I can sometimes feel (an interpretation of) time, not the normal passage of it, but its internal structure. All time exists simultaneously. Every event happens exactly once, including events which influence their own past. It only looks like an infinite cycle from a Human's linear perspective that must always move forward. But events dont move forward. They sit still while having an instantaneous influence on other events.
OK whatever,.....personally I think you are a bit deluded sort of on the hindy buddhist side but whatever rocks your boat.
Besides that I also think that attitude is a cop out. Nothing matters, its all the same, it dosnt matter, relax, you are ok I am ok.
RG MS
beavis, i think your probably right.
mustard seed, it won't make sense until you come to the same conclusions that I have.. which will probably not happen.
heres the basics of my beliefs.
Determinism http://www.determinism.com/
Buddhism
Zen
Plus my own beliefs... basically I believe that what happens is based off of all the variables in the universe. Hence, determinism. If all we do is based of variables, what we do could be calculated by a being of infinte knowledge. If what we do can be predicted and the prediction is correct we can change nothing. If nothing can change then everything that will happen has happened because there is no other possibility. If one holds the formula with all of the variables of the equation time would be a meaningless illusion the that being.
So no matter what "I" do I have already done it, therefor I am nothing but the result of an group of variables applied to the equation. Thus I am no one, going nowhere, I am nothing.
Or maybe it's because of that one day when I was running from the cops in the rain with a sheet of 1000 hits of LSD when it melted all over me... Nah.
Have at you!
You are right if there is no randomness, if everything is predictable. But I'm telling you it's not true! As the pendelum swings it never rests, because we can not know both speed and direction at the same time.
I too thought that there is no hope, but that was the problem: I was thinking, not acting. In linear thought there is no obvious randomness, but you are only reacting then, and not _acting_. Sieze control with your will and your intuition will give you action. Dare cross the line, embrace chaos, and the rest is the maness of art. [;)]
There are no teachers, truely there is no one with any answers. The world is filled with parasites trying to survive. Pointless. My only true comfort is knowing that physical existance is temporary.
No man is above another, no man has answers, were are all just that - human. I'm tired of prophets, gurus, and people claiming to know the truth. I don't believe enlightenment can be taught by another. I don't know. I just wish it would all end.
You do not seem to be very happy.
What makes you think you could not be happy?
quote:
Originally posted by Steel Hawk
There are no teachers, truely there is no one with any answers. The world is filled with parasites trying to survive. Pointless. My only true comfort is knowing that physical existance is temporary.
No man is above another, no man has answers, were are all just that - human. I'm tired of prophets, gurus, and people claiming to know the truth. I don't believe enlightenment can be taught by another. I don't know. I just wish it would all end.
The world is what you think it is!!!!!!
If you think that there are no real answers then you are right becouse each answer is relativ to what we precive. Nothing is true untill we decide it is.
The physical world is trmporary, you are here untill you outgrow it. If you slowly kill yourself with the thought that it is bad then you will be like the puritans and/or many other fools who refused to enjoy themselvs. Realize that this is only trmporary and so it does not matter what happens and so you are free.
you also mentioned enlightment. What is it???
Enlightment is understanding. No one can understand everything and so noone can be totaly "enlightend". No one can give you understanding they can only give you knowladge. So I agree with you, serching for gurus and wise men so they can enlighten you is a waste of time.
I agree with Steel Hawk and I also agree with Zacier. I recently wrote something in another strand relating to this (for the full text, look in Agnosticism & Atheism)
In my workshops, I teach people that we experience the world as a reflection of our own minds and that if we do not like our experiences, we need to change our minds. Our minds are what house our divinity (not our bodies... that is just the box, the diamond is housed within the box)
quote:
... I came across an article written by Jon Snodgrass, PhD entitled, "Your Special Function according to A Course in Miracles"(ACIM). I had been a student of ACIM and this piqued my interest.
