Experienced LDer interested in OBE's

[sambamboo]

[Decided it may be better to throw this in here]

[Its late so I may seem a bit... tired]

Hello everyone, I have been having lucid dreams since I was a child. Almost a year ago after an amazing lucid dream I decided to pursue it further, well I did and I now have lucid dreams at least twice a week. My niche is to wake up in slight SP, play around with the extremely overwhelming feelings that come along, and slip into a dream state and wait for the dream to materialize or built it myself, then I'm off. I also use the power of suggestion which helps a lot.

Between Awake - SP and LD I can usually clearly see the room I am actually in, although I do believe its just an allusion. I am quite certain of it. *Although I haven't tried to walk around, as I know my dream environment is much more interesting.

So... I am now on the quest to see if there is actually a difference between OBE and Lucid Dreaming. I from experience can certainly see how most people can misinterpret a LD with an OBE, mainly because I catch my self in false awakenings ALL of the time, and the differences are almost unnoticeable. This is very normal actually, and I am quite sure everyone has a false awakening at least 5 times a week, possibly 5 times a night. They seem so real that you don't even realize it. I also experience ultra clear vision in LDs, much clearer than in real life, and the colors are 10 times mores brilliant, just absolutely stunning visuals... but its just a dream.

I do believe OBEs are real, and I also believe that things aren't BLACK | WHITE, so I can imagine LD's being a sort of mix between "brain" / actual environment / astral plain, but mainly brain. But this goes for AP and OBE and LD, mixing.

SO... Can someone who Undoubtedly "you know who you are, and you that are not" has LDs AND OBEs, who is experienced explain the difference to me? I'd rather hear from the person that can truly answer this question. I will trust you.


Is it honestly different, how?

What is your belief on where OBEs APs and LDs stand in reality?

How do you personally initiate OBEs?

What is the best way "overall" to initiate OBE during slight SP / full SP?

What is a test to see if it was actually an OBE, have you tested this, results?

Have you entered OBE from a LD?
"During an LD I decided to fly straight up as fast as I can and with as much energy as I could harness, soon after the dream turned totally black and I started hearing springy/zappy/metallic electric noises which caused me to wake up, I heard the noises for 300 milliseconds after my eyes opened" Maybe???

Lastly - personal and basic ideas as to how to initiate an OBE, I will probably catch on quickly.

Thank you in advance guys, I appreciate it.

[Bedeekin]

Wow... this question is up there with 'are there demons' 'will I be able to get back to my body' or 'is there a silver chord'.

If your LDs are described by you as 'Just a Dream' then already it's plain that YOUR LDs aren't like MY LDs.. so my answer to your questions won't tally with your beliefs and definitely won't help in any way. However... I have 5 minutes to kill and it's a fun debate.

"Is it honestly different, how?"

No... Based upon thousands of OOBEs and a many LDs I have found that they are all the same... just with differing levels of purity of focus. When a Lucid Dream is carried on without it forming back into a dream-like narrative and a clear intent is employed... it becomes indistinguishable to an OOBE.

LD is entered through a dream so therefore is prone to being still dreamlike; there will still be a subconscious narrative and more than likely you will become wrapped up in the narrative again.

OOBE is entered from an awake state and isn't coloured/tainted by a subconscious narrative... but you still can become wrapped up in a narrative.

"What is your belief on where OBEs APs and LDs stand in reality?"

They are non-constrained... that is their only difference to Physical Matter Reality. This reality has repercussion they don't.

"How do you personally initiate OBEs?"

I will say that I have so far employed most methods. My main 2 are by inducing SP and by phasing.

"What is the best way "overall" to initiate OBE during slight SP / full SP?"

This is a non-question because I don't have a specific translatable way to do it... I just turn my attention towards the nonphysical. Like one would daydream. But when I first started I would sit up, roll out... float out... rub my hands together and blow on them... climb a rope.

"What is a test to see if it was actually an OBE, have you tested this, results?"

To see if I was in this reality?

Once my friend told me that he had hidden some numbers in his house (he did this a lot) a couple of days later I finally got around to having a go... After seperation, I found myself an inch away from a blue vastness... tracking back, I saw a cartoony type face with white hair... I realised I was looking at a 'Smurf', then tracking back I saw a blackness then a white vessel that I couldn't interpret within the experience that upon phasing back to normal consciousness, realised was a toilet cistern. He had hid his mother's Smurf keyring in the toilet cistern.

There are more but that's one of them.

"Have you entered OBE from a LD?"

Yes... many times. Sometimes I wake up in SP and reenter it back into the same location that I left in the the LD... or by keeping focus and returning to a location I previously had during an OOBE.

