well just do your magic under gods word, like the four corners spell, you can do that one under gods rule. i dont know how to do it but im sure there is a book that tells how to do it.
Welcome to the Forums, ChristianMagick,
I was once so foolish as to call myself a "Christian Witch" (ah, I was young then). I knew the reality of magic, and was able to do things that could only be described as magical. But I was SO terrified of the supposed ramifications (hellfire, damnation, etc.) of abandoning my Christian Faith that I just couldn't bring myself to lose the "Christian" moniker. Plus, I've always had a soft spot in my heart for (the real) Jesus.
But something happened. The deeper I went, and the more I learned and understood about magic and the nature of the Divine, the less Christian I became. I didn't love Jesus any less, but I became more wild, more "pagan," more connected to the rhythms of the earth, the elementals, the spirits, etc. etc. I also saw how Christianity estranged humanity from the natural world, including other humans. I saw the evil face of Christianity. I watched the horrors. I saw what it did to women. I saw how through Christianity, people lost their understanding of the immanence of the Divine.
One day, I understood both the point and the pointlessness of Organized Religion, and gave up labels entirely. It was a brave, brave day that I finally realized I was no longer a Christian. I still love Jesus, and believe he's helping us from the astral realms. But I am horrified by Christian dogma and reject it, almost in its entirety.
So, if you hold your Christianity dear - - and I can tell from your name that you do - - think hard before you delve into magic or mysticism of any kind. You might just lose your faith. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. But you might.
I guess you are Right I shouldnt call my self a christian Witch but its just something I can call myself right now i guess. I do go to church and believe in God and I dont agree with alot of Dogma and what Christian people do and how they judge and stuff. I dont ever think i loose my faith in Jesus but maybe The Christian Church. Jesus will always be in my heart, And i know He helps me in everything i do.
Thank You
[:D][:D][:D] Yeah i'm a Christian as well, and i'm a Wizard/ Mage.
Just as long as you don't worship the devil then your cool.
I suppose you have plenty of time to work it out for yourselves. After all, it took me years to get where I am today; I can't well expect you to change your approach to magic based upon one post on a Forum!
Just remember that even your so-called "good" spells are wrong if they are done without the consent of all parties involved. Think hard about that the next time you try to cast something.
I remember my school years . . . the temptation to use magic to get someone to love me, or to get revenge on a mean person. All this is "black" magic. Do it if you must, but don't be surprised if the consequences slap you in the head. The only "good" and relatively safe magic you should be working on right now is improving yourself, including doing well in school.
Ah, well, peace to you all, and Blessed Be.
good advice, Tisha. I'll keep that in mind.
Tisha has good advice to work on yourself first and foremost. The true path to enlightenment, magic or mysticism by true Initiates has always been about the work of self-transformation. Those who's motives are for power,glory or greed will only be allowed to go so far.
You might want to look up the name Omraam Mikhaël Aïvanhov on a search engine & see what you find.
Good luck on your journey!
celeste
christian magic? magic is a force which pervades the universe, one that can be shaped by human will. christianity is a choice (and you HAVE to choose to be a christian to be a christian, since it's pretty difficult to actually follow God or Jesus without choosing to [|)]) to live a certain way.
imo, if you want to learn about magic and still be a christian, then do that. magic sometimes uses "gods" and spirits and whatnot, but in the end, it's just a force with no actual ties to any being (the use of other beings can help a person cast magic, but it is not neccessary).
and most likely, there will come a time in your journey where you will see the christian *religion* for the crap that it is, but please remember that real christianity is a choice to live a better life, not a doctrine or dogma that has to be followed. Christians live by the grace of God, not by any law [:)] (though that one sentence holds a very subtle but important secret which takes quite a while to fully understand[|)]).
~kakkarot
Perhaps the more we grow as spiritual beings and the more we learn about how the universe works, be that via any balanced path, the more we need to pull apart our beliefs. To be to the point you will find that having restrictive beliefs will hinder your ability to understand your studies in magic, and your spiritual growth. If you stay flexible with your beliefs and are comfortable with questioning them you can adapt to new ideas as you learn, and easily change your beliefs without changing course from your goal.
If you have rigid beliefs the more knowledge you take in the more you need to twist and distort your beliefs to accommodate them. You end up with 'Christian Witches' and people with beliefs totally alien to Christianity still calling themselves Christian and even redefining Christianity stating what 'real Christianity' is. This sort of distortion is not healthy, and you will only progress so far, and grow so much with unbalanced restrictive beliefs. In one of Robert Bruce's articles (The Catch Basket Concept) he talks about writing down all of the spiritual/magical beliefs you have, then writing down the ones you know are true, you have proved are true. If these lists are not the same length perhaps think about why you believe in the ones you don't know are true? Perhaps abandon them all together and see how this changes your understanding of new ideas.
Kind regards
David.
I have a non-religious view on magic,so religion doesnt bother me at all.
But if i would live myself into your situation,the bible says that all witchcraft is forbidden.
But what is witchcraft?
Magic at that time was probably alot different than the one that exists now,unless god himself would have said something else.
I know and it sux... white magic is a kinda christian kinda thing, and its magic. I tried witchcraft once, but it wasn't as great as wizardry. Of course, I still do it for making my chores easier. lol! its cool... anyway the bible has been written over a bigilion times so many things have gotten changed. the devil doesn't give us power, god does.
Hello Iv been studying Christian mysticism and Stuff like that for some time now. Iv been reading the Key of solomon and stuff. But What Is really furstrating is I want to do witchcraft But i dont wanna Say Stuff to like other gods cause im a christian witch .
I wanna know how someone Who beleives in God how can they do magick ? And if anyone in here is familiar of what im talking about , how Can a Christian do magick?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
See ya
Albert
Three points here.
The first is the typical 'bible belt' viewpoint shown above that if you are not Christian then that means you don't believe in God..Wrong! Chistianity in no way has any monopoly over God. Statements like 'if you don't believe in the bible you dont believe in god are so sad, as they indicate a group of people who have never been exposed to any other faith system apart from christianity.
