Please welcome a critical but friendly voice

[gurugeorge]

Just popping in to say hello.  I'm a 45 year old guy who had a few strong non-dual mystical experiences as a child, but has never experienced anything in the Astral/Lucid Dreaming line other than a few sleep paralysis experiences (sense of presence in bedroom, entities flying about in bedroom) and one or two lucid dreams as a child.  I'm fairly well-read in philosophy, magick, mysticism, and I find I'm now quite interested in learning how to have these experiences - in a sort of experimental spirit.

I guess you could say I'm absolutely open to the idea that people have these pretty strong, vivid experiences of entities, other worlds, chakras, etc. - the whole enchilada!  The only thing I'm sceptical about is the interpretation of and explanation for these experiences.  I'm not sure I buy that these realms, entities, are necessarily how they appear in the astral - even if they are real entities, or representations of real entities.  I think the mechanism of these experiences (how they work) can be explained reasonably well by cognitive and brain science, except for this "otherness" component, which is obviously the most interesting aspect.  

To use normal vision as an analogy: people don't often realise that we only actually have a tiny area that's actually seen by the eyes, in focus, at any one given time, and that the brain "fills in" the rest of the world around that spot, based on memory of previous scanning of the area surrounding the spot, and on general constructive principles.  One has an intimation "as if" one can see the area around one's tv monitor quote clearly, but actually the only bit that's actually in focus, and not a very vague blur, is in fact the spot right where you are following these words.  You are simply imagining that you actually see the rest of the monitor and the room behind it, more or less clearly.

My working hypothesis at the moment is that with astral travel, just as happens with perception, we only in fact sample a small slice of the world and build a story around it (or "fill in" around it) - and these astral entities, if they exist, probably are so strange and unprecedented to our normal way of thinking that our brain "fills in" our astral perception of them in just the same way as our brain "fills in" with our visual perception - only it "fills in" familiar stuff in the gaps where it doesn't know how to categorise what it sees, based on imagery from our unconscious, the culture around us, etc.

[Frank]

George:

What I would respectfully suggest you do is before you begin deciding what experiences are, or are not, is to get (say) 5 years of hands-on experience under your belt first.

People regularly come along expressing all manner of ideas they gained from books. I don't know what it is about this topic that brings out all these closet theorists. I mean, if the topic we were involved in here was motoring, and someone came on telling us what driving was all about after having read several books on the subject, everyone would say the obvious answer would be to get in a car and drive it first. :)

If it helps, I can tell you right away your "working hypothesis" as you call it, is pretty near spot on. Just a couple of points are a little off: your use of the word "perception" I'm assuming you mean sight; and where you say "brain" you should really be thinking in terms of mind (the two are in fact separate entities). But apart from that, you got it in one.

However, despite your hole-in-one as it were, I would strongly suggest you simply let go of your preconceptions and learn how to look within yourself. Preconceptions just get in the way, and words are too far removed from non-physical reality to convey any real depth of meaning.

While practising this art, you must be centred and calm, neutral in thought and emotion, whilst being in an overall condition of relaxed attentiveness. That is the optimum state.

Based on what you say, you need also to start learning about the true relationship between mind and brain. The other aspect people ideally need to accept from early on is that reality manifests in all manner of forms depending on where those forms are being observed. So just because reality takes a particular form in one sense within the physical, does not necessarily mean any kind of valid comparison can be made between other kinds of forms that reality may happen to take within the non-physical.

Non-physical reality is no stranger to us. After all, it's where we normally "live". Yourself, along with most other people, only consider it to be "strange and unprecedented" because people choose to take refuge in smaller identities that occupy well-defined physical roles. Problem is most people still consider their perception is viewing their physical reality, instead of actually creating it. Fortunately, however, times are a changing so to speak.

Yours,
Frank

[gurugeorge]

I take your points and pointers, though I want to remain sceptical and to look at this from a materialistic perspective as much as possible, as a working hypothesis, as I say - that's not to say I'm not open to change of opinion; the point is, even if I did leap straight into practice I'd still have some preconceptions (e.g. perhaps the preconception that it's all to be taken at face value, or that it's all the work of deceptive demons, etc., etc.): I'm just laying my particular brand of preconceptions on the table!

[Jeff_Mash]

Hey George,

Welcome to the forum.  Heck, I see nothing wrong with a little bit of healthy skepticism.  After all, most of us are taught never to jump head first into anything without first looking both ways, analyzing the pros and cons of the situation, etc.

But I hear what Frank is saying as well.  There is nothing wrong with trying to theorize about what happens in this altered states of consciousness, but hands on experience is the best fodder for theories.  I can't tell you how many times my perspective and outlook on these things (OBE's, AP's, etc) have changed from what I have read in books because of personal, hands on experience that I've observed.

What usually happens is that we approach this subject with our own preconcieved notions, because that's all we have......what others have written about.

Based on those notions, we consciously decide whether we want to explore these things on a personal level or not.  Being able to remain objective and open-minded is the key though.  

I don't mean to ramble.  I just want to say that there is nothing wrong to have preconceived notions that you bring to the table.....but I see a lot changing in your perspective when you start to really experience these things on a regular basis.  Then you'll start to tweak and tinker with your outlook and you'd be surprised at how things begin to change.

Even myself, with hundreds of these projections under my belt, not only has my own personal theory on OBE's/AP's changed many times, but I NEVER, EVER tell people "this is how it is."  I always preface my words by saying, "This is how I see it right now at this stage of my life" or "This is what I feel to be truth at this time."  Something like that.  Why?

Because I know myself better than anyone, and I know that with more experience comes more knowledge, and more knowledge often requires me to adjust the way I was looking at things before.

[gurugeorge]

Nice one Jeff, cheers!