat
animals,they might gather in herds but the definately don't gather
in tiny metal boxes & have high weight gaining food troughs
stuffed in their faces,it's just wrong & stinks to high heaven!
literally.

Profits & shareholders are all big buisness is concerned about
these days,this mass production & mass fishing of the seas will be
our own demise if we don't slow down dramatically.While I eat meat
I don't as much as the average Aussie & think most people eat way
too much & waste even more.

By the way distant bell,I love the way you substitute "w" for "v"
when it comes to "very"/"wery",makes me picture your accent a lot
easier & sounds like the accent is applied when you spell it like
that,don't change! My stepfather is in Sweden at the moment at
helicopter training school & has done a bit of travel out your way
since being there,says it's beautiful,but a bit cool at the moment,
but maybe thats just his aussie climatized body.hehe

Good journeys all

Mobius