Secondly,
You can believe in other forms of 'god' and still practice magic, although usually, magicians work with various gods depending on the attributes required. All gods are aspect of the 'All', a pantheistic vision; therefore most monotheistic 'Gods' are considered as yet more aspects of the All.. more of the same. however, if you want to just accept one god in the traditional monotheistic sense you can, it shoudlnt affect the magic, although it might require more work.
However, IMO, if you feel you cannot work with various gods because you feel it is wrong 'from a christian viewpoint' then you are unfit to practice occultism, go back to church!
Sorry, to sound harsh, but its better to be honest here so that you don't end up wasting your own time.
Lastly, I agree with Fenris, that the above post displays a classic example of someone who has started to outgrow their mainstream religion, but is still afraid to let go (due to fear), leading to all kinds of distortions in order to make themselves feel 'still christian', resulting in odd terms like 'Christian witches'.
The two really don't gel, as most Mainstream religions (not just Christianity, but Judaism and Islam too) are opposed to any kind of manipulation of power for one's own ends,, funny, considering thats what the church does all the time; the reason for the ban is they dont like the idea of people empowering themselves.
This is why there will come a point when the above person will have to ditch their mainstream religion if they want to pursue an occult career. If the inidvidual feels they cannot do that, then their occult career will be severly limited, in fact a waste of time IMO.
Only you can decide!
Douglas
Honestly, this type of response is part of the same problem that brought a conflict to the original poster's mind; a lack of understanding of the Christian religion, and an unwillingness to try to learn about it. Whether you call yourself a Christian or not, if you're going to present an opinion on it, it should at least be understood for what it is.
<Three points here.
The first is the typical 'bible belt' viewpoint shown above that if you are not Christian then that means you don't believe in God..Wrong! Chistianity in no way has any monopoly over God. Statements like 'if you don't believe in the bible you dont believe in god are so sad, as they indicate a group of people who have never been exposed to any other faith system apart from christianity>
Christianity does not just describe a particular god or gods that people pray to in order to receive favor and success in life. The goal of the Christian is to bring together the various parts of the of the Self, in order to be a part of the greater Tikkun (repair) of the macrocosm. To know Christ is to know the Self that was created long before one's incarnation into the world as we know it today. Christ is not merely a "god" or "spirit" that is worshipped; he is the template of all human beings, and is the force that is tapped into when one is living in the actual moment.
Being a (real) Christian negates the need to practice magick - that is, magick in the sense of rituals in order to fulfill desires (sometimes called sorcery or so-called "low" magick). It's the restructuring of one's own inner world, so that desires are under the control of the Self. They're used to not only bring about the manifestation of Works, but they're also used to gauge one's position with God at any given time. But I digress.
It really is not a simple matter to just say "Christians can't do magick" or "magicians can't be Christian" or whatever else it is that you're trying to state in a nutshell. It's far more complicated than that.
Paul
This might be the case, but what you are describing is moving pretty far away from what most people recognise as 'Christianity', it is in fact 'christian mysticism', the further you go down this road the less and less recognisible as christianity it will become, until you reach the stage I am talking about, where people still feel they have to attach the christian lable to their mystic explorations in order for them to feel 'safe' and 'still within the rules', even when what they have found only loosely relates to the mainstream religion itself.
Douglas
Hi All
Well....It has been a while since I have talked to you Gandalf. How have you been. I have at times followed your tracks, most of whom led me to the religious section. I sure hope you are well and truly enjoyed our last exchange of ideas.
I do have a comment, both to ChristianMagick as well as Trisha and all you others.
I .............well this is where my typing stopped.......I........it is so hard to put into words. Maybe I should just just spill the beans.. I believe you are walking a dangerous path. I would be carefull what you counsel people to do or believe. The paths people take are very varied , nothing seems to be ridgid. Once one joins or adheres to a school of thought this changes. It seems that you both in varying degrees is is encouraging ChristianMagic to toss overboard his value system.......I am not saying that you are wrong in the desisions YOU have made, I count you both friendly, but....remember the times the days weeks and months you laboured in the spirit to understand to grasp the meaning....leave him to make his choices. I have had the same conflict....I have grappeled with my faith, I have questioned my OBEs and my macigal experiences , I have had honest conversations with you, RB ,and many scholars and very wise and kind people yet.....I remain a Christian.
Trisha....your progression as you see it, is not THE WAY, for all nor is it THE TRUTH unchallenged, so make sure you take care to tell ChristianMagic that. There is the way of the left and right hand .
I respectyou both but I am in disagreement with you on this issue , treat me and him kind.
Regards Mustardseed
s'okay.
interesting, your viewpoints on christianity. I agree that once you get to a certain point, you start to. ..''see'' things about organized religion. Although, christianity has helped some peoples' faith. . .helped them to, i dunno, be 'born again', it's not the christian faith that's the problem. .the basic fundamentals are fine, as with many religions, such as buddhism for example whos core beliefs are much the same as christianity as well: love, kindness, acceptance, etc. The basic philosopies are the same, it's the church themselves who morph it the way they want. Pastors, monks, priests, they shape the bible and sacred writings however they please. .and when people go to church and listen, over time these warped teachings get nailed in their heads, so they go around judging people and saying things like "oh, you're not christian/catholic/whatever, you should come to church with me and learn about it." why, why are some religions better or worse than others.
OmG, i totally agree with that whoever said it, about how witchcraft is defined. Thats so true. . .when you think about it. .look what Moses did, look what Jesus did, or Joseph. They did extraordiinary things that we would probably now condifer to be witchcraft (staff into snake, HEALING people, interpreting future events by dreams) the only difference is that God helped them and they admitted it, whereas the pharoahs priests used the satans power (in my opinion) to turn their staves into snakes which is why God won. .cuz Gods just awesome[;)]
'christian witch' gives too many boundaries. .i personally dont think you should label yourself at all at this point. don't call yourself anything, just experience and learn . .after youve thought about everything, then you decide. that's what i did anyway, and it worked for me. .i know what i am. .and im not a christian, or hindu, or buddhist, or muslim. . .i'm me and i believe what i believe.(though my parents still make me go to church with them[xx(])
not all witches are evil, and not all christians are loving.