He addressed these types of feelings you are discussing (feelings of incompleteness and longing)in his article. He said, "Whatever you perceive to be the reality of your own guilt, sin, or victimization is the exact polar opposite of your Special Function. What is missing is your gift, your weakness is your strength, your special dysfunction is your special function." I thought about this for a moment and said to myself, "Well, what is my special dysfunction?... I'm fat" (I always have had body image problems... as far back as I can remember... I'm a size 8 now after 2 kids and still want to lose more weight) No, being fat wasn't it... then I thought, "I don't really like myself very much." No, that wasn't it either. Then the thought came, "I don't LOVE myself." With that, I started jumping around the room and thanking everyone who ever hurt me. I realized that these people were all showing me the context to understand what I had been rejecting about myself all along. (the entire account is written in my workbook, for the entire thing, go to www.healingcenter.com.)
When I came to this realization, I understood that all the unhappiness and discontent that I had been experiencing my whole life had to do with my feeling that God (or whatever you want to call the intelligence that permeates the universe) was somehow separate from me. I realized through this experience that I am God and that God dwells within me, God is my intelligence, my emotions, my creativity and my Love. Without me, God is incomplete. Without everyone fully accepting themselves, God is incomplete and so is everyone else (since we are all God... in my opinion.) By rejecting parts of myself, I had been seeing myself as incomplete. Once I could accept myself completely (at least temporarily... 3 steps forward, 2 steps back) then I could see that that thing that I was looking for was within me all along. I just needed to acknowledge and accept myself, wrinkles and all for who I was.
...We don't embrace our own light and therefore, we can not see it... it's like placing a candle in a piece of clay pottery... it only emitts a fraction of its capacity. If we place it in front of a mirror, or several mirrors, we can light up a huge space. We all work as mirrors of each others thoughts about ourselves. If we love ourselves, we will see that reflected in our experience. If we sheild ourselves from ourselves because we reject parts of ourselves, we see that dimness reflected in our experience. We sheild parts of ourselves from ourselves because we judge ourselves as unworthy in certain ways and therefore we sheild our own brilliance from ourselves and the world at large. By embracing ourselves completely, we see ourselves as complete and whole and we understand that we are one with everything and understand our own worth and place in the Universe.
this is from another part of that strand...
quote:
I believe that state of mind was telling you exactly how it is. There is no "you" or "me" there is only "we" as being one with the Universe which is why I say that God is incomplete without all of us. It is my belief (and feel free to discard this if it does not agree with your beliefs) that we all collectively chose to experience this physical world in order to learn who we are. I don't know if you have ever had a crisis in your life, but I have had a couple. I found that by going through really hard times, the good times are magnified and are so much greater than they would be if I did not have the contrast of dispair. I feel that we draw certain experiences to ourselves in order to provide us with the context to understand that the opposite of our negative experience is TRUE REALITY. I believe also that this physical world is an illusion and the only true and real thing is Love and all the feelings associated with that one emotion. I believe that we are LOVE and God is love and that is the essence of our being. We choose to experience this illusion of physical separation in order to understand that we want the opposite of separation to be our reality.
For a long time, I have yearned to experience that Cosmic Unity or Euphoric state that you describe as my normal waking reality... very few have actually achieved this illumined state on a constant basis, we call them Masters. I also understand that I must go through lessons of dispair in order to truly know that it is Unity that I want and not separation. (are you getting this?)
quote:
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Was God in that place? Why can't I find that feeling with meditation or prayer or chants? My logical mind tells me it's because the "something" doesn't really exist. And if that's so, it doesn't really matter how I feel about myself -- there's really no one home. Are there any happy agnostics out there?
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God is in every place, in your heart, in that forest, in life itself. God is the intelligence that tells the trees to lose their leaves and shut down for winter and is the intelligence that tells the seed to grow into a tree. God is the force and intelligence that created the cosmos and everything in it. God is the intelligence that permeates your being and every being. God is in your best friend and in your enemy, God is in everywhere and everything and it is impossible to be apart from or separate from God.
