Hi, I searched the forums, but I did not find the answer to my question, so I dare asking it in this thread.
You all know that James Randi offers 1million dollar for ANY proof of the supernatural. Now, In the book by mister Bruce, he mentions the test with the card one places on the window, facing outward. Then when projecting you can go and check the card.
Now, this looks to me like a fool proof experiment to do. And from what I understood from the book, at least mister Bruce, should be able to do it with ease.
So my question is: are there any plans to do this? And if no, what are the reasons for this. At least this would give a clear indication to the world that AP is real.
Regards,
Olivier.
PS: I've had LD, so I know one can lucid in dreams, but I'm still struggling with the question whether this is real or just something in my mind.
Just did a search and found many posts...
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=102046
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=84980
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=71474
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=68051
etc...
Hi Nagual, thanks for the links. I'm sorry (and well known) for my poor searching skills. :oops:
I guess I will have to find the answer for myself (I'm trying to get the AP to work, but it's rather hard).
Anyway, as a physicist, I still believe it should be possible to prove or disprove AP. That is the reason I want AP to work. Well I know it WILL work, but it is the reality I'm questioning.
Regards,
O.
Oadvroed:
Thank you for your interest but this topic has been done to the death already as you can see from the amount of available threads.
Yours,
Frank
Based on what I have seen, Randi is a dogmaticist, and his 1 million dollar challenge, despite all the media it gets, is a load of rubbish. There's plenty of evidence for it on the internet if you're interested.
www.alternativescience.com/james-randi.org
www.sheldrake.org/controversies/randi.html
http://www.victorzammit.com/articles/montague.html
If I was ever to develop abilities that merited undergoing a test with scientists, it would be with open-minded scientists who don't care about going against the materialist grain, not with any of CSICOPs hit men.
I don't think this man or anyone he appoints would be satisfied with whatever he is presented with, so, why bother?
i could open a portal to another dimension and make demons come out of it, he would say it was just some magic trick :roll:
Quote from: FeNc3ri could open a portal to another dimension and make demons come out of it, he would say it was just some magic trick :roll:
LOL exactly! It's all smoke and mirrors!!!!!
He'd likely say there was someone outside with binoculars looking at the card who radioed you the information.
Even so, I would like to see some proof of this stuff so I know I'm not wasting my time with a bunch of hooey.
If I can do telekinesis or make fireballs, I'll have convinced myself, but until then... convince me!
Well, I don't know if this is what you were referring too, but for the best book on scientific evidence of ESP and the paranormal I would suggest "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin.
Quote
If I can do telekinesis or make fireballs, I'll have convinced myself, but until then... convince me!
There was a video of a man doing telekinesis on this forum, but now there's no file library, and probably the file is lost.
There are lots of videos of guys doing telekinesis. The only problem is videos can be faked.
Yep, that's right, learn things yourself and only then you really KNOW. After that you have crossed over to the other side, and then you have to start telling other people that "you don't know for sure If you don't do it yourself"..and so it goes.
The problem with telekinesis and other stuff however is that if you don't believe it at all, then it's pretty sure that you won't be able to do it..so open mind and practice! If I can do it then so can everyone else!
It's a bit like doing a handstand, few can do it, but everyone can learn it if they put the time and practice into it, for some it takes longer than others but it can be done.
And about the proof stuff..it's funny, when you do it yourself and all the little bits of doubt blow away..then you have no more need to prove it to anyone. You know it and it doesn't move you in the slightest if someone says "it's impossible". It's like when someone says that there is no such thing as a monkey, because they haven't seen it! Not seeing something is a poor proof that something doesn't exist. And to someone who believes strongly enough that something is impossible no proof is enough. They can always say that it was a hallucination or a trick or anything, because it just can't be real in their minds. They have put such filters on that only the pieces that they allow can be seen. Sad but true.
Luckily I saw a bunch of spider monkeys at the zoo once :) We even gave them names. I forget what they are, I'll have to look up that tenth grade science project... one was called Rasputin Grover.
I think in terms of opening someone's mind to performing telekinetic feats, seeing it done in person is a lot better than seeing it on video. If you think about it, on a video, even a handstand could be done by someone who can't do it by turning the camera upside down, holding them up by wires or men in black costumes that blend into the background, the sky's the limit.
Seeing it done in person allows you to move your hand around for wires, check for magnets, and try and explain and define the phenomena in any way possible. When you can't, you will recognize it, and believe it to be at least a bit possible, and then attempt to do it yourself with that believe empowering you.
