... so now we know.
Glad I'm not a christian! [:)]
I think you'll get a few interesting replies to this one.
Sarah
Anyone can quote teh bible to say anything they want. it's an old facist tradition. What about the missing sections of the Bible. Oh, and you need to quote from the original text, not sonskrit converted to Latin, censored by roman emporers, converted 3 times to middle english, re-written numerous times to suit the church, converterd to Italian, converted into English, converted into modern english......it loses something in translation.
What about II Corinthians? That's the section that deals with Physchic healing and many other talents.
Good think I'm not a christian and subject to all the baggage associated with that particular fanclub of God!
(grumbling) But I wanna be a christian and I wanna play out of my body and ocassionally talk to ghosts, and maybe play with a spell or too.
Damn my free will... ooooohhh wait. That hits too close to the topic. [}:)]
I must be unobservant--I have noticed no Christian bent to these forums, except in the modern Christianity one. I must be reading the wrong threads.
As I see it, a Christian has two choices:
a) follow the Bible literally and do many unpleasant, unrealistic things that may even be illegal
b) evaluate the Bible for themselves (with help from their God) and interpret it as best they can to apply to the modern world. This is what most people do, even if they don't want to admit it. It's a way of letting the religion evolve.
So if they're interpreting, and can see a way to be Christian and follow occult practices, I'm not going to argue with them. Most importantly, it's because I don't CARE to tell people how to practice their religion. I have many better things to focus on, like my own spiritual workings.
I see your point and believe a Christian should certainly be educated about what the Bible (as we have it) says. However, if they evaluate the literature for themselves and they have a good, well thought-out reason for their beliefs and practices, why should we harrass them?
Well said Naiad
I couldn't have put it better myself. [^]
Sarah
Dont take the bible litteraly, thats a mistake alot of people make. Im a christian and I do telekinesis and I can remote veiw. I dont beleive its wrong, and I dont think im commiting a sin. I do not, however, think you should envoke other gods into your body. Well for that matter I dont beleive in other gods.
Yes. Everything is a sin. So don't do anything. But don't do nothing, because that's a sin, too.
So, don't live. Because to live means to sin. But don't kill yourself. Becasue that's a sin.
And don't do anything you can naturally do, even if by accident. that's a sin. You have abilities you're not supposed to use.
But don't not do them, because that's a sin, becasue you're deny gifts from God.
And remember, throw stones at whores, because they sin, and deserve it. But don't throw stones, because that's a sin.
Why be a witch if you believe in Christ? Christians believe that all things are of and through Christ and the father, not spells and enchantments. The bible speaks of witchcraft as evil because it takes away from Christ as the source of all miracles and all things spiritual, which is Christ Himself. The bible was also changed quite drastically in the dark ages, when witchcraft was very much an abomination, and priests being the only ones who could read the bible in those time often created their own version in order to coincide with their own beliefs. Christ doesn't want all you self proclaimed witches to be put to death or chastised, but as long as you indulge in magic, you lose sight of TRUE power which is spiritual and governed by Christ.
Am I the only one that sees it?
The bible was re-written to stomp out competition. The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans. 2 Commandments are specifically written to stomp out Pagan beliefs. Interesting since the original Authors were Jewish. Heck the original bible said "Everlasting Reincarnation" and was re-written to "everlasting life" by the emporer Constatine's wife because heaven has no value if you re-incarnate. And heaven is the reward for the "faithful", no reward and what's the point? And You can't have a Heaven if there's no Hell, I mean where's the incentive?
The bible is very metaphoric, in which case some people still take it very literally. Regardless, a lot of what is in there is open for interpretation as there is not exactly a clear mesesage in every passage, making it possible for anyone, more specifically christians to develop a seperate understanding of what the book actually means.
Although it would be nice for the christian occult dabblers if it all really was added in during translation and all the stuff affirming occult practices was left out, but the original hewbrew texts of the old testament still say to stone sorcers, witches, and those who practice divination to death, and all the rest of that stuff. The original greek gospel still speaks of jesus and his disciples casting out spirits of mediumship, fortune telling, sooth saying, divinatoin etc.
And I think saying "Don't take it literally" is seriously avoiding reality. How can you not take "and all those who practice magick shalt be outside the walls of christ, and cast into the lake of fire" literally? please! wake up.
Risu no Kairo is correct, he is just displaying an extremely small sample of the inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible. The rulings and teachings of the bible are very anti-life, and of course you are meant to literally do what it literally says to do, Naiaid, according to matthew the way you tell if someone is a christian is if they are immune to all poisons, speak in tongues and take up serpents. I think it would have been made a little bit clearer if the bible wasn't meant to be taken literally on what it says people can and cannot do, and what it says God wants people to do. From the christian stand-point the bible is the word of God so read it. You could never be sure if you were "intepreting it properly with the help of God" now, could you? the only thing you're meant to be certain of is that the bible is the literal word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit.
If there are things you want to do like oh, say occult dabbling, don't be like a wiccan and take out of your religion what you don't like, perhaps you should consider finding a religion more compatable with your life, what you want to do and your individuality?
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Am I the only one that sees it?
The bible was re-written to stomp out competition. The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans. 2 Commandments are specifically written to stomp out Pagan beliefs. Interesting since the original Authors were Jewish. Heck the original bible said "Everlasting Reincarnation" and was re-written to "everlasting life" by the emporer Constatine's wife because heaven has no value if you re-incarnate. And heaven is the reward for the "faithful", no reward and what's the point? And You can't have a Heaven if there's no Hell, I mean where's the incentive?
Rastus, do you have any sources for the so-called "ever lasting reincarnation"? We actually do not know what was changed, added in and taken out by constantine.
"The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans."
A pagan is simply someone who worships a god that is not of christianity, judaism or islam. A pagan is not someone who is "close to nature" and "worships nature". There were plenty of Pagans in the middle east at the time, every non-jew, for that matter. We of course know very little about the Celts to have any proper insight into their religion, but it is almost certain that magick and witchraft did not make up a large portion of their religion at all, and if they practised magick and witchcraft at all it would have been a fringe art where you have one witch or wizard per village (and obviously they would not have used the victorian era methods of ritual magick in wicca). It was long, long after the bible was written that the christians came to Europe. And I'd probably say that the commandmants are specifically written to be commandments for christians and jews.
Risu no Kairu.
Not Risu no Kairo.
Actually the word "Pagan" can most literally be translated as "country folk".
In the time that Emperor Constantine introduced christianity, or more accurately, Roman Catholocism (sp?) to the world (as his version of christianity which is now main stream appears to be quite different from the teachings of Jesus himself), it was the "simple" country folk that retained the ways of woshipping both God and Goddess.
As Rastus said, Constantine was set on literally stomping out the competition, but in order to do so, and bring in this new religion, he had to make quite a few changes, blend in some existing "pagan" practices, and compile a holy book that would be written in such a way as to ensure loyalty among its followers.
What Constantine saw as the main opponents to Christianity were the followers of the Goddess, as this concept directly opposed his masculine christian God. As a result millions of women were slaughtered, accused of being witches, as they were seen as being the ones directly responsible for preaching the "old" religions.
The AlphaOmega,
I find what you are saying to be exactly the kind of "controlled" thinking that Constantine had in mind - intolerance of anything that is outside of Bible doctrine.
Tell me, what is the difference between a spell and a prayer?
What is the diffeerence between an observance such as Communion or any of the sacrements and enchantments?
