Gaame over or Are we a simulation

James S · August 07, 2002, 07:05:00

I loved the last scene in Men In Black, where it zooms out to show our whole universe as a marble that aliens are playing a game with.

Now as to this computer we're in, is it a spherical, hyperbolic or euclidean shaped thing. Actually more recent computosmologists think the CPU might follow Riemannian geometry.

Hey, If euclidean geometry is right, and the universe is flat, I wonder if you can fall off the edge just like you used to be able to fall off the edge of the earth when it was flat.

Ok, I'm getting silly now and this stuff makes my head hurt.

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

jilola · August 07, 2002, 07:41:01

The end in the Men in Black 2 isn't bad either

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>
I don't think it matters what the computers CPU topology is but rather the topology we are parametrized to percieve in the simulation.
They are two different thing IMHO.

Nah, can't fall off the edge. The univ. is infinite and thus your boots would wear out long before the edge and reality is a hard place to tread bare footed.

2cents in the coin slot

jouni

James S · August 07, 2002, 16:16:32

Ah, two very good points (and one humble opinion)!

Note to self: take spare pair of boots.

A little less whimsically though - It's a bit of a mind boggling thought isn't it?
I've heard people comment before on the "universe in a matchbox" concept.
What if all that we know is just swimming in the quantum foam of some other universe, or we find out that we're really The Sims. Kind of makes you think that if we hold too tightly to one concept of reality we might just end up having the existential rug pulled out from under us.

If the world suddenly turns blue, and we see big letters in the sky saying "General Protection Fault", we're in it deep!

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

muzza · August 08, 2002, 00:04:10

My brother and I debated this topic at length on numerous beer driven discussions about 10 years ago!

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

This one and another saying we could just be an experiment sitting on some kids desk...like an ant farm or similar.

They are all food for thought!

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

-- Muzza

clandestino · August 08, 2002, 02:24:02

yeah, i had a very short, beer fuelled debate on it last night with one of my mates. But we didn't have any evidence for / against it.....interesting subject though.

Anyway my mate mentioned that back in his school days, one of his classmates was convinced that the entire universe was a creation within his own mind, and that all his classmates only existed to serve / entertain him !!!

Needless to say - this approach to education didn't go down too well with the teachers in that school, ha ha.

astralspinner · August 08, 2002, 05:55:31

Then question I'm interested in is:
If we're computer-generated beings living in a virtual universe...
Are there cheat modes?

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>
The laws of physics would be enforced by the computer, so if you could 'cheat' the computer, you'd be able to disregard the laws of physics. Create energy, move faster than light, switch gravity off for a laugh... you name it!

There are 10 kinds of people in the world.
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

muzza · August 08, 2002, 07:36:42

I read an article today saying about how researchers are looking into the speed of light and how it may be slowing down....someone is tweaking the settings to the universe! hehehe

-- Muzza

Helmut · August 08, 2002, 08:10:14

Hi,
if you refer to movies MATRIX is the one. Remember the telekinetic kid saying " Don´t even try!" ?
If there is a higher reality, and I know there is, you can use many similes to examplify our reality level. Computer simulation seems to be a trendy explanation, but you end up on the same reality level you started with, if you give it a second and third thought. Doesn`t explain a thing. You can of course say we live in a kind of simulation, but for sure, it`s not run on a binary computer that works on the same reality level we are. The cosmic computer is analog, multidimensional and noneuklidian.
If you miss even one dimension of this multidimensional reality, then of course you are a simulation or a projection compaired with the complete multidimensional reality(god, universe, cosmic computer.....)
My 10 bits
Helmut

Mobius · August 09, 2002, 06:32:00

Hi guys

I can't believe no-one has written about the movie "The 13th floor". Man, you guys have got to get that one, as it sounds like new scientists ripped the idea off that movie, who in turn, probably ripped it from a science journal somewhere.

This is the basic plot, but I wont give away nothing you wont read on the back of the video/dvd cover:
Some computer dudes make this program where they have actual intelligent life all interacting within a world they have no doubt to believe doesn't exist. The program writer somehow gets himself into this created world & interacts with people in this world he created, the plot thickens when he meets a woman in his own world that tells him he & HIS world is HER program.

