Consciousness..?

[Lezi]

How do I know that my experience of consciousness is not the same as anyone else's. What makes us think that our experiences are all separate and not part of a collective consciousness? Perhaps we are all experiencing the same thing at the same time on different parallel planes. What do you think?

[Stookie]

I think you might be onto something. Maybe at some level, we really are all one. I like the rastafarian term "I and I" which means a lot of things like "me and you" "us" "we" or referring to a group of people. They relate to everyone as "I".

[Bedeekin]

I think it's fair to assume that out consciousness is the same. This is part of my problem I have on AP forums... 'Everyone is different"

This is an oxymoronic statement... especially since we are all interested in this phenomenon because we share common experiences.

If we were all experiencing reality differently we wouldn't be able to relate.

"do people see the same color as me?" does it matter.. as long as they attribute the name 'red' to their version of 'red'.

If I've got the wrong end of the stick about what you mean I'm sorry.

[Summerlander]

Hmmm...what about "unconsciousness" people?

[Lezi]

Exactly! That could explain why we can relate, but on the other hand, not everyone is capable of relating to somebody else. However, reincarnation could explain why we can relate to some things and not others. Good point Bedeekin. I didn't think of that.

[Bedeekin]

thank god... I did post that with the last thought... "am I being relevant?" 

Not everybody is capable of relating...

When I first started writing about my method I would use language that I thought anyone could understand. I took it for granted that people knew what I was talking about... like...

"You should hear buzzing, feel vibrations and the feeling of being pushed down"

and I would get replies like...

"I didn't get the force pushing me down or the buzzing. I did get a feeling I couldn't breath and it was more of an electronic sound than buzzing. I felt something like numbness with pins and needles"

What he replied to me reads exactly the same as what I said he should feel... but in his way... he interpreted it differently.
What I should say is...

"You should hear noises ranging from a light hiss, buzzing, intermittent rumbling, sucking vortex, electronic noise, bleeping, a 747 taking off in your head, babble, whispering, screaming, humming, squeeling, throbbing, pulsating, a crowd, marching, your name being called... you should feel sensations ranging from numbness, pins and needles, nitrous oxide intoxication, body rush, mild electric current to full blown painless electric current, a siezure, swaying or virtigo you may feel like you are being forced down into your bed, a sinking gravity, a lead blanket, like a cow is sitting on your chest or some sort of constriction in the chest area."

I can imagine someone else adding to that list of modalities.

I can read a whole bunch of experiences and link the similarities together... whether they use colorful, belief-centric or bland language to describe it.

[Stookie]

I think it's fair to assume that out consciousness is the same. This is part of my problem I have on AP forums... 'Everyone is different"

This is an oxymoronic statement... especially since we are all interested in this phenomenon because we share common experiences.

If we were all experiencing reality differently we wouldn't be able to relate.

"do people see the same color as me?" does it matter.. as long as they attribute the name 'red' to their version of 'red'.

If I've got the wrong end of the stick about what you mean I'm sorry.

Well, yeah, it's 2 levels or modes of perception of the same thing. Our concepts we gain through life can be different from other peoples concepts, and this a big part of what creates our reality. In physical consciousness, we view everything as separate and outside of ourselves, and how this is interpreted can be very different for different people, but we all search for the similarities so we can all relate and communicate.

This doesn't mean that we can't also be aware of a singular consciousness. I think that can give meaning and clarity to concepts gained through physical perception and live/relate closer to the people around us.

[personalreality]

I think it's fair to assume that out consciousness is the same. This is part of my problem I have on AP forums... 'Everyone is different"

This is an oxymoronic statement... especially since we are all interested in this phenomenon because we share common experiences.

If we were all experiencing reality differently we wouldn't be able to relate.

"do people see the same color as me?" does it matter.. as long as they attribute the name 'red' to their version of 'red'.

If I've got the wrong end of the stick about what you mean I'm sorry.

I'm color-blind, so the red i see is not the same as you.  In fact, I often attribute the name 'red' to what you call 'green' (which just makes me a pathological case, an anomaly to your point).  This has had a big impact on my understanding of how we perceive reality.  Bottom line, you have unique genetics and a lifetime of psychic (as in psyche) conditioning that influences your perception of reality (and who knows about a 'soul' or something similar?).  What you want to assume is that beyond your unique perspective, there is an objective reality that exists independent of your observation (and i'm not talking about quantum physics or the "new thought", which is just neo-new age).  But in truth, can you really prove an objective reality?  I don't believe in one.  For me, objective reality was a side effect of the development of language.  I am reminded of old stories like the tower of babel and the idea that language was a major influence on humanity's "fall from grace".  Or even knowledge of good and evil, knowledge that requires objectivity in which to separate things to label in such a way. 

anyway, just some fun thoughts.