Hi Mustardseed, How are you?
I havent seen you around, although perhaps thats because I havnt had time to post recently.
About this topic: I know I sounded overly harsh in my earlier statement, but I was trying to make a point which didnt work out to well; basically, I am not making any value judgements about either system here or comparing them in any way.
I just don't think that Magick in the Occult sense of the word, and Mainstream Christianity gel together, and any attempt to do so results in bizarre distortions like 'christian witches' and so on.
I don't think the practice of Magick plays any part in Christian belief, thats why I suggested that people have to make their own choice, to follow christian teachings (or Judaism/Islam which also have such rules about magick) or to ignore them.
I think you would agree that they are really two different systems and shouldnt be mixed?
Douglas
quote:
Originally posted by Dragon_Warrior
[:D][:D][:D] Yeah i'm a Christian as well, and i'm a Wizard/ Mage.
Just as long as you don't worship the devil then your cool.
What's wrong with devil worship? some of teh most decent, loving, people I know are satanists. And no they don't sacrifice children, or have orgies.
Jessica
quote:
Originally posted by ChristianMagick
Hello Iv been studying Christian mysticism and Stuff like that for some time now. Iv been reading the Key of solomon and stuff. But What Is really furstrating is I want to do witchcraft But i dont wanna Say Stuff to like other gods cause im a christian witch .
I wanna know how someone Who beleives in God how can they do magick ? And if anyone in here is familiar of what im talking about , how Can a Christian do magick?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
See ya
Albert
yeah, your looking for something called prayer.
You link with the Divine when you practice magic.
Remember God created us in His "own image".
<This might be the case, but what you are describing is moving pretty far away from what most people recognise as 'Christianity', it is in fact 'christian mysticism', the further you go down this road the less and less recognisible as christianity it will become, until you reach the stage I am talking about, where people still feel they have to attach the christian lable to their mystic explorations in order for them to feel 'safe' and 'still within the rules', even when what they have found only loosely relates to the mainstream religion itself.>
While that may be true, it's a common teaching that all Christians are called to be mystics. Mainstream exoteric religions, whatever those religions may be, are designed to keep in line the people who've not yet formed a relationship with God, and to make decisions for the "spiritually immature." I think it's important in a place like this to differentiate between what's commonly accepted as Christianity, and what Christianity is really about. I think it's important not to think of the lowest common denominator when talking about a set of beliefs. Just because a lunatic with a TV show says "I'm Christian" before and after spouting off insane statements about why you're gonna go to hell and why he's not, that doesn't mean he's speaking for Christianity. It just means that some people are lunatics.
But anyway, my point (which I know probably hasn't been very clear) is that the spiritually mature Christian is perfectly capable of practicing magick, if he so desires... it's just that he normally would have no need to do so, if he's actively trying to keep his desires in check and under the authority of Christ. Being a Christian isn't just a label that you throw around before "mysticism" and "magick," it's a complete worldview that is actually very inclusive of all other religions. However, its mysteries must be actively studied and meditated on, with a good deal of prayer, in order to be understood. It's not something that can be set down in doctrines for the masses to understand.
Anyway, I apologize for the ranting.. touchy subject ;)
Paul
Hello Iv been studying Christian mysticism and Stuff like that for some time now. Iv been reading the Key of solomon and stuff. But What Is really furstrating is I want to do witchcraft But i dont wanna Say Stuff to like other gods cause im a christian witch .
I wanna know how someone Who beleives in God how can they do magick ? And if anyone in here is familiar of what im talking about , how Can a Christian do magick?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
See ya
Albert
Good grief... *does Charlie Brown pose*
Quote from: TyciolGood grief... *does Charlie Brown pose*
Is that the only reason you revived this thread??
Wow.
Nah, actually I bumped it because I referenced it in another thread while researching Christians and Magic/Psionics and why they don't fit together. I just bumped it to bring it to people's minds.
I have struggled with my path for quite sometime. I would classify myself if I had to as a catholic witch. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't be christian and practice witchcraft. In my opinion, it all depends on where you feel your power comes from. I feel that God, Jesus, Mary, and the saints help me. When doing spells, use one of the entities that you believe in, in replace of the gods or goddesses you dont believe in. I stumbled across this one day while browsing the web. If you search the net, you will find a lot of information pertaining to christian witches.
Archangel Watchtowers
Hail Gabriel, Archangel of East and Air!
Archangel of Truth and Wisdom,
I call on you to guide me in the search for truth and
Following my inner voice and intuition.
Hail Gabriel, Blessed Be!
Hail, Michael, Archangel of South and Fire!
Archangel of Strength and Divine Warrior,
I call on your strength to fight and work
For the good of all.
Hail, Michael, Blessed Be!
Hail Raphael, Archangel of West and Water!
Divine Healer and Archangel of Healing,
I call on you to assist me
In healing others.
Hail, Raphael, Blessed Be!
Hail Uriel, Archangel of North and Earth!
Archangel of Divine Light and Mercy,
I call on you to
Bring me to greater understanding.
Hail Uriel, Blessed Be!
The only way the Christian Bibles tell you to call upon God is in prayer, and even then, you pray to Jesus, not to God. The days of giving animal sacrifices and making charms are done. You don't even need a cross. Someone please find for me the place in the Bible that tells people to carry around miniature versions of the roman death instruments that their Messiah was killed on...
QuoteWhat's wrong with devil worship? some of teh most decent, loving, people I know are satanists. And no they don't sacrifice children, or have orgies.
Many Satanists do have orgies, because Satanism celebrates carnal desires and pleasures and does not deny the carnal, true nature of man but rather embraces it, celebrates it and indulges in it.
As for 'decent', whatever words like these are always from a judeao-christian perspective, in this case 'decent' entires someone who isn't proud, arrogant, who doesn't swear or get angry, etc, and this is untrue to Satanism. A Satanist has no problem swearing to express themselves, to verbally attack someone or vent anger or frustration, they certainly beleive in pride and thus are to an extent arrogant, and they do most certainly get angry and express and vent these emotions.
