I wrote this post but posted it probably in the wrong place, I have some questions about the phasing model for you all.
Ok Now I ain't no mystic, never claimed to be one. I would however like to ask all you guys to explain me something.
You say that Monroe Bruce and others who you now term Mystics were wrong, no such thing as out of the body. 3 years ago when you were all just experimenting and someone came with such a claim he was met with ridicule, but now you have the very convenient Phasing Model (thanks Frank) to lean to and now suddenly the "Mystics" are out and you, all the "more enlightened people" rule. Your model of explanation the latest and most progressive model is the "in" thing.
It seems logical to me however, that your model, your belief system or non belief system (which is just another form of belief albeit negative in nature), is just another model to explain something we seem to not understand. What makes you right Frank or Adrian and whoever, and what makes Monroe Bruce etc wrong wrong. If you have the holy grail please let us know. Why should we believe a word of what you say, are you not just another guy with all the answers another Mystic trying to sell his "charms" packaged in nice books fancy titles and catchy advertising, and as I asked in some other thread, how does this attitude of selling the truth look on your karmic records.
I am seriously interested in this debate and I am curious if you will take this debate or delete my post. I know that whoever posts here are not allowed to question or criticize the moderators- so lets see. What do you think Nay Gandalf and all you others ................. how are we doing on the pulse. ?? Still fighting for the truth??? or what.......
Regards Mustardseed
_________________
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!
Quote from: MustardseedI wrote this post but posted it probably in the wrong place, I have some questions about the phasing model for you all.
Ok Now I ain't no mystic, never claimed to be one. I would however like to ask all you guys to explain me something.
You say that Monroe Bruce and others who you now term Mystics were wrong, no such thing as out of the body. 3 years ago when you were all just experimenting and someone came with such a claim he was met with ridicule, but now you have the very convenient Phasing Model (thanks Frank) to lean to and now suddenly the "Mystics" are out and you, all the "more enlightened people" rule. Your model of explanation the latest and most progressive model is the "in" thing.
The mystic bashing concerns me a little too, frank seems to take every opportunity to tell us how wrong mystics are, now I support franks work, but he could do without that, he should stick to teaching his stuff and leave the mystics to themselfs.
It seems logical to me however, that your model, your belief system or non belief system (which is just another form of belief albeit negative in nature I don't agree whit that, there is truth and there is belief ), is just another model to explain something we seem to not understand. Not just another model, a model that is more accurate, well that's what frank is going for anyway. What makes you right Frank or Adrian and whoever, and what makes Monroe Bruce etc wrong wrong. The truth! If you have the holy grail please let us know. Why should we believe a word of what you say, are you not just another guy with all the answers another Mystic trying to sell his "charms" packaged in nice books fancy titles and catchy advertising, and as I asked in some other thread, how does this attitude of selling the truth look on your karmic records. You should believe it if you are convinced just like some of us that this is the way forward, if not, than just don't believe.
I am seriously interested in this debate and I am curious if you will take this debate or delete my post. I know that whoever posts here are not allowed to question or criticize the moderators- so lets see. What do you think Nay Gandalf and all you others ................. how are we doing on the pulse. ?? Still fighting for the truth??? or what.......
Regards Mustardseed
_________________
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!
I think Mustardseed has a genuine concern which other members have presented in various ways.
How much is phasing reliant on its underlying philosophy?
If I missed your concern, Mustardseed, I hope you don't mind if I ask this question here anyways, because it seems very similar.
We do not have the luxury enjoyed in other fields of study of a developed and distinct philosophy to underpin our practical theories. There is science and philosophy of science. There is mathematics and there is philosophy of mathematics. However, there does not appear to be differentiation between astral projection and philosophy of astral projection; or indeed phasing and philosophy of phasing; or if I may choose the more general term, dreaming and philosophy of dreaming.
The reason for differentiating these two facets of a study is because, I think, it makes for a lot cleaner understanding and debate. It is indeed hard, nigh impossible, to discuss theories of science alongside philosophical theories of science in any meaningful direction. I sense a very similar, if not identical, situation here.
The philosophy espoused in this forum has actually been named - "Integral philosophy." While certainly a worthy field, I'm not sure that integration as a primary goal serves the origination of a philosophy of dreaming. Indeed, as I participate in this forum further, I am coming to the opinion that placing integration at a level of such high importance actually obstructs the conception of bold, new and deserving ideas.
It may be prudent to disintegrate a sub-forum and name it "Philosophy of Dreaming" a name I prefer to "Philosophy of Astral Projection" or "Philosophy of Lucid Dreaming" because it is courteously more integral. Thus, all philosophies of dreaming could be discussed, ranging from Eastern to Western tradtions; Psyhological to Spiritual; Scientific to Pragmatic; alongside original systems like the one that applies to Frank's model.
But the important distinction is that they would be philosophical systems which are directly used to underpin explanations and practical models of dreaming, and would not be full blown philosophies per se.