[Bedeekin]

I'm colourblind, so the red i see is not the same as you.  In fact, I often attribute the name 'red' to what you call 'green' (which just makes me a pathological case, an anomaly to your point).  This has had a big impact on my understanding of how we perceive reality.  Bottom line, you have unique genetics and a lifetime of psychic (as in psyche) conditioning that influences your perception of reality (and who knows about a 'soul' or something similar?).  What you want to assume is that beyond your unique perspective, there is an objective reality that exists independent of your observation (and I'm not talking about quantum physics or the "new thought", which is just neo-new age).  But in truth, can you really prove an objective reality?  I don't believe in one.  For me, objective reality was a side effect of the development of language.  I am reminded of old stories like the tower of babel and the idea that language was a major influence on humanity's "fall from grace".  Or even knowledge of good and evil, knowledge that requires objectivity in which to separate things to label in such a way.  

anyway, just some fun thoughts.

I agree...

There is persistent reality that I rely on every day. Its solid reality if anything gives me a sense of satisfaction that it exists and is supremely important.  

If I cut your arm off with a chainsaw... you scream in pain... and I retort "Don't worry, there is no objective reality" I reckon it would be difficult for you to accept my statement on many levels.. and that pain... the horror and shock are all a result of the a very persistent reality.

Your colour blindness is a result of a lack of cone pigments in your retina (you probably totally know this).  whether it be Dichromacy or Anomalous trichromacy it is still effecting physical receptors in your brain... around 1 billion people share the same affliction as you and perceive this particular reality with you. That goes a long way into thinking that as the reality we share... it's pretty persistent.

Why would this effect how you think you perceive reality rather than help you understand and wonder at the mechanisms of the eye? Your brain is receiving the reality that your physically persistent eye is deficient in a cone pigment... like a billion people?

[personalreality]

i can't argue with the reality of losing a limb.  my only retort is that that is how good of a job our brain and mind do at convincing us of the concreteness of our reality. 

it certainly makes me aware of the brilliance of an eyeball and it's connections through the brain, which is what i meant up there ^.

the issue for me is reconciling the abstract with the concrete.  from my studies over the years (particularly in psych and spiritual traditions) it has become apparent to me that the psychology of the individual has a profound impact on the reality we experience.  this is tricky because i don't want to be lumped in with the new age, neo-new age or even buddhists.  but, simply put, our mind creates our reality.  not in some metaphysical sense, but quite literally as i'm sure you're probably aware.  it's the abstract concepts in our mind and memory that turn a collection of energetic vibrations in the form of sensory stimuli into the reality that each of us perceives.  behind the interpretation of our mind, reality is ambiguous and undefined.  it is just energy.  our mind interprets it to be what we call reality.  so the individual psychology has a big impact on the way we see reality.  now i completely understand that on the whole (as far as we know) we see the same things in the world.  but we also share human culture that was developed in it's unique way on the planet earth.  we are extremely earth-biased because this was the birth place of our whole species and all those species that came before us that were required to ultimately produce us (assuming there was no alien intervention or anything, lol).  the history of life on earth penetrates every part of us, body mind and soul.  so the way we see reality is almost entirely dependent on the way our minds evolved on this planet, at this time in space and reality, in this scale and position.  perhaps this is the only way life can spawn, perhaps every inhabited world is so uniquely alien that we wouldn't even recognize it as life.  who knows.

either way, relative to us on earth, we have a common history psychologically.  naturally we have gotten more complex as our cultures split and new ones are born that shape our view of reality in unique ways.  but we still share a common ancestor.  but you don't even have to go back that far.  just go back to say ancient greece and the "foundation" of the modern western world.  starting from there would be sufficient to show how our perception of reality is really dependent on our psychological make-up.  that was where the modern thinking was born.  but if you go to some indigenous tribe that has had little interaction with the western world, their reality is a strange and beautiful world compared to ours.  however, there is still a common ancestor between us so we are still programmed to see the "concreteness" of reality in the same way.  but maybe on a different planet in a different realm, reality would be beyond our comprehension (which is not to imply superior, we just wouldn't be equipped to think like they do).

however, for the sake of argument, if you cut me i bleed and we both know it.  only we know it because our measuring apparatus (our bodies) are nearly identical in the grand scheme of reality.  the same physical body with the same sensory organs, evolved on the same planet and influenced by the same cultural biases over long periods of time.  to me this makes the comparison of our realities (or anyone on earth for that matter) as a means to justify objective reality just bad science.  there isn't really a comparison to be made because relative to the whole of reality, our perceptions are nearly identical.  (mind you, nearly identical in an infinite spectrum is still infinitely different, but in a materialist perspective, the difference is miniscule.)

[Summerlander]

This world is physical, solid, real and can hurt you. It can affect you in terrible and undesirable ways. Period.

