Sorry posted this on another site. Felt I needed some down to earth regular talking people to attempt some comments.
Hi Guys,
I checked the forum for loosh and it was only indirectly discussed.
Monroe speaks of PMR being designed to create a commodity called loosh which is partly made from human emotion. Hence the PMR was designed to be as cruel as possible to generate as much emotion as possible.
I have to admit that although I seem to navigate this PMR with very little physical and emotional pain - it doesn't prevent me from seeing what is happening all around me from an individual level to an international level in regard to physical and emotional pain. I am also aware of the potential for physical and emotional pain to come knocking at a moments notice at my door as well - and I have to say I don't like it.
Now I have heard said by some that perhaps some contract was signed whereby I apparently agreed to experiencing PMR to learn something - this creates the illusion that I had a choice of being here - but sometimes my intuition suggests to me that rather I am being kept here against my will (I know if we want to jump levels we can say there is nothing to do and your trying to do is the problem - but I will try and keep it as PMR orientated as possible).
Robert Monroe's books from one perspective illustrates an addictive PMR. In one story we have an alien consciousness obviously fairly knowledgable from his part of the cosmos rushes in to give PMR a go - not really making any agreement to learn anything at all. But as part of the entering the PMR contract has agreed to having all memory of previous knowledge gained from his earlier travels around the universe unaccessable for the PMR experience. This hardly seems very fair considering the addictive nature of this PMR.
The conclusion I have come to at least from Monroes books is the current set up of this PMR seems like a relatively poor design at least in terms of people graduating from the experience. Few graduate, albeit they may be very bright!???
I have come across some other older traditional belief systems that metaphorically say something similiar. The gist of which goes something like this.
A powerful being (K being) somehow created this PMR and NPMR. But that being had its own creator (S being). Even though K made this PMR and NPMR is was a pretty useless place from K's perspective cause it did not have the magic that only S could create. S could create the substance from which consciousness could form. So K went about doing service for S in exchange for S to provide some of the consciousness substance for use in K's PMR and NPMR. So S kinda lent K some consciousness substance but S did not really like the PMR concept too much as S was more attuned to Love and Compassion rather than "Cause and Effect". "Cause and Effect" being the key concept in PMR and NPMR. Not only that but S did not really want to give K consciouness substance but could find no way out of the deal due to the services rendered by K. So begrudgingly consciousness substance was given to K.
Consciousness substance apparently was lent to K as a loan with conditions - conditions which some how leave open the possibility for the withdrawal of consciousness substance from PMR and NPMR. Unfortunately the conditions that allow for the withdrawal of consciousness substance from PMR are so strict that PMR and NPMR doesn't relinquich too much consciousness substance very often. This apparently suits K as K gets a Kick out of PMR and NPMR that it created - but its only a hoot for K when it has consciousness substance embedded in it. So its not in K's interest to have consciousness substance removed from PMR and NPMR.
K has set up teachers in PMR and NPMR who give the illusion of helping the consciousness substance to withdraw itself from PMR and NPMR but in reality K's teachers only teach the consciousness substance to obey K's precious concept of "cause and effect". K's o.k. with this because it makes the PMR and NPMR concept look less cruel to higher beings observing the experiment (beings such as S). When people understand and live by the knowledge of "cause and effect" the PMR and NPMR runs more harmoniously. However this knowledge by itself will not extract the consciousness substance from PMR and NPMR.
Apparently as part of the conditons of loaning consciousness substance, S required that K allow S to send other teachers who could teach the consciousness substance to fully extract itself from PMR and NPMR. K begrudgingly agreed to this.
So you have this folk story of one being in a way having an agenda to keep consciousness substance within PMR and NPMR and another being who thinks PMR and NPMR is a cruel and inefficient learning program who wants to extract the consciousness substance from PMR and use it in a less cruel and more efficient pattern.
The K being is kinda related to what some would call "Universl Mind" where as S is beyond universal mind and apparently really can't be talked about at all using this language or this mind.
I wonder if the K being is the being that likes to harvest loosh from humans so cruelly.
I hear Tom talking about "tough love" in some of his forum comments in regard to the cruel set up of PMR - it kinda of reminds me of something I would imagine the K being saying. Not meaning that Tom condones the cruelty of PMR - even if it is just a Time Space Illusion.
Please not the story is anthropomorphic for understanding but is really related to concepts beyond form.
Sorry to throw in a whole new set of beliefs. I realise it probably is absolutely not constructive at all. I am also aware of such stories being used down through the ages to control and manipulate people's minds.
I have found that this little story tends to cause everyday people to become a little emotional and sometimes aggressive towards me. Its only a story after all?
Anyone wish to comment. I tried to find more info on this loosh theory on the internet with little success. Alot of opinions in regard to whether people thought the concept was good or bad in regard to us learning from the conditions but very little information from people who have direct experience/knowledge of such a setup from travels beyond PMR or NPMR.