Does anyone think that such a forum distinction would be beneficial? Right now I am content to leave this thread about Frank's model, and differentiating phasing and philosophy phasing, should other members decide to go in that direction.
A lot of people who come here (I assume), are trying to LEARN about astral travel, and do it on their own. For me, even though Frank says he speaks the "truth", it's still "spiritual", "mystical", & everything else he says it isn't. I guess the main point being, it's beyond this world (or consciousness), and unprovable until you can experience it yourself.
It seems to me that Frank is saying something like, it's not that the Mystics' experience isn't real, but it's not real in the way that they think it is. Like the way most people experience the Physical world.
Personally, I like thinking that it's all within myself, and I don't need to buy crystals and chant and sit in uncomfortable positions and worry about evil spirits. I've only had a few non-physical experiences, but it's good to know I did them on my own without relying on "mystical" stuff. I'm not saying that Frank has the definitive knowledge, but it's different than we've been hearing for thousands of years, and more relevant for a fast-paced western society.
Keep it up Frank. The amount "mystical" stuff out there grossly outweighs the amount of what you share. A place like this needs to exist.
My point exactly. .........It seems that Frank has just adapted a model that is more consistant with the life he or we or some of us live, a different style. Fashion changes all the time. I totally get that its more in synck with the way life is lived, however that does not nessesarily make it true, albeit more palatable. There is a difference.
In his model I would assume that he counts Negs a thing of the mind. I woulod like to ask him that. Bruce presented a whole picture in which Projection was a part. How does that fit Frank, are negs a fiction of your mind, and while we are at it how about spirit guides and other spiritual phenomena, how does all that fit.
Regards Mustardseed
MS_
Frank follows Monroe's approach in that he wants to 'strip everything down to the bare bones' so that everyone can have a chance of understanding it. Ok maybe he does go overboard sometimes in his caustic remarks about mystics and so on, but it has to be said that it is about time some of these self-proclaimed 'mystics' were knocked off their tree.
Remember that Monroe himself actually apologised if his stripped down 'mechanical' model sometimes falls short of portraying the wonder of it all; that task is better suited to poets. Because of this, Monroe's approach can appear to some as rather cold and 'unmystical' if by 'mystical' you mean 'awe inspiring' or 'wondrous'.
However, in Monroe's opinion this is a necessary sacrifice so as to be able to explain a basic model or guide that will allow as many people as possible to go and experience the wider reality for themselves. Everyone can be assured that once they actually *experience* the wider reality for themselves, they will find that it is every bit as wondrous and awe inspiring as they might imagine it to be, more so in fact, when you think about it all. It's all very mystical in that sense, but in order for the most people to get the most benefit and so as to provide a solid practical guide that can allow people to go and see for themselves, rather than relying on what others have to say, it is necessary to adopt a solid, no nonsense, no frills approach. This might not suit everyone but it does suit a lot of people and it is democratic in the sense that it is designed to appeal to as wide a range of people as possible.. There are no degrees of knowledge or grades of initiation etc etc.
It is this 'graded' approach that comes under fire as this hierarchical system is unfair and elitist and completely unnecessary. This is what the phasing model approach tries to get around by being no nonsense and telling people like it is, so that they can then go out and check for themselves, not just go by the rantings of some guy from the pulpit.
Doug
Mustardseed:
Like the Major, I'm really not sure what you are on about. Monroe realised later there was no such thing as "out of body".
Moreover, I have repeatedly stated on this forum that all my early work was based on Monroe and I regard him as a great pioneer. So how you can rightfully accuse me of being against Monroe on some significant or fundamental issue such as this, I'm at a loss to fathom.
Yours,
Frank
I think what MS is saying Frank, is perhaps you are a bit harsh and too quick to shoot down someone else's belief or experiences...?
Think about our private chats that we've had in the past ;)
Nay
Nay:
I've got a load of work to get on with so I'm gonna just get on and do that and leave Mustardseed to it. As I said I simply don't know what he is going on about anyway in claiming that I am somehow running contrary to Monroe.
My other concern is this was not an Astral Consciousness issue and today I see the post has now been moved to a more appropriate forum.
By definition our private chats should remain private and not referred to in the public forum. I'm surprised you even mention it. Rest assured there shall be no more private chats in future.
Yours,
Frank
Hi guys
Yea I am not so sure I know what I am talking about either 8) ha no....just kidin'. Doug I find your post rather interesting. Let me ask you how I should understand it. Are you saying that Mystics like R.Bruce are trying to hide the truth and make people adhere to his secret society before he will let them in on the real McCoy, if you are talking about Robert Doug, you are at the very least silly :shock: .............he wrote the very books that gave many of us a possibility to live with what was happening to us.
If anyone has attempted to be no mystic in actual reality, yet still being a very mystical person in actual fact, I would say it was him. The fact is that Robert as many of us have had experiences that he has done his best to understand. His writings are still a great comfort to many Doug, and no matter what you cal him, he has a heart. You know I have my issues with certain things as well, no apologies, I do not see eye to eye with him on everything, but on enough things to recognize a kindred Spirit.