[personalreality]

if that makes you feel better, sure.

again, i don't deny the seeming physicality of our reality.  i'm just trying to express a possibility for how and why we see it like we do. 

we're talking about two different things.

[Summerlander]

I know what you mean. I was only winding you up!

[personalreality]

well aware.    

[Bedeekin]

the issue for me is reconciling the abstract with the concrete.  from my studies over the years (particularly in psych and spiritual traditions) it has become apparent to me that the psychology of the individual has a profound impact on the reality we experience.  this is tricky because i don't want to be lumped in with the new age, neo-new age or even buddhists.  but, simply put, our mind creates our reality.  not in some metaphysical sense, but quite literally as i'm sure you're probably aware.  it's the abstract concepts in our mind and memory that turn a collection of energetic vibrations in the form of sensory stimuli into the reality that each of us perceives.  behind the interpretation of our mind, reality is ambiguous and undefined.  it is just energy.  our mind interprets it to be what we call reality.  so the individual psychology has a big impact on the way we see reality.  now i completely understand that on the whole (as far as we know) we see the same things in the world.  but we also share human culture that was developed in it's unique way on the planet earth.  we are extremely earth-biased because this was the birth place of our whole species and all those species that came before us that were required to ultimately produce us (assuming there was no alien intervention or anything, lol).  the history of life on earth penetrates every part of us, body mind and soul.  so the way we see reality is almost entirely dependent on the way our minds evolved on this planet, at this time in space and reality, in this scale and position.  perhaps this is the only way life can spawn, perhaps every inhabited world is so uniquely alien that we wouldn't even recognize it as life.  who knows.

either way, relative to us on earth, we have a common history psychologically.  naturally we have gotten more complex as our cultures split and new ones are born that shape our view of reality in unique ways.  but we still share a common ancestor.  but you don't even have to go back that far.  just go back to say ancient greece and the "foundation" of the modern western world.  starting from there would be sufficient to show how our perception of reality is really dependent on our psychological make-up.  that was where the modern thinking was born.  but if you go to some indigenous tribe that has had little interaction with the western world, their reality is a strange and beautiful world compared to ours.  however, there is still a common ancestor between us so we are still programmed to see the "concreteness" of reality in the same way.  but maybe on a different planet in a different realm, reality would be beyond our comprehension (which is not to imply superior, we just wouldn't be equipped to think like they do).

however, for the sake of argument, if you cut me i bleed and we both know it.  only we know it because our measuring apparatus (our bodies) are nearly identical in the grand scheme of reality.  the same physical body with the same sensory organs, evolved on the same planet and influenced by the same cultural biases over long periods of time.  to me this makes the comparison of our realities (or anyone on earth for that matter) as a means to justify objective reality just bad science.  there isn't really a comparison to be made because relative to the whole of reality, our perceptions are nearly identical.  (mind you, nearly identical in an infinite spectrum is still infinitely different, but in a materialist perspective, the difference is miniscule.)

cool...

I'm rolling with you! 

One thing is certain.

As subtley different as our individual theories may be about consciousness... we all share this amazing ability... we as a small group have a totally different slant on consciousness and reality, compared to the majority of western society.

[Wi11iam]

Bedeekin:  As subtley different as our individual theories may be about consciousness... we all share this amazing ability... we as a small group have a totally different slant on consciousness and reality, compared to the majority of western society.


This is a very good thread topic and very interesting data input.  Obviously then I understand so because it is a subject I have been focussing on and what I am learning about it helps me on many 'levels' and the comments (data input) from 'others' show me that they too are keenly interested.

With this 'totally different slant' + "some agreement on the why's and therefore(s) of consciousness"  in relation to 'a small group' what does this add up to? (=2?)

How can this ability be useful in relation to the shared consciousness in F1, our dominant reality?

Or for that matter, in relation to F3, the 'Astral' reality?

Also, would the 'subtle differences' in the F1, amount to 'walls' in F3, walls which might prevent 'crossover' where the 'small group' could gather, pretty much as they do in this forum.
In relation to the different individuals experiencing a similar reality, and having some purpose within that reality,how 'similar' does the "purpose of gathered consciousness"  have to be for the 'walls' to dissipate?

Internecine

In F1, individuals gather into 'groups' which best exemplify their own 'purpose' and that purpose might be 'to make a lot of money' [including cupidity] (to example) and this is what they support each other in achieving...or in looking after the elderly, or creating laws, or manufacturing weapons, the list goes on....all interacting in the shared reality of F1 Life on Earth, yet also oxymoronically, 'at odds' with itself.

Homogeneity

It is all happening here on Earth, and some groups are opposed to others etc...but groups they are and as groups they achieve there 'desired state' or are sucked up into something else which dissolves their group – transfers the energy of that group into the thing which was able to do so... how can 'a small group' with the ability to Astral Project, affect things in F3 and F1?