question for experienced practitioners

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by goku22
[br So I have 2 questions. One, if I were to get these books and really apply myself in terms of effort and time would I really find experiences that I could see with my regular eyes, in this 3rd dimension? Two, this is related, but I feel that to really commit to magic I'd like some real experience that I can't just deny as imagination IN THE BEGINNING, so does anybody know a harmless spell that a novice to magic could do?

1. Yes but only after many many years of intense study and practice.
2. Trully powerful Magic is indistinguishable from natural occurences or coincedence.

All spells entail some amount of risk. You must ask yourself how much you are willing to risk. oh and who says magic can't entail imagination?[}:)][]

something that may help you is to decide your goal, meld it with will and emotion. Then let it fade into the background of your psyche and then go do something else.

Xander

[goku22]

Thanks for the reply. Darn, so I can't just go buy a few herbs, draw a circle on the ground and make something glow? Oh well, I guess by the time I can do that, I will not really care to unless I really need to for a reason. I guess with that spell I would risk having someone see me, think I'm a demon and kill me, so even though that's far-fetched, it does have risk. Ben

[SolsticeOfAdonis]

Goku22, if you are not willing to do the work or expect immediate results then I suggest you look elsewhere for spiritual insight. When practicing magick you have to keep in mind that you get back what you put into it. and no offense but Real Magick is nothing like "Charmed" or "Buffy the vampire slayer". Good luck on your journy for a greater spiritual path.

Brightest Blessings,
     SolsticeOfAdonis

[quetzalcoatl]

---Two, this is related, but I feel that to really commit to magic I'd like some real experience that I can't just deny as imagination IN THE BEGINNING, so does anybody know a harmless spell that a novice to magic could do?---

Imagination, image and magic share the same root.  To practice magic the most important tool is your imagination.  

[Adept_of_Light]

Dear goku22,

quote:
One, if I were to get these books and really apply myself in terms of effort and time would I really find experiences that I could see with my regular eyes, in this 3rd dimension?

Yes.

quote:
Two, this is related, but I feel that to really commit to magic I'd like some real experience that I can't just deny as imagination IN THE BEGINNING, so does anybody know a harmless spell that a novice to magic could do?

Those who try to fly before they can crawl fail (and usually hurt themselves in the process). You need to first develop your mental muscles before you can manifest anything tangible and undeniable in the physical plane via magical means. If you think you can execute a spell and have it produce an undeniable physical result in front of your eyes without first doing the necessary mental work, you will be quickly disappointed. The only exception to this is if you already did a significant amount of work in past lives and have some natural born ability, but those who do are quite rare indeed.

The good news about Bardon's IIH is that it takes you from zero to Magus with step by step instructions. There is great satisfaction in performing the work in that book because every single exercise is accomplishable and tangible results are "visible" after each exercise has been mastered - thus leaving you with undeniable proof and motivating you to take on the next exercise. The bad news is those instant materializations you are wanting to see don't take place for most people until your are well into the path. But then again, magic isn't just about manifesting things in the physical. In fact that is considered to be the lower aspect of such a magical path, there are far greater and more important things beyond that which are the work of advanced magicians engaged in "Theurgy" or "High Magic".

Having said that though, there is a significant amount of usefulness in the abilities acquired along such a path, but they can also be your greatest distraction to the real goal. The reason they are included and deemed necessary to be mastered however is because they allow you to be certain that you are ready to take on the next step. They provide you with a sort of self-assigned passing grade if you will. You will be both the student as well as the teacher who gives the marks. You will be your ultimate judge to know if you are ready for the next step or not.

I recommend you start at the beginning. If you apply yourself with enough discipline to do the work, you WILL see results. Slowly, you will discover each exercise is accomplishable, and without even getting too far into the path you will have enough confidence and gain enough faith to know that the ability to do what seem like amazing things now are totally accomplishable when you are ready.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand your concern about wanting proof. It is a very sane and healthy approach to something such as magic. In life, as well as with magic, the safest approach is to always question the WHY and HOW of things. If we do not, and we take the leap with only blind faith, we risk falling into the abyss.

Most people when first approaching magic fear they will waste years of their lives getting into something that is only imaginary and delusional, but my retort to that is that a path such as Bardon's is safe for beginners and doing exercises in step 1 such as meditation and learning about who you are as a person at some significantly deep levels, is work that anybody can benefit from and is anything but a waste of one's time.

Take good care,
Adept of Light

[Adept_of_Light]

Hello again,

quote:"...I'd like some real experience that I can't just deny as imagination IN THE BEGINNING"

Imagination, image and magic share the same root.  To practice magic the most important tool is your imagination.  

I think this point needs further clarification. When you first read the first steps of Bardon's book, you will find a lot of the exercises to require you to use your imagination. And we're not talking about just your typical visualizations. Your imagination is trained to such a degree to include every single one of your senses, and to the point that you can imagine something so strongly and so real that it will be as real to you as reality itself.

With this in mind, a very logical question may arise:

If I train my imagination to such a high degree, how will I know if the results promised later on are not just imaginary? In other words, how will I know I won't train myself to such a point that I'll become delusional and not be able to distinguish imagination from real physical results?

The answer is the use of imagination in the first steps of learning magic serves the purpose of learning to control your mind, not making it delusional.

For example, one beginner type exercise may ask you to visualize with your eyes open an apple in mid air with your mind's eye for 5 minutes without any other thought entering your mind, without the apple changing shape, colour or fading away even once.