This is something I'd really like to see, as I am a skeptic, and while I think the psychokinetic videos are totally bad butt awesome, I just can't help but have part of me think "oh yeah but that might be done using this..." even if I know nothing about what I'm using to explain it. The mind will come up with any excuse to define what it doesn't know using established knowledge rather than to accept new knowledge, or at least mine and that of many other logical thinkers. Ah... to be a child who believes in magic... I envy them.
i walk around anywhere, any state, prob country and further... and people i havent met and people ive met talk out loud to my thoughts... embarrassing ones or amazing ones. its funny how the world proved telepathy to me...and still not one person came to me and engaged in conversation about it...only yelled things from afar...whose hiding?whose running? not i. but i get labeled crazy for speaking about what really happens, after ive been shot in the abdomen and poisoned and more...no hospitals or surgeries or operations, almost dead for so long. i wont let it happen again, but i remember what it was, no fear. i had always believed in the possibility of psi skills, i guess you dont even have to notice them to have them and use them... keep on
last night in the dark while contemplating those lights people see in pictures and a small red ball, bright too, zoomed past me. it was red round(about 2inches in diameter, solid looking), and traveled from about 2 inches behind me to about 3 inches in front of me.
Yeah, ESP and remote viewing have pretty much been proven without a doubt to exist, and are used by the military. They're in my psychology books at school, being taught as fact to high schoolers here, too. So things like this are nothing new. The stop from remote viewing to astral projecting really isn't a big one, just harder to prove scientifically. I've said before that science isn't designed for this sort of thing; it was devised for experimenting with more easily tested materials. It would probably be easier just to try to AP for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
Since there's at least one APer out there who's used it to win the lottery, it should be pointed out that if you can AP, there's easier ways of using it to get rich. So why bother jumping through hoops for somebody you'll never convince?
Even if somebody did present such an inarguable example they actually won the $1million, it still wouldn't change anything: People don't change their beliefs based on facts. They accept or reject facts based on their beliefs.
If they heard somebody won the million, they'd just dismiss it as luck or a really clever fake. So what would be the point of even trying? There's easier ways to get money and nobody would change their beliefs. And who cares what they believe anyway? It's not like we think they'll burn in Hell for not sharing our beliefs, eh?
On the other hand, you WOULD get a million dollars, so the fact that someone hasn't done this to provide proof to this one man tells me that perhaps it doesn't exist.
Hello,
I have a couple books here, one from a particularly well known individual by the name of Joseph McMoneagle. He wrote the book, "Remote Viewing Secrets - A Handbook. Joseph learned remote viewing in the U.S Army - he was Remote Viewer #001 in the Army's Stargate program - and was awarded the Legion of Merit for his contribution to various intelligence operations.
Another book I got for the more Logical thought people like myself is from a woman named, Serena Roney - Dougal. She wrote, "Where Science and Magic meet - exploring our psychic Birthright" . Serena has spent the last couple decades exploring this one side of undiscovered science like the men who try too much disproving things, instead of doing what she has done to uncover the secrets. she got her PhD in Psychology , she has done some twenty years' study and experience in scientific, magical, and spiritual explorations of the psyche. she has done workshops, seminars, taught courses, all around the US. and Great britian and most of Europes Famous Newpaper companies has written Numerous articles about her..
Look these two books up for a scientific view of things... Serenas book is not for a person who would have a hard time understanding long thought up equations would have a difficult time understand what she explains.
anyway im tired and probably made no sense here but i hope you all will look these two books up... Great titles... robert bruce i believe is among the other authors around who did great things to bring this side of un seen science out of water..
If the astral is said to be the realm of will, I see nothing prohibiting logical thinking. As is the case with memory, for instance, it's simply a matter of willing that the astral body be imbued with that property. Some of the Stargate people have said so too, if memory serves.
Quote from: astralspinnerSince there's at least one APer out there who's used it to win the lottery, it should be pointed out that if you can AP, there's easier ways of using it to get rich...
Anne Varnes won the $500 daily lottery. Nothing to sneeze at, but not all that impressive. If you imagine 1000 different people with one trial each trying to win the lottery through dreaming, the odds are one of them will.
Since way more than 1000 people are trying to win the lottery through AP/dreaming/spirit work/whatever, Varnes' triumph looks severely diminished.
It won't discourage me from trying though ;)
Seriously, someone astrally project, or mind-read, or do some telekinesis, prove this guy wrong, get the million.
Why is no one here doing it? Moderators? Robert Bruce?