I can't help but think of Tom's comments about not answering questions if he feels this information would not be constructive to the beings learning. I have an instinctive feeling that the loosh concept falls into that category for alot of experience travelers beyond PMR and NPMR.
I end with a quote and apology if such a topic is not wanted on this forum.
"There is no such thing as secrecy in a free society!"
- Someone Famous, but not me.
I noticed the same thing after reading near-death stories for a few years. There's this odd pattern of angels telling people they have 'free will', and then immediately constricting them. Whoever is in charge of this planet's incarnation system is very demented.
The most frequent oddity in NDEs is the 'choice to go back to Earth' which you'll find is not really a choice at all. If you could choose whether to stay in a heavenly city or go back to Earth, which would you choose? Well, the angelic spirit will ask "Do you want to return to your body?" and if the person says 'no', the spirit will add a sort of penalty, "But you're needed on Earth" with no explanation as to why, and if the person says 'no' again, the spirit will add something else like "But what will your family do without you?" Usually people give in after two tries, but in one case, the person said 'no' three times and the spirit told him, outright, "If you don't go back now, you'll have to go back later." (an implication that he would be forcibly reincarnated, as his current body was dying)
There is no choice. They play these games a lot. They say human culture has free will - after which they talk about the various restrictions they've placed on humans (a planetary lock-in cutting us off from the galaxy, literally a prison planet) and how most of human history was manipulated by them in some way, like we're bacteria on a big petri dish. Often, they give these two conflicting stories within a few sentences of each other.
And then they talk about your 'great purpose for being alive'. No mention of what that purpose is.
I don't think it's the entire universe, but just this galaxy we live in. Every time someone gains control over life systems or incarnation cycles, they use it for really demented purposes
If we compare humans to other species like chicken or cows. In a way we could be considered there gods. How do we treat them. We pretty much harvest them.
I was wondering if it isn't the human ego that gets in the way of the possible understanding that beings that are in a position to call themselves human Gods don't really care for us in the same light our ego chooses to believe. Perhaps with them we are just objects to be harvested.
I read alot of the out of body books. And one of the things that never seems to be answered properly is our purpose. I noticed you mentioned it in your reply.
The first thing that comes to mind is what could a human learn in a physical world thats worth anything in a non physical world.
The key learning scenarios in the physical are related to physical pain (the pain of hunger being very poignant) and the need to kill other beings (animals and humans indirectly) to relieve themselves of that pain.
So lets imagine being in the Non Physical World - you don't have any pain from hunger, so everything you learnt about how to hunt and compete (fairly or unfairly) for food is of no consequence.
And I wager that if you did not need to eat and you did not feel the pain of cold weather (the elements etc.) - i.e. you felt no physical pain - I can't imagine too many people finding any good reasons to go to war and kill each other?? So all that killing you learnt about from your leaders would be of no real use to you in the Non Physical World either?
So really what purpose is there to experience this. Non of the books have really given a genuinely believeable answer.
They talk about learning to love - but humans to me already appear very loving. Its just that they are put into extremely painful situations that any other being from anywhere in the galaxy (with the same capacities as a human) would put aside love for survival killing. Humans are neither good nor bad they are what their surroundings force them to be.
I am convinced learning can be done without the need for physical pain. The obvious way is by using your creative ability to imagine the outcomes of decisions.
Loved your reply zareste.
I am very much alone with these kind of thoughts in the non-cyber world.
I received a private email from another person regarding the above. This person pointed out a book by David Benatar called "Better to not have been". I have not read it but the person does a summary of its contents for me. I will put it below it is a little long but I found it very interesting as it challenges the human ego in regard to its right to bring children into a world that is really heavily biased towards suffering. It seems that it really is the human desire to feel ethical and special will not allow it to contemplate such possible truths.
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Hello. I have just read your post. I have been fairly surprised to read something so similar to my own view of life, where coming into existence is always a harm, since it offers no benefit (what we label "good" are just needs that are created upon coming here) in exchange for lots of pain inherent to a biology design that is obviously biased towards pain (a very fragile physical body that, with aging, is more and more prone towards a very big set of pain producing illnesses). You may have heard about David Benatar's book "Better to never have been: the harm of coming into existence". It approaches this issue from a PMR perspective and gives a very thoughtful analysis that concludes that bringing others into existence is always a cruelty.
I am not asserting that this is what you imply in your post, but I have found it surprisingly similar to my own view of life. And, as you say, when you begin to talk to people about this they almost always get angry: their "not wanting this life to be a usefulness cruelty that's best to avoid, or exit out of altogether" leads them to bias their opinion towards their need; in short, they have no good argument to back up their opinion that bringing others into existence isn't bad for them, so they resort to "ad hominem" attacks (i.e. "you view life like that because you're not happy").
My reasoning comes from a PMR perspective. I cannot speak about NPMR because I am not sentient there, so I can tell you how I view it from here using logic.
