Monetary system and Spirituality

[James S]

For the type of culture that any of us here on the internet live in the two must be balanced. I would not want to have reached a state of enlightenment and be living on the street scrounging for food, nor would I wish to be filthy rich and have no hope of a life or world beyond this one.

For those lucky enough to live in cultures that do not require money, spirituality often occupies a far greater ammount of their time. I think we see enough of the reverse of this each day in the media.

James.

[bomohwkl]

Money is not evil by itself but the accumulation of money and with the goal of making profit are themselves driving our earth into catastrophe .Just look at the world biggest economic engine,the USA.
No one on the earth would like the economy to has a zero growth or even recession. To has growth, consumers has to spend more (and those the natural resources)or the number of people buying the products increases (require increase of human population).If the population is stagnant and the people are buying the same amount of products, there wouldnt be any growth. People come up with suistable development,it only reduces the severity of the problem but fundamentally, economy has to grow.
In a barter system, the accumulation of wealth becomes irrevelant. We tend to get what is NECESSARY rather than what is DESIRED.Individual gains more freedom and independence. In monetary system, we give away such independence and freedom. Worst still, we are being controlled by the financial institutions like puppets. For the wise one, money is a way of comfort, for others, it is a way to gain power over people.

I am not an economist but it is just my humble observation of the way economy works

[jilola]

Money is like fire, a good servant but a terrible master.
Whether one has it or not should have no effect on one's spirituality or life choices. It's a tool, nothing more.
When money and possessions become a value unto themselves one is in danger of losing the clue so to speak. Many don't even notice this, most don't care.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind having loads of it....

2cents & L&L
jouni

[bomohwkl]

The great Thaora once said, "The greatest danger concerns 'materialism'. The people of your planet seek money - to some it's a means of attaining power; to others it's a means to acquire drugs, (another curse) yet to others, it's a way of possessing more than their neighbours possess
If a businessman owns a large store he then wants a second, then a third. If he commands a small empire, he wants to increase it. If an ordinary man owns a house in which he could live happily with his family, he wants a larger one or to own a second one, then a third...
Why this folly? Besides, a man will die and have to abandon all he has amassed. Perhaps his children will squander his legacy and his grandchildren will live in poverty? His whole life will have been preoccupied with purely material concerns, with insufficient time allowed for matters of the spirit. Others with money turn to drugs in their endeavour to procure an artificial paradise and these people pay more dearly than do the others."
'You have understood that the Astral body is a body which inhabits your physical body recalling and noting all the understanding acquired during the course of its various lives.
'It can only be enriched spiritually - not materially. The physical body is merely a vehicle which, in most cases we abandon when we die."
Quote from Thiaoouba Prophecy
http://www.thiaoouba.com/ebook.htm
Chapter 6

[Tayesin]

Hi Folks.  
This is one of my pet topics for the past couple of years.  It became that way from studying the 'new-age movement'.  I was saddened by the direction of the movement, it had so many possibilites going for it and in general, it followed the usual path of most human endeavours.

During the past few years I have been told that I have a lack consciousness, and that money is just an energy, so what is wrong with trading one form of energy for another.  This is semantics, mumbo-jumbo to help the materially minded feel better about their choices.  I have lost track of how many 'new-agers' have said to me, "But if you charge more money for your services you can have more nice things and do more work for others."  Bull-Plop people.

The material possessions I have are all old, but, each one does what I ask of it.  The 1978 Datsun I drive starts every morning and goes anywhere I want to go, thankfully.  All my NEEDS are met by the creative awareness that all things come from, I have no need of a new car or better, nicer, Things.  

The material world is something that I choose not to be a part of, I refuse to 'Own' land, how can we own something that was not owned at it's creation in the realms ?  If the 'Universe' provides all my needs, and, it provides the opportunity for all experiences, free of charge, then how can I charge heaps of money for serving the needs of another human being ?

As a teenager I had a spiritual teacher for a little while, she told me, " If it's right for you it will cost nothing."  And I have learned that she was right, although it took me 20 years to learn that !