There are plenty of people who could go for this challenge; honestly. There are numerous "true" chanellers, who could easilly expose details of this man's life which only he would know and etc... In reality, I would tend to believe that he's looking for undeniable hard evidence. In ohter words, he wouldn't accept your mere example of reading a card. I may be wrong, but if he's offering that much cash, he must want some really hard evidence.
On another point, not everyone is ready to accept the truth. Most souls at this stage are awakening more and more everyday. But still, many people will find the most obscure reasons not to believe in anything meta. They'll blame tv tricks on it. They'll blame that people read their files, gov. conspiracies; whatever...
Quote from: odevroedHi, I searched the forums, but I did not find the answer to my question, so I dare asking it in this thread.
You all know that James Randi offers 1million dollar for ANY proof of the supernatural. Now, In the book by mister Bruce, he mentions the test with the card one places on the window, facing outward. Then when projecting you can go and check the card.
Now, this looks to me like a fool proof experiment to do. And from what I understood from the book, at least mister Bruce, should be able to do it with ease.
So my question is: are there any plans to do this? And if no, what are the reasons for this. At least this would give a clear indication to the world that AP is real.
Regards,
Olivier.
PS: I've had LD, so I know one can lucid in dreams, but I'm still struggling with the question whether this is real or just something in my mind.
He doesn't want proof he can publish, he just wants personal proof.
Revealing details about people's life that 'only they could know' does not prove a channeler. If that's all they rely on, they're probably a fraud. Houdini revealed a lot of these idiots.
Do a card reading from another room, or any other controlled experiment based on randomness.
I don't care what the effects would be, there would be at least one psychic out there with a reason to do it.
If he could.
So why has no one done it? Has anyone tried it? Why?
I wouldn't
I've left messages on this site before to the effect that I have spoken to him personally, and he is giant, f-cking liar! In spite of his claims that he would pay expenses, he was in my area and free. There would be no expenses. I told him he could bring the object of his choice, and request the PK of his choice. He tried to explain to me why such things were impossible, and he would not watch.
Someone else, who has posted here, claimed that Randi has been propositioned publically in front of cameras, and he would not accept.
Give him your name, and you will learn what the purpose of the trick is. Anyone capable of a reading, tell us what you see.
http://www.alternativescience.com/james-randi.htm
That may explain why no ones are trying the challenge.
I'd not bother with Randi at all. If I really really had to bolster my ego by proving something to science, then if an oppurtunity came up to work with a university study on healing and energy work I'd do that.
Actually I want to see what happens if I do my energy work whilst in an fMRI or PET scanner (or both) Now THAT would really really interest me, and probably boost my ability (if I could see what was happening at the time).
That would be fantastic to see and do. So anyone here in UK facility of any kind that has access to this I'd be willing to volunteer for that. :-)
QuoteI want to see what happens if I do my energy work whilst in an fMRI or PET scanner
I have seen it. Basically, they show activity in the right hemisphere (already known for intuition).
Very right! I wandered blindly into Randi, because I was out to boost my ego. A shame that getting creative would not make him think.
I've measured what happens on my EEG machine (it's only a waverider jnr 2 channel using bioexplorer software for those who are interested).
Using sites c3 and c4 on one occasion and sites Fp1 and Fp2 on another. I controlled for muscle movement readings first of all-a real issue on fp1 and fp2 though mainly it affected amplitude readings in the delta frequencies.
The gist of what I found was that in all frequencies I could get much higher amplitudes than a running average. I'd hit over 50u microvolts from an average of 10. I set this as a little challenge and found that alpha was the easiest to increase and gamma was the hardest (40-64hz, which is the max on my device). However I did spike gamma to over 50 a number of times in the session. The spiking happened only when the energy sensations were the most powerful, typically when I was sweating from the heat.
Unusual side effects are a combined chilling and heat effect when I do this-happens in a healing session as well.
I want to try Randi's million dollar paranormal challenge!
My thread about it here:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=149433#149433
http://www.alternativescience.com/randi-retreats.htm They use THAT to disprove Randi? This is stupid. If Randi locked up a guy and he starved to death, he'd get in a lot of legal trouble. It would also take FOREVER to do, you can survive without food for over a month in some instances. It's also really easy to sneak in food, eat bugs, feces, mucus etc.
Besides, that's barely supernatural, and more attributed to genetics or weirdness than any supernatural powers. The cost in keeping him in a cell for such long periods is just ridiculous, and force Randi to pay money for something that may not even work. A homeless man could propose such a challenge, he wouldn't get anything to eat anyway, at least he gets water and shelter, and when he gets hungry and famous he can stop, and get all the food he wants.