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realitycorrodes: I am glad to find someone that is open at least to considering the possibility of us not being that special and just perhaps batteries as they suggested in the matrix movie.
quamta: Not only have I considered such a thing as a possibility, but it's also been one of the main principles supporting my uncommon a-la-Benatar ethics. However, I have always started from the assumption that PMR is the only (proven) reality and, from there, I have derived everything else (that bringing others into life by reproduction is morally wrong an all that). I found Benatar's book much later and was absolutely astonished to see how similar it was to what I had been thinking, kind of like it had been written by me. Although I discovered Robert Monroe's books a few years ago and even had a few semi-lucid brief OOBEs, the idea of our PMR not being a fundamental reality was not so seriously considered, so no changes in my ethics were introduced. Only recently, after reading MBT and participating in this discussion group, have I begun pondering alternatives. It's interesting to note that, even starting from the assumption that we are existant before coming into PMR, I tend to maintain my reticence about viewing life here as a desirable outcome. I have even considered the benefits of existing in any reality frame versus non-existence. I have been trying to discuss it in this thread but quitted the discussion because I felt it would lead nowhere. Nonetheless you may be interested in reading it because it is related to what we are talking about right now:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2858&p=4720#p4720
realitycorrodes: I have been searching for the truth for a long time and I find my questions upset people. I carry many scars from searching for the truth.
quamta: I resonate with that. I have reached the point where I have put all this into the "taboo" category in order to avoid the depressing feeling I have had to endure most of the times I have tried to make people understand the concept of "better to never have been". So far, I have been absolutely unsuccesful most of the times. But, look on the bright side, if you read Benatar's book you will improve your verbal fight skills in that department and, with a little practice, you could sort of reverse the situation and know how to put most people in a situation where they realize they have no rational arguments to refute your thesis. Then, they will resort to the "not everything is rational, intuition is more important" or similar fallacies... don't take them too personal, it's just that their ego is cornered by the irrefutability of your arguments and they are too adamant to concede you are probably right. Of course, I have to admit that all this "verbal judo" instruction is absolutely egotic in nature and it's up against what MBT dictates for entropy reduction but, hey, we are to remain skeptical and not adhere to any kind of dogma! So the ego thing must not necessaritly be supressed if one is able to use it profitably (in order to feel better, for instance), nor are MBT postulates to be accepted if they don't resonate with one's own feelings, experience and data.
That said, not everybody would be cornered by Benatar's arguments. For instance, both Campbell and Monroe would be very effective at blocking that kind of logic by stating that it starts from the fallacious premise that PMR is all there is to us. They deserve all my respect. Now, let's be honest, that is not the situation that happens when one speaks about this with most people (the ones that get upset and create scars, as you say, with their lack of understanding): for all they care, it (whether or not this is the only fundamental reality) doesn't matter! They will just vehemently assert that "Coming into this life is okay and there is nothing wrong about it. Don't be so negative, there are many good things in life. Period" and will refuse to broaden their perspective. They have chosen a conclusion (that coming into life is okay) before logically trying to find an answer and that's why it will almost always be impossible to make them reason. Their pre-chosen conclusion is most likely biased by at least one (probably more) of the following:
1) They are predetermined to supress any kind of feeling that might put to an end the hedonic binge they live up to, which needs a "suffering doesn't exist" illusion in order to survive. If you demonstrate that coming into life is always a harm, they will almost instinctively block such information so to preserve their hedonic feelings and avoid a probable depression. This is not bad in itself, since not a lot of good outcomes can come from feeling depressed, but it begins to be bad when they need to block all kind of logic and reason in order to avoid such depression.
2) They have already had children and accepting that bringing others into this life is always a harm would put them into a very uncomfortable position. Their morality, which they always thought to be correct (i.e. "there exist some people who harm others, but not me, I have always been one of the 'good guys' and I can feel proud and guiltless, for I have never seriously harmed anybody"), would be questioned and would probably create more guilt than they are ready to accept. However, denial and self-delusion don't seem to be very desirable attitudes from my viewpoint and the most appropriate attitude would be that of accepting that what's done is done and there's no point in torturing oneself with useless guilty feelings: better to broaden one's knowledge with the new understanding than to continue to err on the side of delusion.
3) They plan to have children in the short/mid/long term future and the acceptance of the conclusion that bringing them into this life might be morally abhorrent would lead them to a "either I have them anyway - giving up my ethics about not harming others - or I refuse to have them altogether, thereby renouncing happiness". Solution: selfish denial in order to be able to maintain an "I am an ethic person" illusion while doing what they have always needed (i.e. being parents) at the same time. Not to be mysogynistic here but women are specially proficient at this: they would do anything to get away with the fulfillment of their reproductive needs, even if it implies harming others (their children, by bringing them into life), creating scars in those that want them to see a bigger picture, giving up their ability to use logic and reason and resorting to a fallacious "I am not rational, I am intuitive" attitude instead, etc. The end justifies the means (whatever they may be) for them.