You speak out against witches so can I assume you have enough knowledge and experience in the practices of wisecraft to be able to know what it is you're talking about here. Or do you say all this because some book or some minister told you this is how you should think, and not actually gain any real first hand experience?
And for the record I AM a witch, and for 16 years of my life WAS a christian.
I've lived and studied christianity long enough that I know all the arguments that have been used against "pagan" and other secular practices, as well as all the arguments agains other christian sect such as the Seventh Day Adventists, The JW's, etc.
- James.
James,
The worship of God and Goddess is a middle eastern tradition, most prominetly found in mesopatomia. The reason why so many women were slaughtered had nothing to do with goddess worship, or wicca. They were slaughtered because many of the preists considered their home-making, decorating, nesting and medicines to be thoroughly of the devil. It should also note that the inquisition happened in the 1400's.
Pagan refers to people who worship god(s) other then those of christianity,judaism and islam, regardless of what pagan literally means.
It's not just a middle eastern tradition. Worship of both God Goddess can be found in ancient Celtic traditions, as well as Aztec, African, Northern european, and many other ancient cultures. It seems that except for Christianity, and Islam all of the old religions recognised a balance between the masculine and feminine. In fact if anything, the feminine was more highly regarded as the woman was recognised as the "giver of life".
There were also crusades against witches around 1200ad instigated by Alexander IV, and also records of being killed as witches back as early as around 770. But you're right in that the 1400's was without a doubt the worst time.
Regards,
James.
"Naiaid, according to matthew the way you tell if someone is a christian is if they are immune to all poisons, speak in tongues and take up serpents."
Eh? That's what I'm getting at. Can any Christian fit that bill? Doubtful. If so, does that mean they aren't Christian? A modern-day Christian must look at that passage and say either:
a) I need to interpret that literally and take up snake handling and start getting immune to poisons and figure out how to speak in tongues
or
b) Well, that passage requires some interpretation, doesn't it?
I think the important part is to examine your motivation for caring so much what other people believe. Unless you are a pastor or fervent Christian hoping to convert the uneducated masses, such things generally belie ego issues and insecurities.
And I hope you're using "you" in a general sense, as I am neither Christian, Wiccan, or any religion, for that matter.
I don't have a argument but wanted to say that a couple weeks ago I was meditating about a certain problem. After several minutes, all of a sudden I had a vision of me being turned in by a loved one and being burned at the stake..[:O] Mind you I have never thought that one of my incarnations was a witch, but now I wonder..[;)]
It is amazing when I get these "flashes" they happen in mere seconds but I get so much information in those few seconds...very weird.
Nay (http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/tiere/animal-smiley-085.gif)
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I have had the vision of being hung for being a witch.
I was surprised when it happened to me. I thought..no way, I saw and felt that wrong, but eh..I didn't, I was cooked well done.[B)] plus, unfortunatly it felt...right.
Did you feel strange when you saw your vision?
Nay
Do you consider yourself to be a witch, nay?
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Originally posted by aryanknight666
Do you consider yourself to be a witch, nay?
No not really, I use to study it years..and I mean YEARS ago..but it didn't seem to be my nitch. Seems I had other things that worked better for me. If I was to go with my vision, I'd say it was my past life speaking to me in my youth and I was just trying to figure it out by reading and researching something that perked my interest at the time.
I think if my mind was into it, I could be quite the witch though..[:D] I did own a black cat at one time, does that count?
Nay [;)]
quote:
Originally posted by Rastus
Am I the only one that sees it?
The bible was re-written to stomp out competition. The competition was mostly the ancient Celts and Pagans. 2 Commandments are specifically written to stomp out Pagan beliefs. Interesting since the original Authors were Jewish. Heck the original bible said "Everlasting Reincarnation" and was re-written to "everlasting life" by the emporer Constatine's wife because heaven has no value if you re-incarnate. And heaven is the reward for the "faithful", no reward and what's the point? And You can't have a Heaven if there's no Hell, I mean where's the incentive?
What's your source for these assertions?
In any case, I myself am a Christian who believes in Heaven, but not Hell. A relationship with truth and the divine is its own incentive, regardless of the form it takes.
As for the original post, there is a lot in the Old Testament that we don't follow anymore; particularly stoning and various forms of animal sacrifice. I think it's important to remember the goal of the OT and what YHWH was doing -- He was taking a small group of people and introducing them to ethical monotheism, a concept that was completely radical and unprecedented at the time. In order for this to succeed, there had to be a complete break from any vestige or appearance of the old Pagan practices. The results were occasionally harsh, but I believe it was the only alternative to utter failure. As it was, the ancient Israelites lapsed back into Pagan practices numerous times in their history; this is documented all throughout the OT.
Also, if you look at some of the things God was trying to prevent, I think they make sense. As many here would probably point out, consulting with spirits is potentially risky business, perhaps especially if you're an ancient person who is probably illiterate and uneducated, with very little solid knowledge of science. Under those circumstances, I'm sure spiritual con-artists flourished even moreso than they do today. Then there's the fact that if you really do manage to contact a spirit, you really have no idea what you're getting or what their intentions might be. It'd be a bit like facing a dire situation in your life, and seeking advice from a random anonymous person on the internet, without knowing anything about their credentials.
That said, I think things are a bit different now than they were 5000+ years ago when these things were written. As a Christian, I'm perfectly okay with things discussed here like astral projection and lucid dreaming, but on the grounds that I associate them with natural abilities inherent in human nature, and not with any sort of Pagan religious practice.
And, lest we forget, there are also numerous biblical passages which describe experiences of astral projection, mystical visions, prophecy, prophetic dreams, and the like.
The reason why spirit mediumship and contacting the dead was not condoned is because according to "god" you cannot contact the dead and the only people you will be contacting are demons.
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but on the grounds that I associate them with natural abilities inherent in human nature, and not with any sort of Pagan religious practice.
It amazes me that as a christian you have not heard of inherent sin.
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Originally posted by aryanknight666
The reason why spirit mediumship and contacting the dead was not condoned is because according to "god" you cannot contact the dead and the only people you will be contacting are demons.
Chapter and verse?
Actually, in 1 Sam. 28, King Saul consults with the Witch of Endor, and asks her to raise the spirit of Samuel. When ol' Sam makes his appearance, he does appear rather ticked about having been disturbed from his eternal rest, but the text gives no indication that it was anyone other than him.
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It amazes me that as a christian you have not heard of inherent sin.
Oh, I have. However, I also know that this doctrine did not come into being until several centuries after the life of Christ.
Even if the doctrine was true though, I fail to see why astral projection would be seen as inherently sinful. If anything, the more prevalent historically Christian tradition (seemingly carried over from the Gnostics, oddly enough) is to see the *body* and its appetites as sinful, and long to leave it and its vices behind, so as to be reunited with God.
Not that I believe that either, though. To me, the body is just a vehicle; a temporary gift (and occasionally a curse, heh) we can use to have experiences and learn lessons that wouldn't be possible otherwise.
It's an old old trick to quote scriptures to justify your actions. I see no problem with Christians practicing metaphysics, since the bible says it's normal and your right. It also says to burn witches, and actually says anything you want if you have a few hours an a search engine...