I can not understand why so many guru or teacher types charge so much for using the gifts that they were freely born with.  Or why so many of them teach people things that don't really help the student to come to know their Self, the Soul that they are.  Instead, many 'channel' so they can give messages to other people.  Or use a thousand different confusing terminologies to explain something that is really simple.  Or they are doing the work for the people, instead of helping these people to learn how to do it for themselves. This is fishing for the masses.  I only want to show people how to fish for themselves.

I am also a little offended by some of the famous 'Spiritualists' who have and continue to make Multi-millions of dollars from their gifts, without using a large portion of those millions to do good works in the 'real world'.  A few million dollars would go a long way to providing clean water to those who have none.  Do you see what I mean ?  

Money is an energy, that's obvious because all things in existence are, but it is meant to be shared around to help others.  We are meant to be of service to others, so how can we justify making huge bundles and serving our material desires in the process ?

Thanks for the opportunity to share.  Love always.

[MJ-12]

gf

[Laurel]

I feel really disappointed in my friends who rationalize apathy by saying, "Oh, those starving people CHOSE to starve to fulfill a soul agreement." My thought is, "Maybe they are choosing starve. Maybe if we choose to help them we will be fulfilling OUR soul agreement." But it's too "negative" to focus on alleviating suffering, they say. Much easier to buy some meditation CDs, New Age How-To books, and just forget about it. []

I guess my view of money is colored by my childhood, in which my family started out very poor and ended up fairly well-off but none the happier, in fact, less happy.

My teacher charges a small amount for his instruction, and he says that people don't appreciate what they get for free. This may be true in our society, which is so obsessed with money, but I think in a different world, we might be more likely to appreciate things because they are valuable in another way instead of monetarily valuable. I am inspired by the idea of Participatory Economy (www.parecon.org), but I realize that I'm likely to be living in this materialist society for the rest of my natural life.

My way of dealing with it has been this: My time is the most valuable thing I have. It is worth more than any salary. But money is helpful if I want to eat, have a place to live, use the internet, enjoy certain physical experiences. So I work as little as necessary to maintain a physical/emotional/spiritual standard of living that satisfies me, and I make sure my work is neutral or helpful in the scheme of things. (Working in the field of allopathic medicine, though, lately I wonder if I'm doing more harm than good in the larger scheme of things.)

In my group of friends and family, I am one of the people call when they want opinions or help on spiritual/energy work/health issues. These people often ask me, "why do you waste your time working at a job that pays $X/hour when you could help people more and get paid $XX/hour?" I have done "consultations" for which people paid me, and I don't like the dynamic that gets created of me being the knowing one and the other person being the unknowing subject. Sometimes I think it's silly to think that way, though, because intuitive/spiritual abilities seem to be talents not much different from other talents (the ability to paint, cut hair, analyze blood, cook) which we frequently pay people to use on our behalf. Maybe I do know more in general about how to find certain bits of information. My using it and claiming it monetarily valuable in the context of our society isn't the same thing as my using it and claiming that I'm the only one who could offer such information. There's also the issue of people who are hugely talented (not me) having to work at unfulfilling jobs all day just to get by financially instead of spending that time helping people while "getting by" just fine.

Education is another issue that seems bound up in money. I have never finished (or really even started) college, and every year that passes seems to make it less likely that I will. College is, for many, the way out of poverty (or at least it used to be.) But to me it seems just as much like a way in to student loan debt, requirements to act civilized and accept the values of an "educated" group, which include buying big houses and new cars and the right clothes. You know the drill. There's part of me that really wants the degree, though, so that I'll have the advantage of the degree if ever my current line of work fails and so I'll have some credibility in the eyes of people who believe formal education alone makes one credible. But wasting all that time in the hallowed halls (where the values and subjects that make life worth living for me are mocked and deconstructed) seems so depressing.

Yeah, it's a strange life, this one. How's it going for you?
Laurel

[Parmenion]

I had been wondering when this topic was going to be addressed. Material discussion is often avoided like the plague by people who walk a spiritual path because they all too often, in spite of themselves, have a high value on money and possesions.

It's a tricky subject and one which I have battled with for quite some time now. I finally convinced myself that financial independance is a worthwhile goal.