A few interesting things to think about here:
Firstly, there IS such a thing as christian mysticism, and there IS such a thing as Christian Magick. Just talk to the priest I live with he will tell you ;) (matter of fact I might ask him to visit the site to confirm this from his own mouth)
now, that said, as evidence for christian magick: I present the catholic Exorcism *gasp*
That is one example of very old christian magick, the catholics just borrowed it from a very old and ancient christian mystic practice. Gnosticism has been around since, I believe, a little after paganism first started. It is but one example of christain mystics. Take these 2 sites for example:
1) http://www.gnosis.org/
2) http://www.gnosiscentral.com/
Very good portrayal of mysticism? I believe so at least. Magick? Yes, if you have gone down the rabbit hole enough to find it! You see, gnostics aren't the fire and brimstone christains people think of them as. this is pretty much how they go about thier study:
Quotethis has has been a wonderfull experience for me, I am not sure if it will be the same for you but it's probably worth a try.
Now there are exceptions, but that is how most gnostics go about thier ways: open minded, skeptical, and very true to thier nature. I don't mean skeptical in the hardcore sense either, but true skepticism, which is clear cut possibilities without taking sides.
Many people on this site are scaring some very good individuals away who are christain, and open minded, and not the fire and brimstone type. To prove that not every christain is a fire and brimstone believer, I provide this site: http://www.tentmaker.org/
This should help those christains who wish to pursue mystic and magickal studies :)
-Jason
Thank you SD for posting those links - they're helpful for me in researching such things as how this may or may not fit into Christian teaching :)
I didn't say it didn't exist, I'm just saying Christian Magic doesn't make sense, since Christ doesn't approve of it, by his association with God.
I'm sure pacifist cannibals exist, but that doesn't mean they have to make sense to me.
Quote from: Tyciolsince Christ doesn't approve of it, by his association with God.
Quite the contrary, evidence has been presented on several sites, including the sites provided above, that christ did, in fact, use magick. How else did he turn water to wine hmm?
laiana: it's no biggie, you might find some more interesting links here: http://www.gatesofmysticism.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10
Or even more intersting links in the links section of this site, or the tentmaker and gnostic sites.
He prayed. He's the son of God, part of the Holy Trinity. He's without sin. At the time he was the destined Saviour of humanity. Comparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all. There have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.
While it's supposedly plausible that all the Christian magicians out there are all on lifelong holy missions from god, performing miracles all along the way, I find it unlikely.
Quote from: TyciolHe prayed. He's the son of God, part of the Holy Trinity. He's without sin. At the time he was the destined Saviour of humanity. Comparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all. There have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.
While it's supposedly plausible that all the Christian magicians out there are all on lifelong holy missions from god, performing miracles all along the way, I find it unlikely.
Few key points here. The biggest being:
QuoteHe prayed
This is magick my friend. It's the fundamental and most powerfull form of magick that a christain has at his or her disposal.
Quote...part of the holy trinity
The holy trinity is a dogmatic belief based on purely nothing. That is why it is called the Trinity
doctrine instead of simply
The Trinity. There is little evidence in the bible that supports the Trinity doctrine directly (note the word directly....)
QuoteHe's without sin
Prove it. Every man has his misgivings, nobody, not even the man jesus was fashioned after, is perfect. He had a lover, and the devil tried to tempt him. If he was truly without sin, the devil couldn't tempt him in the first place, it doesn't matter if he said "no" or not here.
QuoteComparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all.
In what way?
The man is obviously more enlightened than I am, true, but when did I compare myself to him in the first place? (besides the last line ;))
QuoteThere have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.
In my research, I find this to be wrong as well. These people are more than blessed by god: they have chosen the path they set on before god even had something to say to them directly. Take any christain hero: the stories of these individuals goodwill and helpfullness to his peers isn't limited purely to what god decreed him to do, they go above and beyond the call of duty!
Also, how do you define "god?" What is "god" to you? to me, he is the very universe I am living in: the master of himself and creator of himself.
Just a few things to think about
-Jason
If there is a god I don't think it would mind if you did that.
Have to go volunteer, will post about this when I'm back.
QuoteHe prayed
Quote from: SpectralDragonThis is magick my friend. It's the fundamental and most powerfull form of magick that a christain has at his or her disposal.
No, it's not magicK, the term didn't exist back then and the Bible quite clearly makes a difference between speaking clearly and honestly to God, and channeling your emotions through rituals that you expect to get an effect from because of the way you're doing the ritual, and not how honest you are with god. Do you believe he somehow won't hear or pay attention or care if you don't do a bunch of willy nilly antics?
Quote...part of the holy trinity
Quote from: SpectralDragonThe holy trinity is a dogmatic belief based on purely nothing. That is why it is called the Trinity doctrine instead of simply The Trinity. There is little evidence in the bible that supports the Trinity doctrine directly (note the word directly....)
Whatever, this is all irrelevant to the argument, the point is Jesus is divine, that's what I was saying.
QuoteHe's without sin
Quote from: SpectralDragonProve it. Every man has his misgivings, nobody, not even the man jesus was fashioned after, is perfect. He had a lover, and the devil tried to tempt him. If he was truly without sin, the devil couldn't tempt him in the first place, it doesn't matter if he said "no" or not here.
The whole idea was that Jesus died on the cross, yet he had never sinned, and thus he could suffer for our sins. The same thing happens to Aslan in Narnia, read that or the Bible to understand it, I don't care. The Bible does say somewhere he was without sin, but I'm not about to go look it up. I can never find anything in there anymore, it's too big.
QuoteComparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all.
Quote from: SpectralDragonIn what way? The man is obviously more enlightened than I am, true, but when did I compare myself to him in the first place? (besides the last line ;))
By wanting to do miracles on his level, by consciously trying to evoke them, probably for unnecessary reasons that a little elbow grease would fix. Even Jesus knew when to be carpenter.