Everyone has their favorite Passages:
CO2 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
CO1 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
CO1 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
CO1 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
CO1 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
CO1 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
CO1 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
CO1 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
CO1 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
CO1 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
CO1 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Being born, raised, and having followed christianity since i was a wee one, i feel pretty qualified to say that it has good intentions, but they've been buried under generations of misinterpretation and abuse. The Bible has FANTASTIC lessons from the Christ that show anyone in the world how to live regardless of religion, birthright, gender or color. Too bad that message has been butchered so badly. Thank God there are enough people who have been able to channel the Truth.
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Being born, raised, and having followed christianity since i was a wee one, i feel pretty qualified to say that it has good intentions, but they've been buried under generations of misinterpretation and abuse.
Good intentions? Matt. 10:34-36, luke 12:51, Isaiah 13:9-16
Jesus said that he came to bring the sword, to destroy families and turn parents against their children, to turn nations against nations, to divide nations, to divide single races and to cause conflict. He said he would not have any pity on pregnant or nursing women when he came to take vengenace, and that people would watch their women being raped and their children being cut to peices before their eyes.
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The Bible has FANTASTIC lessons from the Christ that show anyone in the world how to live regardless of religion, birthright, gender or color. Too bad that message has been butchered so badly. Thank God there are enough people who have been able to channel the Truth.
I agree the message has been butchered so badly. People beleive jesus taught love, compassion and mercy. What a pity they beleive in such crap. Do you beleive that what is written in the bible is
not the truth according to what you are saying? how then do you know what the "real" truth is?
"regardless of religion, birthright, gender or color"
Jesus taught only to jews, he did not teach to anyone else. He did not help non-jews. He reffered to non-jews as gentiles and (rabbid) dogs. Whenever a non-jew came to him for lessons or help, he degarded them by calling them dogs and chasing them away. Also how can the teacings of christ be for someone of any religion? He taught he is the ONLY way to god, the only way through god is to him, anything else will get you thrown in the lake of fire. He critized people of other religions and their ways, and on the day of judgement he will cast people of all religions into the lake of fire.
As for "fantastic lessons on how to live", well;
If I were to follow christs example, I would not help people of my own race. I would tell them I am not here to help dogs. matthew 10 5-6, Matthew 15:24, matthew 7:6, matthew 15:26, mark 7:26-27
I would not work to earn a living. I would leave it up to "god" to give me money. When jesus and his disciples were hungry, they simply stole whatever food they wanted.
Matthew 6:25-34, Matt. 12:1-2, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1-2.
I would spend any extra change on myself instead of perhaps dropping it to the needy on the streets.
Mark 14:3-7. Mark 14:7
I would hate my family and disrespect my mother. Jesus treated his mother with disrespect, rudely calling her "woman" when he spoke
John 2:4, 19:26
I would not consider my bioligcal father to be my father. I would not call anyone on earth my father.
Matthew 23:9
There are alot of others but I dont feel like mentioning them all.
Its funny really, that if you look a christianity its sorta like magic. At the beginning of church you pray, which is called the Invocation. Then you pray to God to do things for you like wizards (or what have you)do with other gods. I think magick is only wrong if you use it for evil or worship the devil.
Thanks Wronski Feint. [:)]
That's just what I was getting at.
Prayer & invocation - seems to meto be the same thing especially if it's for good purposes like healing, or bringing about something useful. But according to christian doctrine, it depends which side of the fence you're on as to whether it's good or evil!
I sometimes wonder what most christians think of one of the most important "rules" of whichcraft - "do what you will but harm none!" I wonder how much ministers in days gone by considered this rule as they were killing people accused of being witches.
- James.
The reason why you see similarities between magic and christianity is because either victorian era ritual magick is based of christian rites or christianity ripped alot of its rites and rituals off ritual witchcraft.
You're missing the point Wronski, all other religions are meant to be worshipping of the devil - and all magick is meant to come from the devil. According to christianity ALL magick is evil. Thats what it means when it says "evil" - just that, something that "god" says is evil. Evil is in the eye of the beholder.
I think you will find worship of the devil to be very scarce.
Modern LaVeyan Satanists are for the most part athiests and don't beleive in satan as a real being.
Traditional Satanists beleive Satan to be a real being, but they do NOT call him "the devil" and do not think of themselves as "Devil Worshippers".
I personally am a traditional satanist. My soul is dedicated to satan, signed in blood.
Ave Satanas
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Originally posted by aryanknight666
Good intentions? Matt. 10:34-36, luke 12:51, Isaiah 13:9-16
Jesus said that he came to bring the sword, to destroy families and turn parents against their children, to turn nations against nations, to divide nations, to divide single races and to cause conflict. He said he would not have any pity on pregnant or nursing women when he came to take vengenace, and that people would watch their women being raped and their children being cut to peices before their eyes.
Context, context, context. Jesus wasn't *aiming* to turn people against each other -- he was warning his followers that this was what would inevitably happen. It's not really all that surprising -- once some Jews started embracing Christianity, the non-Christian Jews often reacted violently, sometimes even causing conflict within families. This is what happens anytime you introduce a radical new ideology to conservative religious people. It'd be a bit like having a modern fundamentalist Christian family where one member converted to LaVeyan Satanism. Said member would likely be disowned or worse.
As for the bits about vengeance, the "end of the age," etc., you're again ripping this violently out of context. All of these were predictions about the imminent Roman-Jewish war in 70AD. His message consisted of warning anyone who would listen that the old order of things was about to be done away with, so get out while you still can and don't be swept up in the consequences. There is evidence that the Christians in Jerusalem understood Jesus to mean exactly what I'm telling you he meant -- as soon as they saw the armies approaching, they fled into the mountains as per Jesus' explicit instructions. This is recorded by the historian Eusebius.
Those who chose to stay brought about their own destruction; Jesus needn't have lifted a finger. Ironically thinking that this was their "battle between light and darkness" in which the "coming" messiah would deliver victory, they slaughtered the Roman garrison stationed there, provoking them into all out war in 63AD. By the year 70 (7 year tribulation ring a bell, anyone?) the walls fell, the temple was destroyed, the city razed to the ground, and all its inhabitants slaughtered, scattered or enslaved.
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Jesus taught only to jews, he did not teach to anyone else. He did not help non-jews.
The message of the gospel writers and Paul is that the ideal was for Jesus to come for the Jews, and have them be the "light" to the rest of the world. What exactly do you think Jesus would have meant to the average Pagan outside a Jewish context, if he didn't first have a strong foundation of Jewish followers?
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He reffered to non-jews as gentiles and (rabbid) dogs. Whenever a non-jew came to him for lessons or help, he degarded them by calling them dogs and chasing them away.
Chapter and verse, please. For one, "Gentile" is not a derogatory term anymore than "Jewish" or "Christian" are.
Anyway, the only instance that comes to mind is the Greek woman in Matt 15. Yes, he *did* call her a dog... but I have a theory that we're missing a lot by not knowing the tone of this conversation. I get this impression by the fact that the woman is called a dog, yet strangely doesn't give up and storm off -- rather, she gives a persistent and rather witty reply. My thought is that it's possible Jesus was being tongue-in-cheek when he called her a dog, as a way of poking fun at the senseless social prejudices of his fellow Jews, and the woman, who was in on the joke, gave him the answer he was looking for. What's more, he didn't "chase her away" -- he replied that her strong faith had healed her daughter.
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Also how can the teacings of christ be for someone of any religion? He taught he is the ONLY way to god, the only way through god is to him, anything else will get you thrown in the lake of fire. He critized people of other religions and their ways, and on the day of judgement he will cast people of all religions into the lake of fire.
