First of all, "friendly harmless spirit", and Goetia don't go together. The Goetia is a list of demons and ow they can bve summoned. If you're new, I don't suggest you try this.
spirits are all over, though. You just have to sense them. there are elementals, ghosts, youki, and the list goes on.[;)]
xnedu - "And what exactly is goetia?"
the goetia is a list of spirits indexed by King Solomon in his lesser key, the clavicula salomanis. traditionally these spirits are all considered demons and very dangerous, but i myself would dispute that classification. that having been said, all the goetic spirits are pretty damn powerful as spirits go and they don't like having their time wasted, so yeah if you're just playing about with them they, in turn, might choose to have some fun with you. anyway, you can access an on-line version of the lesser key of solomon here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/kos/index.htm
"Can I really call a spirit and talk to it?"
yes, though you'd have to evoke it to audible manifestation to do that. usually it's easier to just communicate telepathically third-eye with them.
"I mean how would one go about with that?"
well, if you take a look at my homepage there's a whole section there on how to summon demons. of especial interest to one just starting out with this stuff is my post on the following thread, which deals with the basics of summoning demons for a beginner:
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=3887&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
it's from a direct magick standpoint, which i personally tend to prefer, finding it's the fastest and most effective way by means of which to produce results. for more on direct magick you might like to check out the following thread on just that topic:
http://www.darkforum.com/showthread.php?t=31501
if you'd prefer to try a more traditional ritual approach, check out solomon's lesser key reffered to and linked to above. for more on the ritualized approach to demonic summonings you can check out the following threads, which basically have a lot of organized links on the topic, specifcally for the beginner:
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=8182
and:
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4807
so i think you've got plenty of solid info and guidance to work with on that one now... [;)]
"Definitely it doesn't understand English does it?"
yes it does, and every other known language besides, plus quite a few unknown ones too. but, as i mentioned above, it's usually easier to just communicate telepathically with them, directly using the relevant concepts as opposed to going through the (often somewhat inaccurate) medium of language.
"Basically I would like to know whether I could summon them in physical form... like can I touch them with my hands...?"
yes, but this would require evoking them to physical manifestation, a most advanced technique and probably best avoided by the beginner. still, if you are interested in pursuing this line of approach, check out "Summoning Spirits: The Art of Magical Evocation" by Konstantinos (available here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567183816/qid=1077470282/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7645426-9903216?v=glance&s=books )
which details how you can go about evoking spirits to visible manifestation; you'll then just have to adapt the technique given there, and modify it somewhat, to get the spirit through to physical manifestation. when you're ready to do so, you should be able to figure out the relevant blanks in this regard yourself. that having been said, whilst it's not the hardest thing to evoke a spirit to physical manifestation, to keep that spirit in the physical is a most advanced approach, as it requires giving the spirit enough physical karma to keep it in the physical. this, in fact, is what i'm currently working on myself, but on a fairly large scale involving large numbers of higher-plane entities...
hope this helps.
all the best,
Oazaki.
Hello Xnedu
I would not go to any satanist websites for evocations. The evocations are designed to make a pact or cause other spiritual problems. Rhinegirl you should know this also. You can get anything that Satan can give you by God without all the headaches.
The best thing to do is read a book on basic magic. Ritual Magic by Michael Kraig is a good book. Michael Harner is good for Shamanism and there are many excellent beginning books out for wicca or any other magical discipline.
Look at what you want to do. A familiar is a spirit of any type that is a helper to you. it is always talked about in the witch trials and old grimoires. The Goetia is the Lesser key of Solomon. There is also the Greater Key of Solomon. There are many websites with classical magic books upon them. You can find interesting books with a little research upon amazon.com also.
Nita
quote:
Originally posted by Nita
Hello Xnedu
I would not go to any satanist websites for evocations. The evocations are designed to make a pact or cause other spiritual problems. Rhinegirl you should know this also. You can get anything that Satan can give you by God without all the headaches.
consider this: would not pacts with god also have implications? for in the operation of karma there is no effect without a cause and both sides of the scale will always balance...
also, bear in mind why lucifer was thrown out of heaven to start with. for giving mankind to eat of the tree of knowledge. whilst to humanity, for eating from that tree, what was "god's" reaction? this "god" who would have you believe that a paradise was ours to lose if only we had not eaten from that horrid tree. for that one small taste of knowledge he repaid us with disease, pain, hunger, brutality mortality and original sin.
a slight overreaction perhaps?
yet without the ability to do for ourselves, to learn, to grow, what purpose would existence serve? our spirit would whither and turn to dust. you call this paradise, tis lost world of eden? i tell you it is not. it is a living death, a perverse existence. why would a "god" wish such a thing? what good a race with no purpose other than to praise his greatness?
imagine: a life of utter subjugation and servitude. all for him who is the Shepherd. and we, a flock of worthless, miserable beings. less than sheep. less than alive, only existing at the mercy of a superior force. an irony, is it not, that a shepherd's duty is to protect the herd until the day of slaughter?
i revile this image, as should you. we should seek more than this for ourselves and for our children. a life of slavery is a life of hell, regardless of the master. i am worthy of more than such an eden and i wish it not.
for this garden of god, and of meekly bowing to god's will and laws, is no freedom. it is damnation.
make pacts with neither god nor satan i say. stand on your own two feet and walk your own path. take the burden that is yours to bear, the task that is yours to fufill, and hoist it on your own shoulders. seek not a crutch for you are not lame. and it is both unseemly and slower to hobble when you can walk and even run.
seek also the truth for yourself. do not take on board the standard line of religion and society merely because it is believed and accepted by the many. examine your own emotions and your own fears and ask why they are there. ask, perhaps,
who put them there .
and remember, lucifer's actions were not those of one who would seek to hold humanity back. he sought to give us knowledge and guide us to freedom. with those two attributes, we can reach the stars and increase our power without limit. would an enemy do that for an opponent? give his opponent the very tools by means of which to, one day, beat him? i think not. rather, an enemy would seek to keep you in bondage, disempowered and unaware of your own greatness, your own potential, and how high you can reach.
learn to think for yourselves people. learn to feel for yourselves. and accept not limitations, no matter who tries to impose them on you. for only thus will you ever be free.
and praise not lucifer either. for your faith should be channeled within your own soul. faith in thyself, faith in thy dreams, faith in thy abilities. for only thus will you come to stand free and tall and live a life of your own making, rather than dancing as a puppett on the strings, to another's tune and for another's whims.
yet recognise who is a friend and who an enemy. who has stood by you and who has sought to cast you down. and then look beyond that for there is a wider drama being played out here too and the highest purpose is not love but justice. and the end times are now upon us.
Oazaki.
hell... u do impress me with your speech oazaki... but i just cant even begin to think of god as someone who wants to keep us in bondage and deny us knowledge. true i am new to magick but i do know some thing ( however meagre it is ) regarding the good and bad. i think there is some truth in what nita says.
i just dont know how to put all i feel in to words.
but the basic point is to think of god as someone who doesnt wish us good is absurd.
okkk i have more queries...
has anyone out here has personally tried to evoke any spirits. can u tell me of ur experience?? I searched the net. There are a lot of material to help me invoke those goetic spirits but literally none to familiarize my self with the good spirits or elementals. How do I invoke them and how do I talk to them. I guess elementals are pretty good in nature so I thought maybe I will try to evoke them first...
Hey I read some of ur entries in other forums as well
Tell me guys will the spirits simply grant me wishes if I ask them to once after I evoked them?
And what about the great abyss??? And the worlds beneath and about it??? where do I find more material on that subject... I hope u giys can help me... I am totally lost.
And hey do u need any special gifts to perform all these magic acts in general??? Some of the books I have read is totally high level language and I don't seem to understand what the authors are trying to say...