QuoteThere have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.
Quote from: SpectralDragonIn my research, I find this to be wrong as well. These people are more than blessed by god: they have chosen the path they set on before god even had something to say to them directly. Take any christain hero: the stories of these individuals goodwill and helpfullness to his peers isn't limited purely to what god decreed him to do, they go above and beyond the call of duty!
Christian, not christain. As for helpfulness and good will, I'm all for that. Go do that. These people did NOT try casting 'Christian Magick', they were given the gifts and miracles for god for staying to a life of simplicity and hard work, trying to live well and not sin.
Quote from: SpectralDragonAlso, how do you define "god?" What is "god" to you? to me, he is the very universe I am living in: the master of himself and creator of himself.
Good for you. How I define 'god' is irrelevant to this conversation. I might add though, that with the exception of 'god' I've never heard of anyone creating themselves. Improving yes, creating other things, yes, perhaps we'll create clones of ourselves, but you can't create yourself because you don't exist to create it.
One again, Tycoil, you are bringing dogma and your emotions into the otherwise constructive debate. It is useless to show my point of view to you when you do so, as you are not likely to listen and it only serves to anger you. This is my last attempt at a real debate with you.
QuoteNo, it's not magicK, the term didn't exist back then and the Bible quite clearly makes a difference between speaking clearly and honestly to God, and channeling your emotions through rituals that you expect to get an effect from because of the way you're doing the ritual, and not how honest you are with god. Do you believe he somehow won't hear or pay attention or care if you don't do a bunch of willy nilly antics?
Magick was around long before christianity, as was paganism, satanism, and occultism. Historical records show that Pagan witchraft and practices predated Christianity and Jesus by quite a few millenium. Archeological digs have found what could possibly be occult tools in some of the oldest ruinds in africa.
Magick=a fundamental way of bringing about paranormal or unusual events.
Prayer=A way of asking for the divine for help.
They are one and the same, prayer is magick. It is a very powerfull and usefull magickal gift.
QuoteWhatever, this is all irrelevant to the argument, the point is Jesus is divine, that's what I was saying.
Quite the contrary, you were trying to use the trinity as if it were a proven fact to prove something else. This is flawed logic at best since the trinity is simply a doctrine.
About the jesus topic:
Quoteand thus he could suffer for his own sins.
Exactly my point. :)
QuoteBy wanting to do miracles on his level, by consciously trying to evoke them, probably for unnecessary reasons that a little elbow grease would fix. Even Jesus knew when to be carpenter.
You are making assumptions about my character. When did I say I wanted to do miracles at his level? when did I provide evidence for this? What reasons did you see evidence for me doing something you are assuming I do without just reason?
I love using my abilities, true, but I also enjoy using my physical body and regular mind. Making the assumption I don't just doesn't bode well for you. I used to be a carpenter, Right now I work as a bus boy at a local restruant.
What wrong with seeking enlightenment anyway? is it a sin to try to do so?
It is apparent to me that you are attempting to strike a low blow to my ego with this statement: this is quite unneccisary, I am simply trying to have a debate, not a fight. A good clean debater need not try to do this.
Quote
Christian, not christain
Is this a final, desperate plea to try and make me look like I am not doing? Trying to correct my spelling mistake when you obviously know what I am talking about is a sign that you really think low of those around you and that you are not very fit for this debate. Proof of why I am ignoring you after this point.
QuoteHow I define 'god' is irrelevant to this conversation.
Once again, not so. We are talking about Jesus, god, our veiwpoints on him. A misunderstanding between two beings is the cause of all evil, so before I assume you are christain I want to make sure.
[/quote] Obviously you mistook what I wrote, for refference, read it again: to me
he is the very....
Quote from: SpectralDragonOne again, Tycoil,
Tyciol, spell it right. It angers me more than any of your many other typos.
Quote from: SpectralDragonyou are bringing dogma and your emotions into the otherwise constructive debate.
I'm bringing dogma into it definitely, as it's what the Christian faith is based around. Without it, there would be no knowledge of Christ, no knowledge of history, no knowledge of prayer or the methods used. As for emotion: everyone invests some emotion in things. I personally get emotional about people who don't know how to debate, as I'm quite proficient at it, having had much practise in the role-playing forums I frequent :)
Quote from: SpectralDragonIt is useless to show my point of view to you when you do so, as you are not likely to listen and it only serves to anger you. This is my last attempt at a real debate with you.
It does anger me, but I am getting exceedingly better at ignoring my anger and trying to read arguments and the 50% of your post that isn't arguments, but rather complaints about me and other off-topic things. I feel hypocritical, as that's exactly what I'm doing now, and hopefully you will take the initiative and stop it, as I am too lost in the swirling vortex of contempt to stop until you do, perhaps because I didn't begin it. I look forward to your 'real debate', which I will refer back to regarding the things you say...
QuoteNo, it's not magicK, the term didn't exist back then and the Bible quite clearly makes a difference between speaking clearly and honestly to God, and channeling your emotions through rituals that you expect to get an effect from because of the way you're doing the ritual, and not how honest you are with god. Do you believe he somehow won't hear or pay attention or care if you don't do a bunch of willy nilly antics?
Quote from: SpectralDragonMagick was around long before christianity, as was paganism, satanism, and occultism. Historical records show that Pagan witchraft and practices predated Christianity and Jesus by quite a few millenium. Archeological digs have found what could possibly be occult tools in some of the oldest ruinds in africa.
You missed the point. I said the 'term' magick, not magick. Pay attention.
Quote from: SpectralDragonMagick=a fundamental way of bringing about paranormal or unusual events. Prayer=A way of asking for the divine for help. They are one and the same, prayer is magick. It is a very powerfull and usefull magickal gift.
From an outside religious philosopher like myself, yes, praying is a form of magick. The Bible, however, differentiates it from all other forms of magick. Praying is seen as sacred, and the only proper way to commune with another being (God) and bring about supernatural events if his whims declare it, upon being impressed by your emotion, situation, and truthfulness. All other forms are not prayer, referred to as magic, or witchcraft, and thus wrong, and unholy.
