1,000,000 lb stone moved by Ancient South Americans 20,000 years ago

[Stillwater]

This isn't exactly breaking news, but it was new to me, and the details are nothing short of staggering.

There is a site in Bolivia called "Puma Punku" (Gate of the Cougar), which was believed to have served as a wharf on Lake Titticaca. Although it was built some 17,000 years ago, the stones which constitute it weigh between 100-150 tons, with one in particular weighing 450 tons (around a million pounds). The nearest quarry is thought to be hundreds of miles away, and 2 miles lower in altitude. The stones are carved into finely fashioned rectiliniar patterns with relief and cantelevered patterns; some are actually cut to form extremely sophisticated locking systems between them.

Another detail, however, that is of great interest is that the stone from which the pyramid and wharf complex was carved is diorite! That is the hardest granite in existence, just barely softer than diamond. There are cuts made to the stones of humbling percision- there are five-millimeter grooves cut into the sides of the stone that are laser-level accurate, with equi-spaced five-millimeter holes cut into the grooves that are perfectly drilled. Modern engineers have stated that we possess no tools today that could have cut diorite to that percision short of fine diamond-tipped drills, and for a people who predated bronze-casting by many millenia (and bronze is far to soft to have been used), this is utterly bewildering.

There are many other peculiarities to this site, but I think that is enough to get people to think. In almost all of these sites, people are so overcome by the details of its construction, which does not at all reconcile with its locate and date, that many resort to the "aliens made it" gig, lol. Links that seem to have good information:

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm

http://weeklyworldnews.com/alien-alert/6766/puma-punku/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPZpOAEm7mQ  (nice images, dramatic music)



Stillwater

[Stillwater]

Oh, and by the way-

I did a bit of research, and the largest cargo-plane in existence, the AN-225 can carry up to 250 tons.

The largest ground-based mover, the Terex Titan, which is so big that it is actually assembled on site, can carry up to 350 tons.

Now as I said, one of these stones actually weighs 450 tons....


I think that goes to show that we currently do not possess any capability to move a single object of that weight by any means I know of; somehow, however, Palaeolithic age people , without wheels, managed to haul that stone hundreds of miles up a mountain- I have no words to describe how unfathomable that is.

[CFTraveler]

Frankly, that looks like cast concrete.  I wonder if they had a way of making concrete?  Even the shape of the blocks suggest moldmaking. (I used to work in ceramics and there is a certain character to molded elements, in that the indentations always look like done from the outside, instead of put together after cutting.)

[Stillwater]

That is a good point you bring up.

I can definitely see what you mean- I have worked with detailing elements for stonework on public buildings, and you can always tell the difference between carved stone, and the poor concrete substitutes (called cast-crete by those who would pleasure themselves with its "authentic" appearance). The latter always have extremely fine edges and corners which show no sign of tooling, and I admit there are a lot of edges that have a such an appearance in Puma Punku, such as those stepped vertical motifs on the sides.

But I would also bring up the idea that casting has indeed been proposed as an explanation, and this hypothesis has a lot working against it. For one, the stone material has been positively identified as diorite, which, although it is formed volcanically, would require temperatures in excess of 12000 F to be cast. From what I read about it, the stone has the structure of being naturally formed by heat, not by a composite curing process, so if it was cast, not only would the caster have needed a means for getting the stone to that temperature, a means of shielding themself from the intense heat, and, but just as importantly, a materiel that can serve as the mold, without itself going molten.

I am not saying you are wrong, as no one really knows, clearly- I am pointing out that although this is a possible explanation, the logistics of how the stone might have been cast, if that is how they were made, are also far beyond us.

[zareste]

Well, most of history doesn't make sense if you follow the old geocentric 'alone in the universe' model. Explaining something like this may be a matter of dropping some pre-conceived notions instead of building on them

[Stillwater]

Well, if you are saying that we had "outside helpers", lol, I am the last one to say it is impossible.

I think the way I approach it is this-


I am leary about statements such as,

1) "It looks as though people could not have done this on their own ---> therefore, aliens helped"

Oddly enough, though,  I am not bothered at all by statements such as,

2) "It is conceivable that humans were helped in their efforts by outside forces, aliens, etc."

I think the thing that I disagree with in statement 1 is the assumption drawn from insufficient premises, whereas a statement like 2, although similar to the conclusion of 1, is a standalone idea that does not rely on shaky logic.

The part I disagree with is using invalid modes of logic to advance an idea- I can definitely agree with an idea, but still object to the way it is supported.

I tend to approach a problem trying to see if it can be solved with least number of outside assumptions possible, and in this case, that would involve seeing if there is a way in which humans could have fashioned this monument. I totally acede, however, that there are plenty of phenomena which evade mundane answers, and that makes it all the more fun- in fact, I base much of my worldview on the things which cannot be explained without the advent of outside information, so I think we are actually on the same page, Zareste 

In truth, I think the "it's aliens" possibility is as believable as any, given the circumstance- I just don't think we should make a judgement on insufficient information. I think we can each find agreement in that.