[Astralzombie]

Is it honestly different, how?

I believe there is a difference between a lucid dream and an OOBE but they take place in the same exact place. That place is our consciousness. I could even make the argument that this reality is all in our minds since we interpret what we see here through our consciousness. I view this physical life as a room with four walls, a ceiling and a floor. My goal is to reach the ceiling eventually but I can't in this lifetime. I wish to avoid the floor at all costs. My walls are this reality, a dream, a lucid dream, and OOBE's. They have different windows and doors through which I can exit the room and see the "world". What I learn, can help me to reach the ceiling. If someone believes that we die and the game is over, then that's fine. They choose to be locked in a room.

To me, a lucid dream is just a "dream", but much more fun since I can take control. But I have never had a lucid dream that changed me profoundly. I distinguish a difference between the two because I have had regular dreams in which I have gained my awareness and made them better because I became lucid but I always operate within the narrative in which I "entered". It is when the narrative changes without my conscious intent, that I personally denote it to be an OOBE. At that point, I interact with beings in places that I have not created , at least not to my conscious understanding. I believe myself to be a sound mind. I do not suffer from any delusions. Some may say that to believe that all these experiences are real and not just "dreams" is delusional. But remember, we are trying to understand these experiences and why we can have them while we have physical bodies. The very fact that we are aware of the opposing logic excludes delusion in my mind.


What is your belief on where OBEs APs and LDs stand in reality?
See above.

How do you personally initiate OBEs?
I have had success with all different kinds of methods but they are generally the same when you distill them down. Relax, and shift focus away from the physical.

What is the best way "overall" to initiate OBE during slight SP / full SP?
I have my most vivid experiences after SP. Since I can induce SP intentionally, I can then phase out. Phasing is, I believe, the term used when you have an OOBE without any loss of awareness from the physical until you reach the non physical. When I focus back to the physical from the non physical without losing my awareness at anytime, I classify that experience as an OOBE. If I end up falling asleep, it could have very well been an OOBE, but objectively I can't disprove it to myself that it wasn't just a lucid dream. But these are definitions I impose on the experience personally. 

What is a test to see if it was actually an OBE, have you tested this, results?
In the beginning, this was important to me. Until I realized during an OOBE, that I wanted to try and prove "all this" to other people and not for myself. The point of "all this" is to grow individually so we can one day grow collectively. Proving "all this" lost it's importance to me when I realized that. I can't recall ever proving anything in the sense that Beedeekin described, but every experience disproves the "it's all just dreams" talk, for me anyhow.

Have you entered OBE from a LD?
"During an LD I decided to fly straight up as fast as I can and with as much energy as I could harness, soon after the dream turned totally black and I started hearing springy/zappy/metallic electric noises which caused me to wake up, I heard the noises for 300 milliseconds after my eyes opened" Maybe???

Had you not woke up in that moment of awareness, you would have most likely made a post similiar to this: Oh my God, I think I'm going carazy, please help me....." What you described is the exact moment that a lucid becomes an OOBE in my definition as well as how it transitions personally for me.

[Lumis]

I realised I was looking at a 'Smurf', then tracking back I saw a blackness then a white vessel that I couldn't interpret within the experience that upon phasing back to normal consciousness, realised was a toilet cistern. He had hid his mother's Smurf keyring in the toilet cistern.

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. You sound like an annoyed professor I can't imagine your friends reaction. "It was a smurf." (annoyed look on your face), I'm dying of laughter. 

[Bedeekin]

It was after this that he actually successfully attempted his first OOBE. Before that he was quite dismissive of it. Hence the failed trickery.

I think that the successful 'hit' made him realise there was something to it.

I also have an ornament I identified in a remote OOBE to Canada. A woman was part of an AP group on FB asked me to come see her. I did and gave her a description of her house... including a horrid garish disneyesque oil burner. I described it so well she thought I ought to have it and FEDEXed it to me. We actually put it out at christmas now as part of our decorations.

It is horrible though.

[Volgerle]

The greatest fallacy is to think that there is such an equation as

DREAM = "not real"

sorry, but that's complete BS.

many experiences with dream telepathy, dream remote viewing, dream precognition, shared / group dreaming have personally proven to me (and parapsychological research says the same) that dreams are A REALITY and also relate to this physical reality, they are also a reality that connects you to what most call their Higher Self

[sambamboo]

I have entered many LD's from total awake state, WILD. Sometimes I blink out for a microsecond then into a dream, sometimes the dream slowly materializes and sometimes its absolutely instant, like the second you close your eyes is the second you open your dream eyes. That is very rare though, but I am very well aware of my actual surrounding, with WILD there is no subconscious narrative, you create it, consciously. Usually I decide when to wake up, if not then yes you slip into a regular dream, but usually its a very conscious decision, from WILD.