On the other hand, justifying the suffering in this life by saying that "that's the way ecosystems are made" and things like that doesn't refute an iota the idea that bringing others here is wrong. If ecosystems are designed that way and that is part and parcel of life, all the more reason to conclude that life (life here, at least) is not good. Why does it have to be accepted just because the system decided to design it that way? Should we have to accept it just because a system (or entity, or whatever) profits from its cruel design? Moreover, to say that it's humans who create suffering and not the design itself is a mislead rambling to say the least! Human beings are capable of high levels of cruelty, but suffering and cruelty go way beyond humans' actions, since we, as most animals, are biologically designed for suffering and, cruel or not, human beings (as most animals) would always have to endure high levels of cruelty, whether caused by a virus, a natural disaster, a terminal illness, etc. The possibilities are countless and resorting to neglect that by saying that "it's all humans' fault" is plain incorrect. Moreover, as you said, even if humans were hypothetically to blame for all kinds of suffering and cruelty here, that wouldn't justify (or make less harmful) putting an entity here, since he/she/it will have to suffer regardless of who's to blame for such suffering and avoiding the situation (rather than finding out who's to blame) should be the priority. As you say, one can even draw the analogy between bringing someone here and putting someone in a river full of ungry piranhas: yeah, it's the piranhas fault, not the river's fault, but the outcome of putting someone into the river is going to be suffering anyway, so it's going to be unethical, whether the piranhas' or the river's fault.
realitycorrodes: I have to say I am probably not clever enough to be on this forum as Tom's work is very intellectual and academic - I am afraid I don't understand a word of anything that people are talking about - but somehow I do enjoy reading it even without understanding.
quamta: Having begun to question the ethics of existence automatically puts you into the clever category from my point of view. The fact that you don't understand many of the things spoken here doesn't tell anything about your level of cleverness. It's probably because a lot of acronyms are being used, and sometimes it takes a lot of time to get familiar with them, that you feel confused. Moreover, don't assume that all the posts here are valuable, there's also a lot of trash (mine included) that stems from a confused state and/or a compulsion for posting. To make a long story short: you probably don't understand many posts not because the concepts are difficult but because they don't make any gosh darn sense in themselves.
realitycorrodes: My intuition keeps alerting me to something not being quite right about everything - including all forms of spirituality. I could of course be paranoid.
That's the idea behind the Matrix triology, way better conveyed in the Animatrix movie. Paranoia is good if it doesn't make you lead a very unhappy life, since it's commonly the precursor of higher levels of understanding and intelligence, not available to most people. However, one also has to be careful with this and I echo Campbell's words here: "you are overanalyzing and overintellectualizing until you confuse yourself". Of course, the boundary between overanalyzing and "not analyzing deep enough" is so blurry and difficult to quantify that I wouldn't know where to put it.
realitycorrodes: I guess that perhaps the truth cannot be known in PMR - afterall PMR is just an illusion so that would mean that at best we could only acheive
quamta: That's a plausible possibility. In fact, even all the experience that Tom has been able to put together might be part of an a-la-Matrix computer simulation, that creates OOBEs, NPMR, MBT,etc. as part of the "game". That is, you could have an OOBE and verify you have been out of your body a thousand times, but you could not rule out the possibility that it all is part of an illusion - a simulated reality - and that the real you resides elsewhere, with his perception blocked. However, what's the probability of this? One can never tell for sure. Nonetheless, take into account that, when one begins accepting the possibility that everything is part of a fake reality (including one's OOBEs, one's verification processes, one's trips to NPMR and, in short, anything one can imagine) you cannot say for sure anything anymore: even PMR pain and all those terrible things might be fake. Would it be wise to neglect this possibility of everything being fake for the sake of consistency?
realitycorrodes: If given the choice I would personally have remained in a place without Physical pain and without the need to eat other beings.
quamta: The question is: have we really been given the choice as Seth (channeled through Jane Roberts) and Campbell assert? If so, have we really taken an informed decision or have we been fooled into believing that the trip was going to be fun and risk-free?
I have always thought that I was forced to come here by means of a not-chosen-by-me pregnancy that lead to the biologycal design of this physical body I inhabit, but that was before considering the possibility that I might have existed before birth. Now, if I start from the assumption that I existed before birth, I wouldn't know what to tell you. It strikes me as really "not-like-me" the fact that I had voluntarily chosen to come here, since the risk/benefit ratio doesn't seem too optimal.
realitycorrodes: William Buhlman says something like, most beings in NPMR refuse to experience PMR as it is too hard (I think cruel is better word). He goes on to say there is also not enough guidance. I don't think there are too many people who were truly given an informed decision about the nature of this PMR would have gotten involved.
quamta: I have read a William Buhlman interview, it looks pretty interesting. Again, the more one can broaden one's knowledge from different sources (Seth, Monroe, Buhlman, Campbell,...) the more skillful one will get to tell truth from dogma.
realitycorrodes: The Monroe series then goes on to elude to a better earth experience in the year 3000 as if they knew it wasn't a very good design themselves in the beginning. I am sure you know all this.