No. To correct all the errors here would require an essay unto itself. Fortunately, I've addressed all the misconceptions about hell and the lake of fire in an essay I wrote a few years ago, heh. If you're interested, it's at http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/palehorse13x/hell.html
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I would not work to earn a living. I would leave it up to "god" to give me money. When jesus and his disciples were hungry, they simply stole whatever food they wanted.
Matthew 6:25-34, Matt. 12:1-2, Mark 2:23, Luke 6:1-2.
And obviously no one minded, because no one accused them of stealing. Ancient hospitality is funny that way. However, they *were* accused of breaking the Sabbath, which was the whole point of what they did. Jesus used it as an opportunity to point out that it was the spirit of the Sabbath, rather than the letter, that was important.
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I would spend any extra change on myself instead of perhaps dropping it to the needy on the streets.
Mark 14:3-7. Mark 14:7
He was commending a woman who did a nice gesture for him. As a guy who could cause food to multiply on demand, I think he was entitled to enjoy a rare bit of good hospitality himself.
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I would hate my family and disrespect my mother. Jesus treated his mother with disrespect, rudely calling her "woman" when he spoke
John 2:4, 19:26
I've actually seen this a lot among ancient writers/speakers. It appears to have just been a convention of their language, rather than being rude.
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I would not consider my bioligcal father to be my father. I would not call anyone on earth my father.
Matthew 23:9
It has been said, and I agree, that Jesus was aiming to create a "family" structure that went beyond the accident of birth that is one's biological family. He was trying to create a family of believers who embraced each other as such by choice, looked out for each other, and joined to serve the community as a whole.
That said, I simply take this verse as a command against giving any one person too much spiritual authority.
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There are alot of others but I dont feel like mentioning them all.
Good, because I don't feel like refuting them all. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by James S
I sometimes wonder what most christians think of one of the most important "rules" of whichcraft - "do what you will but harm none!" I wonder how much ministers in days gone by considered this rule as they were killing people accused of being witches.
Actually, this is only part of the Wiccan Rede, and Wicca has only been around for about fifty years. As such, not all witches are bound by any such rule, and I've seen quite a few practitioners of witchcraft have a good hearty laugh at the expense of anyone who would suggest that witchcraft is all flowers and sunshine. Even Wicca has its share of nastiness -- in its 161 laws, it condemns those who break any of said laws to "the hell of the Christians" (which just amuses the shyte out of me for some reason).
For those who killed *anyone* in the name of Christ, it'd be much more relevant to point out his own commands against violence of any sort. Those who committed these acts were doing so completely against the teachings of Christ, and, in their lust for power and authority, often killed many other sincere Christians too.
"Even Wicca has its share of nastiness -- in its 161 laws, it condemns those who break any of said laws to "the hell of the Christians" (which just amuses the shyte out of me for some reason)."
LOL!! me too! [:)]
Kind of defeats the whole purpose doesn't it?[B)]
As a witch, I rarely refer to anything Wicca, as I'm not a Wiccan by the current sense of the Gardinarian religion "Wicca". I'm one of those out-of-date types that still refers to witchcraft in terms of ancient Celtic wise-craft. As I mentioned in another thread, the word "wicca" is Old English, pronounced "witcha" meaning "wise-one". But that's why I call my self a witch and not a wiccan.
All gets a bit pedantic doesn't it?
When I think of the phrase "do what you will but harm none", this phrase goes way way back. You're right though, there are enough covens out there practicing dark magic and such that have turned against the basic principles of wise-craft.
I consider that the three fold law, as well as a good dose of karma will catch up with them soon enough, as too with those christians that consider it the "will of God" to slaughter all those hethens, pagans and heretics. Man's laws are often subject to interpretation. The Universe's laws are another matter alltogether.
[:)]
James.
Palehorse,
Bravo on your article "To hell with hell". These are my views also, I hope more Christians will "get it". I fear that too many are stuck in their traditions, though. Too bad for the flack that Carlton Pearson is getting for believing the doctrine of all people being saved, eventually. I think what we're really getting saved from is ourselves and the consequences of our own actions. What a loving God!
What are your views on the bible condemning magick? It seems to me that it is more condemning the dark side of it, and also idolatry. Why would you need to consult other gods when you have the Most High God? This is like consulting a private in the military when you have access to the General? It is an insult. It makes sense to me that I should ask things of my Creator and not of a created being. If I was the Creator I guess this would tinkle me off, too. I'm just trying to make sense of it.
I have read that the word sorcerer in the bible, properly translated means poisoner. So this would make sense. Also, Daniel was a magician and practiced occult arts and this was not condemned. I see Kabbalah all through the New Testament. Paul talks about the "mysteries". It amazes me how many people put down the Bible when it is one of the most spiritual books around. I think they just haven't read it with spiritual eyes. I actually feel energized and purified when I read it. Jesus said that the things he did, we could do too, and greater.
As a Christian and a searcher for truth and reality, as I've been reading a lot of metaphysical stuff, I keep saying "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible". The bible is full of paranormal stuff. Visions, dreams, healings, prophecy, miracles, etc. etc. etc. I've often wondered if on the day of Pentecost when the room they were in was shaken, if this was not really the vibrations you get before an OBE and the tongues of fire were not seen in the astral. I've wondered if being filled with the Spirit is not really the Kundalini rising. And as the Kundalini rises and the sidhis are manifest, is this not the gifts of the Spirit? And love, peace patience and the other fruit of the Spirit, are these not the transformation that happens when the Kundalini rises? Maybe the Essenes always wore white because they knew this was the best for their aura and were vegetarians because this freed up energy for spiritual pursuits. One can go on and on. Like maybe Jesus said "these (demons) don't come out except by prayer and fasting, is because these give the extra energy that is necessary for the healing/exorcism. It may be different (christianized) terminology for the same thing(metaphysical). Jesus taught things to the 72 that he didn't teach to the masses. He taught things to the 12 that he didn't teach the 72. He then taught things to the 3 that he didn't to the 12. And then there was John who laid his head on his breast and heard his very heart beat. Meaning you can be as close to God as you wanna be, and if the teaching is hidden doesn't that mean occult? I really believe Jesus came to show us the "Way" and not start a new religion. If Jesus nailed our Karma to the cross then Wow that is Good News and that is awesome!!! Any thoughts?
Peace,
thankful
P.S. To any who may reply, let's have mature discussion, I'm very sensitive to being lamblasted.
quote:
Originally posted by thankful
I think what we're really getting saved from is ourselves and the consequences of our own actions. What a loving God!
Well said, and thanks for reading my essay. Glad ye liked it. [:)]
quote:
What are your views on the bible condemning magick?
Well, I think it's deeply tied in with God's intentions with the ancient Israelites. He was in the process of introducing Himself to a world in which the idea of Him (as a monotheistic, transcendent deity) was completely foreign. As such, He needed to develop a following of people who were completely separate from their neighbors in mind, body and soul. Magic at that time was deeply intertwined with Pagan ritual, and was thought to operate through the power of Pagan deities, so it's easy to see why it was so forcefully condemned.
It's interesting that the views I've been developing since I showed up here have actually given force to this argument. Meaning, if you're the true, pre-existent creator, trying to reveal yourself to humanity, and you've got all these thought-form beings running around in the form of Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian deities, then what do you do? You try to cut off their main source of energy: magic and ritual.
