O.T.O == Ordo Templis Orientis, the Order of the Eastern Temple. A Thelemic order of ceremonial magick.
It's a descendant of the Golden Dawn gang, IIRC. Someone correct me there.
The distinction Crowley made with the addition of k is because with the addition the gematria of the word makes sense. Or so I've gathered.
As for reading vs. learning by burnt fingers, I'd say read first, then think, go back to reading then think again. Give it fair go and after the smoke (literally in some cases) clears think about what you accomplished versus what you intended to accomplish. Go back to reading [8D] There is no sense in blundering in the dark if there are resources that'll shed any light on the subject.
Ceremonial Magick(CM), Chaos Magick(ChM) and Intuitive Magick(IM) would be my classification.
In CM the adept follows a carefully built structure of ritual and symbolism to place himself in control of the universe in order to effect a change in it. There are several subcategories of CM, Theurgia, Goetic and Enochian Magick to name a few.
In ChM the adept constructs sigils etc. that represent the goal of the working, commits them to memory and them after forgetting the conscious meaning attempts to project the goal to the universe via a state of gnosis achieved with some method or another. The process is repeated until the goal is realized. Fake it 'till you make it.
IM is somewhat descendant of CM but with less strict rituals and symbolism. The adept has the option of creating a suitable set of ritual and symbolism for himself. I''d put the various traditions of Wicca in this category based on Gardner's background and by the fact that while the traditions are often coven centered one can deviate from the norm, if you will, and adapt the rituals and symbolism to suit one's personal character.
Why to Ceremonial Magi look down on others? Well, in general they don't [8D] But as many CM practitioners feel an overload of pride in the fact that to do anything one sneeds to read ([:D]) and memorize a huge amount of detailed information some get a bit aloof and contract attitude. CM is an individualistic form of magick in the extreme withthe adept attempting to become the centre of the universe, in essence.
If you want to talk about magickal mechanics and the universe talk to a Ceremonial Mage, if you want to talk about altered states and what's in your soul look up a Chaos Mage.
But if you want to understand anything think for yourself [;)]
Someone will be around directly to point the many oversimplifications and outright mistakes in the above.
2cents & L&L
jouni
This topic is a biggie, a subject of some of the most hoity-toity "witch wars" in my realm. And I am guilty of some of the sniping and "Divisiveness of the Week" on Astralpulse. It's SO easy, once you've put your heart and soul, time and brain cells into a Craft, to look down upon newbies, the less informed or committed, the misinformed, and the just plain-different-than-you. I suppose this is true of any craft! There is an equal amount of snobbism and sniping and separation in the realms of classical music, opera, theatre and dance, visual art, cinematography . . . architecture . . . and so on and so on.
One needs a certain amount of Ego to suceed at the early stages of any craft, but once one succeeds, the Ego needs to be let go (that's the hard part). When it's not let go, the magical community becomes a political, backstabbing beast.
There. Got that off my chest. Anyway, Adrian's classifications of magic are interesting and informative; I'd never thought of it that way before! I look forward to discussion on the matter; I'm all ears . . . er, eyes.
Greetings everyone,
Magic seems to be interpreted from "everything in Magic", which in a sense is true, to the highest and truest definition of Magic, the name of which originated from the Magi, the highest Initiates, an which can only be performed by true Magicians who fully understand and are able to control and work completely within Universal laws.
Aside from that we have "High Magic" which is fundamentally Ceremonial Magic, Low Magic which is fundamentally witchcraft, natural Magic and so on. then we have the variations of these, herb Magic, crystal Magic, candle Magic and so on, And then of course there is "chaos" Magic which seeks to use universal laws in their absolute form without the structure of spells, rituals etc..
I believe it is true to say that most of what people call "Magic" is actually manifestation and sorcery, because the practioners use elements of Universal laws to achieve their objectives, without always fully understanding or being in full alignment with those Universal laws. A true Magician works in total harmony with Universal laws at all times, and never, ever does anything contrary to those immutable laws.