The reality is that this is quite a difficult exercise for most people when they first start, but becomes an achievable goal with enough practice. One of the outcomes of doing such an exercise is that you will have learned to control your mind to such a significant degree that there is no way you will confuse imagination with reality. This is because you WILL have a much higher degree of control over what your mind is doing, and you will without a doubt never confuse imagination with reality. You will be choosing when you want to imagine and when you want to perceive reality, and therein lies the answer.

So yes, imagination is a tool in magic, but only to train your mind and make it more controlled. The results you achieve should *always* be real and never just imagined or coincidental.

Cheers,
Adept of Light

[quetzalcoatl]

I just thought the original poster's comment was a little ironic.  

But I think "imaginary" things have their own reality.  For instance, someone may have a fear of heights which is based on the imagining of falling.  The fear has a real psychological significance and could be given sensible form in the dream state.  

I would describe what you are talking about as imaginary as bad or delusional logic.  Connecting things causally that have no such relationship.

[AzireDragonSpirit]

Hello,I just wanted to say one thing to goku.
you remind me of what I acted like in the beggining of my spiritual path but once you follow for so long you will then begin to believe and have trained yourself to such high extents it is scary somewhat.I am a high priest of my coven and a priest of my coven had asked me about calling forth lightning one night.You may not believe me and if you dont that is fine but I showed him that it can be done and how to do it.We sat down thinking of a spell grabbed some materials and our athames and we called forth lightning over the city we live in.to tell you the truth It was quite remarkable and we were both quite suprised.So if this doesnt help and somewhat give you hope on your quest then good luck on finding something else although this was the reason why I now believe so much into my practices.[]

[Nick]

Greetings,

Having just discovered this thread, I want express appreciation for what Adept_of_Light had to say. Magical study may not be for everyone, yet we each rise onward and upward via different paths. However, I do appreciate the clarity with which Adept describes such things as requirements and expectations, for those considering the study of Franz Bardon, and magic. []


Very best,
Nick

[BirdManKalki]

quote:1. Yes but only after many many years of intense study and practice.
2. Trully powerful Magic is indistinguishable from natural occurences or coincedence.

During the last 2 years i have been on a quest for the truth. I have a philosophy that has convinced me to a state of knowing, not believing.

The other week i tested the philosophy. I was round my friends and he had his old downstairs table in his room for his pc. his pc is a nice looking blue one with neons. I thought to myself how much better it would look if he had a table to match. I imagined what the table would look like and i spread my hands out the lenghth and size of the table. I knew what it would look like if saw it. I whent home and for the rest of the week i thought of a 2nd hand shop. although i didn't know why. the next time i whent round my friends he had the table i imagined, his mum brought it from a 2nd hand shop. Some might call this coincidence. I havent studied Franz barbon but i might consider it.

Birdman

[Rastus]

Sounds normal to me.  Witches may call that a seeking spell.  A Metaphysicist may say your Astral guide did some leg work, and then with your help and energy telepathically implanted the hunch to stop at that store.

I acquired my first book on occult studies that same way...

[Suigin]

quote:Originally posted by goku22

Darn, so I can't just go buy a few herbs, draw a circle on the ground and make something glow?

Very important: There is absolutely nothing magickal about any herbs, circles, words, tools, or anything by themselves. The entire magickal process goes on in your mind, and any objects are just props to get you in the mood, convenient (and imperfect) symbols for the things in your mind which you find easier to manipulate with your hands. A robot can not cast any magick at all, regardless of how carefully it follows some formula. When you have integrated the metaphysics behind magick into your mind to a sufficient degree, tools will be useless. Magick is psionics.

That said, they are nice conveniences for the starting occultist.


Think about magick in relation to any other skill. I, being an artist (almost), use the example of drawing. When you first try to draw, what you make will be obscenely crappy. After a year, it will still be obscenely crappy. It takes a long time to learn a skill, and magick is an area where you will be very hard pressed to find any good instructions on how to perform (there's about as much trash in the New Age section of a bookstore as there is in the newspaper).


If you're in a rush to get some kind of 'proof,' keep up with your astral projection. It's not the kind of thing you can easily use to prove to other people, but it's great proof for oneself.

[Rastus]

Young witches often have a great number of rings, pendants, amulets and talismans.  As they mature and get more experience the do away with the props as unnesecary.

Another analogy.  Someone with very little practice can take a rifle with a scope and hit a standard target at 100 meters from a benchrest.  A practiced rifleman can do it without a scope, and maybe while standing up.  A master can do it standing up in a storm while being shot at in poor light.  Can the master still use a scope?  Yes!  Do they need to?  No.  Why would they?  Well maybe they want to try a shot at 600m (something the other 2 examples could never do).

[goku22]

Hey, I've decided it's time to get into magic as a real part of my life. I plan to get Kraig's, Bardon's, and Lomer's books and practice what's in them and elevate my inner self through practice, just like NEW, but deeper and more comprehensive. My main reason to get into it is for spiritual evolution but I do admit some of the skills gained would be really useful. And I think a part of me still needs proof of the reality of magic in this world. I use the energy in my body with NEW and I've seen through my eyelids and almost projected, along with some other weird experiences, but for some reason I've seperated the reality of those things from the reality of magic, though I bet they're one in the same. So I have 2 questions. One, if I were to get these books and really apply myself in terms of effort and time would I really find experiences that I could see with my regular eyes, in this 3rd dimension? Two, this is related, but I feel that to really commit to magic I'd like some real experience that I can't just deny as imagination IN THE BEGINNING, so does anybody know a harmless spell that a novice to magic could do? Something like creating light at night, which would be useful, but basically is just fluff, meaning it probably just gets one off the path of true spiritual evolution, but isn't really a big deal either way. But it would sweep away all remains of doubt in my mind, and that would be invaluable. Thanks.  Ben