Does that mean magic is okay today? Well, I think that's up to individual judgment, but it's a leap that I for one am not yet willing to make. Though, I also have to say that the definition of "magic" is extremely blurred, probably due to our much greater body of knowledge de-mystifying much of the world around us. Yesterday's magic is today's placebo, and probably tomorrow's useful tool.
quote:
Also, Daniel was a magician and practiced occult arts and this was not condemned.
Example?
quote:
I see Kabbalah all through the New Testament.
Eh, as far as I know, Kabbalah was not developed as a body of Jewish mystical literature until a lot later. I would say that if it is in there, it's only a product of the writers being Jewish, and thus practicing a distinctly Jewish-flavored mysticism.
quote:
Paul talks about the "mysteries". It amazes me how many people put down the Bible when it is one of the most spiritual books around. I think they just haven't read it with spiritual eyes.
True, but now you're getting into theology, mysticism, miracles... all rather different from magic, IMO. Note: you might disagree on the mention of miracles, but I see a fundamental different between the way Jesus worked miracles, and the way a witch might cast a spell. The witch is attempting to manipulate energy for a specific effect. Whereas, I believe Jesus simply had the power to inspire a person's innate ability to heal
himself, as evidenced by his signature phrase "
your faith has healed you, now go in peace." Another interesting example is in Mark 6:5 -- Jesus was in his own hometown, but "could do no miracle there" because of the people's lack of faith.
quote:
As a Christian and a searcher for truth and reality, as I've been reading a lot of metaphysical stuff, I keep saying "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible". The bible is full of paranormal stuff. Visions, dreams, healings, prophecy, miracles, etc. etc. etc.
Indeed... that's why I don't understand the typical conservative evangelical Christian response to any mention of the paranormal. However, I'm still not convinced that magic fits on that list, or that a Christian could use it while still being true to his religion.
quote:
I've often wondered if on the day of Pentecost when the room they were in was shaken, if this was not really the vibrations you get before an OBE and the tongues of fire were not seen in the astral.
Hm, very interesting idea; hadn't thought of that before. I had an experience myself a few weeks ago where it felt like the air mattress I was sleeping on was being forcefully shaken from side to side, but I'm pretty sure the sensation originated internally. So, your idea isn't too big of a jump.
quote:
I've wondered if being filled with the Spirit is not really the Kundalini rising. And as the Kundalini rises and the sidhis are manifest, is this not the gifts of the Spirit? And love, peace patience and the other fruit of the Spirit, are these not the transformation that happens when the Kundalini rises?
I only know what little I've read here about kundalini, but I'd have to disagree. Being filled with the spirit is something portrayed as being initiated by God, whereas people have described spontaneous kundalini rising that really screwed them up physically and mentally. Somehow I don't think God is accidentally dumping too much Spirit into people and causing them meltdowns, heh.
quote:
Maybe the Essenes always wore white because they knew this was the best for their aura and were vegetarians because this freed up energy for spiritual pursuits.
Yeah, they're an interesting group, especially with their possible connections to James and John the Baptist. I plan on learning as much as I can about them in the future.
quote:
Meaning you can be as close to God as you wanna be, and if the teaching is hidden doesn't that mean occult? I really believe Jesus came to show us the "Way" and not start a new religion.
Heh, I'm involved right now in a debate on another forum, with a guy who believes that mysticism, and anything hidden or having anything to do with the idea of gnosis, is completely anti-Christian. I raised many of the same points you have... and he hasn't answered yet. This should be fun. :X
quote:
If Jesus nailed our Karma to the cross then Wow that is Good News and that is awesome!!! Any thoughts?
I think you've raised some excellent points, and are really on to something with much of what you've said.
Hi Palehorse,
The reference about Daniel is in Daniel 5:11 where it says Daniel was "made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". This is probably because he was more skillled than the rest of them and so was put in charge of them.
Also, there is a reference to Joseph divining with his cup in Genesis 44:5.
Sometimes the bible says not to divine and then others times we see His people divining, like when the apostles drew lots to replace Judas as apostle. This was a big decision, but they prayed and believed God would show his choice. After this event, there is no reference to divining, probably because the Holy Spirit was given, but sometimes I wonder if it's O.K. in decisions in which you can't get a "word" from the Holy Spirit. I know many Christians "throw out the fleece", this really isn't any different.
I just want to be a Berean like in the N.T. and find out what's really what and not accept the status quo, just because we were taught to accept certain things. Sometimes you really have to look at things with a whole new paradigm to get at the truth of something.
Have you ever heard of the Akashic records? If it really contains the history of the world and every thought, event, etc. then it should be possible to find out what's what once you're developed enough. This is one of my goals.
Also about the Kabbalah, is means "received" and is an oral tradition that was handed down supposedly since Moses. Things were just written down much later. But if you read a few things about the Kabbalah, you can begin to see references to some of its beliefs in some of the things Jesus and Paul say.
I'm having the same experience in reading things about magick, I keep saying to myself "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible." I'm thinking that magick is a word that directs a force that people call chi, orgone, psi, mana, etc. Some same the Hebrews call this force, ruach. So is magick directing this force to accomplish your will? Maybe it's just the negative aspect that God is against, like poisoning people, deceiving people, anything that hurts people. Jesus was actually accused of being a magician when it was said that he casts out demons by the prince of demons. This is what goetic magicians do. I guess this is a form of high magick. I'm not saying that he was a magician, but as the son of
God certainly, he knows how the universe operates. Scripture takes on a different meaning when you really know the context and meaning behind the words. There is so much to learn, and explore and learn I will!!!
As far as the kundalini, the bible says that the Holy Spirit is like a refiner's fire and also that He transforms us, this seems to be the testimony of people with raised kundalini, they feel they are different people, feel they are being purified and get psychic gifts. What if the bible just has different wording for things that are the same in other cultures? Food for thought.
Do you have OBE's or are you doing the NEW exercies from this site? You sound like you're a Christian that wants to find things out for himself. Go Bro!
Shalom
quote:
Originally posted by aryanknight666
The reason why you see similarities between magic and christianity is because either victorian era ritual magick is based of christian rites or christianity ripped alot of its rites and rituals off ritual witchcraft.
You're missing the point Wronski, all other religions are meant to be worshipping of the devil - and all magick is meant to come from the devil. According to christianity ALL magick is evil. Thats what it means when it says "evil" - just that, something that "god" says is evil. Evil is in the eye of the beholder.
I think you will find worship of the devil to be very scarce.
Modern LaVeyan Satanists are for the most part athiests and don't beleive in satan as a real being.
Traditional Satanists beleive Satan to be a real being, but they do NOT call him "the devil" and do not think of themselves as "Devil Worshippers".
I personally am a traditional satanist. My soul is dedicated to satan, signed in blood.
Ave Satanas
Hi, just out of curiosity, why did you choose to dedicate your soul to Satan? Who is Satan exactly to you, and who exactly do you believe the Christian Trinity is? I'm curious, as I've never actually talked to a real Satanist before.
I won't even comment on how to go down the dark path (my phrase for ways to find out just what real terror and fear is all about). Why? Because it's a one way journey, and the point of no return is very close to the starting point. I will not risk Karma by pointing someone in the direction, even in the guises of how "not to".