It only matters what you think of yourself if you want to experience happiness. God wants us all to be happy because God wants to be happy and God wants to experience that Euphoric state that you momentarily experienced. God can only do this if All of God experiences God as God and as love. Without your truly loving yourself, God is incomplete and so am I and so is everyone else. Once we all recognize who we are, we will all experience that ecstatic state forever... as God. This is what we all want. It is called many names, experiencing God, Bliss, Love, Euphoria, heaven, they are all different ways of describing One and ALL which is who we are. I am you and you are me and there is no separation (which you have experienced.)
Once we (as a species)stop living in fear and hurting each other and start loving each other and living completely in love, we will then transcend our notion of separation and understand that bliss as our reality.
--Kerri
Steel Hawk,
tell us, please, how many prophets, gurus, and people claiming to know the truth have you consulted? Have you read such books as 'A Course In Miracles', Tom Carpenter's 'Dialogue On Awakening', Neale Walsch's 'Communications with God', Jane Roberts' Seth books, or any of the many channeled messages that were published in the now defunct 'SpiritWeb' site? If you have not read any of these, you are not qualified to make such a sweeping indictment of spiritual advisers. Or tell us the names of the prophets, gurus, etc. that you did consult. What exactly did they say that led you to your negative judgment? If you actually did study them, you probably did not understand their messages.
Also, who are all these "parasites" that fill the world? Since no man is above the other, as you say, you yourself would be one of the parasites, right? Tell us, please, what have YOU done lately to improve the condition of the human race?
Furthermore, how can you be comforted by the fact that physical existence is temporary? Have you ever heard that reincarnation does not end until you have reached a certain level of enlightenment? I can guarantee you that there will be no end of this cycle for you until you stop seeing your fellow humans as parasites.
I can also tell you that you create your own reality based on whatever you believe. Therefore, as long as you believe that enlightenment cannot be taught, you will not benefit from such teachings. If you want to make progress along this line, you need to change your attitude. I would like to suggest that you limit your posts to constructive discussions.
JoWo, you don't see humanity as parasites at all? Personally, we've been leaching the Earth's resources for ages, but then again, we have to to survive. Step back and see the whole picture, man is essentially equal and not one is better than the other. You improve the condition of the human race by simply living. Every experience you have had, every experience you will have, will have touched some other humans in some way that they will learn.
I can see how he is comforted by the fact that life is temporary. Hell, even i am. Life is a beautiful thing, but we will end up leaving it behind and "ascending". This is also all just speculation, but one can dream, can't he?
JoWo, his replies and posts are pretty much the direct truth, there isn't any fluff in it at all...i like that. Again, if you step back from the picture and see the whole thing, really, there is no good nor bad, no right nor wrong, but just the act of being.
~ivan
If one builds a house and lives within that house, is he a parasite to that house?
It is my belief that we created this earth (collectively) as a learning ground for ourselves. I believe we must experience the lessons of the physical world and separation to understand that we all share one mind. This physical world is all temporary and our minds do transcend this realm. I too envy those who have passed because the lessons we learn here are difficult indeed. However, Like JoWo, I agree that we will all incarnate until we ALL reach enlightenment and learn to love and accept each other UNCONDITIONALLY. That means although we might disagree with another, we still see everyone as an infinitely valuable part of the whole, not as parasites within his own house.
--Kerri
Wantsumrice, of course humanity is having a regrettable impact on the environment, caused mainly by corporate greed, and we must do our best to turn this trend around. However, it is not helpful for individuals to indiscriminately criticize others. Such criticism does nothing to improve our world and will invariably backfire to the person who voices it. Yes, I am talking about the whole picture, and yes, we are all equal and there is no good vs. bad from the whole's viewpoint. But the human race would be in much better shape if individuals would extend more love towards one another.