Mystic or not he is human he gets ticked has his issues as do we all, but I have reached out and felt him and he is real, I trust you on many things trust me on that one. Why bash a man who has helped so many, explain that to me . Whats in it for you Frank. ? Adrian?
I know I am not so easy to get along with either (right Nay :lol: ) but I try. Everything you say guys I think about, I really do, yet there are white spots on your map, it does not fit completely.
Frank tell me have you ever had a conscious exit? can you recognize the scenario of watching your body slowly elevating out of your physical body. If you have, explain me again what is NOT real about that, indulge me.
I want friends good vibrations I do not want to leave a trail of contention. I have learned so so much from you all about so much, learned to talk without getting too sensitive argue a point without negativity etc
I want the truth as I assume you all do, so as I said enlighten me.
Regards Mustardseed
Quote from: FrankNay:
I've got a load of work to get on with so I'm gonna just get on and do that and leave Mustardseed to it. As I said I simply don't know what he is going on about anyway in claiming that I am somehow running contrary to Monroe.
My other concern is this was not an Astral Consciousness issue and today I see the post has now been moved to a more appropriate forum.
By definition our private chats should remain private and not referred to in the public forum. I'm surprised you even mention it. Rest assured there shall be no more private chats in future.
Yours,
Frank
:D I just got a vision of you spanking me and sending me to my room. :lol: :lol:
I wasn't referring to just you and me as in PM's, so I don't know why you are getting upset.. :?:
Dear Doug
First let me ask you to define the difference between Robert Bruce Frank and Adrian. Did Robert not start the site......granted with Adrian help? Did he demand special initiation from you?
As far as I see he damn near posted his entire book on the site and poured out all that he knew to anyone that asked you included, or am I wrong.
You said ..... rather than relying on what others have to say, it is necessary to adopt a solid, no nonsense, no frills approach. This might not suit everyone but it does suit a lot of people.........There are no degrees of knowledge or grades of initiation etc etc.
It is this 'graded' approach that comes under fire as this hierarchical system is unfair and elitist and completely unnecessary. This is what the phasing model approach tries to get around by being no nonsense and telling people like it is, so that they can then go out and check for themselves, not just go by the rantings of some guy from the pulpit.
Dear Doug are you really so young that you do no realize that Frank and Adrian are using you to sell their books, I just cant believe that you do not see that. Maybe you in your pride (and I sense a somehow Leo vibration there) maybe you think that they are somehow "better", if so I say you are the new inquisition, take your best shot. Burn the heretics anyone who does not see it like I do and by the way the earth is still flat 8) 8)
Whats your point my friend
Regards Mustardseed
PS still waiting to hear about the negs and spirit guides Frank how does that fit. Have you ever seen one, or have you ever seen a person possessed by one. In my opinion and I have seen a few, this would have to fit because its not in your mind or mine Frank, its out there, and its not always happening while you are on your bed or chair Phasing.
In the first post my question was:
It seems logical to me however, that your model, (Phasing) your belief system or non belief system ................. is just another model to explain something we seem to not understand. What makes you right Frank ? or Adrian and whoever, and what makes Monroe (Robert) Bruce (i.e. The Mystics) etc wrong wrong. ...................Why should we believe a word of what you say?, are you not just another guy with all the answers another Mystic trying to sell his "charms" packaged in nice books fancy titles and catchy advertising, and as I asked in some other thread, how does this attitude of selling the truth look on your karmic records.
If you don't understand the question Major I can re write it in another form.
I am still waiting for Frank or Adrian to address this issue.
Regards Mustardseed
Hi MS_
Frank and Adrian do not 'use me to sell their books'. Neither does RB. In fact I don't always agree with their opinions on all things all of the time, and I have no problem telling them so. I do however find their approach useful and I take what I like from their work, but for me the drive is always to get *personal experience* in something before taking it as a given. For that reason I do respect others knowledge if it is stated to be based on their own direct experience, but even then I accept it as a *guide only* and I do not accept it as 'written in stone'. In fact, these people themselves do not for the most part believe that everything is set in stone and they continually update and modify their own findings as they progress. Knowledge is always advancing. However, such guides are very useful, 'road maps' as Monroe would call them, and like all tourist books, the way they are presented and the exact way they come across will vary from writer to writer and you just have to go with the approach that suits you.
However it has to be said that there are a lot of charlatans out there who are fakes who just want to jump on the guru train and rip everyone off. Frank detests such people and this often leads him to make what can sometimes be sweeping statements about all so called mystics; these can be a tad too extreme sometimes and I have no problem in telling him so and I'm sure Frank doesn't mind me telling him so either.
As for me criticising RB, I never actually said I was talking about RB at all. I am talking about the big time fake gurus; you just assume that I am also talking about RB, but I didn't say that.
Doug
Runlola,
Love what you said!! It all really resonated with me.