Don't those entities have to fear karma too? Do the beings in the physical plane alone have to worry about their karma or consequences of the action. If they do something bad then don't they pay for it? tell me one more thing... if they chose to, can they pick out anyone from any world and hurt them... like can they reach someone here in the physical plane without prior contact or his or her knowledge...
Bye guys...
and also thanks for all the people who have taken time to reply my queries ( i mean it )
quote:
Originally posted by xnedu
i think there is some truth in what nita says.
i just dont know how to put all i feel in to words.
but the basic point is to think of god as someone who doesnt wish us good is absurd.
there is indeed some truth to what nita says. the key in all of this is to realise that there are various levels to god, that there is more than one plane above the great void. the lucifer vs god thing is about lucifer vs kal (lord of the causal plane) and, in another way, also about another entity known as lucifer vs one of the netities formerly known as YHWH. but anyways, this is a big, big topic and i've already covered it in detail elsewhere. if you're interested in investigating it further, check out my homepage.
all the best,
Oazaki.
Oazaki,
Your statements are in harmony with exactly why there was fall of man/woman. Your choices are based on your timing, not God's. You want what you want before God.Your's is the same story as the commoners (Adam & Eve, as it is written).
If the right choice had been taken from the beginning, the rest of the story would be different. So, as it goes, if you don't get the first truth, you will not understand any truth that follows. For instance, I don't think your correct in who Lucifer represents.
Waiting on God. Why is this such a blow to the ego?
The Tree of Knowledge exists NOW. The things which followed that are written in the Bible has to do with the choice man/woman made at that time, thus the story is written. You can't understand what followed if you don't understand waiting for God. One token of obedience broken by man/woman, effected the rest. Go back to the beginning, read it again. Otherwise, continue on your journey of your own personal power struggle. Your confusing "service to God" with "waiting on God" (a time factor). Your saying man/woman can precede the natural order,and I think your wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Oazaki
consider this: would not pacts with god also have implications? for in the operation of karma there is no effect without a cause and both sides of the scale will always balance...
also, bear in mind why lucifer was thrown out of heaven to start with. for giving mankind to eat of the tree of knowledge. whilst to humanity, for eating from that tree, what was "god's" reaction? this "god" who would have you believe that a paradise was ours to lose if only we had not eaten from that horrid tree. for that one small taste of knowledge he repaid us with disease, pain, hunger, brutality mortality and original sin.
a slight overreaction perhaps?
Are you saying that you take the story of the Garden of Eden literally rather than as an allegory? What about other Eastern paths that have no mention of such things as "original sin" etc?
Also i would be interested in what you have to say about Lucifer as this name is only mentioned once in the Christian bible (not the Original Hebrew version) and has proven to be a mistranslation for "Son of the Morning" and was referring to the King of Babylon.
btw Lucifer is actually a minor Roman god; he is actually a personification of Venus when she is visable in the Morning sky, ie the Morning Star. For this reason he is given his name Lucifer= 'light bearer'.
You can find plenty of references to him in Roman texts and poetry, such as Ovid for example. On the whole he is a fairly insignificant god, but he is *not* 'evil' in any way.
This only came about later when Christian mythology associated his name with their Judeo-christian Satan figure; they probably just liked the name!
Of course, if you are of the hard-core Christian mindset then you will regard ALL pre-christian gods as 'evil' and make them demons, but then Lucifer seems like a pretty bad choice for a lord of evil, woudnt Zeus or Jupiter be more appropriate?
Douglas
All hail JVPITER OPTIMVS MAXIMVS!!!
PS Regarding the Goetia, from looking at the names of the 72 demons, it is clear that most if not all of them are actually corrupted names of old gods ie Astaroth is actually Astarte, an old eastern goddess who was still popular during the Roman empire.
I also read that the term 'Goetia' refers to 'Goes' or 'magician'. A 'Goes' was a name (either Greek or Latin) given to magicians in the imperial period, but it had negative connotations, like 'snake oil salesman' or whatever. A Goes was in no way related only to Judaic magic but could refer to any kind of magician.
Personally, I dont buy all the crap about them originally being sealed in a drum by Soloman etc... yeah right, so the Goddess Astarte was sealed in a drum by Soloman... hardly.
If we strip away all the mumbo jumbo, what we have is a system for evoking 72 pagan gods and goddesses, however they have all been 'blackened' as they are seen through the lens of a Christian viewpoint that makes all pagan gods 'evil demons'.
Therefore, the idea that they are all evil doesnt make much sense; of course, if you want them to be then Im sure they will oblige!
Anyway, I think that all evocations are actually bringing up powerful forces of our own subconsious, rather than a true external being; not that this makes them any less powerful or dangerous because of that.
Didnt Ale Crowely reckon that all demons were products of our own psyches?
All we really have to fear is ourselves, fear of the unkown, therefore know thyself. "The Universe is Mental."
quote:
All we really have to fear is ourselves, fear of the unkown, therefore know thyself. "The Universe is Mental."
I think so.....[:)]
Gandalf,
Interesting things you say. I believe the subconscious produces things. How about those things external?
Is there a list of the 72 characters mentioned? Have you ever heard or read of St. Germaine? Does this one fit in this catagory? And what is your take on Avatars? I read about them here and found it quit fascinating. These are spirits who come and go as they please between the astral and physical.
Hi Wisp_
Yeah the list of 72 demons/gods are found in 'the Lesser Key of Soloman'. Just remember though that despite what the unknown auther states, the 'Lesser Key', just like its companion book 'The Greater key' were NOT originally by Soloman, only by someone *pretending* to be Soloman!
The 'Greater key' was written sometime in the 14th century and the 'Lesser Key' with the list of 72 beings and their seals was written in the 17th century! You will notice that all the heirarchies of demons are written using medieval terminology, ie Duke, Count etc; also there are references to christian stuff as well; so the author slipped up on a couple of points!
All the references to Counts, Dukes and so on are just ways of grading how powerful the particular being is; the constant references to them being from 'Hell' and so on is another slip up, as 'Hell' was not yet an established concept in Soloman's time.
I was just flicking through a a goetic manual on my bookshelf which lists them all and their seals, but you can get them all by looking at any copy of the 'lesser key'; I think it's online these days.
This doesnt mean that the evocations dont work, it just means that the story pasted onto them about Soloman and how he trapped all these deities in a drum etc can be taken with a large pinch of salt.
Some magicians choose to accept it as it adds to the mystery.
Others prefer to eject the mumbo-jumbo and get on with what the Lesser Key is all about: evoking powerful spirit forces to do things for them!
As I said, most of these beings are actually old pagan gods from a wide range of origins and are only 'demons' in the christian sense of the word (ie all pagan gods are demons). Its really up to you how 'evil' you want them to be; some Christian influenced magicians like to seperate the nicer ones into 'Angels' as opposed to the 'demons' who are not so nice; but really this is just a christian interpretation.
I am still unsure as to whether 'demons' and gods in general are 'real' in the sense that they are sentient and have an independant reality or if they are instead projections from some dim regions of your subconsious mind; either way they are powerful and can be dangerous if not approached with care.
After reading about the occult notion of 'thought forms' and how they can be created and even seem to come alive in some way, I wonder if ALL gods that have been worshipped by many cultures over the years have come to life on the astral level through all the belief poured into them; if this is the case then it can be said that all deities are real and have an independent reality.
Concerning ol' St Germain: I have heard of St Germain, there are many stories circulating about this guy, apparantly an alchemist who discovered the secret of immortality and now wonders the earth etc. One story I read even said that he was the guy who secretly brought about the industrial revolution in Britain, by giving secret knowledge to scientists.
As far as I know he has no specific connection with Goetic magick though.
