Karma of Killing

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I have not studied anything about Karma. I just know what little I have picked up, though I am starting to believe in Karma. From my understanding of it, it is much more than a written set of rules. This meaning that there is a time to kill, a time to fight, etc. It is not the act of killing when it is needed that is harmful. It is enjoying killing, killing for pleasure that is harmful. I think that the intent is more important than the act, for the most part anyway. Let me ask this question, is it ok to kill if a force is trying to destroy your way of life? If a group rose up to overthrow your nation, would you find it ok to kill then? It is good that one would not want to kill anyone, but there seems to be times when it is necessary. This can be a very difficult issue to deal with.

[Fenris]

Very interesting question/statement!!! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

Im sure most would agree that it is ok to kill to save yourself or someone you love. And I would kill to save my freedom, and it seems that many great warriors have fought and died to give me my freedom which I enjoy. I guess that once again it is a matter of intent. If you are killing to stop repression then surely that is better than killing for greed. Perhaps this is where to live spiritualy and to suvive as a part of a society cross lines.



Veni Vidi Vici

[Joe]

Great question. Is there ever a simple answer with Karma? Since this is a Philosophy board, I hope more than one answer (and some waffling) is allowed.

(A) You could say (above) that it's dependent on motive, and that the desire for the highest good for the highest number of people generates karmic benefit, even if you have to injure/kill someone for that to happen.

(B) But what if it is karmically wrong to consider oneself before another (ie, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "He who saves his life shall lose it") and that in a one-on-one, you saved your own life by killing someone else, you would incur a great karmic debt. If you allowed them to injure/kill you, you may be dead but in the universal scheme you have gained much karmic benefit.

(C) What if you are the instrument of Karma in such a situation, even if you are the aggressor? If you kill a person whose life karma required injury/death, it can't be wrong for you to deliver that punishment.

(D) What if, despite all your best motives and desires, your karma demands that you die and the other person, evil as they are, is just a vehicle for your death. All the right principles cannot change the fact that it would be wrong for you to live, and that it is right for you to die.

(E) Or you could adopt a non-dualist approach, and in the words of the Bhagavad Gita vv.19-20:

quote:"Who thinks that he can be a slayer,
Who thinks that he is slain,
Both these have no right knowledge:
He slays not, is not slain.

Never is he born nor dies;
Never did he come to be, nor will he ever come to be again:
Unborn, eternal, everlasting he-primeval:
He is not slain when the body is slain."

The illusion of duality, including you, the attacker and Karma itself, is what must be slain.

Who can say if any single theory is right? Great question!

[distant bell]

There are many different wievs on karma- I don´t belive in the old indian one that every action gives a counter action. I belive that if there is such a thing as karma, it will be to tach a lesson- not to punish.
So If you go out and kill someone in self defence, why should that give a bad karma?
If you on the other hand kill someone because of some other reason, hate, envy... then perhaps you need to learn a lesson to get over these emotions.
But If you later in this life evolve and learn more, then there is no reason for karma comming back to you in the next life.

Personally I think this is what can be learnd from Jesus teachings.
He sai that If you really regrett then you shall be forgiven- and that
is just it. If you really regrett, than you have learnd your lesson and no
longer need to get a kermik reaktion in the next life. (of course this has
nothing with forgivness to do...)

Felix

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

[cainam_nazier]

Here is yet another way to look at it or a question to ask.

It was said earlier that intent is a big part of it.  That I agree on.  Even in self defence to purposly kill is not karmicly good.  But if one just lives in the moment and is not thinking of the action but of only the defense of ones self or loved and ends in mortality than there is nothing to worry about.  If you go into the situation that if some one hurts or trys to hurt me or a loved one I will kill them then that is bad.

Look at strictly in the matter of the defence of others and even the freedoms them and yourself.   Some one said they would kill in defence of these things, but I ask you, is it that you would kill for these things? or is that you would give your life for these things?  It is not the willingness to kill in defence that would "save" you karmicly but it is the willness to put your own life out on the block to be judged.  