Quote from: SpectralDragonQuite the contrary, you were trying to use the trinity as if it were a proven fact to prove something else. This is flawed logic at best since the trinity is simply a doctrine.
Not contrary at all. One doesn't need the Trinity to prove Jesus' divinity. I didn't think it necessary to mention the virgin birth, being the son of God, dying for man's sins and being his path to heaven from then on, facing Satan, all that stuff. Apparently I was wrong to assume you would think about it.
Quoteand thus he could suffer for his own sins.
Quote from: SpectralDragonExactly my point. :)
'Real debate' eh? I meant 'our sins' and edited my post to reflect that. You knew it was implied.
Quote from: SpectralDragonYou are making assumptions about my character. When did I say I wanted to do miracles at his level? when did I provide evidence for this? What reasons did you see evidence for me doing something you are assuming I do without just reason?
Magic is a shortcut. One who studies it as a life's work needs to get a life. Prayer should be all a Christian needs. Since god, is, as I'm told, omnipotent, if he chooses not to heed a prayer there must be a good reason for it, probably that he wants you to face it without his help. So why then, call upon Him with magic? Prayer should be all that is needed. Any more is to insult, or as I like to call it: sinsult.
Quote from: SpectralDragonI love using my abilities, true, but I also enjoy using my physical body and regular mind. Making the assumption I don't just doesn't bode well for you. I used to be a carpenter, Right now I work as a bus boy at a local restruant.
Good for you, but I was referring more to Christian Magi as a whole rather than you specifically. I can see too many of them relying on it, as an indulgence or an escape.
Quote from: SpectralDragonWhat wrong with seeking enlightenment anyway? is it a sin to try to do so?
That depends on what kind of enlightenment you mean. Did I bring this up or did you? I can't remember talking about it...
Quote from: SpectralDragonIt is apparent to me that you are attempting to strike a low blow to my ego with this statement: this is quite unneccisary, I am simply trying to have a debate, not a fight. A good clean debater need not try to do this.
I'm normally a very good clean debater, but when angered I get nasty. My shots to your pride through previous posts and this one are my way of releasing that anger. I do suppress it enough to veil my insults cleanly beneath polite argument as to not cause a ruckus though :) The funny thing is: this statement you're referring to actually wasn't meant to be insulting, at least any more at all than my other chidings of your arguments by giving clear specific biblical references that contradict them.
Quote from: SpectralDragonQuote
Christian, not christain
Is this a final, desperate plea to try and make me look like I am not doing?
Yes. Suck it up.
Quote from: SpectralDragonTrying to correct my spelling mistake when you obviously know what I am talking about is a sign that you really think low of those around you
Only those that can't spell.
Quote from: SpectralDragonand that you are not very fit for this debate.
I didn't know one had to like everyone around them unconditionally to be suited to debate facts. Feel free to argue against my moralities and social problems, but they have nothing at all to do with arguing concepts and contradicting facts. Dismissing someone's arguments because you can't take the comments they make along with them is somewhat childish. While I may poke fun at my opponent's flaws, and am angered by their annoyances, I don't believe this hinders my ability to look at what they're saying and respond to it directly in a sensible manner. If I have done so, I apologize, please point out the instances, suggest an improvement, and I will keep that note with me for the next time, hopefully entering it into my debating methods.
Quote from: SpectralDragonProof of why I am ignoring you after this point.
I suppose you mean post not point, as I see further replies below... but if you choose not to respond that's your perogative.
Quote from: SpectralDragonQuoteHow I define 'god' is irrelevant to this conversation.
Once again, not so. We are talking about Jesus, god, our veiwpoints on him. A misunderstanding between two beings is the cause of all evil, so before I assume you are christain I want to make sure.
If it is so important to you, I will tell you I am NOT a Christian, but being raised one, with a family full of them, having read the bible, debated with many of them, and still going to church occasionally, I feel I am very well informed about them. If you want to prove my ignorance of this faith, do so by negating my arguments, not my affiliation, beliefs, 'enlightenment', or attitude. That is, if you do so choose to dignify my undignified self with a reply. Toodles!
I am a Christian and studied theology formally. I am also have been a practicing magician for many years. Any quick study of High Magic will show you that the Pioneers of groups like the Golden Dawn many were Christians, all were theistic based.
Celestial Magic is primarily practiced by Christians. Check out //the%20politics%20of%20nonbeing web site. A study of the Qabalah shows it is based in Jewish mysticism which is part of the Judeo/Christian history. Many of the great people of history where Christians and magicians, such as Sir Issac Newton or Lord Francis Bacon, etc. Saying you want to be a Christian witch is off the mark as modern witchcraft is primarily Wicca and is pagan based. But being a Christian does not preclude you from studying magic. There are areas in magic that you should avoid, which is true of so many things, you have to seperate the wheat from the tares. So don't give up you are in good company. :wink:
Kerux
Are you also a fan of founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, James Madison, as well as perhaps Benjamin Franklin, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw and James Knox Polk?
QuoteAre you also a fan of founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, James Madison, as well as perhaps Benjamin Franklin, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw and James Knox Polk?
Funny you should mention benjamin franklin, the fellow was a satanist.
Yes, quite funny indeed :) I wonder why I would mention something like that... oh yeah... something to do with everyone thinking the US was founded as a Christian nation when so many founders thought it was ridiculous...
I don't know why you would say the founding fathers thought Christianity was ridiculous, that certainly was not true. In our day we have little notion how Christianity permeated every aspect of the US society in the late 18th Century. Any objective study of the era would show this. However, there were a few that were what we would call Deists; such as Franklin and Jefferson, but they were both ranking members of the Illuminati and you don't belong to that group without a profound belief in the Spirit world and God. I can assure you that none of them were atheists, as atheism was very rare at that time frame. With a few exceptions, of course, mostly among some of the European intellectuals.