Douglas
There are quite a few versions of "The Goetia" published now and some are indeed medieval in concept. The only version I have now is Crowley's illustrated (New Falcon Publications, 2000). This is less 'starchy' and more in line with the Golden Dawn way of thinking (if that's your thing). It does state at one point that the spirits of the Goetia are indeed portions of the human brain. There is also a wonderful account of an evocation of 'Orobus' one of the spirits of the Goetia which makes for a wonderful read in itself.
"If God didn't exist man would have had to invent Him."
Gandalf,
Thanks for the info. I hadn't thought about angels and/or demons being labeled by one particular standard. I'll have to try to find this list of 72. And thanks too for the little bit more info on Germain.
Mass consciousness producing something like a god is an interesting possibilty I guess. Personally I have a tendency to believe the spirits already exist (in some form or fashion). It's the names given to them that causes some of the confusion. I've read some of your interesting posts on the subject of producing various things by way of thought form. Maybe it's has to do with each person's individual vulnerability to accept things they hear or see. If their that vulnerable, are they capable of this? And another thing,can anyone who suffers from a bad case of vanity really produce anything lasting or valuable? The common problem with physical man/woman is vanity. Take away this, and you have little remaining. After you take away something common like this, and also run it through the filter of normal personality development (Carl Jung's process of Individuation,I believe it's called), then you have something possibly permanent or lasting. Or at least, the possibilty of less confusion at a later time (if there is a later time).
quote:
I was just flicking through a a goetic manual on my bookshelf which lists them all and their seals, but you can get them all by looking at any copy of the 'lesser key'; I think it's online these days.
Thank you, I will try to find this.
quote:
I am still unsure as to whether 'demons' and gods in general are 'real' in the sense that they are sentient and have an independant reality or if they are instead projections from some dim regions of your subconsious mind; either way they are powerful and can be dangerous if not approached with care.
I really like this statement. I guess this is the big question in a nutshell. And also,how real are the dangers? I have a tendency to think dangers are man or woman made. Like for instance, while your driving or riding in a vehicle, aren't you at the mercy of something higher than yourself that you won't be a victim of your own making and choices?
Thanks again for your many positive thoughts and research shared,Gandalf.
btw, concerning thought forms, you can find info on this from occult literature. It certainly seems to be a real phenomenom. As I mentioned elsewhere, there was a group of para-psychologists who decided to see if this worked so they met up to create such a thought form.
After a few sessions noises started to be heard and then the thought form, whom they named 'Philip' began to speak. As the sesssions went on, he grew in power until he was able to do astonishing things like lifting the table up into the air!
One of the most interesting things was that rathr than just being some kind of souless 'energy program' (for want of a better term) which could only fulfil simple tasks, 'Philip' really seesmed to develop his own personality and really seemed to come alive in some way.
The group later finished up the experiment after which they dismissed 'Philip'.
This raises some questions:
Was 'Philip' REALLY sentient, or was he just a very sophisticated 'thought-program' who was very good at imitating a sentient being. The same kind of argument woudnt be out of place in an AI lab today!
If he did come to life in some way, then what happens when the group is finished with the thought form and no longer call him; since he will no longer receive energy, is it the case that he will fade away into nothingess after a few weeks/months/years? If he is alive in some way, isnt this cruel to bring him to life only for him to fade away?
On the other hand, perhaps once a being has came to life they are then permanent.
This then brings us on to deites, if they attain life in the same way, then do they fade out if people stop believing in them, or do they just drop in power but still stay around?
Anyway, for those who are interested in thought-form creation, I have posted a new topic in the magic forum, detailing an occult technique for creating such an entity.
Douglas
quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf
After a few sessions noises started to be heard and then the thought form, whom they named 'Philip' began to speak. As the sesssions went on, he grew in power until he was able to do astonishing things like lifting the table up into the air!
One of the most interesting things was that rathr than just being some kind of souless 'energy program' (for want of a better term) which could only fulfil simple tasks, 'Philip' really seesmed to develop his own personality and really seemed to come alive in some way.
A question could be asked here as to whether it was a thoughtform or some being pretending to be "Philip".
quote:
If he did come to life in some way, then what happens when the group is finished with the thought form and no longer call him; since he will no longer receive energy, is it the case that he will fade away into nothingess after a few weeks/months/years? If he is alive in some way, isnt this cruel to bring him to life only for him to fade away?
Unless one knows what one is doing with thoughtforms it can be tricky. Unless you re-absorb the thoughtform back into yourself (made up of your own energy) it can wander around causing all sorts of trouble and end up becoming a parasite/vampire. If it has a certain amount of intelligence programmed into it it will know it needs energy to stay "alive". There is a good example of this kind of situation in Dion Fortunes "Psychic Self-Defense" where she re-absorbes a Wolf-type thoughtform she inadvertantly created.
quote:
Originally posted by wisp
Oazaki,
Your statements are in harmony with exactly why there was fall of man/woman. Your choices are based on your timing, not God's. You want what you want before God.Your's is the same story as the commoners (Adam & Eve, as it is written).
If the right choice had been taken from the beginning, the rest of the story would be different. So, as it goes, if you don't get the first truth, you will not understand any truth that follows. For instance, I don't think your correct in who Lucifer represents.
Waiting on God. Why is this such a blow to the ego?
The Tree of Knowledge exists NOW. The things which followed that are written in the Bible has to do with the choice man/woman made at that time, thus the story is written. You can't understand what followed if you don't understand waiting for God. One token of obedience broken by man/woman, effected the rest. Go back to the beginning, read it again. Otherwise, continue on your journey of your own personal power struggle. Your confusing "service to God" with "waiting on God" (a time factor). Your saying man/woman can precede the natural order,and I think your wrong.
Wisp, believe me, I know all about divine timing, probably more than anybody else. After all, what I have done (see my myriad other posts for details on this) was done through the use of the tools of divine timing and karma. More specifically, through the manipulation of the relevant karmic threads and the use of the relevant karmic gateways.
Also, I have personally met both Lucifer and the entity once known as YHWH, as well as the all the various true aspects of God (ie the lords of the planes of creation) and so I know that of which I speak. Have you? Or do you base your statements on the popularly socially held and propagated ideas and conceptions? Know that these were never designed to be truth, were always designed to control. Yet, as ever, believe what you will. It would be best though if you so believed on the basis of your own deep inveestigation as opposed to on the basis of what you have been told.
Yet this is not a point I'm willing to argue at this stage. Decide for yourself where you want to take it and decide for yourself what you balieve the truth to be and decide for yourself where you want to place your focus and to whom you wish to give your support.
Btter than giving support to one faction or another though I'd say is to look to yourself, direct your focus inwards and channel thy faith within thine own soul. But I repeat, the choice is yours. And, so too, are the consequences of that choice. So be sure to choose wisely and with awareness.
all the best,
Oazaki.
quote:
Originally posted by McArthur
Are you saying that you take the story of the Garden of Eden literally rather than as an allegory? What about other Eastern paths that have no mention of such things as "original sin" etc?
Ah, nice question. [:)] I am taking the story of the Garden of Eden metaphorically,
and I am also answering it / expounding upon it metaphorically. [;)]
quote:
Also i would be interested in what you have to say about Lucifer as this name is only mentioned once in the Christian bible (not the Original Hebrew version) and has proven to be a mistranslation for "Son of the Morning" and was referring to the King of Babylon.
Lucifer does exist, as did the entity formerly known as YHWH, and Lucifer was the good guy ie the one on humanity's side. I mean, c'mon, check out the old testament for just some of the stuff the entity formerly known as YHWH got up to. Hardly sounds like a benevolent god does it? Also, neither was the biblical YHWH a god nor is the biblical Lucifer and angel. what you have going on there is duplication of already-extant entities / names in the creation for "As above, so below" refers not only to this Earth relative to the heavens and the astral, but also the higher planes relative to the planes above them. The creation is a set of reflections within reflections within reflections.