James S: Interesting comment. I am guility of using "Wiccan" and "Witch" interchangeably. I know it's not the same thing. Even say "Wiccan" isn't universal, since the US Wiccan church probably has much different views than the one in Britian. I suppose saying "Witch" is like saying "Christaian", in that Christian implies Catholics, Espiciapalinas, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Unitatians, Greek Othodox, and even Mormons. Talk about no 2 groups agreeing on anything!!! So it is also true of sects of Witches?
Time and again I keep making this mistake. I'll wait for the Karma bill in the mail [;)]
For what it's worth: Christians always bad mouth the competition. Every religion does, how else are you going to get converts? There magic is "evil" and ours is "good" is carved in stone in every religious playbook (with a few exceptions, but we aren't going there). And of course most of you aren't synical enough to understand power politics. Why is magic "bad"? Because Adepts can impersonate "higher powers", thus they can influence people from a religious context. Having recently surfaced from severe depression, I absolutely shudder at the thought of having no morals and being adept! Talk about wreaking havoc [V]
quote:
I won't even comment on how to go down the dark path (my phrase for ways to find out just what real terror and fear is all about). Why? Because it's a one way journey, and the point of no return is very close to the starting point. I will not risk Karma by pointing someone in the direction, even in the guises of how "not to".
Do you even know what karma is?
What is my perception of Satan?
He is the lord of this earth, the creator of mankind, the true God of humanity.
How do I perceive the trinity?
There is no one, monotheistic "God". This is a deception, there are in fact many gods that make up "YHWH", although on of them is probably called jehova. As for "jesus"? He most probably did not exist. Either he did not exist at all, or he was in fact just a normal man. If the nazarene did in fact exist as he is detailed, he is an alien-human hybrid. I guess this also might provide some insight into how I think of the nazarene:
"Behold the crucifex, what do you see? pallid incompetence hanging from a tree".
JHVH and his angels are psychic feinds, when a christian dies, he is simply procesed into a soul factory. Angels also feed off mages who are stupid enough to stick with them, and also normal christians.
JHVH and his angels are concerned with the destruction of humanity, which they will attempt on the so called "day of judgement".
However, Satan is in love with humanity and he will come back and personally rip a new arsehole for this pathetic excuse for a "God".
Satan was also the sumerian diety "Enki" and the egyptian diety "Ptah". The pagan gods astaroh/ishtar,inana, beelzebub/baal, and many others are what have been branded as so called "demons". They are in fact the true and original Gods of humanity.
quote:
Originally posted by thankful
Hi Palehorse,
The reference about Daniel is in Daniel 5:11 where it says Daniel was "made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". This is probably because he was more skillled than the rest of them and so was put in charge of them.
Ah... yeah, but Daniel himself is only portrayed as interpreting dreams, posessing wisdom and such, not necessarily practicing magic himself. Also, I'd imagine when you're a Hebrew living in Babylonian exile, and the king offers you the third highest position in the empire, you take it without asking questions... especially when your failure to do so would probably win you a trip to the executioner. Heh.
quote:
Sometimes the bible says not to divine and then others times we see His people divining, like when the apostles drew lots to replace Judas as apostle. This was a big decision, but they prayed and believed God would show his choice. After this event, there is no reference to divining, probably because the Holy Spirit was given, but sometimes I wonder if it's O.K. in decisions in which you can't get a "word" from the Holy Spirit. I know many Christians "throw out the fleece", this really isn't any different.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that while we've been having this conversation. There's definitely a lot of this sort of thing throughout the Bible, which makes for a lot of grey area that most Christians don't seem willing to acknowledge. In particular, there seems to be a lot of things condemned in the OT, that in reality was simply a case of writings by the northern and southern kingdoms taking cheapshots at each other's customs and religious practices in the name of God. (At this point I must plug the great book "Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Friedman, which is where I'm getting most of this info.)
quote:
I just want to be a Berean like in the N.T. and find out what's really what and not accept the status quo, just because we were taught to accept certain things. Sometimes you really have to look at things with a whole new paradigm to get at the truth of something.
Absolutely. For this reason, I predict that whatever form the Christianity of 100 years from now takes, the next big movement will take place outside the mainstream institutional churches. They're set up in such a way that by definition encourages spiritual stagnance and passivity, and I think we're already seeing signs that the human need for true spirituality won't settle for that anymore.
quote:
Have you ever heard of the Akashic records? If it really contains the history of the world and every thought, event, etc. then it should be possible to find out what's what once you're developed enough. This is one of my goals.
Yes I have, and that's one of the big reasons for my interest in this too. I would LOVE to take a peek back at 1st century Palestine and get a lot of questions answered, assuming it's possible. Another possibility that both excites me and freaks me out a little bit -- if time is non-linear, and assuming Jesus was as spiritually adept as we think he was -- would he be able to see me when I went back for a visit? Now *there's* one to wrap your mind around, heh.
Y'know what though, one thing I was worried about was that since the astral is said to be so subjective and malleable, and there's SO much interpretation, bias and vested interests surrounding the life of Jesus, was how hard it might be to find out any truly objective facts. Even if I did pull it off, I think I'd probably doubt myself and wonder if my subconscious simply made the whole thing up.
quote:
I'm having the same experience in reading things about magick, I keep saying to myself "hey, that's in the bible, and that's in the bible." I'm thinking that magick is a word that directs a force that people call chi, orgone, psi, mana, etc. Some same the Hebrews call this force, ruach. So is magick directing this force to accomplish your will?
I think it very well could be, but I also think that's probably why it was forbidden. For most of us, having the power to get what we want on demand could be pretty disasterous. That's why it's said "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, THEN all these things shall be added unto you."
quote:
There is so much to learn, and explore and learn I will!!!
Indeed there is. And it definitely sounds like you're on the right track.
quote:
As far as the kundalini, the bible says that the Holy Spirit is like a refiner's fire and also that He transforms us, this seems to be the testimony of people with raised kundalini, they feel they are different people, feel they are being purified and get psychic gifts.
I agree that the after-effects and the imagery associated with the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and Kundalini raising, are very similar. However, I still see big differences between how the events themselves are portrayed. With the HS, it always seems to be a voluntary thing, and I've never heard any negative effects reported. With the Kundalini, there are reports of spontaneous and premature raisings that the body can't handle, which are said to cause serious damage. In light of that, I'm really not sure if the two concepts can be reconciled. If the HS is a manifestation of God, then I don't know why God would fill someone in this way if He knew they couldn't handle it, and would suffer actual damage.
quote:
What if the bible just has different wording for things that are the same in other cultures? Food for thought.
Yeah, the above nonwithstanding, I do think there's a lot of that in there. There's a ton of material in the prophets, and from the apostles for instance, that sounds suspiciously like AP and related phenomena.
quote:
Do you have OBE's or are you doing the NEW exercies from this site? You sound like you're a Christian that wants to find things out for himself. Go Bro!
I've never had an actual OBE myself, but I believe I've come very close. For as long as I can remember I've had the occasional instance of sleep paralysis, a few lucid dreams, and some other odd experiences, some of which I described in this thread: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13368. I originally came here out of a desire to further explore things I was already experiencing spontaneously. I've been experimenting a bit with NEW since I read Astral Dynamics a few months ago, but I've been pretty inconsistent with it.