So. "When a Lucid Dream is carried on without it forming back into a dream-like narrative and a clear intent is employed... it becomes indistinguishable to an OOBE"

Really? Then OOBE just sounds like a successful LD.

Note: During slight SP I obviously have those insane sensations, I like to play around with them, levitate or slip back and out through my head or imagine a character grabbing my ankles and swinging me around as fast as possible, basically enhancing that feeling as much as possible, but I have actually did anything with it, I just usually decide its time to LD, then create the dream environment or just wait for it to materialize.

But is OBE induction similar to that feeling? but instead of slipping into a LD you basically slip/swing/escape your body for an OBE. If so then imagine it feeling very strange once achieved, probably clear, nerving, and very sobering.

But really you can't say LDs and OOBEs are the same, well they shouldn't be, LDs are in your head, I do it all of the time, I am sure there may be some sort of influence from the outside world, but mainly its brain. I would think true OBErs would say NO its not the same, LDs are in your head, OOBEs are ACTUALLY real environments, like your real house, not a false awakening.

When I read people visiting very unique places and meeting unique individuals during OBE, well. I do that multiple times a week, talking to Dc's is very fun and more of a learning experience as you are talking to your self, and a seasoned LDer will visit the same environment over and over, consciously. The brain is MASSIVELY complicated and creative, as it can not only re-create living environments but generate situations, people, and environments with pristine detail.

[sambamboo]

The greatest fallacy is to think that there is such an equation as

DREAM = "not real"

sorry, but that's complete BS.

I do completely agree with you, anything that is, is part of reality, therefor you can not escape REALity. But your making me clarify the question.

We live in reality always, either its a creation form the subconscious, conscious, the world plain, or any other dimension there may be quantum'ly. I am convinced that this whole experience is generated by one creator, that is you, me. It is "I". We are "I".
When you look inward and the feeling you get from truly thinking "I", and when I look inwardly and honestly think "I", we are seeing the same thing, the same person, which is "I", I is "I".

You and everyone, "Sambamboo" is a tulpa from "I",  and the point is to just literally BE, to separate, to momentarily convince ourself that we are not alone, to experience "I" in different forms, obliviously. Trillions of moments, trillions of different realities governed by trillions of different laws, so on. Infinitely, "I" has an eternity to do so. Therefor everything is already a sort of dream, our waking state, LD state, OOBE state and so on. We are afraid of death because it doesn't exist and we have been and will be here for the long run.

So... I do absolutely agree, so my question is, does OOBE allow you to actually communicate and dwell in the world plain, where as LDs are based in the subconscious, mainly taking advantage of the creative brain.

[Szaxx]

The best way to get answers to your questions is to answer them yourself through experiences. There is a fine line between the dream state and an oobe yet they are almost the same thing.
Adding a metaphor.
Dream. Passenger in a car.
Lucid dream, front seat passenger giving the occasional direction.
Full oobe, you're the driver.
Its a basic way of interpretation but suits.
Its a long haul to be capable of full concious exits to order, it has been done.
If you are aware of how to then practice variations based on a phasing technique. (something you click with). This keeps you concious throughout the transition away from the physical.
Its most definately worth the time and effort. Eventually you'll understand the connection with everything, the validations you're searching for and how close you are at present.
Need help? just ask.
An astronaut knows, an astronomer thinks he knows.

[sambamboo]

Yes I will pursue OBEs, I think my best bet is to initiate it just before I enter a lucid dream or during a lucid dream. If in a lucid dream I will fly straight up as fast as a can and hold on to consciousness , last time I did that everything turned black and I started to hear very intense metallic springy zapping noises that caused me to fully wake up, but not SP symptoms. I think that was a sign before an OBE.

Just lay this out straight for non seasoned LDers, during a successful trained LD experience you can literally created your environment, from either a black or white plain canvas, houses trees people situations anything you want, all consciously, so you can be entirely in the "drivers seat" while LDing. Want a car? Bam... Red? Bam... Total scenery transformation? Shwing... Fly, swim, go through walls, materialize someone, someone specific, and most fun, experiment with techniques, for example I was swimming in a LD and was blown away by crystal clear vision when under water, so when I woke up I decided that in my next LD I will spawn a pair of goggles, fill them with water and slip them on. "Thinking it would trick my mind to achieve the same effect as the last one" Well it worked like expected, ultra clear vision and brilliant colors, then on after Ive pretty much been able to achieve that every time. But you ARE in total control, you think, ponder, experiment, think about a thread that your read on the net about an experiment, go through techniques you read in a book ect...