Kerux
Quote from: keruxI don't know why you would say the founding fathers thought Christianity was ridiculous, that certainly was not true. In our day we have little notion how Christianity permeated every aspect of the US society in the late 18th Century. Any objective study of the era would show this. However, there were a few that were what we would call Deists; such as Franklin and Jefferson, but they were both ranking members of the Illuminati and you don't belong to that group without a profound belief in the Spirit world and God. I can assure you that none of them were atheists, as atheism was very rare at that time frame. With a few exceptions, of course, mostly among some of the European intellectuals.
Kerux
It's quite well known how christianity became an integral part of US society: just take a look at any history book. Before we revolutionized the individuals who came to america were mostly of branches of christian faiths trying to get away from the main brach.
Oh no somebody said the big "C" word!! lol
As far as the original post..
If you get inspiration from the bible and you find meaning in Christianity, you can still do magick.
Find passages from the bible that you can relate to, for the particular situation you're in, and use that (or a similar version that you may write yourself) as your incantation.
There is nothing wrong with that.
Regardless of how many of us here happen to be a bit salty towards organized religion, I think we all can agree, that it's the feeling and passion that you put into the ritual, that's important.
If that's what you relate to, there is no reason not to use it.
-Monica
Quote from: keruxI don't know why you would say the founding fathers thought Christianity was ridiculous, that certainly was not true. In our day we have little notion how Christianity permeated every aspect of the US society in the late 18th Century. Any objective study of the era would show this. However, there were a few that were what we would call Deists; such as Franklin and Jefferson, but they were both ranking members of the Illuminati and you don't belong to that group without a profound belief in the Spirit world and God. I can assure you that none of them were atheists, as atheism was very rare at that time frame. With a few exceptions, of course, mostly among some of the European intellectuals.
Kerux
The "founding fathers" of America were thinkers and revolutionaries, they have made some pro-Christian statements certainly for that is the religion they were born in, but they also made a whole number of anti_Christian statements and I believe these contradictions simply mean they were THINKERS who had the guts to question their long held beliefs in no uncertain terms:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1777/fathers.html
and this is obviously an anti-Christian site:
http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/founding-fathers-xtianity.html
This is even a more interesting site for it states that REAL CHRISTIANS ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE REVOLUTIONS:
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
Now this guy is obviously a "Son of the Mind" (Manu), an Aryan...not a "son of Adamah "clay...
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. MY OWN MIND IS MY OWN CHURCH."--Thomas Paine, _Excerpts_from_The_Age_of_Reason:_Selected_Writings_of_Thomas_ Paine_, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342
Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)
A thread regarding Magic and Christianity has somehow digressed into a debate regarding, first the validity of the historicity of a predominantly Christian presupposition and world view, at the time of the US founding, which is irrefutable and now perhaps what one would call a comparative religions debate. I can only say that both topics which are outside the original question should be addressed in their own threads. :wink:
Kerux
Don't complain when you're not contributing kerux, that's what many would call being a hyphenated word, the first part being 'smart'.
As for the other topics, we branch off only because the main topic has already been discussed, and we are looking at other aspects. It has to do with the idea that Christianity is logical and all encompassing, and how everyone believes it leads to success, when it doesn't always do that.
As for the nation being predominantly Christian when it was founded: of course it was. It was built by British pioneers, and the British were a Christian people. The founding fathers did not build it based upon Christianity though, and many had a negative viewpoint of it. The nation is build on democratic principles and freedom, which religion does not support.
Interesting post, although i have encountered few "Christian Wicca's/Magicans" even before. I wonder how do you differ magic from prayer? Do "Christian Magicans" agree that,
prayer - asking God for some favor accordance to God's will. I.e. accepting the answer even if the answer is not as expected by the worshipper.
magic - trying to influence supernational powers, or things by using certain techniques
Or how do you define those 2 things?
Also: are some teachings in Prosperity Theology (Kenyon, Hagin, Copeland, etc) kind of magic? Or are they purely based on auto-suggestion?
Final point: how much auto-suggestion is involved in magic? For example someone in this thread claimed to use names of 4 archangels to chant some stuff. What makes you think that this chanting is something more than pure auto-suggestion? Of course it can be asked about the simple prayer too. Overally there is very little difference between pure faith and auto-suggestion IMO.
Thanks!
Apparently they think that casting arcane rituals is fine as long as you have Jesus in mind, even if the bible says you're only supposed to pray.
Quote from: aryanknight666Funny you should mention benjamin franklin, the fellow was a satanist.
LOL@!@!!!! :lol:
Any spell which would negate or suppress someone's free will can be considered wrong. Love spells are the first thing which comes to mind. They seem innocent but forcing your will on others isn't nice.
Quote from: MadLordNadLove spells are the first thing which comes to mind.
What is the difference of love spells and praying for someone and wishing that God would give him/her the very best? If you are Christian and cast this spell in the name of Jesus, then why don't you use prayer as Jesus himself taught? Why do you need spells?
Well, my understanding of love spells is trying to FORCE someone to love you. That's wrong.
Quote from: CyrusQuote from: MadLordNadLove spells are the first thing which comes to mind.
What is the difference of love spells and praying for someone and wishing that God would give him/her the very best? If you are Christian and cast this spell in the name of Jesus, then why don't you use prayer as Jesus himself taught? Why do you need spells?
look at the results of the "2". how often do you see a physical answer through prayer, which you do get answers and all BUT look at the outcome of a spell forcing freewill. You almost automatically Physically see the results as someone who starts being obsessive which can be a backfire slapping you in the head. if you think about it there is difference in prayer and ma
gick[/i] literally. Money spells for example... you can pray all year long and most likely your not going to start seeing money appearing easier and coming your way. spell, is the opposite.... however i am a believer in god and Jesus thus i am a Christian but i am also fascinated by magick. I do believe the two do not mix..