quamta: Yes, I remember this. If I am not mistaken, Tom said that Monroe had probably queried one of the probable future (or even unactualized past) databases and that the event was pretty unlikely (because one cannot accurately predict a so distant future). In any case, it's Tom's opinion versus Monroe's experience. Who's right? Now, some people tend to consider Tom as the number one reference when it comes to OOBE related phenomena, but before MBT they probably had Monroe as a reference, and so on. Reality feels very slippery after all, one doesn't know when the reference one is following is right or wrong. Can we ever get to know?
realitycorrodes: sorry for the ramble - I've been very much in "stream of consciousness" mode in this reply rather than "strict censored" mode for forum questions. I rely on your intuition to feel for what I am trying to communicate rather than perhaps taking too personally my tired daydreams - so to burden you with that responsibility.
quamta: Getting out of the "strict censored" mode and speaking one's mind is good from my point of view. Repressing who we really are and what we really think, as our societies want us to do with their "herd thinking" ideal promoted by mass media, is bad for our mental and spirit health, so the "stream of consciousness" mode is welcomed as far as I am concerned. :)
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Just to add the great quote form the matrix movie which also suggests we are just batteries for other more powerful entities.
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Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
Neo: You could say that.
Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
Neo: No.
Morpheus: Why not?
Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you
to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Neo: The Matrix.
Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
Neo: Yes.
Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
Morpheus: [to Neo who is choosing the red pill] Remember... all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.
I wonder what will happen when the universe collapses and there is no more spacetime to constrict us?
I am with Socrates "the only thing I know is I know nothing".
But as my ego wants to hazard a guess...it would say something like this
best be prepared for absolute and total surrender...something the ego would imagine to be
like being completely wiped out of existence as it knows it...the more it tries to maintain the concept of control within a limited illusionary boundary of physical matter skin the greater the time spent in the
transition, complete the transitions frighten uncertainties about a future that never even existed. Best to let go quickly with no expectations perhaps.
As I think it was mentioned in Jacobs Ladder (the movie)...if you've made peace with the world then you see angels instead of demons.
I don't know just rambling.
Life is a Beautiful Mystery. Or an Evil Deception. Depends on the day I'm having. Today is a beautiful mystery. Friday was evil deception.
Hee hee I hear you Stookie.
I'm alright Jack. Who cares about anyone else... so long as I am having a beautiful mystery. :-D
Often when life is a beautiful mystery I can still sense some of my brothers and sisters on this planet
starving to death - tends to take the mystery out of it a little bit for me! Ignorance is bliss as they say.
It's a funny world this one :evil:
I find myself neither experiencing a
beautiful mystery or an evil deception, just a nothingness of sorts. But hey thats just me - wouldn't wish
it on anyone else.
"To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower
To hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour"
William Blake having one of his more mysterious days...I guess!! :-o
Do you think it's possible for a person to choose or change their perception of reality?
It seems most people live in denial - this is most likely due to them having choosen a particular perception of reality that suits their ego.
In my experience I have to say I have tested that maintaining a positive (balanced) energy/perception regardless of the apparent good or bad nature of my immediate (nearby) reality interacting with me tends to attract relatively better outcomes for me in terms of less pain and more material benefits. However it does not affect the reality of others who are suffering at a greater distance from me and because I am not prepared to restrict my awareness to just myself and my immediate (nearby) reality I can't be unrealistic about the hardships on this dimension and therefore is psychological beauty (or lack of).
Somehow I feel connected to everything on this dimension which makes me care about the harm done to others. Not that I am a saint - all I do is remain open and aware to it while I notice others shut it out and run the latest denial software for their convenience - it does not appear to be a bad thing to do I guess so long as you are aware that you have choosen it - but most have no awareness of what they are choosing or why.
I personally choose to talk to people honestly about the reality of this dimension as registered by most people not the reality of the minority group living in denial due to their choosen perceptions.
My man John Donne captures this connected feeling I believe
No man is an island
No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
John Donne
Buddhism was made for this discussion!
1) There is suffering
2) There is a cause of suffering
3) There is a way out of suffering
4) The Buddha said he found #3
In a nutshell, it's how we experience the world, rather than the world itself, that leads to our suffering. Our experience of the world is based on one central idea in our minds: that there is a self. All phenomena are measured against the self, whether they are pleasant or unpleasant, mine or other. The less we identify with phenomena as being self, the less we suffer.
I quite like the little I have come across of Buddhism.
I find Buddhism is excellent for reducing psychological suffering.
I myself have very little psychological suffering - probably due to meditation - stilling the mind -
which I know is a practice encouraged in Buddhism.
However, the real source of human suffering is physical.
There are no too many Buddhist monks while meditating can remain motionless and balanced
mentally (without physical pain) while someone swings an iron bar hard into their face or for that matter have a face that is unmarked / undented / bleeding / broken after it.
I realise my example is extreme, but I wanted to underscore that the root of suffering comes through
the physical not the mental - although I am well aware that most people create so much mental suffering
they had best work on that first as it is easier to overcome than the physical suffering.