Don't stop being weird either. If what you're doing is weird, then weird is good. If you don't like "weird", a friend of mine refers to us as being "spooky". I like that term. :)
Mustardseed,
I've looked at both methods - traditional OBE & phasing. Can't say I ever had any success with OBE's. I own a copy of RB's Astral Dynamics, and I learned a lot from it, but it was ultimately what Frank brought to this site regarding Monroe's phasing method that prooved to be of most benefit to me. It's a personal choice thing though. We all need options in our lives.
While I would like to see Frank being more tolerant of the beliefs of others, I do understand why he's taken the approach he has, and I see a lot of validity in it. He's stripped something back to its core by cutting out all the mystical padding that tends to overrun such concepts. It's like giving someone a plain pastry mix to work with. They can add their own flavouring afterwards, which is much easier than taking someone elses flavouring that you might not like and trying to take it out of the mix.
I work as a psychic / medium / reiki & crystal healer, so I guess I'm as mystical (or spooky) as you can get. I use phasing as a tool to help me in what I do, because unlike full OBE's it allows me to remain grounded, which is essential to providing spiritual healing.
But again, that's my path, and it's not everyone's cup of tea. If you prefer RB's more traditional OBE approach, and that works for you, go with it! It's great you've found something that works for you.
Blessings,
James.
Hi James
How have you been :D . Thanks for the post, yea I have also tried both and settled for I guess what appears to be an in between using elements of both, however that is not my issue. What I am asking about and hope to get clarified is Phasings (Franks) overall view on spiritual phenomena. It seemed to me that Robert provided plausible theories and suggestions to explain things that I know to be true in my life. He never claimed to have the whole truth but merely tried to put into western words what other cultures have their own lingo for. At least that's what I understand. He attempted to describe the phenomena and chose words like energy points or centers instead of Chacra, negs instead of demons etc etc.
It seems to me that Frank is quite inexperienced in the spiritual aspects of these things, and have chosen to postulate that these things only exist in your mind, in other words that they are not real, if we define real something that appears to all. (i.e. the Taj Mahal is real cause we can all see it and experience it by going to Agra)
In other words negs as I previously understood them to work even before I read any of Roberts material, is only in my head, a subjective reality of sorts .
I certainly hope that this is not offensive to anyone especially Frank, but I find it questionable that he seems such a Phasing Fundi, I find it very hypocritical and misguided for him to say
"I alone know the truth I alone can explain it I alone have the model, all that went before me were mystics frauds and power trippers, so buy my book and I will tell you all about it" This is not a quote from Frank he never used those words but seems to imply this attitude.
Doug re iterates this attitude and it seems so weird that they do not realize that they are guilty of the very things they accuse Mystics of.
Here is a little story for you :D Imagine........
Robert Bruce Adrian and Frank standing around. Adrian and Robert both with their hands tucked inside their shirts talking.
Robert.......I am Napoleon
Adrian.......WHAT!!! that's not true, you cant be 'cause I AM NAPOLEON
Robert...... No way, what makes you think you are, when I know I am
Adrian.......God told me man
Frank........That's not true, I never said any such thing
A slightly more humoristic way of explaining the point I am trying to make
Regards Mustardseed
Umm, Mustard,
You might want to start steering your posts back onto more solid ground. You started out on this topic ok, but comments like your last one get real boring real quick. They're just not worth discussing.
Please consider.
James.
Hi James
I think I will take your advise, ha it seems that I am doing all the talking and no one really wants to get involved in this debate. I wonder why that is. ?
It is my guess that the moderators and maybe others on the AP have too much vested interest in Phasing and maybe this is clouding the issue. No one talks James, no one answers question just..........silence.
One thing is to present a method, as a alternative viewpoint, another thing is to present it as an Ultimate truth. I guess I could soon get an answer that says something like "you want answers read my book", it wont be the first time. How does the green lady fit in James, is she a fiction of your imagination?
I tried for a light hearted approach, but I get the feeling that folks take themselves too serious.......that little burp is actually my favorite joke, I tell it to myself when I get too high and mighty ha.
So help me out here how do you think I should go about steering this back to solid ground, without getting boring? Is this a question I am alone in asking, is this of any kind of interest to anyone but me.
Regards Mustardseed
One thing is to present a method, as a alternative viewpoint, another thing is to present it as an Ultimate truth.
But that's all the phasing approach claimes to be... another method. The method is not the ultimate truth, all any method does is allow you to (hopefully) go and discover the ultimate reality for yourself (which will be a long process). But like all new developments, this method is trying to improve on previous ones. It doesnt cancel out other methods. People can choose whatever method they like. In fact you often see people combining the phasing model with other approaches.. this too is possible.
The reason is that the phasing approach is the boiled down version. It contains the essential elements of all the other methods but is stripped down to bare essentials to aid explanation. That's all that it is. People can add their own 'dressing' and additonal methods to this, including elements of RB's energy work and obe approaches. These all work and Frank himself has plenty experience of 'chackras', energy centres (even if he likes to use alternative terminology) and obe techniques and thus does not contradict RB in any way.