I don't know what phasing means, I will look into it.

This will be exciting, once I achieve I will share it here

[Lionheart]

 I find that the only difference between the three of these, Dreams, LDs and OOBEs, is your LEVEL OF AWARENESS.

Szaxx answered the question perfectly with his Passenger in the vehicle analogy.

I guess we can all agree that if we are not focusing on our physical reality at the time, then all of these occur in the NPR.

I Phase regularly as well and I do jumpstart the process quite a bit with a simple visualization. Example, focusing on a candle and flame, but after a couple of minutes this scene morphs into a full blown scenario that I have NOT directed. I am now a participant and can join this scene, but it is taking on a life of it's own. I can alter or change the scenario in various ways if I wish, via intent, or I can do what i normally do and just ride it out and see where it leads without altering it at all.

Now this is done from a fully conscious state, I can feel the vibrations and the other sign posts that come with this practice. So I am at peak awareness the entire time. When the NPR starts to show itself, it is very dark and blurry at first, but then quickly become vivid and colorful.

When I watch a Dream, I am doing show from a semiconscious state. It's very hard to recall a lot of it because my conscious awareness is not at it's peak, or even close to it's peak.

When I consciously awaken in a Dream, knowing it's a Dream, there is an initial period of shock. Then I do something to anchor myself further in the scenario. After I anchor myself my conscious awareness is at peak level, just like it is when I Phase. So, once again I can ride this scenario out or alter it into a whole new scene.

This is my own personal view based on my own experiences. Our own experiences are really all we have to go on. Once again it comes down to that mighty word "PERCEPTION".

Phasing is known as shifting your entire focus 360 degrees from physical to non physical, here to there, without a disconnect from your current conscious state.

[Astralzombie]

Sam:

I'm not sure who qualifies as a true OOBEr, but I believe both OOBE's and LD take place in our consciousness. What I want to know is what all makes up our consciousness.

I think you're wondering if we can have an OOBE in which we can fully interact with the physical world. In other words, can we lay down, have a projection and use our projected self to go to work and school and do everything else while our bodies are taking it easy in bed. Well, that I don't know. Maybe a very disciplines and skilled APer could on a limited scale but I haven't had a personal experience that would lead me to say yes. But we do have projections in the physical world with our but we're just not able to be seen by most people nor can we move physical objects.

What I do believe is that our consciousness can interact in the non physical reality with another consciousness that is not at our own, and visit non physical realities that are not our own creation.

This is a crazy journey and nobody physical knows all the answers. Welcome aboard

[Bedeekin]

What I do believe is that our consciousness can interact in the non physical reality with another consciousness that is not at our own, and visit non physical realities that are not our own creation.

oooh... I would say that we very commonly interact with consciousnesses that reside in this reality... but at a nonphysical level; during waking PMR existence and when focused within the Nonphysical. 

[Astralzombie]

oooh... I would say that we very commonly interact with consciousnesses that reside in this reality... but at a nonphysical level; during waking PMR existence and when focused within the Nonphysical. 

That;s what I meant by most people can't see us. But we can see them and a few do pick up on the presence. In the physical, I can't detect jack. Wish I could though.

[Astralzombie]

Wait a sec. Beedeekin, I mis understood what you were saying.

Are you saying that two separate consciousness whom both currently have earthly physical bodies can interact in the RTZ together?  If so, then yes I believe that as well although I have not done it. But in the RTZ, I have seen other earthly consciousness's that are not aware of me and I have only interacted with my guide in the RTZ. Strangely, all goes dark when he arrives.

[Bedeekin]

*Author removed long comment and reply to an answer because it seemed to be entirely ignored*

[Greytraveller]