The original YHWH btw, the YHWH of jewish mysticism, eg the deity referred to in the Zohar, is the same entity referred to in Sikhism as Kal. He is the Lord of the causal plane of the creation. and the original lucifer really is an archangel, the brightest, wisest, most beautiful ever created. And he really did begin a rebellion against Kal. Again, reflections within reflections within reflections. I have given more info on the lucifer rebellion, it's nature and purpose
and outcome on my thread "The Lucifer Experiment" located here:
http://www.occultforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=6207&highlight=
all the best man,
Oazaki.
quote:
Originally posted by Oazaki
Lucifer does exist,
Probably so as a thoughtform that has evolved quite a bit since the translation error in the King James version of the Hebrew bible. But try and ask any Jewish Rabbi if there is a being named "Lucifer" in the Tanakh and you'll more than likely get a "no". The original translation error for the term "Son of the morning" "how thou hast fallen" etc was referring to the King of Babylon. Read Isiah if you don't believe me.
The serpent in the garden is not named "Lucifer" neither is the "Devil". The name used is Satan, which means 'adversary'. As someone else in this thread pointed out the name "Lucifer" comes from a minor Roman deity associated with the planet Venus. SO Christianity probably used this name and demonized it as a way of destroying all competing beliefs to it. The same was done with the Celtic god Cernunnus with the stags horns on his head which is where we get the typical Christian image of a Devil with horns (or the Greek god of nature, Pan) etc.
If you wish to base your personaly philosphy around this "Lucifer" thoughtform that came from a translational error of the Hebrew bible by medieval Christians thats fine with me. I just thought i would point these things out. [;)]
http://www.deeptrancenow.com/paradigm.htm
quote:
Originally posted by McArthur
The serpent in the garden is not named "Lucifer" neither is the "Devil". The name used is Satan, which means 'adversary'. As someone else in this thread pointed out the name "Lucifer" comes from a minor Roman deity associated with the planet Venus. SO Christianity probably used this name and demonized it as a way of destroying all competing beliefs to it. The same was done with the Celtic god Cernunnus with the stags horns on his head which is where we get the typical Christian image of a Devil with horns (or the Greek god of nature, Pan) etc.
yeah, don't get hung up on names and recorded history dude. consider: there is a reason that history is recorded as it is, and that includes that which is recorded in religious or sacred texts.
quote:
If you wish to base your personaly philosphy around this "Lucifer" thoughtform that came from a translational error of the Hebrew bible by medieval Christians thats fine with me. I just thought i would point these things out. [;)]
i base my personal philosophy around no established belief system. i base it on my personal esoteric / mystical investigation. and where what i discern as truth coincides with what is written in already-established sources, i refer to those parts of the already-established systems to get my points across to others. and where what i have discovered contradicts established sources, i reject those established sources. for my stuff i have tried and tested and know that is true and does work. these certainties are, for me, greater than the certainties of what i see with my own eyes for the higher realms are a more "alive" realm and my truer domain.
oh and btw, the story of the fall from eden refers to the fall in consciousness (and hence dimensional levels) that occurred on this earth with the fall of atlantis. which leads one perhaps to consider: to what does the "tree of knowledge", metaphorically, refer, and how did "the serpent" tempt mankind with its fruit? any ideas? [;)]
hope this clears up some of the confusion.
all the best,
Oazaki.
quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf
btw Lucifer is actually a minor Roman god; he is actually a personification of Venus when she is visable in the Morning sky, ie the Morning Star. For this reason he is given his name Lucifer= 'light bearer'.
I don't like the perosnification idea/fact. If Lucifer would be only(!!!) a minor God, why would the God not just crush Lucifer. Or is that "God" so weak then that can't defeat a minor(!) Roman god? I don't see logic here, sorry...
You don't understand what I'm saying.
The Christian 'lucifer' and the old Roman god of the same name are in no way related. The Christians just used his name for their own 'devil' figure.
Thats it.
Douglas
OK, I understood wrong. But still, why did christians then take over the name? If I would have made a lord of evil, I would not have taken over the name of a minor god, because then the fighting idea between good vs evil seems idiotic. And by the way when they took the name, they HAD to choose it. Why did they took Lucifer? Why not..Peter(just a samnple)? If you give someone's name to some one it MUST have some sort of connection? I doubt that someone said:
"Hey, let's take Lucifer!"
" Why?"
"Because...it sounds cool?!?"
Hello,
I am new to this. I mean both the forum and this weird stuff. It is pretty hard to believe that stuffs like spirits and other things exist. But I fail to deny their existence too because honestly I don't know. I have a few questions. I hope some of the more knowledgeable guys can help me. what are "familiars" in general? And what exactly is goetia? Can I really call a spirit and talk to it? I mean how would one go about with that? Definitely it doesn't understand English does it?
Basically I would like to know whether I could summon them in physical form... like can I touch them with my hands...?
Is it possible. If so I would like to know the names of some friendly harmless spirits...
It means 'bearer of light' I beleive or something to that effect and its a roman translation of....I'm assuming hebrew, one language or another that was an early biblial language, they called him the light bearer and lucifer means this in the latin or roman language.
Satan is a hebrew word meaning adversary yes, but the hebrews came out of egypt and in egyptian Sata-n means serpent in egyptian.
Hello Everyone
There seems to be posts missing from this thread but I will comment on a few things anyway. Anyone who enjoyed this discussion should read about duality and non-duality. I really believe they exist at the same time.
Oazaki people do not subjugate themselves to God or any positive spirit. They praise him. All of the work being done is because we are on this earth and have to see what the difference is between good and evil. Anything we go through and learn will happen not to give us servitude to God but to teach us what we are about by our correct decisions. It also shows us what not to do by the incorrect decisions for us.
It is why Satan is called adversary some people are more suited to his path. It is the path of the individual. The ones who are out for themselves and believe their personal power is all important. The ones suited to God or the All are working to join a unity where they will be joined together with everyone else working for the betterment of the human existence.They are a conduit of God and do things for the greater good. It is the difference between white and black magic. Contrary to popular belief. One source for this information is A treatise on White Magic by Alice Bailey. She is long winded but a worth while read as she has many gems of knowledge in her book.
The goetia is a dangerous book especially for newcomers with out any control. Demons do what they want if they feel they can get away with it. The reason for this is their adversary position again.
They fulfill their purpose by giving us a chance to bring out the best in ourselves. To know the difference between what right and wrong choices in our Path and our lives. They were created by God for this purpose. They can not evolve or change.
I have noticed a lot of propaganda out there about evil lately. It is getting just as bad as people trying to convert others to good. All the comments about Lucifer, and spiritual satanism. Demons evolving and becoming good. I know some people may want to believe those things but I have experienced things first hand. I am not proselytizing or trying to change others. I do know what I will not do and that is the right decision for me. These are my personal views upon the subject but I do feel everyone should research these things and decide what they want to be instead of being guided into the wrong thing for them.
Nita
The goetia is dangerous if you are an idiot. Sadly, that is the case for most people here.
Look nita, if you have never had any experience with the goetia and goetic demons which is obvious, then you really can make no valid comments on it.
Just remember one thing: The demons are no longer bound or cursed. They are GODS. They have been freed from the wretched curses of the revolting parasite YAHWEH so mistreat them and you are inviting DISASTER and this is rightfully so because people who abuse spirits especially GODS deserve to be punished.
My recommendations to everyone is not to swallow the bovine excrement new age dogma or anything like that. Spiritual pipe dreams and pseudo-intellectualism are nothing compared to true experience. Don't listen to what anyone else says unless you are absolutely sure that is the truth, this is most easily determinable by your own experience.
QuoteIt is why Satan is called adversary some people are more suited to his path. It is the path of the individual. The ones who are out for themselves and believe their personal power is all important. The ones suited to God or the All are working to join a unity where they will be joined together with everyone else working for the betterment of the human existence.They are a conduit of God and do things for the greater good. It is the difference between white and black magic. Contrary to popular belief. One source for this information is A treatise on White Magic by Alice Bailey. She is long winded but a worth while read as she has many gems of knowledge in her book.