Kind of like a re-hash, change it around & add on a bit version of "TRON", check it out.

Cya's, Mobius.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_8ball.gif" border=0>

General-Army · August 09, 2002, 21:44:13

All of this is just sounding like complete bs to me. If we were simulations, dont you think the world would be more destructive? Humans are destructive, no matter how much they evolve. Why would there be a simulation of a paralyzed person? If they cant move why wouldnt they just cancel it? Why would they just let people sit around watching tv their whole life? We can get to the astral realm, and getting there can also prove we arent just simulations. Wouldnt leaving our body then mean leaving our simulation? Also, i would think that if these expieriences already passed, why cant we tell everything that happens? There would have to also be a reason why our future selves would send 4 billion+ Of there kind to live in the past as a simulation. Tell me what you think of this.

Every man has their fear of dieing, whether it be of pain or not knowing where you are going, however, mine is the family, memories, and good times i leave behind.

muzza · August 10, 2002, 01:15:35

Helmut/ Mobius: Have you guys seen Dark City? That is also a pretty cool movie based around a similar sort of idea that we aren't what/where we think we are. Yeah The 13th Floor was a cool movie as is TRON..I love that one.

General-Army: I think you miss the idea of a simulation. Every possible scenario needs to be played out whether it be a paralyzed person, a football player, drunk or even a spiritualist. Just because a person is paralyzed doesn't mean they become invalidated as an entity in a simulation. Leaving your body could also be a part of the simulation.

I think therefore I am or I am just programmed to think?

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

-- Muzza

Mobius · August 10, 2002, 05:08:18

Hey Muzza

Yes, definately a good movie that "dark city". After my last post I thought of that one as well, as it fits the criteria we are talking about here. I love in that movie the fact that the whole thing is taking place in a giant mothership type space craft, & how no-one ever questioned why they had new identities every day or two & what was beyond their own little communities which felt like such good comfort zones that they never developed the inkling to think about joe bloggs on the other side of the planet.

The way they reconstructed buildings everyday, reminded me of an episode of twiglight zone I saw years ago, where these little creatures would run around after people went to sleep & remake everything we see & interact with each day. Kind of like a pre-cursor to todays Quantam mechanics or physics? Can't remember exactly how it goes, but something like the reason solid objects are solid, even though they are just atoms, is because of the memory of all physical life keeping it in place. I'm probably mixing a few concepts together there, but it looks just great after the amount of bourbons I've just consumed.

I think the key word in that New Scientist article is "possibility", those guys chew through so many "possibilities", that it's a bit like making a movie, so may hours are filmed but only a small amount makes it through. In the same way, hundreds of these concepts crop up, but in the end, your lucky to get one or two that is accepted. At least it is talked about, so that even if the main concept was wrong, some of the data could be useful to someone.

Ok, back to my sweet sweet bourbon,cyas.

Mobius

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>

Kelmactor · August 12, 2002, 11:42:03

Mmmmm brownest of the brown liquors...

This idea of our life as a simulation controlled by someone unseen is not a knew concept if you think about it. In times past if there was an earthquake or a volcano erupted or if it rained it was the gods punishing or blessing us. Nowadays we have science to explain the world and put an unemotional slant on the meaning of life.

When you start to think about the motives of the force in control is when it starts to get fun. I used to daydream that our universe was a tiny speck of dust wedged down the crack of an immense lounge chair of some guy who never cleaned, and I dreaded the day he would finally decide to vacuum cause the end of the world.

When you get down to it there is no assurance that the world is real which cannot be faked by a higher power to fool us for whatever ends. All the senses we have can be decived easily enough by us mortals so whats to stop someone with enough power to construct a simulation world of doing the same and more :O!!

The only thing we can really be certain of is our doubt....

and of course the bourbon

I Love You
Sail On Through Me

jilola · August 12, 2002, 12:22:20

Ah, this turned into a film review

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>
No-one's mention Vanilla Sky yet. It's long, at times boring as h*** at times it pulls the rug from under you, but there's a neat idea related to lucid dreaming. If you can sit through 2.5 hrs of Tom Cruise on celluloid see it.