I have been in the presence of a dzogchen master who said the real test for seeing if someone is really genuinely enlightened is to see if they flinch when someone takes a burning match to their skin. He was trying to put some perspective on all those people who like to claim they are enlightened.
This dzogchen master is quite well respected in the tibetan Buddhist tradition and yet he comes in on a wheel chair these days - by his own standard of testing enlightenment one has to wonder how enlightened he is if he has not been able to overcome the illusion of a weak old frail body?
Alot of talk - but very few people who can demonstrate the mastering of physical suffering.
I have never met anyone personally who can overcome physical suffering.
Anyone can overcome mental suffering if they really want to - its just that many don't really want to - they enjoy it.
In regard to the disintegration of the self and the realisation of oneness, the void, the emptiness - sounds appealing - nice trick. Most people seem to get that as a one of. Or they have to sit down to meditate to acheive it. I have not met anyone who has it 24 hours.
Question arises - is this void a holographic playpen for your mind within the astral or is it as Buddhist like to say the underlying substrate for everything.
I put it to you that it is quite probably that the powers that be can create any illusion for us, even the illusion of experiencing the underlying substrate for everything.
I myself don't seek enlightenment or god whatever that may be?? I merely want to master physical suffering - that is something that can be easily demonstrated - unlike the subjective experiences of enlightenment or the astral realm - its easy to talk mental enlightenment but difficult to demonstrate real physical enlightenment.
Ever wonder why traditional religions go on and on about never showing miracles - things like being able to withstand a burning flame - is it perhaps they are laying the ground work for an excuse not to have to demonstrate any real ability in the real of enlightenment - obviously this would reveal them for what they are "frauds" at best "astral frauds".
"There is only one, its name is truth!"
I agree, physical suffering sucks. It seems we're born to die. What do you propose?
In the movie pulp fiction just before they go in to talk to a bunch of young kids who stole Marcel Wallace's money. They're talking about foot massages - I mean two tough guys talking about foot massages...who'd have thought? Then they stop just before they go in. Samual Jackson turns to Travolta and says something like:
"Let's get into character!"
What does this mean. It means they were having an honest conversation before were they were honestly trying to get to the truth behind the meaning of foot massages.
But now they are going to have to put their real identities away and pretend to be big bad gangsters for the unsuspecting frat boys.
Its egotistical pretending to be a holy man.
I don't mind ego so much as it is the nature of this dimension.
I do prefer to talk to people who are aware of their ego though.
I have noticed there are two broad categories of people in this world.
These two types of people reveal themselves often in the below scenario by their behavior.
Scenario
While having a conversation it becomes apparent that what one person has been saying is incorrect.
Behaviour type one person
Continues to pursue the illogical argument of their incorrect stand point because their ego refuses to dis attach from the physical chemical reinforcement it gets from feeling it is correct.
Behaviour type two person
Admits they were wrong and rejoices in the fact their colleague has enlightened them. For this person the truth is more important than the addiction to the happy hormones released by their ego.
It's easy to pretend to be a holy wise man. Just look around at all the cults based around people pretending to be masters. Ignorance of not realizing you shouldn't be pretending to be a master is really no excuse! But what can you do "ignorance is ignorance".
So when someone comes not dressed up in a character and honestly speaks about getting to the truth behind things ...Is wise to pretend to be a holy wise person when your not in such a discussion!
or
Is it better to just be honest and reveal who you really are - insecurities and all?
------------------------------------------------------------
What can you do to avoid suffering?
To be honest...like I said I am with Socrates..."All I know is I know nothing!"
I actually came here to see if someone could help me. I was looking for fierce warriors of truth. It seems they are as rare here as anywhere else in this dimension...sorry to say :oops:
My ego will hazard a guess to the question of avoiding suffering.
1. Observe the physical body. Understand how to manipulate its hormones and neurotransmitters to maintain its physical health which will in turn provide mental health. This is by food and exercise. The only real billionaire in this dimension is the human who is free of physical suffering.
2. Observe the mind. Understand its motivations towards erroneous behavior patterns which have been chemically reinforced due to society's brainwashing (peer pressure or black magician advertising) and due to perhaps learned erroneous behavior from past experience (in similar holographic environments) recorded and saved for later use in other holographic environments like this one now.
3. Observe when your mind departs from the logical truth in theoretical discussions in order to maintain its attachment to happy hormones (which release when people think they are right). Follow the truth at all costs even if it means you are ostracized from your friends, from society, from your ego.
4. Observe that there is really no absolute right and wrong!
5. Observe that there is really nothing you can do!
6. Observe
Peace
"On the other side we will walk hand in hand!"
Quote from: realitycorrodes on April 23, 2009, 18:31:09
3. Observe when your mind departs from the logical truth in theoretical discussions in order to maintain its attachment to happy hormones (which release when people think they are right). Follow the truth at all costs even if it means you are ostracized from your friends, from society, from your ego.
This is what I need to work on. I have been hurt so many times and conditioned to not give up my beliefs, but not speak of them openly. I watch and listen and am aware. This is positive and negative. I need to find the balance between Truth and Awareness through Observance.