The goetia is a dangerous book especially for newcomers with out any control. Demons do what they want if they feel they can get away with it. The reason for this is their adversary position again.
Demons don't do what they want if they feel they can get away with it. Honour and ethics are very important to them. They are also very proud.
SATAN is a hebrew word which literally means Adversary. Satan is the adversary to the judea-christian 'god' yahweh/jehova and the angels. He is the adversary to enemy gods. The hebrews come from Egypt. In Egypt, SATA-N means 'snake' or 'serpent'. The snake or the serpent represented the egyptian God Ptah who was the sumerian God Enki. The garden of eden is taken from sumerian myth, its actually a literal place, in mesopatomia. It no longer exists anymore, as far as I know. In this place it is said in Sumerian myth Enki (represented by the serpent) advanced human beings, he gave them knowledge. His work was not finished.
Remember, Lucifer told Adam (Adappa) and Eve that if they ate from the fruit, they wouldn't die like yahweh said. They didn't die. Yahweh was a liar. For this, yahweh cast them away from the garden of eden. Never has there been a war fought in the name of Satan. Satan is meant to be a liar, betray and murderer. Yahweh fits the criteria for all three in his holy books. Satan doesn't.
Hello Arayan Knight
I was trained as a Solomonic Ceremonial Magician in a large group in LA. I spent 12 years dealing with goetic demons by cleaning up the students mistakes. Yes I was a high ranker also.
I have been dealing with demons, ghosts, and psychic vampires for 34 years now. I have seen physically manifested demons and some weird stuff no one ever believes. The reason why they do not want to believe it. I can truthfully say I have seen demons and what they do on a personal upfront basis.
I have an informed opinion due to personal experience. I doubt any of you have met, summoned or dealt with as many demons and negative entities as I have in removing them from others.
Nita
Hello Arayan Knight
Now for the second comments. The bible has been rewritten so many times that no one knows what God really told Adam and Eve. I am sure Lucifer was twisting things and lying because that is what he is the Father of lies and also Lord of Flies.
Demons have pride and ego. The problem is the pride and ego normally is about how much they can twist and say to make people believe them. I do feel that people should realize that demons can not give them anything that God and hard effort can not give them.
Nita
Hi there
Nita, if you are a christian (it would appear so) then how come you are involved with the occult?
Demons don't want you to come to them for everything, they would encourage hard work and effort. They don't want to have to run after just anyone's request especially if they don't know you.
Imagine if you were a being far more powerful then any human being and someone gives you a call. You've been cursed and they use this against you by using the names of the enemy gods who cursed you. They demand something from you and make a 'pact' with you. Would you react positivley? No. If you treat them like this, then you will get what you give in return, that is justice. You can't expect to treat anyone badly and have them just let you walk all over them.
The Goetic Demons are no longer under this curse. They now appear in their true form and are their true selves. If you summon them by drawing a protective pentagram on the floor and use magical weapons and enemy god names to insult and abuse them then there's nothing stopping them from breaking down the barrier and killing you. Now, from what I've heard of people treating them disrespectfully they don't kill just for this. This wouldn't neccesarily be the most honourable thing to do. They will do something about it though and it won't be nice. Of the cases I've heard of though, the disrespectful treatment was things like summoning them just for fun or a joke on halloween. This is only inviting disaster.
Since there is no curse on them they don't have to appear to anybody. They will come if they want to. In the aforementioned case the Demon probably came to deal with the individuals.
If you beleive that summoning demons is nothing more then calling up archetypes and thoughtforms, then there is a good chance you will get what you want. You won't call up Demons at all, but archetypes and thoughtforms (Demons are not this).
Demons don't want to be summoned by Right Hand Path magicians!
They are there to help people from the Left Hand Path if they want to.
Unless they are busy or for some reason cannot show, they will basically always respond to a Dedicated Satanist (A Satanist who has done a Dedication Ritual) if they are called upon. And a Dedicated Satanist DOES NOT use enemy god names, magical weapons, protective pentagrams and circles and they do not use pacts.
QuoteHello Arayan Knight
Now for the second comments. The bible has been rewritten so many times that no one knows what God really told Adam and Eve. I am sure Lucifer was twisting things and lying because that is what he is the Father of lies and also Lord of Flies.
Demons have pride and ego. The problem is the pride and ego normally is about how much they can twist and say to make people believe them. I do feel that people should realize that demons can not give them anything that God and hard effort can not give them.
Nita
If you want to then you can read the hebrew versions of the Torah.
Yahweh still told adam and eve that they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. It does not mention the serpent as Lucifer or Sammael as the hebrews called him, but neither does the christian bible. It calls him SATAN, that means adversary. In egyptian, SATA-N means serpent or snake. The serpent or snake is seen all over egypt and represents the God Ptah. The hebrews word for 'adversary' was the serpent or snake because this image of the serpent or snake which represented Ptah and Egypt was their great adversary. Ptah is the sumerian god ENKI. Hebrew mythology is taken or stolen if you may from sumerian myth except twisted around a little bit. The story of the deluge is taken from the epic of gilgamesh. And the story of adam and eve and the serpent is taken from a tale where ENKI represented by the serpent comes to adappa and eve in the garden of eden to advance his children. Another God does not want them to have knowledge or power, and he doesn't want them to become as Gods like ENKI does.
The serpent in the garden of eden in hebrew mythology speaks and acts like an intelligent being. It is obvious that this serpent is metaphorical, and this is also a tale of how the serpent lost its legs. The serpent represents many thing but does the kundalini energy (thats the tantric word for it) which rests at the base of the spine but ascends and the beholder acheives Godhead. If a serpent has legs it can easily climb up something. ENKI wanted humans to become as Gods, just like he and the others.
Nothing that the Demons or the Gods can give to people can jehova give to people.
All jehova does is order to stone to death anyone who exhibits any supernatural ability. He condemns the supernatural, the occult, sorcery and psychic phenomona and forbids his followers to have any of it.
Hello Arayan Knight
God is non-denominational and has many faces or names. What you say about demons is incorrect if you are using the Goetia. You say two things at once if you compare your prior messages.
What I believe in as a religion is not up for discussion. It was do I know about demons. I do and let us hear about your qualifications. How much experience do you have, how many have you dealt with, and what makes you feel you are an expert. It is not about philosophy I am talking real life experience.
Nita
Quote from: xneduhell... u do impress me with your speech oazaki... but i just cant even begin to think of god as someone who wants to keep us in bondage and deny us knowledge. true i am new to magick but i do know some thing ( however meagre it is ) regarding the good and bad. i think there is some truth in what nita says.
i just dont know how to put all i feel in to words.
but the basic point is to think of god as someone who doesnt wish us good is absurd.
okkk i have more queries...
has anyone out here has personally tried to evoke any spirits. can u tell me of ur experience?? I searched the net. There are a lot of material to help me invoke those goetic spirits but literally none to familiarize my self with the good spirits or elementals. How do I invoke them and how do I talk to them. I guess elementals are pretty good in nature so I thought maybe I will try to evoke them first...
Hey I read some of ur entries in other forums as well
Tell me guys will the spirits simply grant me wishes if I ask them to once after I evoked them?
And what about the great abyss??? And the worlds beneath and about it??? where do I find more material on that subject... I hope u giys can help me... I am totally lost.
And hey do u need any special gifts to perform all these magic acts in general??? Some of the books I have read is totally high level language and I don't seem to understand what the authors are trying to say...
Don't those entities have to fear karma too? Do the beings in the physical plane alone have to worry about their karma or consequences of the action. If they do something bad then don't they pay for it? tell me one more thing... if they chose to, can they pick out anyone from any world and hurt them... like can they reach someone here in the physical plane without prior contact or his or her knowledge...