You're right though -- I'm a Christian, but one who questions everything and isn't willing to take anyone's word for it. My belief system is based about half on trying to figure out and implement what was originally believed and practiced by the 1st century Church, and half on trying to find Truth out for myself via firsthand experience. This is why I'm majoring in religion and hopefully making a career out of it -- I figure any other career would divert my time and attention away from my search for truth, whereas this one would allow me to simultaneously satisfy both my hunger for knowledge and my need to make a living. And, as for firsthand experience, that's why I'm so interested in AP.
quote:
What is my perception of Satan?
He is the lord of this earth, the creator of mankind, the true God of humanity.
On what do you base your perception?
quote:
there are in fact many gods that make up "YHWH", although on of them is probably called jehova.
Actually, "Jehovah" is simply an anglicized version of YHWH... they just changed the Hebrew letters to their closest English equivalents, and added some vowels. Same with Jesus, whose Hebrew name was Yeshua.
quote:
As for "jesus"? He most probably did not exist. Either he did not exist at all, or he was in fact just a normal man.
I think I find your first claim even more extraordinary than the claim that a man rose from the dead. How do you explain all the accounts of his life that were circulating towards the middle of the 1st century? What would be the motive for making the whole story up, especially since professing it could often get one tortured and killed in horribly nasty ways? If he was a normal man, then how did he manage to alter the course of history, while all the other numerous would-be messiahs during that period quickly faded into obscurity? If he didn't rise from the dead, then presumably his many opponents could have easily produced a body and ended the whole movement before it started -- why did this not happen? How do you explain the sudden change in his followers, from a depressed and sorry bunch who had just lost their leader, to a devoted group with a purpose, ready to die for their beliefs, who swept across the Roman empire relatively quickly?
quote:
JHVH and his angels are psychic feinds, when a christian dies, he is simply procesed into a soul factory. Angels also feed off mages who are stupid enough to stick with them, and also normal christians.
JHVH and his angels are concerned with the destruction of humanity, which they will attempt on the so called "day of judgement".
However, Satan is in love with humanity and he will come back and personally rip a new arsehole for this pathetic excuse for a "God".
Satan was also the sumerian diety "Enki" and the egyptian diety "Ptah". The pagan gods astaroh/ishtar,inana, beelzebub/baal, and many others are what have been branded as so called "demons". They are in fact the true and original Gods of humanity.
What is your source for all this information?
Thanks for the scholarly questions, Palehorse. I was going to say it is easier to believe Catholic dogma than what aryanknight just said, as he hasn't provided background for it.
LOL Runlola. [:D]
The Jesus Action Figure, now at Wal-Mart! Turns water to wine and erases your sins! Comes with a life-size cross.
If anyone wants to talk to me any further about this for now;
my aim screenname is shunkan shu
my email adress for msn is drunken_dragon_fist@hotmail.com.
I'll make a post later.
On what I base my perception is mainly first hand experience and communications with demons.
You might want to take a look at www.joyofsatan.com
Communication with demons? Wow. That's a braver step than I would take, what with demonic possession being a very probable after-effect.
Demons can not posses a human, their bio-electricty is so great it would incinerate the comparitably frail human body.
So called "demonic possesion" is either a base level spirit or a purely psychological phenomenon. Angels also have a bad habit of possesing people to try and enforce the right hand path and scare people away from the truth.
Its such a shame everyone has been so brainwashed and had all this RHP crap about Demons crammed down their throats, as Demons are the true and original Gods of Humanity.
You know Aryanknight666, I'm beginning to see your version of Satanism as being like radical feminism. You know, the "womyn" that have become just like the men they hate so much?
All I see on both sides of the fence are the same kind of people with the same type of preaching, intolerance and narrow-mindedness. "My God is better then your God" and all that.
Please stop using this forum as a venue for your preaching. I'll say the same thing to you as I say to christians who try this on - evangelism of any religion will not be tolerated here.
Speak about topics from your point of view, sure. You're perfectly welcome to do that, and you do come up with some good points from time to time, but you're also spouting a lot of dogma.
Please leave the preaching and religion bashing behind. It's not welcome here.
Regards,
James.
Indeed, one can easily see that aryanknight belongs to a way of thought that does not exist on its own, but seeks the exact opposite of Judeo-Christianity.
Moderator, how does one cross the line from talking about their own truths into "evangelizing". What does it mean to evangelize?
A true Christian would know that Jesus preached a Gospel of love, and that telling someone that "my God is better than your god" would be a low form of evengelization. Wasn't it St. Francis Assisi that said, "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."?
Truth is non-moral, and we should be able to easily recognize it. For example, those who claim to know Truth and get into little, childish arguments are defeating themselves. Evangelization and rhetoric is best left to the politicians and those who seek to proselytize. Authentic Christianity is about so many things, humility certainly not least of all. Why not try some Socratic dialetic?
Hi Antonius, welcome to the forums. [:)]
Basically what we see as evangelising here is people either trying to "recruit" others to their religion or belief, or people who push their religion as being the one and only way, and continually put down other beliefs. This shows complete disrespect or ignorance for the beliefs of others.
Speaking of your own truths is fine. This can be quite easily done in a course of a conversation where there is no agressive preaching, but rather just saying it as you see it.
Kind regards,
James.
Hello All,
aryanknight666 wrote:
quote:
JHVH and his angels are psychic feinds, when a christian dies, he is simply procesed into a soul factory. Angels also feed off mages who are stupid enough to stick with them, and also normal christians.
JHVH and his angels are concerned with the destruction of humanity, which they will attempt on the so called "day of judgement".
However, Satan is in love with humanity and he will come back and personally rip a new arsehole for this pathetic excuse for a "God".
You're christian bro, you just flipped the names[:)]
If youwant to read more about satanism and the ministry which I belong to, please visit www.joyofsatan.com
yup...pretty amazing info I read in there.
It opened my eyes.....though I have been going blind since I was eight so opening them doesnt matter much these days.[;)]
I find all that information I just read just as revealing as the satanic bible after I read it. I came out of the experience just the same. Thinking, "Huh, people will always write things. All sorts of things."
I thought that after reading much of the bible, some of the mormon bible, some of the koran and bhagavid-gita, and some of the urantia book. As much as people may look to these things for spiritual guidance or just some relevant issues regarding current events in their lives, it all just comes down to desire of faith.
You can't have faith in anything without the desire for some redemption.
They are all just words though, and you can live in between the sentences, pointing out deuteronomy or the book of nephi or the superuniverses or keys of lucifer to others believing that those words prove one thing or another, but what it all boils down to, is that you have belief in them. Nobody else needs to.
Think what is thought for that is the use of the mind and the soul, but don't expect because you have a strong belief, that others shall follow.
all the translations of the bible are mixed and levay is dead. Vishnu watches over us and Shiva shall inherit destruction. Fractals are the answer and the death of god is proof of our pointlessness. Jesus will come under conditions you could never comprehend and divinity is the definition of human ideal.
Come and understand me, as I come to understand you my friend, there is no difference.
All,
A commercial break of sorts: -
Extract 'Ted files to the rescue':-
http://www.geocities.com/juliatheyounger/ted1.htm
"Oh Ted!" said Dougal rushing in, excited. He'd been outside playing ball with Father Damo.
"What is it Dougal?" asked Father Ted Crilly, looking up from the Craggy Island Examiner.
"A big black car just pulled into the driveway. I think its Satan, Ted."
"Dougal, I'm sure it's not Satan." Ted got up and looked out the window, two figures in long overcoats with a very governmenty feel to them were striding up the path.
"They look like detectives," said Ted. He looked around but Father Jack was safely asleep on his chair. "What on earth could they want?"