As for the actual simulation bit. Is anyone around well read on Kurt Gödel? He discovered that there are statements in any given formalism that cannot be proven within the context of the formalism. Can this be extended to the suposed simulation we're talking about. I mean, can we find something withhin our sphere of experiences that we cannot explain or prove? Say the existence of God? The limits of our universe or its beginning?

Kelmactor & Mobius: The existence of such noble a liquid as whiskey must be proof positive that whoever is running the simulaiton has good taste.

2cents

jouni

Mobius · August 12, 2002, 16:36:15

G,day all

LOL Kelmactor, like a lounge room scene of the bit James mentioned, the aliens at the end of the movie MIB where they are playing marbles, only one of them marbles is "our" galaxy & has fallen down the back of the lounge, only to be forgotten & then lost when once a year spring cleaning happens & he vacuums the corners of the lounge,hehe

Jouni, I havn't actually seen Vanila Sky, probably BECAUSE Tom Cruise was in it, but I will give it a second attempt now that you have mentioned it. I might have to keep a vomit bag close by though, or increase the amount of bourbon I consume.

Ahhh Bourbon, it really is the nectar of the Gods, I'm sorry if anyone disagrees,but I went to the council of the nine Gods & had a look at what they were drinking, besides "Loosh", Bourbon seemed to be the chosen drink of the Gods, honest. I do like beer too, but only lager & draught. Stouts like Guiness are surely just liquid toe jam aren't they?

Good journeys

Mobius

General-Army · August 12, 2002, 20:27:33

Wouldnt there have to be someone operating us?If there was, dont you think they would leave? Also, wouldnt you think that after thousands of years of human history and billions in earths history, dont you think some kind of error would have happened within the computers? Atleast once i would expect a shutdown or a power outage, even a war would have shut us down. The people of the higher intellignece would have thought atleast once, "We have more important things as of now then to worry about this simulation, we must shut it down." If we were put here as in reality, not with computers, but with an actual space ship dropping us off, we wouldnt be able to reproduce. We have actual flowing blood, a brain, flesh, and bone, not just computer scripting or code. If you were to look around your world, look at the sky, space, sea, and land, you would have noticed that it would have taken many years to make our society, wouldnt scientists have more important things to do in the future? The bacteria and diseases would mutate over time needing more kinds of medicine. Also, our own simulations arent anyone else. In final fantasy if you played it, their lives are already set, the storys are made, we control them, and they are just computers or AI. They have no memory. Also in GTA3, maybe this is a bit more realistic, they person who is the main guy, he is under your control, he has no memorys. But we have memorys, our minds are superior to any computer today, wouldnt you think it would be hard to have 4 billion+ Computers living at once?

Every man has their fear of dieing, whether it be of pain or not knowing where you are going, however, mine is the family, memories, and good times i leave behind.

General-Army · August 12, 2002, 20:31:52

Also, simulations can come back to life or retry life. But there are 4 billion+ Personalities and faces of humans, wouldnt they have to simulate all of that to?

Every man has their fear of dieing, whether it be of pain or not knowing where you are going, however, mine is the family, memories, and good times i leave behind.

jilola · August 13, 2002, 04:38:21

Could the deja vus be sensing that we've been restored from a backup?
As for 4bill computers they arenät necessary. If there is a time quantum ie a shortest possible amount of time perceivablee to us then all the simulators would have to do is update everybody once and then advance the time quantum. We'd notice a continuous change with no apparent lapses.
Also who says they haven't put us into storage any number of times. We just get restarted when the sim. is resumed.

They wouldn't have to simulate everything for everybody. Most of the world has no direct bearing on my perception or life so they'd only have to create a low resolution standins and only if I start paying really close attention (like meeting someone) they'd put the full detail in.

2cents

jouni

clandestino · August 13, 2002, 07:27:24

sorry Mr. general - army, i've got to agree with jouni.

You've probably seen "the matrix", which explains the concept quite well....All our sensory input is merely our brain interpreting electrical impulses. If a computer could simulate all the electrical impulses in my brain, it might have a simulation of what is going on in my mind.

Take 6 billion of these simulations, and there you have it - life as we know it !