Bye guys...
and also thanks for all the people who have taken time to reply my queries ( i mean it )
The subject of beliefs and religion is a very complex subject and one which is very personal to many. Often times, people will find themselves looking at more than one religion and questioning which is good. It's what I like to call evolution of consciousness.
The more I read and feel, the more I believe that there really isn't such a thing as "bad/evil" "good/bad" more or less in the same way that there isn't really such a thing as "male/female" in the higher-self's sense. Satan, I believe was invented in the same way a soul splits into male/female so to speak (If God was good, than evil must have existed). Does good really need to be good or evil. What does it really mean to be "good" or "bad"? Good/Bad is in the eye of the beholder. Arguably, everything that's bad is good if you take a look at the global picture and vice versa. Thus implying that no action is really bad or good.
:arrow:
Hello Some Bloke
I agree about studying Franz Bardons system. It has been what I have been doing ever since I left that group. My opinions upon the Goetia and the demons is this. It just shows you what you do not want to do.
I know after the first year I was clearing them out of students houses, and helping others. I would not do the conjurations because of a pact being an agreement with a negative force. I watched a lot of people who tried to achieve something using demons and the results were always flawed and twisted.
It is not about philosophy but what you want in your life. If you want even your best intentions to always end up manifesting in the worse way possible do a lot of conjurations to have demons help you.
The keys of Solomon are about a lot more things than the Goetia. You have to do the whole system to do it properly. It is not a system I would advise for anyone.
Franz Bardon's system is the best organized and helps you to bring yourself further along your Path. Your Path is what is right for you. It is not about some group, school or someone Else's philosophy. Groups are only good for socializing, learning what not to do by watching others, and getting ideas when you have problems. You may learn things from them but there is always the chance that is all about what not to do.
Alice Bailey and some others mention what Black magicians are about. They are people out for themselves, and think of themselves first. They are soulless in the way that they have no compassion or kindness towards others with out it benefiting them.
They are into illusion and delusion by the words they say and their actions are what shows others what they are about. It is also true about their magic. They want people who can be led and used by them so they do not have to take the results and responsibilities for their actions.
Everyone tries to make it out about forcing spirits but it is our right and wrong actions that say what we are about. It is also learning from our mistakes. Everyone who uses the goetia should first think what their inner nature is about and act accordingly.
Nita
:arrow:
QuoteHello Arayan Knight
God is non-denominational and has many faces or names. What you say about demons is incorrect if you are using the Goetia. You say two things at once if you compare your prior messages.
What I believe in as a religion is not up for discussion. It was do I know about demons. I do and let us hear about your qualifications. How much experience do you have, how many have you dealt with, and what makes you feel you are an expert. It is not about philosophy I am talking real life experience.
Nita
Hello Nita,
I have had intimate experiences with the Demon Ashtaroth/Astarte/Inanna/Ishtar. The Demon Guison I beleive is my guardian although I am not 100% sure. I have invoked Guison and he has spoken through me to do a reading for a member of the Astral Pulse (Sentential).
I have spoken to Barbatos and I have spoken to Amon. I have envoked Bes/The Bes/Legion.
I personally know many people with far more experience then me with the Demons and their Guardian Demons. I do know personally one or two people who would have summoned every Demon of the Goetia.
It is not a simple philosophy that they are no longer under a curse, it did literally happen and they were freed with energy workings. I know some of the people who freed them.
Hello Arayan knight 666
I am happy you have clarified this. I also read in another post that you were a satanist which means you and your friends do not mind having agreements with demons. I am not picking upon you but it is the path you and they chose.
It means that you prefer the energies of chaos. They may help but demons never do anything with out some benefit. A person doing the goetia is doing it under the assumption that a conjuration to get a benefit from a demon costs them nothing. It is untrue.
I know summoning them to remove them from others is different than conjurations. There is a lot of hair splitting on what is right or wrong so unless the person doing demons from the goetia is ready to accept the fact that he will have a pact of agreement with a demon he should not do it.
Angels have helped a lot of people I have known with none of the twists and turns demons do to others. I prefer them but I do not have to make agreements with them but to ask and they give freely. One is like dealing with the Mafia and the other is like being given a gift of love.
I prefer the gift of love. You can talk philosophy all you want but people should be given good advice. They need information not which one you or I prefer. I believe there are too many people here who miss that fact.
Nita
Quote from: NitaFranz Bardon's system is the best organized and helps you to bring yourself further along your Path. Your Path is what is right for you. It is not about some group, school or someone Else's philosophy. Groups are only good for socializing, learning what not to do by watching others, and getting ideas when you have problems. You may learn things from them but there is always the chance that is all about what not to do.
Alice Bailey and some others mention what Black magicians are about. They are people out for themselves, and think of themselves first. They are soulless in the way that they have no compassion or kindness towards others with out it benefiting them.
I am studying Franz Bardon now as well, and i agree with Nita (among others) that is the best organized and written of such occult material. I know little about the Goetia, but from what i understand, it is not a system i would endeavor to learn. Demons, despite the debatable nature of "good and evil" are not beings i want to associate with.
Alice Bailey, as i am learning, is rather complex, but rich in truth. I think it is valuable to learn about as much as we can, even the "bad" aspects of magic, if for no other reason than to know what NOT to do. Everyone's Path is truly their own.
Nita said:
"They may help but demons never do anything with out some benefit. A person doing the goetia is doing it under the assumption that a conjuration to get a benefit from a demon costs them nothing. It is untrue.
I know summoning them to remove them from others is different than conjurations. There is a lot of hair splitting on what is right or wrong so unless the person doing demons from the goetia is ready to accept the fact that he will have a pact of agreement with a demon he should not do it.
Angels have helped a lot of people I have known with none of the twists and turns demons do to others. I prefer them but I do not have to make agreements with them but to ask and they give freely. One is like dealing with the Mafia and the other is like being given a gift of love. "
The whole concept of "demons" or "angels" all comes down to ones perception. It is all in how you perceive yourself and what you are doing. Personally, I do not believe in "demons" or "angels" for they are all forces of energy, energy which is summoned and charged by the "magician".
No working done is ever without cost, be it calling "demons" or "angels", nothing is ever free everything has a cost. Some things may just be more costly than others. If a person is not ready to accept the fact that they are responsible for all they do, then they have no business summoning, calling, or performing any type of ritual. What is right or wrong is up to the individual and the individual should be prepared to deal with what they do.
Just what twists and turns do demons do? In my own experience those who get "twisted and turned" as you say, are those who are not responsible nor are they prepared for the work they are attempting to do; it matters not if they are trying to call a "demon" or an "angel".
As I said before, nothing is ever given freely, you just have to consider the cost.
As far as working with the Goetia, if you are not sure then don't. Do as much research as possible, think, consider and weigh all options before undertaking any type of working. Be informed, be prepared, be responsible.
Hello Sartori
The best example I can give is most people do not have control of themselves completely when doing ceremony's. Especially in the beginning of doing conjurations.
One of the first exorcisms I did was because of a woman in love with a singer in a rock band. She was head of his fan club and then she found out he was going to get married. She had been studying magic and instantly made up her own ritual per the demons instructions that she conjured. She did this so he would marry her and no one else would marry him. He committed suicide 4 weeks later. It was her responsibility and stipulations but that is one example.
Another one was a person who wanted success in business. He became really rich. He never stipulated how the demon could do it so the richer and more powerful he became the more possessed he became. The reason why the demon took advantage of the fact that it was the demons energies doing this and replaced them with his own.
I sometimes feel that the best person for doing a demon conjuration would be a very anal retentive lawyer who lists and classifies everything so no loop holes are left. No offense to any lawyers upon the forum!
Most people who do this are not ready to take the responsibility or work upon themselves. They are younger and feel they can do anything then find out how much it can hurt later.