If he wants to levitate 2 feet off the ground for 30 seconds, that'd be better.
Uh, all you'd really need to do is have someone moniter his health or take blood samples during the time. It wouldn't be that hard.
And, while I agree about how any bum could come in and make such a claim, really, if he can't get together the resources to test all those who apply then maybe he and his fans need to quit shoving this million dollar publicity stunt test in people's faces.
Personally, this short article about sums up my opinion of his test and its scientific "validity".
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/controversies/Auerbach_Randi.htm
QuoteI might actually title this essay "Why I no longer care about Randi's One Million Dollar Challenge," but honestly "So What!" sums up my feelings these days.
Over the last several years, I've been somewhat outspoken about the specific details of the rules of Randi's challenge. But recently, when being harassed by yet another disbelieving type about the test, some kind of light - an epiphany of sorts - went on in my head. The individual made a statement, with a question, that I often hear in variations from self-described Skeptics (actually disbelievers):
"The Amazing Randi offers one million dollars for anyone who can demonstrate something paranormal. If psychic abilities are real, why has no one won the prize?"
Rather than responding as I have in the past with a discourse as to why I don't believe anyone will win that money, I spontaneously switched gears. [The following is an approximation of the conversation]
"What would that prove?" I asked.
"Huh?" said the Skeptic.
"Why is Randi offering the money?" I asked.
"For anyone who can prove something paranormal," said the Skeptic.
"If someone did win the million, what would that actually prove?" I asked.
"Huh?" said the Skeptic.
"I mean, if a psychic won the million dollars, other than the psychic walking away one million dollars richer, what would that prove to the skeptical community or to Science?" I asked.
"That someone could do something psychic," said the Skeptic with some confusion in his voice.
"Would it? If someone won Randi's million dollars, would YOU accept that psychic abilities are real? Or even just possible?" I asked.
"Huh?" said the Skeptic.
"Would mainstream Science accept the probability of psi, if not the reality, if some psychic won Randi's million?" I asked.
"Uh-uh-huh?" said the Skeptic.
"Would the organized Skeptics accept that psi is real, or would they be more likely to believe that Randi was simply fooled, scammed out of his million? Would you?" I asked.
I received a blank stare from the Skeptic, then saw confusion appearing on his face.
I continued to push at him. "The fact is that people who do not accept the laboratory and other evidence for psi that already exists are unlikely to change their minds or their beliefs simply because someone beats Randi's challenge and wins Randi's money. In the name of Science, many keep raising the issue of parsimony, of Occam's Razor where psi is concerned. In this case, wouldn't the simpler explanation as far as the Skeptics are concerned be that Randi was scammed out of the money? In the name of Science, many raise the issue of repeatability. If someone beat Randi's Challenge once, how does this meet the criteria of repeatability? What does this prove?"
The Skeptic was silent, confusion and frustration (and a little anger) continuing on his face.
I finished with "If you can honestly tell me - I mean look me in the eye and tell me honestly - that you would be open to psi's existence if a psychic won Randi's money, I'll give you 20 dollars right here and now. It's not a million, but to be honest, your opinion isn't worth that much to me."
He walked away (okay, he stormed off).
I've since used this argument on a few others, whenever Randi's Challenge is raised like a weapon against the field of Parapsychology, and against the existence (real or just potential) of psi.
To recap: If someone wins Randi's million, he/she will be one million dollars richer. However, as far as Science and the Skeptics are concerned, the simpler answer to this conundrum is that Randi (or his chosen panel of judges) was fooled.
In other words, So What if someone wins the money. It won't change the prevailing attitudes towards parapsychology, or the prevailing beliefs of most who waiver to the disbelieving side of the center where psi is concerned.
As this is the case (prove me wrong, somebody - please!), we waste our time even giving Randi's Challenge the time of day.
It's not a benchmark for Science, or even the Skeptics. Why should we care?
So What!
Loyd Auerback
Media Skeptics... James Randi
The Randi Prize
Current Controversies page
Arch skeptics of the Randi breed hang onto their "faith" even more fervently than religious fundementalists I think :-).
I love that above article. So goddammed true. It pisses me off at times some of the crap a skeptic will try to shove in my face to "disprove" my own basic healing ability. I end up telling them where to get off, as they are not me and are not experiencing what I can or cannot feel.
To me those skeptics say one of 3 things. I'm a liar, I'm badly mistaken or insane. No other choices..though the last two are probably the same.