:Love Light and Peace:
Corie
I've been studying this for quite some time and haven't once seen another person who noticed malevolence in our incarnation system. Glad I found you.
It's pretty complicated. Two different people could have incarnated in entirely different ways. Some spirits started as plasma collections in deep space who drifted to this planet, some incarnated out of Earth's consciousness systems, some incarnate in closed groups (repeatedly incarnating into one family line, for example), some are just living as various animals, some were sent by off-world cultures. It's these foreign cultures that complicate things. They can send spirits for a number of reasons - sometimes to study Earth and update their data, sometimes as a war tactic against humanity or against an enemy present on Earth.
There we have problems. As Earth gets more attention from the outer galaxy, we have more cultures wanting to get involved - more types of consciousness entering Earth's fields, wanting to use the planet for their purposes, altering it to suit them, claiming territory, setting up bases, bringing all their cultural conflicts to the planet, and, most pertinent, getting involved in incarnation cycles. Unfortunately we have a rather conflicted galaxy, and this planet is becoming a part of it.
So you might see the reason for these unwanted incarnations. A lot of these cultures are predatory and they just grab any spirit they find and place it on a planet for whatever reason they have in mind. They've just become desperate to keep their way of life. Some do this to their own spirits. A lot of these cultures don't even think to ask permission - they just operate on the idea that you owe it to them, or that they know better and don't need to listen.
These cultures end up getting in wars and are eventually killed by the galaxy to restore a bit of order.
The reason our memory goes missing is, simply, the human mind has trouble reading it. When you place a consciousness in a human form, it can only function as well as that human form. So, you could be a million years old and still be a doofus on Earth because your human mind can only read fragments of that memory. In order to bring out your full potential, you have to hack around with the system a little, as the folks here are trying to do.
As for suffering, you're quite right. In fact when someone tells you to 'think positive' when there are problems, they're saying it's a good thing, and revealing that they're a part of the problem and certainly not a victim of it.
The sight of old age, sickness, and death is what lead the Buddha to seek enlightenment. The Buddha himself suffered from back pain and died of dysentery. We cannot escape physical suffering, it is the nature of physical existence; all that exists is impermanent and subject to dissolution. We do have some choice, however, in how we react to conditions of the body.
Emptiness in Buddhism, as I understand it (which might be incorrect!), is not so much a state of mind or consciousness as it is a condition. All things are inherently empty because they lack an essential core, they depend on other things for their existence. The realization of this condition does lead to a change in perception.
You can't escape pain but you can choose to prevent it, which I think is a step up over living with it forever and warping your mind to accompany it.
Quote from: The Present Moment on April 24, 2009, 01:15:54
The sight of old age, sickness, and death is what lead the Buddha to seek enlightenment. The Buddha himself suffered from back pain and died of dysentery. We cannot escape physical suffering, it is the nature of physical existence; all that exists is impermanent and subject to dissolution. We do have some choice, however, in how we react to conditions of the body.
Emptiness in Buddhism, as I understand it (which might be incorrect!), is not so much a state of mind or consciousness as it is a condition. All things are inherently empty because they lack an essential core, they depend on other things for their existence. The realization of this condition does lead to a change in perception.
Sounds like Michael Tsarion's psychic vampirism to me.
http://psychicvampirism.com/
You might be onto something there. :)
:Love Light and Peace:
Corie
Quote from: phantoms_rose on April 24, 2009, 10:28:20
Sounds like Michael Tsarion's psychic vampirism to me.
http://psychicvampirism.com/
You might be onto something there. :)
:Love Light and Peace:
Corie
Huh? I don't follow how this is related.
I just came back from seeing David Icke in Melbourne a couple of days ago. I have to say I like the man - if only because he has the guts to stand up and put forward another point of view - and boy did he take some flak over it - freedom of speech is a right worth supporting. He did not focus to much on the reptilians this time but more on spirituality - which was very inspiring.
I hinted at this stuff with the philadelphia project in some other thread but was told we don't have time to muck around with real time conspiracy - which I took as a valid point - but at the end of the day one can't meditate all day - and instead of watching the tragic lantern (TV) sport and game shows!!! or mucking around with computers and networks!!! - I personally find alternative views of history quite stimulating and dare I say enlightening.
If you do the research there is as much evidence for these reptilian characters as for any other biblical history feed to us by our TV propaganda machine. Zecharia Sitchin and the Sumerian Tablets are quite revealing!
Four of my personal friends have seen UFO's - they don't know each other and they live in different countries: Australia, South Africa and good old "Austin" texas!! One of my other friends is psychic and has vision in a frequency spectrum whereby he reckon's he saw a couple of greys (not all psychic have access to this spectrum) - apparently they can move in and out of the astral and the physical - the plot thickens!! Very sensationalistic but hey why believe this illusion is anymore real than the alien one.