EVERYONE has their beliefs, JUST LIKE RELIGION how many different beliefs are out there, which one is correct. yeah some resemble for the most but not all. you go with what you believe is true, if the other person disagrees that is
ONLY because he believes otherwise. their is no point in trying to point evidence in religion to. Tyciol seems like your pretty angry with alot of people who post their input. don't flame so much and let people post their beliefs, that is all it is not saying it is right NOR wrong, just a
beliefMike001
Quote from: mike001
look at the results of the "2". how often do you see a physical answer through prayer, which you do get answers and all BUT look at the outcome of a spell forcing freewill. You almost automatically Physically see the results as someone who starts being obsessive which can be a backfire slapping you in the head. if you think about it there is difference in prayer and magick[/i] literally. Money spells for example... you can pray all year long and most likely your not going to start seeing money appearing easier and coming your way. spell, is the opposite....
Those examples show pretty well, that someone cannot be humble Christian and magican at the same time. If your prayers don't get answered, then one reason might be that God is not willing to give this what you prayed for, at least not this way you want it. And then comes in "Christian magican" and starts to force things to happen. I see OBVIOUS contradiction here: this "magican" is purely acting against the will of God :lol:
Now now, just because many of the founding fathers were part of the Hellfire Club and didn't like Christianity doesn't make them Satanists.
Quote from: TyciolNow now, just because many of the founding fathers were part of the Hellfire Club and didn't like Christianity doesn't make them Satanists.
The Canadian founding fathers were in a hellfire club? :lol:
:? What's the Hellfire Club?
Quote from: ChristianMagickHello Iv been studying Christian mysticism and Stuff like that for some time now. Iv been reading the Key of solomon and stuff. But What Is really frustrating is I want to do witchcraft But i don't wanna Say Stuff to like other gods cause I'm a christian witch .
I wanna know how someone Who believes in God how can they do magick ? And if anyone in here is familiar of what I'm talking about , how Can a Christian do magick?
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
See ya
Albert
Well i am still Christian and I am a mystic and magician
it is possible
and Jesus still appears in the realms teaching me and my peers
with great love for us
so we are not an abomination
how many right wing fundamentalist
that insist on literal interpretations never project
never see or hear their godhead at all
how shallow is their faith
read the Bible and see how much mysticism is there
i don't think it is wrong to learn
it is what we are called to do
it is God's greatest aspiration for us
it is what we do with what we learn
that makes the difference
i agree that dogma is a trap
have faith and discernment
learn without prejudice
and open your mind and heart to the universality of the Godhead
you can be a Christian still
but your beliefs will become much wider than that on a magicians path
the alchemist is a christian magic path
the kaballah is a Jewish magic path
follow your heart
find your own truth
you do not have to give up basic Christian tenets at all
but you will have to make room for other beliefs
like the reality of the Female aspect of the Godhead
and become a part of a wider perspective
of universal tolerance and compassion
as for what Christianity does to women
that is the institution and humanity
go beyond that to the love of Christ
which was not exclusive to the teaching of men
but included women and children of both genders
Thomas Jefferson was a man ahead of his own time
but it shocked me to learn as a child
he felt that all children should be educated freely poor and rich
but his definition was meant to include black male slaves
and not white girls at all
they sat on the steps after chores
and tried to hear lessons thru the windows of these sort of schools
and the freed black male slave was given the rights
to own property and vote
before the white female
in USA .
No it is not Christ
it is humanity
but we can change that
...and it still didn't replied to my question: why should a Christian use magic, if he/she can pray? Doesn't it indicate that his/her faith is too weak, or that he/she is out there to try things that go against will of God? Because if it's God's will, then why don't you pray and ask for it? Why use magic instead? :lol:
Why would a Christian not use Magic
or any mystical means that would
without harm to another
allow the mystic to view the face of Christ
and hear the voices of the angels ?
Pope John Paul II said that meditation is the most sincere form of prayer
for in meditation we listen to what God wants to tell us
instead of praying for what we want
God is not the Santa Claus of the Universe
our relationship with God is not supposed to be
One Way
where we do the begging
and God does the providing
God helps those that help themselves
We must learn to make this a better world
This is a way that we have been shown to do this
It is a quest for answers and a path to enlightenment
and learning about love and light and becoming the Great Work of God
This marvellous energy body was architected by God
this thing called magic is the control of the elements
to make the energy body work
God gave us these tools
in order to heal as Jesus did
in order to exorcise as Jesus did
and in order to project to the spiritual realms
Jesus said if we had faith we could do all that he did
and we should heal each other
and we should hear the angels
He said to follow him .
So what bothers you the most ?...the word Magic?
Call it something else then .
It is not evil to follow God .
All paths lead to God .
This is a path
to become enlightened
and prayer is part of it
but prayer is not enough
service to others is necessary
in order for us to grow and shine .
In meditation we go to the realms God created
to teach us and enlighten us
I did pray . I prayed to walk closer to Jesus .
This is a favourite hymn :
"The Lord is my Shepherd and I want to follow
wherever he leads me
wherever he goes
and while on the journey
to where we are going
he's walking beside me
or waiting for me .
I want to go to meet him there
to lay myself down at his side
the Lord is my shepherd
and I want to follow
wherever he leads me
wherever he goes . "
I do pray daily
I go to Catholic Mass too.
My prayers for enlightenment are met in this path
that has been followed by many Christians before me .
The path to God exists within each of us
so that we
as humanity
as the most marvellous toy
may approach and walk more closely
and learn
more
about
LOVE
This is our raison d'etre.
This is the most
important work
and nothing gives
more satisfaction
in this life
than to fly with angels
and hear their songs
of unending praise
this is not wrong
this is not wasted effort.
God wants us all
to become
enlightened
so that we may
become
all that we can be
and so that we will truly
know how to love one another
as Jesus said ,
"this is my commandment
this is the greatest commandment
Love one another as I have loved you . "
Should a parent work to buy a house for their children
or should they sit in prayer and ask God to give it to them ?
We can pray for the interview or the job or the right home or partner and these little steps will come to us but we cannot expect that it will all
fall into place without some elbow grease on our own part .
God gives us the tools .
We must pick them up and follow him
take up the cross and follow
that is the way
that i go anyway
and if I see Jesus and angels where
it cannot be wrong
this path is not without pain or temptations
sometimes there are trials but i am going to do my best
to follow this path
all the days of my life .
Pax Domini