Next skeptic that implies this is likely to deserve what he gets.
I'm a healer but I'm not a white light fluffy into the bargain ;-).
Do you think if Randi saw somebody levitate themself, he'd believe paranormal things exist?
Lord of the Bunnies: It would prove it's not impossible, and at least slightly probable that such a skeptic would give in. Furthermore, whoever won the challenge might be called upon to demonstrate it again, and I think he should be quite glad to.
Major Tom: As difficult as getting through the process for testing is, the point is that for a million dollars, unless this guy is purposely not testing anyone at all, some of the many many many people with psychic abilities should have gotten through and done them.
First of all : If I ever get a psychic ability, I wont go for a million, I can use it to make billions. A tiny supernatural skill can give me a huge advantage over normal guys.
Second of all : I wont go out in street declaring that ability. It will make more enemies and make people careful, when you are around......decreasing your chances of getting a billion, and even surviving.....
Psan, a great argument, and one I would follow like you as well. Unfortunately it still does not dispel the argument: not everyone is so smart, and will want to show off. The first guy to prove he has psychic abilities will be rich and famous, they would definitely take it.
Quote from: beavisDo you think if Randi saw somebody levitate themself, he'd believe paranormal things exist?
He might, but he wouldn't have to say admit it, and after reading about how bad some of his TV appearances went for him, I don't think he would.
Quote from: Tyciolnot everyone is so smart, and will want to show off.
And they do it everytime.
And fail, because skeptics are smarter. :twisted:
On a more serious side, I feel you cant use the so called 'psychic abilities' too much for practical things, even if they exist. There seems to be some sort of check from beyond....somebody is ensuring that the physical remains strictly physical.
Otherwise, R Bruce or Monroe would be the kings instead of B Gates.
Even if the mentioned masters are too modest to do such thing, there are many who'd have done that.
Common sense.....just think.
Right... cosmic check... nice copout.
I believe, that if Robert Bruce and Munroe are being totally truthful about their psychic abilities, they're probably too involved in their Astral wonderland to put much effort into affecting the real world, not that there's some silly cosmic check stopping them.
QuoteAnd they do it everytime.
And fail, because skeptics are smarter. :twisted:
Just fail to convince, but there is no circuit of spiritual rapport between myself and some.:idea:
Psychophobia. - Lit., "Soul-fear," applied to materialists and certain atheists, who become struck with madness at the very mention of Soul or Spirit. (THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY BY H. P. BLAVATSKY)
If you are capable, be blatant and see what happens. It won't be fear as you might think of it.:lol:
Quotenot everyone is so smart, and will want to show off.
First priority, I wanted the $million. Second, I wanted to show the world that the paranormal is a fact. Third, I wanted to show off. Do you see something wrong with that?
I don't care enough about such opinions these days as to consider trying to jump through Randi's hoops. Now if there was a genuine scientific challenge that was clean and clear with only the intention of proof/disproof (is that a word?) the way science SHOULD be-along with a £1million prize then that would take my interest-of course it would.
The fact is anyone well informed about Randi, would totally avoid the man-even if they could walk on water.
QuoteFirst priority, I wanted the $million.
Beavis, you mentioned that you were into computer science, didn't you? Have you considered the P=NP problem?
http://www.claymath.org/millennium/
Or one of the other six $1 million prizes? Considering all the trouble you would have go through with courts and Randi, I would think that it would be about just as difficult.
I knew about those 7 $million problems. I tried to solve P=NP for about 200 hours total. Got an approximate solution that only works some of the time. Worthless. The weirdest thing I tried to solve the "max-clique" version of that problem is to put all the vertexs into a space with as many dimensions as there are vertexes, and let their connections or lack of connections push and pull on each other. I tried asymptotic equations, exponential, and lots of others. I tried never letting any 2 vertexs that werent connected get closer than some set distance, so only a true clique could come together, but the cliques didnt always come together. I think it could be made to work, but would take so much time that its disqualified as P.
Miracles would not occur if probability could not be altered.
Things we dont know about can be altered, but the ideas describing random things cant, unless they are found not to be random... and then those laws do not apply and are still correct.
Who said anything is random?
only random things have probability
So... no one around here feels like having a million dollars? Even if you're one of those 'lack of material possessions' guys you could donate this to a charity for orphaned burn victims, they could use it.
The fact that this challenge still exists makes me think all this stuff I'm interested in is all fraud and delusion, or James Randi is some seriously evil psychic magician who is stealing all their powers and trying to keep the supernatural under wraps...