He does not even say 'negs' do not exist, as you suggest he does. On the contrary, he implies that whatever you believe you create. They are not just 'in your head' as if you believe in them they are *very real indeed* and take shape in specific areas of reality and can affect the afflicted. However, what Frank does suggest is that in his experience, 'negs' are *products* ie created by the afflicted themselves and the best way to avoid such situations is to increase one's own knowledge and experience of the wider reality and in this way to understand how thought equates into reality. Armed with this, you can learn to avoid neg situations. But, it is up to people to confirm this for themselves. He doesnt just ask people to accept it, but to go and find out for themselves. Anyone with a bit of experience soon starts to realise the thought = reality nature of the world. Once you see this in effect, it becomes pretty clear, at least to me, how 'neg experiences' occur. That doesnt mean they are not real and are not a serious issue, they are. But the best way to combat this issue is to understand how it comes about.
Once again, Phasing is the 'latest' approach and the most open in that it offers a bolied down approach so that everyone can undertand it and then use it to go and find things out for themselves. There is nothing in the phasing approach that contradicts what RB or anyone else has to say. It just offers a no frills approach and in some cases, a means to bypass methods that may not be strictly nececery, although some people like to continue to include them if they find them useful or enjoyable, which is just as good, each to their own. But as phasing is the new thing, it is only right that it be given a platform here. Other techniques are also covered and have dedicated forums elsewhere on the internet. Go with what you find useful, or even 'pick and mix' methods in order to find what works for you, I do.
Doug
Hi Doug
I totally understand your post and I am glad that my understanding of Phasing is correct. This very idea is what I find a claim. That Negs just to mention one issue are nothing but a fiction of my mind, or indeed a fiction of someones life. This makes them un real to my definition of them, in so much that they can be combatted by manifesting a attitude of non compliance (non belief).
In a way this very approach is what many people say about sickness, that it is all in your mind. Like the Christian Scientist said to a guy with a cold on the bus, "its all in your mind my friend" to which the guy replied holding his nostril open "no it ain't see....its in my nose".
The approach is in my opinion a mind trip and it is in contradiction to most other approaches, as it claims to be the underlying principle of them all, and the "Real" explanation of how it all hangs. I understand the phasing teknic and it works ok, it is the wider reality, the context if you will, that I find problematic. It seems to me that out of a teknic has grown a understanding of the world, that goes something like this.......
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The world as you know it is just the reality that you have chosen, it is the focus of consciousness that you have chosen to adapt, (for reasons not even known to you) nothing is real, its Maya, an illusion, in some way it is in nature as a giant lucid dream, in which you play the main part.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this is the case then there is no right no wrong, you can do whatever you want, and like in a dream there will be no consequence to the choices you make, be selfish, unkind, aggressive egotistical it does not matter, cause it ain't real. One have to enlarge ones vision and see that its all about ONE SELF, you are number 1 the main player.
As I said phasing in itself as a teknic is fine but in the wider reality it does not address life and the issues life is made up of properly, all it does is provide people a means to live for themselves, something I believe will come back and bite them some time in the future. It seems to me to be more a product of someone wanting to write a book, and having run out of stuff about the teknic, have decided to play the "what if game"
Imagine there's no heaven its easy if you try as John Lennon sang ...............imagine. No consequence, no right no wrong no light no darkness, no God no Devil no negs, no fear nothing to be afraid of, it all is ok you are ok I am ok, lets sit back smoke a joint more and listen to a few more songs, hey look at that candle man heavy......
I am an old Hippie Doug I heard it all, this sounds a lot like old second hand hippie philosophy, nicely packaged but same old stuff.....cheech and chong "its all in your head man"
What do you think
Regards Mustardseed
Quote from: MustardseedHi Doug
I totally understand your post and I am glad that my understanding of Phasing is correct. This very idea is what I find a claim. That Negs just to mention one issue are nothing but a fiction of my mind, or indeed a fiction of someones life. This makes them un real to my definition of them, in so much that they can be combatted by manifesting a attitude of non compliance (non belief).
Hey Mustardseed,
I'm not Doug, but I like to say something about this.
What makes something real or unreal, in my mind everything that effects you is reality and is real, so maybe you do create those negs yourself, BUT they are real. However because they are your own creating, you can choose not to have them in your reality anymore, though this might not be as easy, because for some reason you have created them, you might be completely unaware how and why you did that, so it might be hard to actually stop creating them.
QuoteIn a way this very approach is what many people say about sickness, that it is all in your mind. Like the Christian Scientist said to a guy with a cold on the bus, "its all in your mind my friend" to which the guy replied holding his nostril open "no it ain't see....its in my nose".
The approach is in my opinion a mind trip and it is in contradiction to most other approaches, as it claims to be the underlying principle of them all, and the "Real" explanation of how it all hangs. I understand the phasing teknic and it works ok, it is the wider reality, the context if you will, that I find problematic. It seems to me that out of a teknic has grown a understanding of the world, that goes something like this.......
