Magic? Real or Not?

[Tisha]

Shadowwatcher, magic is absolutely, positively real.   However, it's not like TV or movies; rather, most magical results masquerade as ordinary events. You don't even notice the magic around you . . . until you start paying attention.

That's it in a nutshell.  All beings are magical; they manifest things/events/results in millions of ways.  However, the majority of people do it unconsciously.  The difference with witches/sorcerers/magicians/etc. is that they know what they're doing.  

Most people who claim to be witches/sorcerers/magicians really aren't.  More like, they have "witch moments" or "sorcery moments" or "magician moments" where it's all clear to them, they execute the spell, the magic is manifest, and POW! they SEE it.  It's really HARD to keep up this level of awareness/intent at all times.  Most students of the occult achieve it sporadically if at all.  Myself included.

AWARENESS.  FOCUS.  INTENT.  A lifetime of it. Simple in it's complexity, complex in its simplicity.  Sometimes the glory of it is clear, then it fades, then it comes back.  It's the ultimate challenge.  Take it on if you dare!


Have a lovely day!

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

Excellent response Tisha []

Magic, in it's highest and truest form, is aligning yourself, with, and learning how to naturally utilise universal laws, and is a sacred science.

Many, if not most people who purport to practice Magic are really sorcerors and the like. Magic in it's truest and highest form is not sorcery.

In much broader terms, human beings are all creators in the microcosm, and as Tisha says, the vast majority of people do not realise it. Everyone without exception creates their own reality! The problem is, because people do not realise this, they tend to create realities they are not satisfied with, and the more unhappy they are, the more unhappiness they will create for themselves. Of course it works the other way as well. As Quai Gon Ginn said in Star Wars I "your focus determines your reality" - so true!

Again as Tisha says, witches, sorcerors and the like, can, by means of spells, rituals etc., create the energies that will come into manifestation due to the laws of attraction and correspondence (as above, so below), and also by interaction with the group human mind. The highest Magic is living Magic continually by the fullest understanding of, and alignment with natural, immutable universal laws.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[rantboi]

Magic - creating changes by raising, focusing, directing, releasing, and sending of energy.

I believe that the most successful magic is done with a high level of emotion.

Now, if you want to know more, I suggest that you read True Magick by Amber K. It's a fair intro to magic, although the author is Wiccan so she throws her ethics all over the place. I also don't agree with her on some of her definitions in the glossary, but it's a good book anyway. And it's not too expensive either, mine was $4.95. (Although I got it for free from a friend!)

Yes, to me, magic is real.

-Ater

[Radha]

Shadow Watcher;  The arts of the Magi are real IF done correctly.  What we have today is a veritable tower of babble with the amounts of dis-information and deliberate hoaxing one sees in books and websites.
The best way to learn the real purpose and goal of the art is to seek a sane, "outer courtyard" school and follow their instructions.
All inner work, as taught by the esoteric schools, of both East and West, have one single goal.  What they teach is what was given to their founders as the most probable way that particular ethinc group can progress toward the goal.  The outer trappings, and procedures may appear different (and between East & West, they are)but the goal is singular.
Eastern brother hoods have the duty to serve Eastern races and Western brother hoods Western.  If you are, this lifetime, in a Western body, the Eastern work won't take you to the goal.  Vice versa if you are in an Eastern body this life.  The exception might be if you were western and lived in an eastern country at least 3 yrs, then the brother hoods might accept you if language would not be a barrier.
There are a few people in every generation appointed to write basic books for the public.  These are not tittalating, or exciting, or thrilling...so those kind of people won't read them.  Some of these authors are Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki, Paul Foster Case, Gareth Knight, Violet Firth (pen name Dion Fortune), and W.E. Butler.
Before any real school will admit you they will ask you What it is you desire.  Don't lie.  Tell them the truth.  They will help you the rest of the way.
If I can be of any service in helping you find a school, email me.
Radha

[n/a]