I believe it is also true to say that most of what people call Magic is grey Magic because they are used for their own purposes. That is not to say there is anything wrong with grey Magic providing it does not harm anything or anyone else. There is of course black Magic which again is usually not true Magic, but which will usually harm others resulting in Karmic consequences for the practitioner.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Greetings jilola,
quote:
Originally posted by jilola
O.T.O == Ordo Templis Orientis, the Order of the Eastern Temple. A Thelemic order of ceremonial magick.
It's a descendant of the Golden Dawn gang, IIRC. Someone correct me there.
I think you will find that OTO was Crowleys doing - he put it together after falling out with the GD.
Apparently, towards the end of Crowleys life, he sold the leadership of the OTO to Gerald Gardner of Wicca notoriety, for a few hundred pounds sterling. They had to make an official looking parchment type thing with a seal in order to make it look genuine.
I find it highly ironic that most of Wicca came from Crowley [:)] Gardner went to Crowley and borrowed alot of GD type rituals which were then modified to use the names of deities, and with the focus on the goddess. Gardner had Crowley write most of the rituals which of course he was very good at and Gardner wasn't. That is why rituals, spells and the like end with "so mote it be" which came from GD and OTO. It is also why Wicca spells Magic as "magick".
With best regards,
Adrian.
I aggree with Adrian, it is quite interesting that a lot of Wicca was derived from the Crowley/Gardner collaboration. But one more thing needs to be highlighted. Witchcraft in general is a whole different kettle of fish from Wicca. When people think of witchcraft these days, they more often than not, immediately think of Wicca. This is a bit misleading, as witchcraft was practised for centuries before hand, so obviously not all witchcraft is derived from 19th century hermetics.
Lysear.
sorry for the newbie question...
the "Universal Laws", how can you truly learn them ?
I agree with Lysear . . . Witchcraft, in the true-sense-of-the-Word, is a northern-euro folk-magic thing, and I've even read that it comes from Scotland and nowhere else.
For instance people think the Strega tradition is Italian Witchcraft, but it's not. Strega is Strega. And a Brujo is a Brujo, and a medicine man is a medicine man, and a voodoo queen is a voodoo queen. They all perform magic (as all magic is the same around the world), but they are different. They're not all witches.
At some point it all got mooshed together. Probably by Gardner and the resurgence of the modern western magical tradition. But you never know . . . perhaps a big part of it had to do with the Spanish Inquisition, and the Dark Ages, when magicworkers (including the Roma/Gypsy) were subject to the worst kinds of torture. I wouldn't be surprised if a whole bunch of different kinds of magicworkers ran off together into the hills, where a cross-pollinization of ideas began and brought us to where we are today. But that's just my theory, I have nothing to back it up.
I have a history of the Western magical tradition at home . . . the author was really into Bruno as I recall . . . I really ought to pick it up again and read it.
Greetings Tisha,
Yes, you are absolutely right. Witchcraft in one form or another has been around for thousands of years but called different things. The Shaman practice a kind of witchcraft as does voodoo and so on.
Here in the Isle of Man evidence of witchcraft goes back a very long time. Most old cottages have elder and other protective herbs and plants growing around them, and there are many legends and folklore about witches, not to mention the Fae folk which abound here [:)] Ironically, Gerald Gardner did most of his work and performed most of his initiations a few miles from here at his place called "Witches Mill" which was a witchcraft museum. It still exists but has been turned into appartments now. After he died his niece carried on the musem but she apparently had to flee the Island very quickly after the locals were convinced they had turned to black magic, and the authorities were threatening to take her child from her.
Modern Wicca is a construct based upon Gardner's mission to create a belief system which worshipped the "goddess" (Aradia in the case of his brand of Wicca),and his apparent infatuation with naturism [:)] Crowley wrote most of the rituals used in Wicca. I don't have a problem with Wicca by the way, but I do believe it has nothing much to do with age-old traditional witchcraft as Tisha has already said. Most witches around here were/are known as "hedge witches" because they use a circle of natural growing hedges as their boundary for protection. Witchcraft around here is heavily influenced by both the celts and vikings - there is alot of both celt and viking blood here. Their Magic is natural Magic, not making use of circles, swords, deith invocations and other things associated with Wicca.
With best regards,
Adrian.
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian
Greetings jilola,
quote:
Originally posted by jilola
O.T.O == Ordo Templis Orientis, the Order of the Eastern Temple. A Thelemic order of ceremonial magick.