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The world as you know it is just the reality that you have chosen, it is the focus of consciousness that you have chosen to adapt, (for reasons not even known to you) nothing is real, its Maya, an illusion, in some way it is in nature as a giant lucid dream, in which you play the main part.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this is the case then there is no right no wrong, you can do whatever you want, and like in a dream there will be no consequence to the choices you make, be selfish, unkind, aggressive egotistical it does not matter, cause it ain't real. One have to enlarge ones vision and see that its all about ONE SELF, you are number 1 the main player.
There are no consequences outside of YOU, but you will make consequences for yourself.
Why is the idea that there is no thing outside yourself creating your reality so treatning?
QuoteAs I said phasing in itself as a teknic is fine but in the wider reality it does not address life and the issues life is made up of properly, all it does is provide people a means to live for themselves, something I believe will come back and bite them some time in the future. It seems to me to be more a product of someone wanting to write a book, and having run out of stuff about the teknic, have decided to play the "what if game"
Well if you believe something you do will always come back to you it surely will.
QuoteImagine there's no heaven its easy if you try as John Lennon sang ...............imagine. No consequence, no right no wrong no light no darkness, no God no Devil no negs, no fear nothing to be afraid of, it all is ok you are ok I am ok, lets sit back smoke a joint more and listen to a few more songs, hey look at that candle man heavy......
A little bit simplistic, but yes, about right, ain't it groovy?
QuoteI am an old Hippie Doug I heard it all, this sounds a lot like old second hand hippie philosophy, nicely packaged but same old stuff.....cheech and chong "its all in your head man"
Haha mustardseed the hippie, is that really true? Well I'm sure its not a new thing, but I don't think those hippies really had it worked out, there is more to it than "its all in your head man".
Greeting,
Rob
Hi Rob
Sorry about the mentioning of Doug, ha glad you answered , it is naturally open for all to do so. Yep my friend just a old recycled hippie, hitchhiked to India and lived all over the Mideast Afghanistan in the early 70s, did LSD in Goa, with the full moon parties. Had my share of the vierd and vonderful vorld of the hippie, note the German accent, there were a lot of Germans there then. We had folks specializing in smoking Cobra poison Datura seeds peyote and experimented with alternative realities and altered states of consciousness daily. Had my first OBE meditating in a Buddhist temple on the slopes of the Himalaya chatted with the Dalai Lama (before chatting became something you do on a computer) Yep you might say I have been 'round the block.
No bragging but you just stirred up old memories. Part of my old memories are the experiences of Spiritual phenomena, elevating swamis, moving furniture, and talking to spiritual entities in English, through the mouth of someone who was not aware that there is a world outside of Nepal. So all in all I remain cautious. How I wish you were all right, but I am pretty convinced that this is no more than a convenient belief system invented by charlatans who care not for anyone, not really, and who have very little real life experience and compensate by living and inventing fiction.
That is my opinion so far, but I realize I could be wrong so I wait and try to stay open.
Regards Mustardseed
Hold up-- I wanna hear about the people smoking cobra venom.
Ha what a world, here I try to elevate the conversation to higher levels. as advised by the moderators 8) and all folks wanna hear about is smoking poison.
Ok here goes.
Find a snake, cobra is best but I imagine your local diamond back will do nicely :roll: milk the poison without getting hurt, this is where most folks drop off. Smoke it by the drop laced on a pipe of tobacco. Ha
Hey its POISON PEOPLE, it will kill your nervous system, actually destroy your brain cell and do unspoken damage to your liver kidneys and balance nerves. Beats sniffing glue 1 to 1000 in a weird high of senseless babble, and the effects are not reversible, you will die from this.
Instead why not get a bottle of whiskey and drink it in a couple of swigs, the high is comparable but I somehow imagine the damaging effects may be less, but then again I might be wrong.
Honestly stay away from even thinking about it. Maybe I should delete that part, hmm .....think think think.
Nah If you are that stupid you will die soon eventually :D
Regards Mustardseed
But wait! I don't wanna know HOW to smoke cobra venom-- I wanna hear stories of people who've actually smoked it.
There's no frakking way I'm catching a rattlesnake. My uncle always used to tell me, "Dave, don't ever- EVAH try to catch a wildcat with yo' bare hands." I think this advice also holds true to catching venomous snakes.
QuoteHa what a world, here I try to elevate the conversation to higher levels. as advised by the moderators :cool:
Ha, I'm guilty..:)
Smoking venom..heheh..new one on me, but my second step mother claimed she was bit by a rattlesnake and seeked no medical help, and lived.....Honestly, she has a MO that tends to lean towards the seeking out of attention, and at her age of 52yr...wow :shock:
Nay
I am an old Hippie Doug I heard it all, this sounds a lot like old second hand hippie philosophy, nicely packaged but same old stuff.....cheech and chong "its all in your head man"
What do you think
I think that I don't agree with you and I think that you need to look at what the phasing model is *actually* trying to say before making judgements which you appear to base on your past 'hippie' experiences. Also, you might want to think about the idea that your views on your 'hippie past' may not apply to everyone. I have talked to a few 'ex-hippies' who have only positive views on their past 'hippy-experience' and still believe it was the right thing to do, even if they eventially had to get older and get on with having kids etc!