I AGREE WITH ALL OF YOU.
THAT IS YOUR PERCEPTION.
IT CAN´T BE WRONG.
IT IS WHERE YOU ARE.
I WOULD HAVE PUT IT ONLY IN THE MOST SIMPLER FORM.
BUT, I MUST ADD,
THAT EASTERN TRADITIONS HAVE THEY TRADITIONS, AND THEY
ARE THE TRUE TEACHERS OF THE WESTERNERS, SINCE THE DAY ONE.
THAT WAS THE HIERARCHY OF COMMAND INSIDE THE MASONIC LODGES IN EUROPE
SINCE EVER AND FOREVER.
EAST DROPS A DROP OF KNOWLEDGE TO THE MASONIC LODGES OF THE WEST,
THEY FILTER IT,
AND THEY DROP IT IN THE NATURAL SCIENCES OF THE WEST.
THE WEST HAS NO TRADITION.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEN "WEST" AND THE "EAST".
"EAST" HAS IT TRADITION,
"WEST" HAS ITS EGO.
WE WOULDNT BE IN THIS MASS-PRODUCTION excrement TODAY, IF WE HAVE
A TRADITION.
SIMPLY,
ALL TRADITIONS THAT HAVE PAST THE LIMES OF EUROPE, IS EASTERN!
SIMPLY,
THE SUN RISES AT THE EAST!
EVEN,
COLOMBO HAS "DISCOVERED" AMERICA USING A MAP HE HAVE PURCHASED FROM A CHINESE-SALESMAN IN THE MARKET.
HE WAS NOT GOING BLIND.
-NO WONDER!
CHINESE HAD THEIR REINESANCE IN THE 13TH CENTURY!

[n/a]

AND I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU ALL,
WHY ARE YOU ALL SO EAGER TO CONVIENCE EVERYONE TO BELIEVE
THAT MAGIC IS REAL?

[Tisha]

Hellooo Adophis.  You need to take off your caps lock, it makes people think you're shouting.  Thanks.

Anyway, you are correct that many Western occult practices (such as those found in ceremonial magic) actually have their root in eastern traditions.  But not ALL of them do.  "Magic" and  "ceremonial magic" and "the occult" are related, but they are NOT the same.

The East is an admirable region with admiral qualities, and it might even be the "real" cradle of society.  But I won't agree that it contains the roots of all magic - - because it's just not true. Magic is universal, folk magic in particular. The Eskimos do it, the Native Americans do it, the Norwegian Lapps do it, the Mayans did it, etc. etc. magic happens everywhere, not just masonic lodges.  It emerges naturally from the experience of being human.

And I don't think we're so "eager" to convince "everyone" that magic is real.  Someone asked the question.  So, we gave that person our answer, based upon our knowledge, experience, and opinions, that's all!

[Tayesin]

Hi All.
Tish and Adrian have said it all and so very well too.

I would just like to reiterate one point.  All forms of Magic are real if you believe it to be so.  You are creating your experience of reality and so if you choose to believe that Magic is real then that is what you will experience as reality.

"I'll see it when I believe it" []

Love always.

[Adrian]

Greetings Apophis,

First of all, as Tisha has already pointed out, please do not use all capitals in your posts. People consider it rude and will not read what you have to say.

Regaring the West, East situation. The majority of ancient knowledge originated in the west, and many cultures obtained their knowledge directly from Hermes Trismegistus and other great Masters back in the earliest days of ancient Egypt. Before that, the sacred knowledge was known to the ancient civilisations of Atlantic, Lemuria, Hyperborea and others, and we are going back tens of thousands of years now.

Yes, the East of course also has its own knowledge and traditions, such as Buddhism, Hinduism (Upanishads etc.), but I think you will find these are much more recent.

At the final analysis this isn't a contest of East versus West or anything else. There is only one truth and one reality, and even modern quantum science is reaching the same conclusions. It is for each and every person to find and follow their own path based upon their own travels. Some paths are shorter than others, but they all arrive at the same ultimate destination.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[n/a]

"The Eskimos do it, the Native Americans do it, the Norwegian Lapps do it, the Mayans.."
please Tish, if you know, could you tell me what does that people have incommon with the ancient aegyptians and former tibetan, and even Chinese and Japanese? but only if you know!
((if you don´t, you could read perhaps a one or two books from Theosophy, at least!))

I AGREE THAT MAGIC CHOOSES HER´S REALITY ACCORDING TO HER WILL.
AND THAT SHE IS ALIVE.
I also agree,
THAT THE TRUTH IS IN THE EYES OF THE SEEKER.
and also I must add
that the TOT, or the THOT,(not THOTH-that is double formulae of Tot-Hermes! -you must agree,) or the Tahuti has his wife.
do you understand Adrian?
or do I have to spell-it-to you?
So, the rewarding question is, who is TOT..((do you see the opposite of OTO? perhaps the answer is in the formulae OXO and XOX!
could you tell me,please, Adrian what does those magic formula means?))
So, the rewarding question for the grater truth is, who is TOT´s(the gratest magician in the West occult scene) wife?

[n/a]

I also agree that MAGIC is the TOOL(add also the civilization tul or thule)
for the psyhic aevolution.
those lizards in dinosaur age, performing an magical ritual, jumping from tree to tree to develop wings to fly and to become Pterodactile.
perhaps is the lizard-part or our brain(end of spine) that is responsible for our magic aevolution?
((and, perhaps our dog parts are responsible for our involution.))