It's a descendant of the Golden Dawn gang, IIRC. Someone correct me there.
I think you will find that OTO was Crowleys doing - he put it together after falling out with the GD.
Yep. That's what happened. Anyone recall why exactly he fell out with GD? It couldn't have been his ego, since he was such a modest a man [;)]
The innumerable feuds between different varieties of magik(sic) that just won't amaze me no end. They're all facets on the same only cats in different molds. And a cake is a cake even if it isn't round and cherry topped.
2cents & L&L
jouni
Greetings Jilola,
Yes I agree. It is unfortunate to note the one-upmanship that seems to have occured over the decades with one order claiming to be better than the next. Many members of these orders also seem to become deluded and obsessed with their own perceived powers.
The irony of it is most of these people seem to have lost sight of the true meaning of Magic and being a true Magician.
With best regards,
Adrian.
quote:
There is of course black Magic which again is usually not true Magic, but which will usually harm others resulting in Karmic consequences for the practitioner.
That seems like a value judgement more than a fact. If they are doing something which causes an effect on the universe etc ..etc.. isnt it magic? I thought magic wasn't really aligned with good or bad in and of itself. Its which you chose to follow.
Thanks for the great definitions jiloja.
I dont really understand the high magic, low magic etc. That seems sort of "political" to me. There seems to be a lot of "you're not a real magician" because of certain flaws. Definitions like that to me seem a little unrealistic (Adrian's) who in the real world is completely in tune with universal law? Those seem like only theories. I would guess far more people who practice magic and who do it well are more developed people maybe (spiritually) but for the most part not always in tune with and as perfect as your definitions make it seem they need to be.
I like to see how things are practiced more than theory of how they should be in an ideal world.
Does anyone here respect Crowley? The very fact he had such an effect on the world of magic suggests to me he was "advanced".
Adrian do you practice magic? Im curious because you have very strict ideals it seems on what it means to practice it. Is it really possible to be always "in total harmony with Universal laws at all times, and never, ever does anything contrary to those immutable laws."
In practice does that ever happen? I love hearing personal experiences. To me they are valuable.. and for a person who is just starting out.. much more valuable than idealistic theories.
Im sure there are a few people out there who practice and always do so in harmony with universal laws.. maybe.?
I would like to ask someone - are the OTO men - men in black?
secret order of the magicians and the warriors -
secret service guys today, protecting their secrets, for a more then
3000years?
originating from Egypt (the guys with the egyptian black helmets,
(like the silver one and the gold ones in egypt))
and what is the relation between them and the White brotherhood?
black brotherhood is allegedly the Chatolic Church.
thanks!
"sorry for the newbie question...
the "Universal Laws", how can you truly learn them ?"
Universal laws manifest in every physical doing, handicraft, martial arts, cooking -analogousley,
and there are no more then 12 grate laws.
but you could look for all 12 for more then 20years!
it depends how crafty and precise you are willing to do those things.
the law of analogy is: 'as above, so bellow'
it is the Egyptian law of art as well as religion and science and magic. it is the most Universal law of this known Universe.
it is also known as law of the (connected)Pyramids.
the pyramid is living presentation of that law in the matter.
it is the Egyptian law but it is also in Hermes trismegistos :'tabula smaragdina'.
Hi,
I'm not particularly interested in magic at this point in time, but I do love to understand how the universe works. I keep seeing "universal laws" mentioned, and one person asking where to find out more about them - but I never saw an answer. I would like to add my vote to the request for more information on universal laws. Can anybody please point me in the right direction?
--Soulfire
yes, yes, please tell us what the universal laws are. i've had some magick people telling me about how certain spells were "not inaccordance with the universal laws", but when i asked what they were, i got no answer, or the subject was changed. i'd really love to know. thanks! [:)]
they are so simple the child understands them.
and you cannot?
you want to get them with a shortcut?
with no handicraft, no cooking and no martial art ?
buy them in the store for 20$.
see what i mean? the usual evasion. sorry, guys i'm pretty stupid. a newborn babe. i can't figure out anything out for myself. so please tell this retarded person what they are. i'm not a magic practitioner, so i haven't really learned the laws, sorry. i just want to know, because one person will say that certain spells are fine with the "universal laws", while another will tell me that these very same spells are not in accordance to the universal laws. it seems everyone has their own opinion. this is very confusing, because i would think "immutable universal laws" would not be based on a person's opinions! i want to know what the true laws are!
me too!