Wantsumrice, perhaps I should also comment on being comforted by the fact that physical life is temporary. Steel Hawk wrote on 28.12.03, "The world is filled with parasites trying to survive. Pointless. My only true comfort is knowing that physical existance (sic) is temporary." This potrays an attitude of rejection. Yet, we know that we create our own reality by what is in our mind. Whatever we experience is a result of our mindset. While one person detests what he sees, others enjoy the good aspects of life. The difference is in the person's mind, not in the reality of life. We all have the freedom to choose our type of experience by how we think and act. When we die, we leave our body behind but not our mind, and we will continue to create our reality depending on our mindset, misery or joy, wherever we are, here or beyond.
Kerri, I believe that you got it right [:)]!
Jo.
Agreed. Life is a piece poetry, delightfully entertaining to some, dreadfully boring for others, and just plain garbage to the rest. The interpretation is in the eye of the beholder.
~ivan
The way I see it is that 99% of humanity is concerned with eeking out an existence which has a bit of happiness. Most are concerned with survival issues..ie...food, healthcare, shelter, education, etc.
The upper 1% are the ones who think the earth is their personal whore who deserves any treatment they see fit to give.
In many ways humanity is like a melting pot. The stuff on the bottom gets burned while the scumm rises to the top.
As far as responsibility goes. I can tell mr. polluter to "stop it!" but chances are he won't. He is responsible, I am not. I do what I can and if its not enough so be it.
Hopefully in the afterlife I will not be so much a leaf in the wind as I am in this world.
Xander
Pointless to post... really it is.
It seems the more I learn the less I want to know.
You begin to realize how futile it all is. Nonetheless writing this post seems rather obtuse. I see a great deal of ignorance all around us. I'm certain a lot of you see the same things; some of you may even regard this author as an ignorant hypocrite.
I'm referring to this forum, teachers, politicians, "holy" men, and the world in general. Layers, upon layers, upon layers of illusions. Designed to steer the herd while the Devil defecates in the wine of your communion. Let us all take a drink and is submerged in the painfully sweet bliss of ignorance.
Like most of you I was raised Christian, until later in my life I questioned my way of thinking. I then decided that an agnostic approach was the most logical belief. However, I still wanted to explore the possibility that there was something else. Christianity didn't give me an acceptable avenue for me to do this, so I studied something that would -- the occult. At first it seemed stupid (and admittedly some of it still does), but then through various experiences it changed my convictions.
But to what end I ask you? I believe I'm more of a ranting lunatic than an enlightened guru. Knowledge to some may be a curse rather than a blessing.
It is logical to believe that the systems of control, manipulation, and illusion are still to some degree present in higher realms of existence. To those of you who believe in Lucifer's revolt this should be obvious, for how else was he able to direct 1/3 of the angels against God? The reverse could also be said by a Satanist and prove the same point. I'm not saying that one being or group holds the key to these systems but rather that they exist. And to those who believe in reincarnation, it in itself is a system of control, manipulation, and illusion. You are forced to evolve spiritually (control), from your experiences you learn what you need to further advance (manipulation), and most of us don't remember our past lives (illusion).
The following may be off on the deep end, but I believe it to be true. I believe for several centuries' beings and societies behind the scenes have been working towards a common goal. That goal I believe is one world government. At first glance the thought of world peace, safety from nuclear extinction, the end of world poverty, and the unity of mankind seems to be a good idea. However, it further increases the system of control, manipulation, and illusion. When one examines the facts, the New World Order seems to be less of a conspiracy and more of an evolving social trend.
Not that it matters. It's just interesting to me. I don't know where I'm going with this. Ah, yes I do, I'm going nowhere [:)]
I suppose to previous post was some type of insane rant. Geesh, I remind myself of Aleister Crowley more and more.
Ceriel N:
"But I'm telling you it's not true! As the pendelum swings it never rests, because we can not know both speed and direction at the same time. "
"we can not know", I didn't say we could know, I said a being of infinite knowledge could know. For example if I roll a pair of dice the outcome is predetermined by variables:
Size of dice, material of dice, speed of dice, position of dice when leaving hand, material dice is falling on, wind speed, etc. If you knew all these variables you could know what the dice would be before they hit. Theres not going to be something "random" the occurs (most likely, unless we get into quantum physics and the butterfly effect, etc, but does that account for spiritual beings as well?)
zaicer:
"The world is what you think it is!!!!!!