How do I justify saying that you might ask? Well, I believe we are all entitled to a life of abundance. Abundance does not mean riches. It means to have all of the things in life that we need to have. Food, clothing, a home, health, security, happiness. I would love to live (and have often dreamed of living) in a society where man and woman build their own homes, grow their own food, and raise their own horses for transport. Or the modern day equivalent to this. A nice picture of a future of cyclic living is painted in the "Celestine Prophecies". I refer to that book only because many of you may have read it. Now you and I both now that this is unlikely to transpire without a massive shift in human conciousness, which may or may not happen in the coming years. But thats a different discussion alltogether.

We are all Spirit. As Spirit are we supposed to be spending 40 plus years of our life working five to six days a week, at eight to ten hours a day? I dont believe so. We have much growth to accomplish whilst we occupy our physical bodies and time is our most precious resource while we are here. Financial independance equals material freedom. Freedom from the pursuit of money to pay the bills and keep the creditors from knocking at the door. When one has attained financial independance he/she has opened the door of opportunity for a lifetime of spiritual growth without the interruptions of the material world. Jim Rohn, the popular business philosopher puts it like this ; "Once you get money out of the way, it's amazing the other aspects of your life you can work on".

As with all things in life, balance must be maintained when looking at the monetary system and spirituality. We are mind, body and spirit and none of these can be neglected for another. We also have families who cannot be neglected in the pursuit of freedom from financial worry. Dropping five or six aspects of your life to follow one just wont work. The same can be said with any aspect of your life. If you were to refuse to recognise anything in your life bar spiritual growth you would end up living on the streets, alienated from friends and family, in a state of constant illness. I do see financial independance as a worthwhile goal but not at the expense of the rest of your life.

How is it possible to be financially independant without devoting yourself to the pursuit of money one might wonder? It's not really all that difficult. The biggest obstacle to success in this field (as in all others) is ourselves. If you are open to accept a life of abundance and believe it is ok for you to be financially independant, then half the battle is won. Ask the universe to provide for you and be willing to recieve it and you shall. Books on creative visualisation abound. You will always find what you are looking for if it's what you really want/need.

My problem since I took my first step towards spiritual growth was that I did not believe it was ok to have money. For almost a year I worked only when I was flat broke and had outgoings that could not be put off any longer. It took a change in attitude and a willingness to accept an abundant life for me to move on. I now have a goal ( and a means) to get myself into a position in the next two to three years where I will have a home and money to start and raise a family and educate them. I will not need to be a father who never sees his children because he spends all day and night working to make ends meet. I want to be able to spend all day every day with my family and with myself, on the path to enlightenment. Is this selfish or materialistic of me?

I realise that posting such opinions here may leave me open to a torrent of abuse. I care not. I have struggled with this topic within my being for a long time and I am happy to finally put it to bed. Posting this here affirms this for me.

Before I finish I would like to share a simple philosophy with you.
Its called AS MUCH AS YOU CAN. I use it to answer a lot of my questions.

Q;How much should you earn??
A; AS MUCH AS YOU CAN

Q: How much should you share??
A: AS MUCH AS YOU CAN

Q: How much should you learn??
A: AS MUCH AS YOU CAN

Q: How much should you teach??
A: AS MUCH AS YOU CAN

Q: How much should you grow??
A: AS MUCH AS YOU CAN

Q: How much should you help others??
A: AS MUCH AS YOU CAN

Q: How much should you love??
A: AS MUCH AS YOU CAN

You get the idea...

With best regards,

Dave

[bomohwkl]

As long as our goal is not to accumulate money and neglecting our spirituality, I think it would be fine since people in this forum wish to have money to gain material comfort rather than obtaining power. Some wisdom I would I to share too sincere people who are seeking spirituality in the increasing material world.

Material comfort is IRREVELANT if it is not used to provide foundation and accelerate spiritual development.

[bomohwkl]

Some of the posts here are quite inspiring and Laurel observation is quite true.[]

As long as our goal is not to accumulate money and neglecting our spirituality, I think it would be fine since people in this forum wish to have money to gain material comfort rather than obtaining power. Some wisdom I would I to share too sincere people who are seeking spirituality in the increasing material world.