[Tisha]

Sigh (claps hands)  Attention everyone!  Can everyone say  "Overblown Ego?"   All together now!  There, I knew you all could do it.

I could say, "That's the problem with ceremonial magicians," but that would be generalising too much, and I know there are ceremonial magicians on this Forum who don't have huge ego issues.  Besides, I'm a moderator and feel the need to stay polite, although I must admit, I am grinding my teeth.  So I'll leave it up to others to respond to this one.  

[n/a]

Trish, I know what you think about ego.
do you think you are objective enough to see it?
what is ego then?
what is ego Trish?
what is the ego in magic?
since you know nothing about oblique-eyed race.

[Tisha]

APOPHIS,

I thought my favorite poet (Andrei Codrescu) was Croatian, but I checked an he's actually from Romania.  So nevermind that; regardless I see some poetic ability in you, and you should work on your poetry for awhile and see where it leads.  It would be a much better use of your time than acting like the Know-It-All-Magician on Astralpulse, and I mean that in the kindest sense. I'd like to see what you write.

Anyway, your questions to me ought to be a separate topic for the  Forum.  "What is ego?" would make some good discussion, especially the role of ego in magic and spiritual development.  So throw it out there and see who responds!

As for the universal nature of magic, I'd much rather present the actual data and references to you, to put a lid on this debate once and for all, than try to concoct a long essay from my office at work.  So let me get through the next few weeks (my job is intense), and I'll post what I find.  

For now, suffice it to say that:

a) if your only exposure to magic has been what you have read about the Ordo Templi Orientis and its works, your understanding of the subject matter at hand is thorough (i.e., painstakingly detailed), but not comprehensive (covering all there is to know).  And,

b) if you are IN the Order, your "high priest" (or whatever you call him) has done you a disservice by failing to teach (or perhaps even demonstrate) basic manners when it comes to discussing the esoteric online or anyplace else.  You don't know the background or relative skill/knowledge/experience of the people you are corresponding with, yet you run on like a 28 (had to fix a typo, sorry) year old magical prodigy.  You run the risk of showing your a** - - I mean, exposing your buttocks, excuse me - - - when you make foolish presumptions about what and whom you are dealing with.  I'd advise caution and a little more respect.  Then,

c) Finally, you need to work on your sense of humor.  Lighten up!

[n/a]

WHO SAYS I AM 23 YEARS OLD?
WHO SAYS WHERE AM I FROM?
AND WHO SAYS I AM A MAGICIAN?
AND I AM NOT A MEMBER OF OTO.
AND I AM NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE FORUM.
I WOULD ADVICE YOU TO TALK TO ME IN PRIVATE.
RESPECT I LEFT FOR THE DOGS.
I DO NOT NEED ONE.
DO YOU NEED A RESPECT?
I KNOW WITH WHO AM I DEALING WITH,
WHEN I DEAL WITH.
AND YOU ARE NOT A MAGICIAN, TISH,
YOU ARE AN IGNORANT FOOL.
I AM TRYING TO POINT THAT OUT.
GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR AMATERISM, AND YOUR DAY-DREAMING, TISH!
I HOPE IN THE FUTURE YOU WILL NOT END UP IN THE FACILITY,
MEDICATED FOR TALKING TO YOUR HIGHER-SELF.
-LIGHTEN UP!

[Tisha]

Wow, and I thought "I" had PMS (well, actually, I do, but nevermind).  

Apophis, your arrogance has set me off, and it appears, after re-reading my own material, I struck back at you with my OWN arrogance and presumptions about who you are and what you are about.  And for that, I am offering a public apology, and gratitude toward you for holding that big cosmic mirror up to my face, so that I may see what I've become.

So you are not in the OTO, and you SAY you are not a magician (?).  Okay, very well then.  I am curious then, from whence come your ideas?  My own background is German and Scottish family traditional (folk magic) by birth, but with a lot of real-life experience in the Native American tradition (Dakota/Sioux). Throw in a Wiccan/Mage hybrid initiation some 20+ years ago, and a Dianic hiccup that lasted 5 years.  My point in telling you all this here is that there are MANY traditions, but underneath, the magic is the same.  There is no use in getting tied up in semantics . . . the origial question was, "Is magic real?"  And the answer is . . . certainly it is.

[James S]

Hello apophis.

For a few reasons, among which it seems that you do not pay attention simple requests, this topic will now be locked!

You have been told by the forum's administrator Adrian, as well as two moderators, Tisha and myself to stop typing your posts with the caps lock key on.

As to the last questions you rudely shouted at us, You have told us in your profile that you are 23. You have also told us where you are from, a fact that was confirmed when I checked the geographical location belonging to your IP address range.