It is why the IIH is important once you get the control and balance you normally find out what you want to do.
Nita
Quote from: NitaI sometimes feel that the best person for doing a demon conjuration would be a very anal retentive lawyer who lists and classifies everything so no loop holes are left.
That's pretty funny, Nita. Has anyone EVER conjured demons and had nothing but glowing success and karmic impunity? How'd Solomon pull it off?
Nita said:
" most people do not have control of themselves completely when doing ceremony's."
I completely agree with you. That, in my opinion, is the problem...to many would-be magicians who do not know themselves well enough to have control over themselves.
" Most people who do this are not ready to take the responsibility or work upon themselves. They are younger and feel they can do anything then find out how much it can hurt later. "
Again, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Those who are young and feel all powerful and confident and invincible are indeed foolish in such endeavors. Which is why I also added to research, be informed, be prepared, and be responsible, although I think too many people don't take that seriously.
Also, I like the remark about the lawyer, lol.
Hi Nita.
I've read in a number of places that one should not attempt Goetic evocations until they've established contact with their Holy Guardian Angel. Is this true? Also, other than things like knowledge or magical services, are there really any reasons for which anyone would need for summoning a demon? I'm wondering because I've also read that working with Goetic demons helps a magician bring under control those aspects of his mind that the demons relate too.
Hello Lord of the Bunnies
There are many ways to work upon your negative self without having an outside force being able to harm you while doing it. I have not found anything I could get with demons that I could also not do with other methods that were safer.
I would try Initiation into Hermetics and in part 1 you see a section called soul mirrors. To understand a lot of the principles behind magic I would read the Kybalion. To learn to control yourself I would read the buddhist ebook Cittanunpassana. I posted it upon this website in the past if you are interested and can not find it I will email it to you.
My email address is nita@astralpulse.com. You can then figure out for yourself if there is any reason to conjure a demon after you study.
Nita
There is no such thing as good or evil, pure good, or pure evil. It is a relative concept. There's is no good or evil; only sentiancy.
In other words, beings cannot be purely good or purely evil. They can only be Sentient. As for beings who aren't Sentient, well, I'm not sure what to make of that.
I am more comfortable with an entity who will openly say 'I do not love you becaue I do not know you'. A being who says 'I love you unconditionally' is obviously not a Sentient being. He may understand Sentient beings, which is why he says that in the first place (because with love we are most vulnerable, we make the most mistakes and the most energy is given with love and of course 'I love you unconditionally' is what we want to hear) but he is not a Sentient being himself and never has been, he can only asses Sentient beings and figure out how he can use them to his advantage.
People assume a spirit is evil just because it lashes out or gets angry when it is insulted or abused. What nonsense!
I trust a being who greets me like a human greets a new acquaintance when they do not know me yet, and gradually get to know me and to like me before they say that they love me. Love is a two way thing. Beings who are more like humans are obviously safer for humans to trust.
And beings who are not like humans at all; then it might be understood why they have persecuted and abused beings who are more like humans.
When using a Ouija board for example, there are some beings who are just calm and placid. The planchette moves slowly and calmly and there is no emotion or movement in it at all. This is cold. A warm being who is Sentient, then you can actually feel emotion and movement.
You ALL would happily abuse and insult a Goetic spirit, and for this it would get angry and lash out at you probably. That's why it must be evil, musn't it? :roll:
What about insulting and abusing angels? They're meant to be good and all loving so what would they do? well of course you've never tried because you'd never think of doing such a thing! :evil:
I have dealt with Angelic beings before when I was on the RHP. It was like
'Do you love me?'
'Yes' it responds calmly and unpassionatley.
'Really?'
'Yes'.
........
Now, when I dealt with them on the LHP path, that was a very different story. I had just dedicated one or two nights before and was attacked in a hotel room by some obviously very angry individuals because of what I had done. When the goetic spirits were being freed with energy workings by some high preists and preistesses, they were physically attacked by angels. Including the Angel micheal, who pushed someone down a flight of stairs. They made many attempts to get them to stop and to convert, bribes and the like, and even just down right pleading.
As for angels, what exactly is it they give you 'out of the goodness of their own heart' as you speak of? Would they win someone's freindship or love for you? would they give you the winning lottery numbers? I'm assuming they wouldn't do anything of that sort for you because 'it is not important in the long run' or 'those sorts of things do not matter and it would be blah blah blah'
Do you honestly think, in summong demons who have been bound by their own enemies, using the names and curses of their enemies, insulting and abusing them, chiding them with a magical weapon and treating them like time bombs, that they are going to give you something 'out of the goodness of their own heart'?
It seems like they're going to be extremely reluctant to do anything at all for you but in these days when they were bound and cursed I guess that they didn't have much of a choice but they would have demanded you do something for them in return, rightfully so, since wouldn't you?
Now days they are no longer under this curse but, think about it this way, if someone does you a really big favour for you just because you ask them do you think you owe them something? of course. Would it be uncourteous to not show them a token of you gratitude or to do someting for them as a thanks for their services? Yes!
My advice to anyone on the RHP; don't summon demons, period. Your very presence and notion of summoning them is an insult to them, thinking that they are 'lower astral entities' and treating them like poison, obsessing over having protection and take all these sorts of precautions and calling them up in the names of their enemy. You are only inviting disaster.
Hello Arayan Knight
You really do not know the methods I use to exoricise things. Demons are sentient but do not have our emotions any more than angels. You can be sentitent and not have certain emotions.
Now for your experience with angels everything is subjective. We could discuss the differences in our opinions for ages. I do know that the people I have helped have as many people who were LHP'ers as RHP'ers. Some never did any magic at all but moved where magic had been done improperly.
All of the ones who had tried to conjure demons were mentally unprepared to do so. They thought they were ready but they were not by the results that they achieved. It is not about what is LHP or RHP but about what the results were that happened.
I have had one instance in 34 years of a goetic demon not listening to me. Again this is exorcising them when they do not want to leave. They can not live here without someone to obsess or possess so they can clothe themselves in the energies of this dimension. It is why they do these things because they do not like where they exist. It is not about competence but the fact that the people who start out using this method have a chance to get in serious trouble using it. They should read about other methods and research them.
They should learn to control and understand themselves first and then think about any conjurations and rituals. Every system has its drawback but the Goetia has a lot of big drawbacks.
Nita
Do you think the Practices found in Summoning Spirits by Konstantinos is suitbale for summing spirits? I have the book. And im just wnodeirng.
Thankyou
QuoteHello Arayan Knight
You really do not know the methods I use to exoricise things. Demons are sentient but do not have our emotions any more than angels. You can be sentitent and not have certain emotions.
Now for your experience with angels everything is subjective. We could discuss the differences in our opinions for ages. I do know that the people I have helped have as many people who were LHP'ers as RHP'ers. Some never did any magic at all but moved where magic had been done improperly.
All of the ones who had tried to conjure demons were mentally unprepared to do so. They thought they were ready but they were not by the results that they achieved. It is not about what is LHP or RHP but about what the results were that happened.
I have had one instance in 34 years of a goetic demon not listening to me. Again this is exorcising them when they do not want to leave. They can not live here without someone to obsess or possess so they can clothe themselves in the energies of this dimension. It is why they do these things because they do not like where they exist. It is not about competence but the fact that the people who start out using this method have a chance to get in serious trouble using it. They should read about other methods and research them.
They should learn to control and understand themselves first and then think about any conjurations and rituals. Every system has its drawback but the Goetia has a lot of big drawbacks.
Nita
And where do they exist that they do not like?
Hello Amaroth
Konstantinos has an interesting book. I still feel that any body who does any evocations should work upon themselves first. I do like the wheel he uses to make sigels by the name. Remember the difference for the Hebrew spelling.