If you think that there are no real answers then you are right becouse each answer is relativ to what we precive. Nothing is true untill we decide it is. "
New age propoganda, the world is what it is. We just can percieve things to be true, real, or part of our reality. And I suppose thats all that really matters eh? Who cares about truth, cause we can decide it. Heh, yeah.
JoWo:
"I can also tell you that you create your own reality based on whatever you believe. Therefore, as long as you believe that enlightenment cannot be taught, you will not benefit from such teachings. If you want to make progress along this line, you need to change your attitude. I would like to suggest that you limit your posts to constructive discussions."
More new age b.s. .. yeah I can see this is getting more pointless..
Okay here is the answer to WHY ENLIGHTENMENT CANNOT BE TAUGHT:
A person who is "Enlightened" would not teach someone how to achieve the state. Why do you think they always meditate? That you'll have to answer on your own.
Jesh. I mean really... think I'm a crack pot I don't care. But until you go through the same thing my words are meaningless. I'm done here.
"the world is what you think it is"
Does not mean that the world will change acording to your expectations.
You are right the world is what it is, but we cant realy precive the world as a whole.
"the world is what you think it is" means that you have your own picture of the world and you will act acordingly.
If a paranoid person believs that he is being followed he will turn around and look if someone is following him. This does not mean that someone is realy tailing him.
BTW
I tryed to look up "butterfly effect" in the dictionary but I didnt find it . Could someone explain what it is.
Thanx
"Butterfly Effect" How funny, a guy I went to high school with just produced that movie which is coming out later this month.
That is Chaos theory (I am no scientist so this might be a good one for the Physicists to explain--- JoWo???) It states that the effect of the flap of a butterflys wings will have the capability of creating a typhoon on the other side of the world. In other words, every action has an affect in ways we could not possibly know. My typing on my keyboard may cause some air gust in 5 years that will lift a cow off of the ground in a tornado.
--Kerri
I thought the "butterfly affect" is the theory that the physics of one side of the universe will be constant with another side of the universe.
~ivan
I don't know if this moron is still here, but I like to say something about one thing:
"You are forced to evolve spiritually (control)"
NO, we are not forced to do anything. That's why we have free will.
And I can go on and on telling you what is not right about things you've said but it really won't matter so...
Have a nice life and I hope you will become more happy.
As for humanity as a whole is parasitic on our planet. Why not , it has worked so good for us in the past . However now we might have begun to tinkle in our own bed(pollution etc) and we will prolly change our way as soon as we see some real effects of that(scientific profe isnt always cutting trough as we arnt totally logical beings .)
As for searhing for gurus being a waste of time . Who knows what someone that uses most their time doing whatever they do can get out of it ,look at what people dedicating their life to a physical aspect can do . The world is full of people if not knowing the truth they know some truth or something thats can be wrong but working as a truth until a real one shows itself.
I for one would be willing to hear "enlightend" people talk , the worst that could happen is i get a good laugh. You realy dont need to buy into everthing a "enlightend" says , heck even Robert Bruce wich i can see knows much i would like to know(or atleast hear about certain subjects) seems far out on other subjects . It might be he is right , or not.I dont care. And anything i cant verify logically , i would either experience for myself (and perhaps draw other conclusions) or reject it .
Also remember that being enlighted (whatever that ever means) doesnt mean being a good teacher , ive seen MANY that apperantly is incredible good at what they do ,can hardly explain tying shoelaces or brushing teeths if their life depends on it!yes their so BAD!.
quote:
Originally posted by Jon_88
Also remember that being enlighted (whatever that ever means) doesnt mean being a good teacher , ive seen MANY that apperantly is incredible good at what they do ,can hardly explain tying shoelaces or brushing teeths if their life depends on it!yes their so BAD!.