Doug
Quote from: MustardseedHi Rob
Sorry about the mentioning of Doug, ha glad you answered , it is naturally open for all to do so. Yep my friend just a old recycled hippie, hitchhiked to India and lived all over the Mideast Afghanistan in the early 70s, did LSD in Goa, with the full moon parties. Had my share of the vierd and vonderful vorld of the hippie, note the German accent, there were a lot of Germans there then. We had folks specializing in smoking Cobra poison Datura seeds peyote and experimented with alternative realities and altered states of consciousness daily. Had my first OBE meditating in a Buddhist temple on the slopes of the Himalaya chatted with the Dalai Lama (before chatting became something you do on a computer) Yep you might say I have been 'round the block.
No bragging but you just stirred up old memories. Part of my old memories are the experiences of Spiritual phenomena, elevating swamis, moving furniture, and talking to spiritual entities in English, through the mouth of someone who was not aware that there is a world outside of Nepal. So all in all I remain cautious. How I wish you were all right, but I am pretty convinced that this is no more than a convenient belief system invented by charlatans who care not for anyone, not really, and who have very little real life experience and compensate by living and inventing fiction.
That is my opinion so far, but I realize I could be wrong so I wait and try to stay open.
Regards Mustardseed
I see you HAVE been around the block! I respect that, but perhaps that is your problem, all of your past building walls around you. Or perhaps it is wisdom you gained, honestly I don't know, I can't say I have a lot of live experience (or any experience) backing up my story, but I believe and we will see where it goes.
I'm a little disappointed that frank doesn't want to respond on this, because he should be in the right position to answer your questions whit all his experience.
Yes mustardseed keep an open mind, but more importantly, test these things for yourself.
Major Tom,
I think the ideas are intermingled whit each other, besides don't be so strict, just let to discussion go its way.
Yea I guess I have been around the block however I do not believe it has made me build walls. I have had OBEs all my life since childhood, spent many years trying to make them stop, to no avail, so I have learned to live with them. I am one of the unfortunate few who does not have to fight to have one but fight against having them too often. What irony.
For a good many years I have worked as an Missionary/Exorcist, I and worked for the best part of 15 years in India and Nepal, so people believe me. I don't buy into the head stuff, these things are real, negs exist, and no amount of pretending they don't are going to make them go away.
That is why I would be so pleased to discuss this with "the man", but it seems he is busy, so let it be. It does not seem that Frank want this exchange of information. If he does respond I would hope that this would not degenerate to become somewhat a exchange of rhetoric's, but a honest exchange of experiences.
What I desire is that we all sit down together Adrian Frank Robert whoever (all of you guys) and compare notes. No one is the enemy no one the adversary, all just friends trying to find the way through, lets compare notes in respect with kindness and may our motive be to learn and help the one who by chance will pass the way we have all ready gone, and may we be a blessing, one to another.
No ego no pride no right wrong or "I told you so". I would be ready for that conversation, to learn from you, would you be ready to learn from me and everyone else who might join in as well????Or do you all ready have all the answers?? Those who know me will know what is in my heart. All I desire is to be a help to someone, that's all.
Regards Mustardseed
Some people never have a neg experience, so they are just lucky I guess?
For a good many years I have worked as an Missionary/Exorcist, I and worked for the best part of 15 years in India and Nepal, so people believe me. I don't buy into the head stuff, these things are real, negs exist, and no amount of pretending they don't are going to make them go away.
Once again, I have to point out that nowhere does the phasing model say that 'negs' are not real. Rather, it is quite clear that anything you create is real.
The issue is not whether 'negs' are real, they are real for the people experiencing them. The issue is to understand what causes 'neg' experiences and what makes 'negs' real.
Once you do a bit of exploring of the astral reality and gain a bit of experience of how it ticks, it becomes pretty clear, at least to me, how 'neg' type experiences occur. Armed with this, you can begin to combat the problem. In fact, it is possible to completely bypass the sticking point completely. Once again, there is nothing that you create that is not real. You just need to get an idea of what is going on to fuel these 'neg experiences'.
Of course, its up to you what you do, but give it a try, you might find that by examining the way in which the 'thought = action' process works, you might save a lot of time in your 'neg battles'.
Doug
Doug said..................
Once again, I have to point out that nowhere does the phasing model say that 'negs' are not real. Rather, it is quite clear that anything you create is real.
The issue is not whether 'negs' are real, they are real for the people experiencing them. The issue is to understand what causes 'neg' experiences and what makes 'negs' real.