Material comfort is IRREVELANT if it is not used to provide foundation and accelerate spiritual development.

[travelinbob]

Money, Guns, Drugs, Cars, etc are just tools. There value depends on how they are used. They can all be used with good intentions and for noble purposes. So it all depends on intent.

Balance is the key. Neither greed nor indiference are good. So go ahead and make money, as long as you give EQUAL IMPORTANCE to your spirituality, health, intelect and emotions. And do all of them with good intentions and ethics.

[travelinbob]

An interesting quote:

"Life starts out in the neutral position between profits and losses- it neither fears losses nor desires profits. Life just is, and that's represented by the Grail. However, as a human being develops self-awareness, fear and greed arise. But when you get rid of greed (and the fear that comes from lacking), you reach a special unity with all. And that's where great traders and investors emerge."

From Van K. Tharp's Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom. Page 8, McGraw Hill, 1998.

[Laurel]

I've been consistently impressed with the usual lack of flame wars on this community, so I wasn't expecting Dave or anyone else to get flamed. "It takes all kinds," right?

I think Dave's philosophy is fine. In fact, if I enjoyed "doing business" and had the means to set up a business that treats its employees very well and provides phenomenal goods or services, I would probably be a business person instead of an employee. To me it makes sense to take what you have and make what you can with it. If you have the existing potential and preparations to make a lot of money (thus freeing yourself for other important pursuits besides making a living), I say, "go for it!" But as someone who values my time and does not enjoy business, I would prefer not to spend years and years of it preparing myself just to make money.

The Monroe Institute website has a great radio interview archived with Robert Monroe. Listening to that conversation really helped me see that all of life is spiritual and helps me grow. Meditating is fine, astral projecting is great, but so is challenging oneself with the profound ethical questions I might encounter as a millionaire, a nurse, a dictator, a dump truck driver. I can't get away from life's challenge. We're all in it together, trying our own approaches, perhaps not aware that we're all in it together (and this is one of the biggest challenges, it seems!)
Laurel

[bomohwkl]

However, what sadden me is that MAJORITY of people goal of life is making money and completely neglecting spirituality development buy its own effort.

[Laurel]

quote:Originally posted by bomohwkl

However, what sadden me is that MAJORITY of people goal of life is making money and completely neglecting spirituality development buy its own effort.

Yeah, it seems like life would be more pleasant if more people would see things OUR way! [] But life just isn't like that (yet?).

[jilola]

Hah, we're the gathering of the sad flameless ones []

Money isn't really the issue, is it? It's how you, as an individual, relate to it. So it's all about YOU and not anything around you, or anything you have or don't have.
Now how do most people get so distracted and lost as to think it matter how much of something you have instead of caring about how you have what you have or what you make of what you have or can give to others?

2cents & L&L
jouni

PS: Give me money.

[Osiris]

Greetings,


Monetary system and Spirituality. Good it`s `and` not `versus`:) So there is a possibility for a bridge. Personally I think that to be involved in the money making can either diminish your spirituality or greatly enchance it. It`s a test that not everyone would choose. In a way we are all progressing trought challenges. Some would see they challenge as to help others in the role of healers, spiritual advisers,etc.
Some would prefer to meet challenges of bussiness world so they can test how strong they morals are.

I think that our era demands for integration. Integration is possible only when people on the both ends accept certain spiritual values as the best solution to provide for they needs.

I do believe that there is a group of people who are afraid to let go. They are so used to the old ways. You can meet them everywhere.
In a shop,church, new age movement, bank, goverment office, etc...
And they are in turn influencing people around.

It`s very challeging for someone to embrace spiritual values, becouse then thay can`t do the things they did before to earn money. Or at least they have to change they ways substancially.
Like some investment bankers:)))

There is a need for this people to see a suitable solution. Maybe it was they life plan to become an enlighted businessman:)) And becouse New Age in the minds of many seems to be conception that exclude business, they can`t benefit fully from the teachings. Or they fall a victim of the some Self-Grow books likes `How become Millionaire in 10 days` where author claiming that by simply virtue of the daily affirmation one can become extra rich.
Naturally there is plenty good books too.
 