Time as we experience it would therefore be a function of how fast time has been "programmed" to run - Our civilization for example might be a simulation run in 5 mins to the programmers, whilst we are experiencing it in our timescale of thousands of years.....

muzza · August 13, 2002, 07:54:39

General-Army: Think outside the square as they say

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0> Who says that the simulation that is our universe as we know it is being run on a computer as we understand them to be? Who says a second in our world relates to a second elsewhere?

I know that if I was running a simulation I would not want to wait hundreds of thousands of years for results. I would run it as quickly as possible and have the simulation spit out results all nicely summarised for me.

Also you say that scientists would have more important things to study? Well have a look about at some things studied today. People run simulations on wildlife populations and things like that..perhaps we are like that? Or perhaps we are just a bit of fun programming being done by some school student...maybe he will shut us down soon because it is bedtime! heheh

I will let all the anti-Guinness comments slide too!

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_tongue.gif" border=0>

-- Muzza

clandestino · August 13, 2002, 09:26:40

muzza, there's nothing wrong with a bit of ireland's finest.......it goes down a treat. Liquid toe jam ? ....i don't know....!

(ps no-one over in ireland drinks the stuff ; they're all happy with their Bud on tap ! )

Kelmactor · August 13, 2002, 15:39:05

General Army I know what you are saying but you are assuming too much about the controllers of our simulation, like they are interested in studying the same things as we are. It could be that they planted a few bits of DNA in the ground and then time travelled billions of years into the future to see if it took, leaving their super artificial intelligent nanobots in charge?? :O

Maybe they did it on every planet in the solar system with a slightly different DNA recipe each time. And the person who did it might have had to do it for a homework assignment and didn't really care enough to come back and check on all of them. The controlling mechanisms could be of such a different technology to ours that we wouldn't recognise them. They could be totally invisible.

We could be the equivalent of a carrot top left in a saucer of water that someone forgot about and here we are sprouting away.

If you want a film to watch about this stuff its definitely Invasion of the Body Snatchers. There are 3 remakes of it too its such a classic!!

If you want to consider a less accidental reason for our existence take a look at
www.acension2000.com

Someone posted this site elsewhere on this message board but I can't remember who or where. Its an excellent example of thinking outside the box we live in.

I've just had a thought, its bourbon that is controlling us!

No mustn't drink!
must resist urge....
not..........much.............strength..............left......

I Love You
Sail On Through Me

muzza · August 13, 2002, 19:47:16

clandestino: Guinness is my drink of choice!

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0> And those Irish can keep all the Bud they want!!

-- Muzza

James S · August 13, 2002, 21:04:10

Hey Muzza, you probably should be carefull of that Guinness. I'ts just like the old Symantec Utilities. Once it was good medicine, now it'll just corrupt your registries

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

I wonder if quantum physics is really showing us that we are in a simulation?
Think about it -

Multiverse theory - our simulation might be sharing memory addresses with another one.

Entangled pairs - bit of copy & pasting going on here you think?

Zero Point Field - maybe this the kernel of the operating system that is holding everything up.

Quantum foam - the actual particles of the storage media were being written to.

Maybe a Black Hole is just a bad sector. Thats a worry....astronomers are finding more black holes all the time. I hope we've been backed up, coz our universe might be in need of a swap-out. Hope its under warranty!

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

Mobius · August 13, 2002, 21:32:59

Hi guys

Heheheee, twas all but a joke, to be sure, to be sure, was just sending out some fishing line to see if I would get a bite, but looks like Muzza saw the bait for what is was, a joke.

Nah, seriously, I don't mind it (Guiness), but when it comes to that drink, it's a once only thing at the beginning of a few drinks, otherwise I feel a malt overdose. Then I resume sipping my sweet sweet bourbon, mmmmmmmm, bourbon. We are literally surounded by Irish bars where I live, 3 within 10 minutes drive from my house.

Hey General army, these things really do need to be thought about, even if they aren't reality, that's how scientists have been discovering so many things over the centuries, by putting to test what people have talked about or suggested or had little understanding of, & I'll add a link for a taste of some of the things they talk about or plan to put to the test, that just makes your head spin reading about it, let alone participating in it.

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/quantam/quantam.jsp

Good journeys all

Mobius

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_tongue.gif" border=0>

News:

Gaame over or Are we a simulation