Thats becouse their world is diferent from ours. They learn things that r so fare advanced that we dont understand them, but there are also many who talk a lot that seems important but realy isnt. Those who teach the worng lessons are even more dengerous then the people who openly opose spiritual development.
Okay how did this degenerate from someone talking about time being an illusion to people calling each other stupid. Never mind, sometimes I just wonder...
Going back to the original post, I'd like to add a bit more dimension for y'all to consider, and I'm not going to say that I believe this, but it is just another theory, like it or lump it.
Going with the idea that time is fixed, that it exists all at once (the same way a table exists, if the table was a universe maybe the little people inside the table as they travel from one side to another have similar discussions to this), goes against some peoples ideas that hey, I have freedom of choice, so you can't possibly convince me that everything that was, is and ever will be is already set in stone.
Well, there is a way to accomodate both sides of the argument, and its theoretically within the realms of physical possibility, if science would acknowledge the existance of dimensions other than the first, second and third (with which I am sure we are all familiar).
I will explain how this can be, but I'll start from scratch and try to avoid confusion about what I'm getting at.
Imagine there is a fourth dimension, which is time. Objects in the 3rd dimension extend into the fourth dimension as well, and are quite solid in the fourth dimension. What we see as a table is just a 'slice' of the 4D table, which is a continuum of tables, which stretches back to when the table was a tree and when the tree was a seed and when the seed fell out of its mummy tree... And of course into the future where the table comes into contact with cups and people and computers and eventually breaks, gets thrown out, someone finds it at the dump and uses it again, the house burns down, the particles break down into smoke and ash, and so on...
"Okay"! you scream, "how does this let me have freedom of choice, if its all happened???"
Well, if its possible for there to be a fourth dimension, why not a fifth? Imagine for a moment the table in 4D, where its like this snakey table colored continuum that eventually turns into a pile of ash in the 'future' and came from a whole bunch of chemicals in the ground in the past. Add another dimension, equally solid, where subtle variations in what happened to the table exist. This is where your brain should start aching if you're trying to use your pathetic measly 3D brain to comprehend 5D reality, but keep imagining (have a coffee if you need). Imagine this fifth dimension is a continuum of the 4 dimensions stacked up together. The 4D table maybe didn't exist in one direction because the seed didn't germinate because the water didn't get it at the right time, and the other way maybe it didn't burn down in a house fire, but lasted thousands of 'years' (in 4d, if it were a line, you'd have a 100 year long ruler with lines along it so you can measure years, ha just kidding)...
What I am saying is it may be possible that not only every time exists, but also every possibility. Just add a couple of dimensions. I don't want to go all 6D on your butt just yet because I can't even think where you have every time, and every possibility, what more could you add? Ouch, just hurt my brain trying to think about it. Its like trying to 'see' infinity. But worse.
If the above scenario is true, that there are 5D's, then keep in mind your brain also occupies every time and possibility in some form. Freedom of choice could simply be an unconscious act of guiding ourselves through the realm of possibility, just like you can walk down a path and choose to take the left fork which goes to the beautiful lookout gardens, or the right fork which takes you down the dark avenue of trees where someone jumps out and mugs you...
Actually, just had a thought. Maybe consciousness resides in the 6th dimension... dunno, this is too much for my feeble mind to contemplate.
I say to you white man that do to not heed these words but discover the treasure inside you.
Follow no mans teachings of spiritual ways, only use these teachings to learn and contomplate there value. Many people will come to the guru or priest and ask for knowledge unknown to them. They will come and say "What is the meaning of life? Why I am here? What will my future hold?". And the true master will say "I am no one, going nowhere, there is no I, only nothingness". And the pupil will leave confused, disappointed, and not see the true wisdom in his words.
The fact is the dream is already done, but never will be. We are just in part of the cycle. An illusion time, what binds us here. We are in a constant time spin. A loop. Our universe, including time is part of a giant cycle. Everything that has happened in this physical unvierse happens exactly the same over and over and over. We are just consciouness inhabiting the experience, the existance.
To learn perhaps. Yes.. I am no one, going nowhere, I am nothing.