"They've probably come to arrest you over that charity money Ted," said Dougal helpfully.
"Dougal - " Ted began.
Just then the door bell rang. Mrs Doyle came into the lounge room.
"Fathers, there's two people here from the Eff Bee Aye."
"The FBI?" said Dougal. "What's that then Ted?"
"The Federal Bureau of Investigation Dougal," said Ted. "They're like very important American police."....
(//forums/uploaded/eol007/jack.jpg)
Fe*k...
[}:)]
ROFLMAO!!!![:D][:D]
nice post!!
quote:
yup...pretty amazing info I read in there.
It opened my eyes.....though I have been going blind since I was eight so opening them doesnt matter much these days.
I find all that information I just read just as revealing as the satanic bible after I read it. I came out of the experience just the same. Thinking, "Huh, people will always write things. All sorts of things."
I thought that after reading much of the bible, some of the mormon bible, some of the koran and bhagavid-gita, and some of the urantia book. As much as people may look to these things for spiritual guidance or just some relevant issues regarding current events in their lives, it all just comes down to desire of faith.
You can't have faith in anything without the desire for some redemption.
They are all just words though, and you can live in between the sentences, pointing out deuteronomy or the book of nephi or the superuniverses or keys of lucifer to others believing that those words prove one thing or another, but what it all boils down to, is that you have belief in them. Nobody else needs to.
Think what is thought for that is the use of the mind and the soul, but don't expect because you have a strong belief, that others shall follow.
all the translations of the bible are mixed and levay is dead. Vishnu watches over us and Shiva shall inherit destruction. Fractals are the answer and the death of god is proof of our pointlessness. Jesus will come under conditions you could never comprehend and divinity is the definition of human ideal.
Come and understand me, as I come to understand you my friend, there is no difference.
I'm not even going to try and make sense of that mess, which is all I have to say about virtually all of your posts, really. *yawn*
quote:
Indeed, one can easily see that aryanknight belongs to a way of thought that does not exist on its own, but seeks the exact opposite of Judeo-Christianity.
"Indeed, one can easily see" that you are a stupid easily led moron moron who can obviously not read or understand anything for himself.
Stop versing your words in an "Olde" manner to try and look sophisticated and cultured. In fact, you can go to hell instead.
[sarcasm]I'll ask satan to reserve a spot for you [/sarcasm]
::vomit::
(http://www.punkskateboarders.com/secret/OWNED.jpg)
quote:
Originally posted by aryanknight666
quote:
Indeed, one can easily see that aryanknight belongs to a way of thought that does not exist on its own, but seeks the exact opposite of Judeo-Christianity.
"Indeed, one can easily see" that you are a stupid easily led moron moron who can obviously not read or understand anything for himself.
Stop versing your words in an "Olde" manner to try and look sophisticated and cultured. In fact, you can go to hell instead.
[sarcasm]I'll ask satan to reserve a spot for you [/sarcasm]
::vomit::
Hi,
Stop flaming please. This thread is now locked.
Kind regards,
Stephen
Reading through these forums I have noticed that there is a huge christian influence. As you all know the purpose of these forums are to discuss occult concepts and practices, primarily astral projection but also other areas. Through-out the threads there is always a christian comment or two dropped in about the topic being discussed, topics of course, of an occult nature. I decided I would perhaps wake people up to what the bible has to say about the occult.
Old Testament
Exod 22:18
18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Deut 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his
daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times,
or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a
necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because
of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Lev 20:27
27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely
be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
1 Chr 10:13-14
13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD,
even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking
counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom
unto David the son of Jesse.
.
New Testament
Acts 8:9-24
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which before time in the same city
used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was
some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is
the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them
with sorceries.
Acts 16:16-18
16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a
spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the
servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the
spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he
came out the same hour.
.
So let's define some of these words from Nelsons Illustrated Bible Dictionary,
(Copyright 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers) and apply them to our current world:
.
MAGIC, SORCERY, AND DIVINATION
Witchcraft
The practice of witchcraft, or divination, was a means for extracting information or
guidance from a pagan god.
In the case of Joseph's divining cup, the diviner apparently interpreted the
shape of a puddle of oil floating on the water in the cup <Gen. 44:5>.
<Ezekiel 21> describes the king of Babylon as he tried to decide which way
to approach Jerusalem. It portrays him as throwing down a handful of
arrows, hoping that a certain one will point to a route which he believes is
the will of his god.
It also records that "he consults the images, he looks at the liver" <Ezek.
21:21>. Reading and interpreting the livers of sacrificial animals was
another form of determining the will of the gods.
(Modern day black 8 ball, Water Witching, Burying a statue of Joseph
upside down in the front yard to sell a house )
Soothsaying
Soothsaying, the practitioner of which is also described by the KJV as "observer
of times" <Deut. 18:10>.
Because it sounds like a Hebrew word for cloud, some scholars believe it refers
to cloud reading.
(Modern day Tea Leaf Reading, Palm Reading, Astrology, Horoscopes,
Biorhythms, Fortune Cookies, etc.)
Necromancy
Calling Up the Dead. The Bible gives us no indication that we can expect to talk
with people who have died.
(Modern day "Praying to the Saints" in the Roman Catholic Church. This
is also includes Seances, and Oui-ja Boards.)
I have seen alot of people here talk about white magick being of "God" and other such crap. It should be well noted that as a christian, you are meant to practice NO form of magick. NO form of magick is meant to be of your "God". It clearly states in revelations that jesus will throw all those who practice magick, sorcery, divination etc into the lake of fire. There is absolutely no tolerance for spirit mediumship, sorcery, witchcraft, divination, magick, interpreting omens, contacting the dead and other such practices in the Bible, the Jewish Torah or the Koran.
I have noticed alot of you speak of "demons". "good spirits" and "bad spirits". Demon is the classic latin form of the modern latin word "Daemon". They are both an adaption of the greek word "Daimon". This meant a spirit of power intermediary between men and the Gods. They were meant to be guardians and bringers of knowledge. "hairy men" "lords" and "idols" were translated into "Daimon". Why? because these were said to be more powerful then men and not as powerful as god. They were the pagan dieties worshipped by the canaanites, akkaidians, the babylonians etc. They were meant to be false idols, deceptive and seductive. "Daimons" were also meant to be what was at work in divination, spirit mediumship, contacting the dead etc. "Daemon" and "Demon" are adapted forms of "Daimon" which came about from translation. Later translations of the bible used "devils" and "feinds". These beings were said to be "fallen angels" who "fell from grace" with lucifer. The bible states there is no such thing as contacting the dead, because after death people apparently either cease to exist, or find eternal life with the nazarene. They cannot be contacted when they find eternal life, and obviously they canot be contacted when they cease to exist because they don't exist. "Angels" are meant to be messengers to the prophets and only appear to chosen people, ie prophets. They will only come to people, people are not meant to be able to contact them or invoke/evoke them. What is being contacted during spirit mediusm ship, evocation and invocation are meant to be fallen angels; the unclean, deceptive, seductive spirits.
Since they are seductive and deceptive obviously they would not present themselves as malignant or negative now, would they? it is never stated that they kill or harm. The reason why they are "evil spirits" is because they oppose "God". They're evil because "God" says they are. There is also nothing about karma or reincarnation in the bible like many people would like to beleive. Such claims are utter crap. The bible states spirituality is the doctrine of Demons.
Thank you