I also believe that he gives a good method using the mirror or crystal ball where you do not have to evoke them into this world. I do know that his methods are very reminiscent of the Initiation into Hermetics methods using magic mirrors.
Arayan Knight if you would like to PEM me you and I can discuss philosophy and what we know. Other than that I do believe it is boring to everyone else of any religion to get into discussing different things unless it is on the religion forum.
Nita
Some of the replies I have read come across as judeo-christian fantasy imo, Well, as I said in an earlier post, i dont believe all the soloman mumbo jumbo attatched to the goetia but if you feel that it adds to the mystery then fine, but I see no reason to suppose the goetic manuals are any earlier than the 15th century (with the Lessor key dating to the 17th!), no matter what the unknown author may claim.
I also believe that all the 72 'demons/angels' are in fact pagan gods, most of their names have been corrupted over time, ie 'Astaroth' = Ishtar.
Therefor I dont divide them up into 'good' or 'evil', and I dont view them as demons in the christian sense. The christian church from an early stage rebranded all the pagan gods as 'demons'.
So pretty much every 'demon' you have ever heard of is in fact a pagan god , once worshipped by people around the world or invarious region (including 'Lucifer', a minor roman deity of little account before his christian 'makeover'.).
The judeo-christian mumbo jumbo surounding the goetia means that you percieve all these deities through the judeo-christian lens which distorts them imo; again if it works for you then fine, but many other people like to strip away all the crud and get on with the mechanics of invoking the deities themselves.
I am still unsure as to whether the deities have any independent reality and are sentient in some way or if they are projections of your own subconcsious, although I lean towards the later interpretation.
It doesnt really matter at the end of the day since the resulting effect is the same as far as the magician is concerned.
Doug
Hi Nita, sorry it took me awhile to reply.
I've read through both IIH and the Kybalion, and started doing some of the exercises a bit. The thing is, at the moment I'm not entirely sure how to go about with my magic practice. At first I was just trying to astral project, then I started doing Golden Dawn rituals, then I got IIH, and then a book on Tattwa cards. I'm not certain how to organize everything. Although so far IIH seems like the best bet, for some reason I don't want to stop doing the GD rituals. I still want to astral project as well. Could some of the GD rituals act as a supplement to Franz Bardon's system, or are there elements of the two that would tend to interfere with each other? Should I just do everything together whenever I can find the time?
QuoteSome of the replies I have read come across as judeo-christian fantasy imo, Well, as I said in an earlier post, i dont believe all the soloman mumbo jumbo attatched to the goetia but if you feel that it adds to the mystery then fine, but I see no reason to suppose the goetic manuals are any earlier than the 15th century (with the Lessor key dating to the 17th!), no matter what the unknown author may claim.
I also believe that all the 72 'demons/angels' are in fact pagan gods, most of their names have been corrupted over time, ie 'Astaroth' = Ishtar.
Therefor I dont divide them up into 'good' or 'evil', and I dont view them as demons in the christian sense. The christian church from an early stage rebranded all the pagan gods as 'demons'.
So pretty much every 'demon' you have ever heard of is in fact a pagan god , once worshipped by people around the world or invarious region (including 'Lucifer', a minor roman deity of little account before his christian 'makeover'.).
The judeo-christian mumbo jumbo surounding the goetia means that you percieve all these deities through the judeo-christian lens which distorts them imo; again if it works for you then fine, but many other people like to strip away all the crud and get on with the mechanics of invoking the deities themselves.
I am still unsure as to whether the deities have any independent reality and are sentient in some way or if they are projections of your own subconcsious, although I lean towards the later interpretation.
It doesnt really matter at the end of the day since the resulting effect is the same as far as the magician is concerned.
Doug
I pretty much 100% agree with you. But the word 'lucifer' is latin I think for light bearer, bearer of light, morning star. It was attritubeted as a descriptive name to the hebrew angel Sammael who did lead a war and rebellion against god and was cast out of heaven. Sammael was described as the morning star or bearer of light in hebrew, or something to that effect, which is why he was given the name 'lucifer' in latin, and I don't think that it was taking the name of the minor roman God of light or a demonisation of him.
About solomon, I personally cannot say whether he definatley existed or definatley didn't, but the Gods were definatley bound under a curse of some sort but have now been freed by energy workings. That the judeao-christian fantasy of 'Demons' is merely a result of demonizing pagan gods is true, but I don't beleive this was simply limited to people, I do think that the angels and jehovah-whatever he may be, exist. And I think that the goetic Demons or Gods rather exist as well and angels/jehovah are their enemy. And, I also beleive that lucifer/satan exists as well, and I think that it is very likely he was a pagan God as well, ptah of egypt or enki of sumeria, and that he and the 'Demons' were the true and original Gods of humanity and the 'jehovah' and the angels are the enemy. And I do not think that jesus exists or existed.
Interesting reply AryanKnight.. i suppose its up to everyone to come up with their own interpretation at the end of the day.
I'm sure I remember reading that Aliester crowley believed the goetic deities to be projcetions of the unconscious mind (but still powerful and dangerous of course), but then again they may be real.
Good point about Lucifer... I guess there are two Lucifer's actually. There is the Roman deity Lucifer, the one I described, who was a very minor Roman deity of the Morning Star, hense his name 'Light bearer'; Venus in her morning aspect. He is mentioned in Ovid for example.
Then there is the middle-eastern being you speak of and as he had similar attributes to the Roman deity, it wasnt long before Latin speakers were using the name 'Lucifer' to describe this other being; over time the old roman deity was forgotten. I still feel sorry for the roman deity however, as really he had nothing to do with this other being.
Doug
Aliesiter Crowley can beleive what he wants to beleive. But so can everyone else, and he's not forcing his beleifs down other people's throats, and thus others shouldn't just swallow everything he says. People should decide what the goetic entites are based off their own experiences and the experiences of me and many others tell us they are independant, individual beings seperate from our own minds and extremely powerful, intelligent and ancient. If they are projections of our unconscious mind, then our unconscious minds must be very powerful since someone can burst into flames from a Demon being around if there is enough energy and they are not strong enough.
Quote from: aryanknight666Aliesiter Crowley can beleive what he wants to beleive. But so can everyone else, and he's not forcing his beleifs down other people's throats, and thus others shouldn't just swallow everything he says. People should decide what the goetic entites are based off their own experiences and the experiences of me and many others tell us they are independant, individual beings seperate from our own minds and extremely powerful, intelligent and ancient. If they are projections of our unconscious mind, then our unconscious minds must be very powerful since someone can burst into flames from a Demon being around if there is enough energy and they are not strong enough.
*nods* Yes based on my experience Goetic Entities are not your average "demons." (Originally they were not considered demons.) They are not necissarily evil with the exception of a couple of them.
Some demons, however, are indeed atmospheric presences with no definite body. I have seen this in the astral before when dealing and helping individuals. This usually means, I found, that they are either our own fears, the fears of collective humanity, or something greater still.
Hello Lord of the Bunnies
I would suggest still doing GD rituals if you feel they are working for you. You then do the exercises in IIH. I believe in diversity as it keeps you grounded when you find the things that work for you.
It means that you have fewer problems than anyone will that just follows only one method. The important thing to remember is that you can add extra but do not change the basic things you are supposed to do. It is where most beginners get in trouble.
Now on goetic demons a lot of them do have names that were the names of pagan Gods. Using the sigels in a book defines those demons energy signature. It means they appear in a specific fashion and quality. It means that no matter what other names they are known by if you use the sigel and name from a specific book they appear in the manner they appeared when the person had them put their sigel they would answer to down.
If you want them different then you should use the more positive name and symbols. It does not mean they are harmless. I read a statement once that I believe is very true. Once the Gods and angels notice you do not expect everything to be perfect. It is speeding up your lessons and things you do because they expect more of you. Demons do the same things when they notice you and none of their lessons are normally good.
Nita