Any adept practitioner of magic on this forum will confirm that you would have little in the way of skills in magic as you have not yet mastered your ego or your emotions, which is fundamental to the art.

You have no idea of who you are really talking to on this forum, as indeed very few of us do, except perhaps those of us who have been around long enough to get to know people such as Tisha, and what she is capable of.

You are not adding anything at all to the quality of information on this forum through your harsh and arrogant words. Please consider changing your approach, and how you present your words if you wish to continue as a member here.

Shadowatcher,
I sincerely apologise for locking down this topic that you started. Your question was genuine and well stated, and I hope that you got some useful information to help guide you.

Regards,
James.

[Tisha]

Okidoke, I think we can unlock this topic now!

[James S]

Thanks Tisha. Had the same thing in mind...you're a step ahead of me.[]

James.

[Tayesin]

quote:Originally posted by Tisha

Okidoke, I think we can unlock this topic now!

Hi All.
That's excellent news Tisha, yippee!!

My experience of reality (obviously the one I am creating subconsciously)is that magic is very, very real.  And it seems that there are many variations or permutations on magic, so I call the ability to alter, move or effect physical reality around us Real Magic.  As opposed to magician's trickery.  But this also includes the wonderous little miracles that we experience in life too.  Ritual magic that also has effects in the world is something that I call High Magic, because my mind needed to give it a handle too.  LOL.

Love always.[]

[shadowatcher]

I think magic is real, but not in the way most people do. The reasoning I took to get there is kind of odd, but here goes; If youve read "the Nature of the Astral Plane" then you understand how I feel about Science. Science can explain everything. What we take to be mystical or magical events are simply scientific phenomana. Take thunder for example. Long thought to be the gods, throwing thunderbolts down to earth, science can explain it. Science therefore, is truly a religion. Believing in science allows me to believe in magic because people can create amazing scientific phenomanon (spells) with their minds. Someday, science will explain this. Untill then, Im more than happy to accept "magic".

[Adrian]

Greetings shadowatcher,

As a matter of fact even traditional science is having to radically alter its perspective as the quantum sciences prove a whole new, and in fact much more real view of the Universe. The several hundred old Newtonian based sciences which are focussed entirely in the physical three dimensional world cannot explain the higher realities, including everything under the generic description of "Magic".

The quantum sciences on the other hand postulate the model of the holographic universe where everything is an integral aspect of everything else which of course is correct - we are all integral aspects of The All.  It is this goes towards explaining Magic, togther with other Universal laws including correspondence, vibration etc..

With best regards,

Adrian.

[shadowatcher]

The largest problem of science is that its built on shaky foundations. Like many religions, its having to adjust to the times, and coming out the worse for it.

[shadowatcher]

On the one hand... its magic, and Ive always been the practical sort.

On the other hand, Ive never believed in OBE's either...till I had one.

Is there any truth in magic? it sounds Intriuging, but I am understandably doughtful...

Respectfully yours... Shadowatcher

[torocojonudo]

<font face="Arial"></font id="Arial">
I AGREE WITH ALL OF YOU.
THAT IS YOUR PERCEPTION.
IT CAN´T BE WRONG.
IT IS WHERE YOU ARE.
I WOULD HAVE PUT IT ONLY IN THE MOST SIMPLER FORM.
BUT, I MUST ADD,
THAT EASTERN TRADITIONS HAVE THEY TRADITIONS, AND THEY
ARE THE TRUE TEACHERS OF THE WESTERNERS, SINCE THE DAY ONE.
THAT WAS THE HIERARCHY OF COMMAND INSIDE THE MASONIC LODGES IN EUROPE
SINCE EVER AND FOREVER.
EAST DROPS A DROP OF KNOWLEDGE TO THE MASONIC LODGES OF THE WEST,
THEY FILTER IT,
AND THEY DROP IT IN THE NATURAL SCIENCES OF THE WEST.
THE WEST HAS NO TRADITION.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEN "WEST" AND THE "EAST".
"EAST" HAS IT TRADITION,
"WEST" HAS ITS EGO.
WE WOULDNT BE IN THIS MASS-PRODUCTION excrement TODAY, IF WE HAVE
A TRADITION.
SIMPLY,
ALL TRADITIONS THAT HAVE PAST THE LIMES OF EUROPE, IS EASTERN!
SIMPLY,
THE SUN RISES AT THE EAST!
EVEN,
COLOMBO HAS "DISCOVERED" AMERICA USING A MAP HE HAVE PURCHASED FROM A CHINESE-SALESMAN IN THE MARKET.
HE WAS NOT GOING BLIND.
-NO WONDER!
CHINESE HAD THEIR REINESANCE IN THE 13TH CENTURY!

 The real name is Cristobal Colon, Don Cristobal Colon, his real name was in spanish.