Greetings and welcome sambamboo
Your intro post has certainly stirred up a lot of (positive) debate. Usually I try to avoid the 'difference between lucid dreams and OBEs' threads. Yet occasionally I will post my own beliefs. So here goes -
Yes there is an Important difference between OBEs and lucid dreams (LDs). OBEs occur when the consciousness (Spirit, soul, astral body or insert your own definition) separates and exists outside and independent of the physical body. OBEs takes place on either the ethereal plane (sometimes called the Real time zone, a higher (dimensional) extension of the physical material universe). Or OBEs occur on the astral plane (hence the term astral projection) which is also a higher dimensional realm yet which does not have any counterparts/duplicates in the physical universe.
LDs occur on the dream plane, which is also a nonphysical location like both the the ethereal and astral planes. Yet the dream plane is different from either the astral or ethereal planes. Essentially it is Much easier to create objects, people and scenery on the dream plane thus making it possible to create an entire storyline during a lucid dream. Creations in the astral and ethereal planes tend to have shorter lifespans and, in general, are harder to maintain requiring more focus and attention than during a LD.
Please note that my view is probably Not the majority opinion, at least here at Astral Pulse. The idea of a separate Dream Plane is probably Not shared by most of the members here. However, if you are interested I will direct your attention to the www.dreamviews.com website where there are several excellent threads supporting the idea of there actually being a separate and independent Dream Plane.
Hope this welcome was not overlong.

Cheers
Grey

[Volgerle]

The idea of a separate Dream Plane is probably Not shared by most of the members here.

I wouldn't be too adverse to this idea. Maybe it is a specific "private" area "in/on" the Astral Plane? Do you know Kurt Leland? He also writes in his books about the (separate) Dream Zone. An 'enhanced' version for more 'advanced' NPMR-experiencers is called by him the "Simulation Zone".

http://www.kurtleland.com/astral-projection-log/2006/99-recognizing-simulations-astral-plane

He also writes on the Dream Zone sth similar as you do, that is the easier creation of things and thought forms.

"There are several types of dreams. The first is a compensation for whatever's going on in the life of the dreamer. It occurs simply as a result of entering the Dream Zone, where thought creates experience more or less instantly." - K. Leland

source: same link as above

[Astralzombie]

Greetings and welcome sambamboo
Your intro post has certainly stirred up a lot of (positive) debate. Usually I try to avoid the 'difference between lucid dreams and OBEs' threads. Yet occasionally I will post my own beliefs. So here goes -
Yes there is an Important difference between OBEs and lucid dreams (LDs). OBEs occur when the consciousness (Spirit, soul, astral body or insert your own definition) separates and exists outside and independent of the physical body. OBEs takes place on either the ethereal plane (sometimes called the Real time zone, a higher (dimensional) extension of the physical material universe). Or OBEs occur on the astral plane (hence the term astral projection) which is also a higher dimensional realm yet which does not have any counterparts/duplicates in the physical universe.

Hey Grey,
Truthfully, some part of me does believe that some OOBE's do happen outside of our physical bodies. For lack of a better phrase, I'm a little gun shy to commit to that theory. I have been "burned" before by being absolutely sure of something that wasn't true IMO. See my signature. So, I'm leaning to the more widely accepted theory here at the pulse.

I'm not sure which is more fantastical but as far as I can tell, it has to be one or the other. It's the same thing with "God". Some people think it's so outrageous to believe that this universe and everything it entails was constructed by one all powerful being while others believe it to be constructed by an almost infinite number of beings who have all the power collectively. Since I believe in a Higher Power, as far as I can tell it also has to be one or the other. Except in this case, I feel it is more believable that all the power rests with all the beings when they are together. The great thing is, I can be wrong about this and not believe I'm screwed. That feels good. I credit the pulse collectively for that personal revelation. But if  wrong, I'll be the most vengeful son of a .......lol

[Greytraveller]

Hello Vogerle
Yes I am familiar with some of Leland's work. His 'dream zone' Is similar to the concept of a Dream Plane.

its_all_bad
You should Never feel forced to commit to an idea/concept/theory that you are not totally comfortable with. What IS important is to realize that the Fantastical Does exist, be it in the Dream plane, the astral plane, ethereal plane or the material plane.

Cheers 
Grey

[Astralzombie]

Grey- I agree completely

[Szaxx]

Some interesting concepts in that link Volgerle.
Didn't notice one on you being able to create a dome. That too is possible. It takes time and the subject matter somehow is vetted.I was creating an 'area' with inherent dangers to use for myself and got booted out of its creation. Its posted on here, I never heard of these created arenas being called domes. Its a good description considering their intended use.

[Astralzombie]

After reading the material that Volgerle suggested, I can think of many weird things in my dreams that can be explained by Kurt Leland's beliefs. For instance, his simulation theory explains why I sometimes see people in my dreams that I know are represented by another person even though I accept it for the narrative. These oddities can be there to tell us that this particularly dream is a simulation and should not be interpreted as a premonition or prediction.

Without the odd things in one particular dream that I posted here, I could have misinterpreted the dream as a premonition that my sister was really a murderer. In the dream, I did not jump to that conclusion (the wrong conclusion) and so the simulation continued until I reached the goal. Very intriguing theory.