Once you do a bit of exploring of the astral reality and gain a bit of experience of how it ticks, it becomes pretty clear, at least to me, how 'neg' type experiences occur. Armed with this, you can begin to combat the problem. In fact, it is possible to completely bypass the sticking point completely. Once again, there is nothing that you create that is not real. You just need to get an idea of what is going on to fuel these 'neg experiences'.
Of course, its up to you what you do, but give it a try, you might find that by examining the way in which the 'thought = action' process works, you might save a lot of time in your 'neg battles'.
Dear Doug
If you don't mind me saying it, it is this very patronizing attitude that I find so silly. It seems you are setting yourself up as some sort of expert in this field, asking me to "give it a try......etc" You talk as if you are lecturing a person who has just encountered a neg problem maybe someone your own age and experience or younger. What I was trying to say seems to not register with you!!.
My point is that I HAVE tried Doug, I have had loads of OBEs and other life experiences, and certainly have met the type of neg you talk about, my own fear in some shape, maybe even someone elses fear, and I agree in the astral these things take on a life on their own. What I was talking about is not this issue, I am talking about the Reality of Negs that was here before any of us maybe for 1000 of years and who's origin is unknown.
I find it almost humorous that you keep talking about us "gaining experience", as does Frank, "try this out try that see for yourself etc". I was in a nice way trying to explain to you that, given the fact that I am most likely twice your age and have been spiritually active for a long time, I have seen and experienced aspects of life you have not nor possibly ever will. You need to get of the self proclaimed experts chair Doug and understand that there are people around that know infinitely more about life spiritual truths etc than you do.
I find it interesting that this point seem to escape you and can only at this time attribute it to an slightly enlarged ego. That is understandable, and not offensive to me, its not a problem forign to me :D , you are still young, but do us all a favor and come down from the pedestal that you have placed yourself on, honestly you sound very much like some of the Mystics you condemn so much. That's what I was trying to say lets ask questions compare notes and reason together, as equals and not as teacher/pupil.
Regards Mustardseed[/quote]
Well, what can you say?
Do what you like, I am not really bothered what you think of phasing or any other method, do what you want.
Doug
Hi Doug
Thanks. Yea actually that's what I am going to do, I will try to do what I have to do. Your reply however saddens me. It seems that you and Frank are not either willing or capable of discussing things that go against your belief systems in a kind and unbiased way. I wonder why that is so.? My reply to you was detailed yet you answer in a sort of cold "whatever " attitude, indicating you are not willing to discuss your conclusions.
That is a very effective way of silencing the opposition, in politics its called "stonewalling".
For a long time I have listened to you Doug, a long time. I have accepted that it was indeed possible you possessed information about religious studies and stuff that I did not have. I respected you for that and yielded to what I hoped was a better source of accurate information. I did not always like it and sometimes your ways rubbed me the wrong way, I felt at times you came across a bit arrogant, but hey!!!! you were right in what was discussed and so I made the decision to ignore your manners because you had valid points to bring to the table.
Now its a bit reversed, I have a few life experiences that I believe are of importance and worth yet you basically cut me off and say "whatever", ................why is that Doug. Are you so sure you know how it all works that you are not interested in this conversation?. Did I offend you by mentioning the fact that I felt you were a bit proud,? or are you investing so much faith in Phasing that you do not dare to see its validity challenged in public?.
Are you honest with yourself or is your mind made up.
Regards Mustardseed
MS, please give it a rest now, ok?
We are all here trying for the same goal, does it really matter how we get there? There are several roads that lead to New York but would you tell someone whom came from the south road, they were wrong and really aren't in New York? Course not. I wish everyone would stop trying to shove ideas onto people..
Where is that gif of beating the dead horse when you need it? :P
Nay
Greetings Mustardseed,
I hope that you don't mind me butting in here, a bit, to meta-comment on how this thread is going. If you are really curious about discussing the phasing model and any questions/concerns you have with it, I think that liberally lacing your questions and thoughts with personal assumptions around the motivations of those you are looking for answers from is demonstrably ineffective. On the other hand, if your major point really IS to impugn the character of those folks, then you are right on target.
The only reason that I interject here is that I'd really like to hear some of the answers to your questions around negs – I've got no experience that I know of with such creatures, but I've plenty with 'neg humans' and if the wider reality is peopled with an effectively limitless number of intelligences, it would seem reasonable that not all of them are pleasant. So, how that interfaces with the self created 'demons' in the FoC model holds some interest for me, as well as potentially valuable information. I'm no cheerleader for the FoC model, but I'm happy to engage it as a model and see how it helps; in the same way that I've engage the more standard OOB model, the Buddhist model of consciousness, Christian model, etc. I don't believe that any of them are true, but find that each of them can be useful in the proper context.
You mention your own pride and Heaven knows I have my own bag of that to schlep around. The question is: are you going to let it keep you from having the discussion that you say you are looking for? One way, or another, I'd like to see it take place.
Take care,
Shinobi
Whoops! Sorry, Nay, just saw your post as I shot mine, so what I said is likely moot, at this point. I still wouldn't mind actually see the conversation take place, though.
Take care,
Shinobi