Don't argue with an idiot- he'll drag you to his level and beat you with experience.
practise makes perfect!
Curiousgirl,
Mr. Thoth here has an offensive way of communicating, so just try to peek around the sneering, as he's got a big ego and English is not his first language. If you look close enough, sometimes he's actually saying something of value. Like now!
A wise man could spell it out for us. But we'd look at what he wrote and say . . . "um, that's it?" Universal truths have many layers to them, like an onion. On the surface, universal truth is simplistic. But if you dig beneath the layers, it gets . . . well . . . deep. And deeper, the more you peel at the onion.
You can say "show me the last layer of the onion, I don't have time to go through all the layers." And the wise man would give you the last peel, but it would look just like all the other peelings. BECAUSE, you – you – you – need to transform yourself before you can understand the deep meanings of the Universal/Cosmic Laws.
Take the old adage "As above, so below." The first law of hermetics, probably the most important. You might also hear about the Law of Correspondence, which is basically the same thing. I'll try to explain it without referring to a book: In the simplest sense, your life, and I mean your ordinary life, your work life, your relationships, your magic, your spirituality - - everything - - - corresponds with the rest. They are all a reflection of otherworldly processes.
You could spend a lifetime meditating on this one Law, discovering correspondences, and never run out of things to discover. But the deeper you go, the better your ability to transform your life to what you want it to be. And THEN you'll be on your way to some powerful magic.
If you want to get started, find a good book on Hermetics, and start reading. It will give you the first layer of the onion. But to go deeper, to really "get it," you have to work work work!
it is WHAT you ARE. not what you are saying.
-right Tish?
but....
Tish... you ARE the first layer of the onion!
(you got some peeling to do in the Onion world!)
how about some carrot peeling for a change?
for God'S sake, try some carrot!
..(not like that! you sick perverit!)
who wants to give me 20$ for all 12 laws!
((Moses got 10 for free! the story was just like this;
the God said to him, "hey Moses, do you want some law?"
"how much?" asked Moses.
"the law is free and for all." God replied.
"THEN GIVE 10!" grasped the Moses.))
I will send it to you, soon after you send me 20$
(on Iceland we take American dollars!)
so, via mail adress me :"Universal laws for 20$"
and then I will send you my bank account.
soon after, I will send you all 12 laws adressing
the Mail:"Moses has gotten what he wanted, he can now
raise the prices in the promised land!"
thanks!
so are the universal laws different according to each person? or are they supposed to be all the same? does it all really boil down to 12 laws for everyone? i'm just wondering why there seems to be such differences in opinion on these laws.... i get all these differing views about what's uh, harmonious with the laws. one spell will be fine with one person, but another one will say "no, no, no! that's bad!" will i end up making my own conclusions about what the laws are, or will i get my own results? i guess that's a lot of what i'm trying to find out.
try to investigate it perhaps in some sex-practise.
it is not so difficult when you start.
well, try something new for a God's sake!
"WE ARE THE MEN IN BLACK!"(OTO?)
http://www.crystalinks.com/bh.html
[8D]
Hello Everyone
Goingslow mentioned that he would like to hear about someones experiences. I can sympathize with this as when I started out I did not know the differences and none of the books explained them to me either.
I hopefully can list off enough things to make everyone think. I started out at 18 moving to LA. I had always been clairvoyant since I was a child. I just learned that to see those things got me baptized and yelled at by my parents so I just did not talk about what I saw.
I had a Rosicrucian for the top orders spot me while my Dad was ill in the hospital. He gave me a magazine that my Mother took away and both my parents yelled at him over it. I had been hypnotized for a class project on reincarnation and had told him about it and what I remembered. It was because he had told me stratight out that I was psychic and talked to me earlier. The couple who had hypnotized me worked for Duke University and were collecting data on pyschic talents. I was considered a highly function precognitive clairvoyant.