Me personally I would do all that is in my power not to kill even if the intent of the other is to take that which is most dear to me.   But I would defend with my life that which I love and hold dear and one would have to kill me in order to bring harm to them.  And because of this one would also have to thier life on the line as well and we will be judged together.



David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

[Vladimir]

Very good question!
The concept of karma is often misunderstood by most of the people. Further more,
this ancient eastern wisdom is often misinterpreted by many western so called
"gurus". There is no such thing as good or bad karma. The concept of good and bad,
or any other duality, is product of human mind and, in fact, this is a key element that
generates karma. Also, the concept of justice developed by humans has nothing to
do with karma. Every (karmic) event is neutral in his nature and has no deeper or
hidden meaning but to push us towards spirituality, so we can learn and grow. If we
see some event as good or bad that is because we labeled it as such in our mind with
our thoughts. Such labeling generates more karma and so on - being is trapped in
cycle of birth and death and bound to live trough desired situations. As I said, events
are neutral, they doesn't generate any new events, our thoughts are those which
make new karma. Every our thought, together with billions of thoughts of other
beings, is influencing the whole universe, shaping it and creating future events. It is
some sort of "wish factory", except that laws of nature doesn't recognize which
thoughts are "good" for us and which are "bad". They consider every our desire,
fear, hatred and every other thought as our "wish" and "work hard" to make it
happen in matter universe. So, good Lord is fulfilling all wishes of all beings with no
exception and the world in which we are living today is exactly the one we have
together desired in the past, including our individual lives. So, actual killing is done
much earlier in thoughts of a human being, when it comes to a real life situation it is
too late. No one can escape his karma, every man (being) is bound to harvest,
sooner or later, what he sow in his thoughts. In another words, if you are constantly
thinking of killing someone the laws of karma will fulfill your "wish" and give you the
opportunity to do so. The matter body of every being is just a cosmic machine that
works, moves, talk and act under the laws of karma and it is a great deception when
we think that we are doing all of this. But real freedom that is given to us is freedom
of choice how to react on the event in our mind. For example:
If someone is performing the karma of killing the another person but with thoughts of
helping him and loving him, he generates "good" future karma for himself.
If someone is performing the karma of saving the another person from death but with
thoughts of hatred and wishing him harm, he generates "bad" karma for himself.
If someone is performing any karma without thoughts, without seeing good or bad in
it, just accepting it as it is, he doesn't generate any future karma, and that is the path
of spirituality, the path of ending the cycle of birth and death.

Best wishes, Vladimir

[MJ-12]

gr

[steveb]

Greetings all    MJ-12, Most Buddhist circles pescribe to "the doctrine of the many selfs" ,in western terms you might say, "the doctrine of the many ego's".
             There not saying the whole self is bad, but they are saying that the greater part of it is, I for one think there right on the mark.
              What is the purpose of persuing a spiritual path?.To become enlightened, to become one with it, the essence. Look at what we call the self, how much of it, the essence  is in the self, not much.
              Why do think most people have problems getting in to the astral,and once they get there, cant see it it for what it is. It's because there's  not much of the essence with us.
               The true Buddhist way is hard to comprehend, it threatens what most people hold so dear. Try talking to a buddhist in relation to the astral, the lower astral body is to them what they call the "Bardo body".
               Most buddhists from what I can gather, find it strange that you should want explore the Bardo realms. There path to enlightenment hopes to bypass the Bardo body phase at death. You would do well to look at what the buddhists realIy do think in regards to the self.

Regards  steve

[Fenris]

Violence is a reality of our world, even the Dali Lama has carried a gun for protection. Many of us here practice martial arts, and have perhaps at some stage wondered what it would be like if combat ever wnet all the way. Or what if we get conscriped into a war, and we have to kill. There is a strong potential that someday the horrible could happen and we could have to kill to save ourselves or someone we love.

My question is this- As a person who persues spritual evolution, what would the karmic effect of killing someone (in defence of course!) be. Could there be any worse karma than killing a person. Or would the fact that it was a matter of survival negate the negative karma?

Veni Vidi Vici