There is a definition of a New Age in the Oxford dictionary :
adj.connected with a way of life that rejects moder Western values and is based spiritual ideas and beliefs. New Age travellers (= people in Britain who reject the values of modern society and travel from place to place, living in their vehicles)  ))

I did notice if people don`t change voluntarily they will have to change under difficult circumstances. Look at Enron, etc
related cases. It`s seem that karma manifests itself almost instantly now.


At the end I would like to share the following observation.
The reason why peole strive to surround themself with an exessive luxury, lies in they unconsious wish to cover a lack of a true spiritual harmony, wich is the firm knowlege of innerself and one relationship with GOD.

Sincerely yours,

Osiris.

[cainam_nazier]

Personally I want to be obscenly rich.  I strive to be so.  I do this knowing that through my travels I will be tested.  I do this knowing that I will be given the opportunity to become a better person.  I do this also knowing that in the end I will have less worries.  The fewer things I need to worry about, like food, housing, bills, ect., the more energy and time can be put towards my spiritual needs.

[bomohwkl]

cainam_nazier, Have you ever come into your mind how can you be rich financially without taking advantage of others. Don't you need to compete with others? How do you feel when the issue of money restrict your freedom of choice again and again? Where is the feeling of love in that situation? In this world, it is just hard to maintain the feeling of bliss and love throughout our conscious awakening.
Pursuiting money has robbed away majority of our time to study ourselves. What I mean, the world is better place without money.

[bomohwkl]

Osiris
Monetary system AND Spirituality.After studying my myself,I think I know why I use AND rather than vs.
I think monetary system causes widespred suffering. It seem that for majority of people we will not learn until we suffer. Spirituality is the road to overcome such suffering. Only when we LEARN that there is a bridge. Life is just a lesson to test our understanding.

[bomohwkl]

jilola,
Mother Teresa cared the poorest of the poor was indeed inspiring. She provided essential necessities for them.Street beggars came in and then returned to the street again. Unfortunately her approach has caused dependency of her help. The best solution seems to teach them to think themselves to see the other alternatives and helped them to achieve it.
Jesus once said, " ......If you give money to charity, you will harm our spirit"
Sorry, jilola I wouldnt give you money.[]

[Nick]

As James said above, a balance exists that we should strive for. Also, as Dave indicated there is nothing wrong with it, so long as there is balance.

Spirituality can and should influence our daily affairs, including our use of money. If, as has been said, we balance our earnings with spirituality, then we can see to it that good work is done.

There is nothing wrong with earning a decent wage. No, it does not mean that by doing so you step on people. That happens, but as individuals we decide whether or not we're going to do so. Point is, you can earn and still be a good person.

[beavis]

jilola "Hah, we're the gathering of the sad flameless ones"

People who flame are worthless scumbags. They all deserve to die in a crocodile and scorpion pit! I'll kill them all. Flaming is bad. I'd never do that.

[Tayesin]

Hi Again.

We are taught that money is evil. I wonder how an object can be evil?
Perhaps nothing is inherently evil of it's own.

From reading the posts here, it seems that a persons intent and aspirations have a lot to do with whether they see it as good or bad.
And I agree that a balance is required, as it is in all things. I also agree that it is not good practice to allow others too learn that someone else will help them...as per the post by Jilola. And that is true. That way also leads to further disempowerment.

For me, money seems to be in short supply most of the time and that can cause some problems when it comes to not being able to do some things in the world. But that is obviously a learning for me. And I would always choose to help others find their way without charging for it.  So the best way would seem to lie somewhere in the middle, again. With the way I view it, it would be better for me to find a way to be payed more, for using skills in a workplace, than to charge high fees to people who come asking my help.  But, that's just my choice.

Love always.

[bomohwkl]

So many can easily think that money is short. It is not easy for them to conclude that that the goal of life is making more and more money so that you never short of money. Most teengers and kids even get an impression that the goal of life is money, money and money.The danger lies here.
So little people would think that there is more life than just concentrating in earning more and more money.