I left home because of my over controlling Mother. I moved to LA and had someone at work invite me to dinner. Her husband had spotted me as being clairvoyant. She was into Earth Magic, and he was into Ceremonial magic. I studied both of them and they both work really well but they use different methods to apply the forces.
I suggest to everyone that they round off their Ceremonial magic talents with some sort of nature or Earth magic. I then started doing exorcisms, and had to study all types of methods because of what people did to each other.
I have studied Crowley's works and I do not care for them. Enochian magic may sound good but you can not control the results. I have used it twice and it is like some massive non-human force decides for you what you want and it does not interpret the human mind correctly when it does so.
I am not studying Hermetic magic. Anyone interested in this and all the different groups and people that helped develop the Western Magical Tradition should type in Western Magical Tradition and see what comes up on Google. It will give you an excellent background for what you might be interested in studying.
I use intuitive magic alot and a lot of astral magic where I do ceremonies and bring the effects into this world. The Kybalion has the rules for how this is done and why it works.
I have spent most of my magical career removing things that have been harming others. I admit I have a more cynical view towards a lot of the New Age practices. I suggest to everyone to be very careful of their choices and what they say. I try not to make a lot of judgements unless I can see that people are getting hurt or being harmed. I hope that everyone else figures maybe that is the way for the people to learn even when they think it is the wrong choices.
My first group tried to trap me in a pact and place all of their bad karma upon me. It has not been easy for me to learn. They acted a lot like another group I talked out against recently. Be careful in what you study and do what you feel if correct for yourself.
Nita
Greetings Nita,
Thank you very much indeed for sharing your experiences with everyone.
For those who are asking about Universal laws, I suggest you download and read the Kybalion as Nita mentioned which is available for download from this forum.
In absolute terms the Universal laws consist of the following:
The principle of Mentalism
The principle of Correspondence
The principle of Vibration
The principle of Polarity
The principle of Rhythm
The principle of Cause and Effect
The principle of Gender
The most effective Magicians are able to work intuitively and naturally within this framework of Universal laws, and are in harmony with the Universe; they have realised Spirit, The All ("God") within and are able to function as creators in the microcosm. Of course, the highest Magicians also need to have elemental equilibrium and control over the Elements as well as having transcended the ego; the need to be "Godlike".
This is the reason why most witchcraft which seeks to use principles of High Magic is actually considered to be sorcery; it seeks to make use of Universal laws without understanding them or being in tune with them. Other types of witchcraft, low Magic seeks to make use of more natural aspects of the Universe, and sometimes seeks to influence other people through the realm group human concsiousness.
With best regards,
Adrian.
Hi Adrian
I had a typo there. I am now studying hermetic magic. I call it studying because I do not know of a single person that will be able to learn all of it.
Low magic and high magic will start in different places but they use the same prinicples. They both get results. It is just the energies that are used that are different.
Nita
and what about midnightmagic?
and the moviemagic?
and out of the blue magic?
and the gray area magic?
then the Chaya magic?
and what about sandwich magic?
and then the confusingmagic?[:o)]
when you will practise that?
divide et concera.[8D]
Certain posts have brought to my attention there are certain divisions in the magick world.
One I see is those who dont like crowley and even the use of the word "magick" vs magic. They also dont seem to think he has contributed anything to the world of magic. I havent read any of his stuff but all this controversy on him has made me curious.
I see the word OTO used and I was wondering what that is. Is it a brand of magic or an organization?
There is a lot of comments geared towards those who have learned all their techniques etc from books. I guess the other alternative would be through practice. But it seems unless you have a mentor its impossible to just practice and learn from your mistakes. It seems foolish and makes more sense to first read up on and and get a great deal of your info from books.
I just dont get where people are claiming to learn all this from. I think we all know the majorityof the information we all have was read. Even by that apropros person. Or whatever his name is (From Croatia).
Another division I see is Ceremonial magic vs (what)? What is the alternative to this and why is it looked down on? Is it the use of rituals and props? Im not even sure what ceremonial magic is compared to anything else.
Please help me understand some of this stuff. especially the different "types" of magic. And I can see the comment coming now ther are no types.. magic is everything. But I mean the types that are "practiced".
Thanks