Also you can check out the "rods" - apparently pretty much anyone can catch these UFO's on camera these days. All you need is two camera's filming the same piece of sky but one of the camera's is in Infrared MOde. Then I am not too sure what you do but maybe you superimpose them over each other and bingo there are these super fast moving objects like rockets flying out over oceans etc - they seem to be everywhere.
Monroe was given an experience in his trilogy where by he was shown alot of alien ships focusing on this planet due to some (what I believe) is some astronomical event about to hit the planet. Maybe the end of a 26000 year cycle (precession of the equinox) 2012, a photon belt coming our way or something physically real!! Not something they want the public to know about - sheep are easily frightened!! See they don't practice dying while living! Also I personally believe Monroe and perhaps Tom (I have no proof though - damn!) was helped out of their bodies by aliens in the beginning - which brings up the question what's an alien and what's a spiritual being?
Just to be a little controversial. I have to say I am a little suspicious of Tom working for the NASA ( I believe Ted said the Dod - Department of Defense??). It's not something that generates much respect in my book (Sorry Tom but that's my limitation - I still like you - I think) - I remember turning to my Father when I was 10 years old and saying to him "if people refuse to join armies how could there ever be any wars!" - I guess I was just being naive. By the way Tesla publicly announced to two newspapers that he was in contact with UFO's - so I am told - chinese whispers maybe or maybe not!!
Sorry guys! My ego likes to stir the pot. Besides I was never into patriotism - divide and conquer was never my moto!
I am remember watching some youtube thing about atlantis. In it they suggested that Tibetan Buddhism was related to some alien culture from out of space. I think it took its research from Erich Von Daniken (Chariots Of The Gods) - I know most people will think these guys are crack pots but there are so many of them these days who knows - best to keep an open mind. In the youtube thing they mentioned that the Tibetan buddhists ended up separating into two different camps the red caps and the yellow caps - each related to a different alien philosophy - I am not sure - but things are not what they seem.
I can't help but notice the Sirian link. The pyraminds I think are lined up with the sirius star system. One of my friends is from the Ukraine and had an encounter with a stranger that came up to her and said "Do you recognise me?" She of course said no. He then said "You are from Sirius B, in time you will remember!"
Another friend of mine who was psychic at birth and used to do 8 hours meditation straight in one sitting without moving! told me that one of her inner experiences involved visiting the star Sirius. All hearsay but there are so many.
Quote from: The Present Moment on April 24, 2009, 12:27:46
Huh? I don't follow how this is related.
Emptiness is a condition of the Soul. As M.Tsarion writes our world is full of empty shells of people who have no sense of identity outside of what they own/collect and what others (who fit in societal molds) tell them they are. Thus, they eternally seek outside stimuli to feed their ego in a neverending cycle.
I used to date a person like this for 3 years. My personality type is a creative. I do not require possessions or others to validate who I am. I have a strong sense of identity and I express that through what I create.
To these empty shells, people like I are seen as a goldmine of psychic energy and as a threat. On a subconscious level, they feel they must entrap us to feed off of our energy (in my case it was by being suspended in a perpetual anxious/misery state) while at the same time trying to shatter us to make us like they are.
It is a condition that can be overcome, but it is 1 million times more addicting than heroin. To try to bring empty shells back and help them foster a sense of purpose is exhausting. To have them relapse, heartbreaking.
reality- yes, Ive done extensive outside research on the nature of our reality and the natures of those who have been intimately involved with it. I have had extensive visions and experiences of the Watchers.
By far the best thing Ive come across is the Book of Seniors by Benjamin Rowe, a series of visions having to do with Hermetic magick. Quite an eye opener, I'll tell you that much.
:Love Light and Peace:
Corie
Quote from: phantoms_rose on April 24, 2009, 21:21:40
Emptiness is a condition of the Soul. As M.Tsarion writes our world is full of empty shells of people who have no sense of identity outside of what they own/collect and what others (who fit in societal molds) tell them they are. Thus, they eternally seek outside stimuli to feed their ego in a neverending cycle.
Sorry, I left that definition a little too open. They mean
everything is empty: the soul, thoughts, a physical object, etc. For instance, the body depends on food, air, and water to sustain itself; the atoms that compose it all came from elsewhere; and it is continuously shedding dead cells and waste products back into the Earth. If a body depends so heavily on other things for its existence, then we can't say that it exists by itself. All impermanent, changing phenomena (such as a body) are likewise essentially empty of any real substance.
Edit: Wikipedia has a page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81) on this topic that goes into much more detail.
Zaresta thanks for the intersting information about alien influences. Just wondering does this knowledge come from your direct experience or from other sources such as books or web sites?
It they come from books or web sites I was wondering if you would share some of the titles of the books or the url addresses. I am very interested in alien intervention on this planet - especially in regard to their use of religion and philosophical beliefs to control our minds.
It's a LOT of sources, mostly first-hand accounts like NDEs and interactions with humanoids. People in these accounts didn't always know what was going on, but knew what they saw and heard. I read their stories and looked for consistencies, and also considered scientific data. The sources are so numerous I can't really name any.
I may just make a web page for all the information I've gathered.