Stillwater

[zareste]

I guess it's all speculation no matter how we look at it. If they got an extra hand from the outside, it would be interesting but not too beneficial to us. We still wouldn't know how they made the darn thing.

Anyway I'm stumped on this one. A telepath might be able to search the information out, and the method was probably something surprisingly simple.

[Stillwater]

yeah, I could see that being the case. Sometimes, when you are so fixed at viewing a problem from one angle- taking it apart, putting it back together, changing the wiring, etc., that little kid will always come in and plug it in for you.

[CFTraveler]

That is a good point you bring up.

I can definitely see what you mean- I have worked with detailing elements for stonework on public buildings, and you can always tell the difference between carved stone, and the poor concrete substitutes (called cast-crete by those who would pleasure themselves with its "authentic" appearance). The latter always have extremely fine edges and corners which show no sign of tooling, and I admit there are a lot of edges that have a such an appearance in Puma Punku, such as those stepped vertical motifs on the sides.

But I would also bring up the idea that casting has indeed been proposed as an explanation, and this hypothesis has a lot working against it. For one, the stone material has been positively identified as diorite, which, although it is formed volcanically, would require  temperatures in excess of 12000 F to be cast. From what I read about it, the stone has the structure of being naturally formed by heat, not by a composite curing process, so if it was cast, not only would the caster have needed a means for getting the stone to that temperature, a means of shielding themself from the intense heat, and, but just as importantly, a materiel that can serve as the mold, without itself going molten.

I am not saying you are wrong, as no one really knows, clearly- I am pointing out that although this is a possible explanation, the logistics of how the stone might have been cast, if that is how they were made, are also far beyond us.

Oh, I have no way of knowing if I'm wrong or right- anyway, concrete making is a sign of technological progress anyway, as you pointed out.
The style of the thing (as opposed to more 'conventional mesoamerican stonework) also reminds me of how postmodern architecture is so horribly soulless if compared with the earlier architecture styles- how technology has made things look utilitarian and just plain ugly (you can tell I don't like modern and postmodern architecture, lol) and yet it is posterior to the more esthetically pleasing buildings.
The things (the Puma P. buildings) remind me of missile silos or a large prison.  I just can't shake the dislike I felt when I saw them.

[Stillwater]

The style of the thing (as opposed to more 'conventional mesoamerican stonework) also reminds me of how postmodern architecture is so horribly soulless if compared with the earlier architecture styles- how technology has made things look utilitarian and just plain ugly (you can tell I don't like modern and postmodern architecture, lol) and yet it is posterior to the more esthetically pleasing buildings.
The things (the Puma P. buildings) remind me of missile silos or a large prison.  I just can't shake the dislike I felt when I saw them.

Now that is something I can resonate with, lol. I am an architecture student at one of the very few universities in the U.S. that espouse a return to historical forms and building types, for both reasons of economic sustainability, and matters of character; it is tragic how the post ww1 world became so intoxicated on the wine of the times (Gropius, Corbusier, and friends), that the public was willing to forget the rich lineage of forms that celebrated both nature and humanity's place in it through art, a lineage which was passed on to us and developed for over 3000 years, in favor of this pseudo-functionalist, self-defeating dogma that clad our civic centers in soul-less nihilism. Sometimes I would question whether I would have taken the doctrine of whatever university I had attended, but I just cannot see myself finding any meaning in the zeitgeist-pandering that I see pretty much in any other place. So I can most definitely relate to your distaste with post-modernism. It seems the only way forward today to is take a few steps back, really.

Rant over, lol.

[zareste]

It's true, in fact the more advanced cultures out there (way out there) make their houses from the simplest clay. No layered walls or sharp corners or processed materials. The reasoning behind this is something our 'modern' society is totally unaware of. The more you process a material from its original form (mixing it, burning it), the more out-of-sync it becomes with the planet. The material becomes foreign and begins to distort the ambient electromagnetic flows, the plasma flows, and the radiation flows. This can cause distress to life forms living in and around the structure, leading to weakened immune systems and things like cancer.

The ancient Egyptians were quite aware of this when they setup their structures. They accounted for the ambient flows of the Earth as well as the stars and planets in order to make a perfect energy flow.

Quite a contrast from our dirty layered buildings made from god-knows-what from god-knows-where. It's actually very primitive

[Stillwater]

The reasoning behind this is something our 'modern' society is totally unaware of. The more you process a material from its original form (mixing it, burning it), the more out-of-sync it becomes with the planet.

You win the prize. Purefied titanium was never meant to be a building face, Frank Gehry. Want to know the best thing to build a building out of? Look around you, and see what is still around in nature after the eons have passed. See where all of this polystyrene, polyisocyanurate, and acrylic-surfaced glass gets us. Yet things peasants and artisans put together 900 years ago are still around, and revered far beyond anything we have made.

[EscapeVelocity]

Whether diorite or Sackrete cement, it's amazing architecture...

And i think the quote by Plato is so apt...but hasn't he always been such?

[Stillwater]

Plato is pretty sharp indeed. His dialogues have such a reverent quality to them, and he formulated many powerful arguments about the metaphysics of the soul and the "form of the good" which were not really appreciated until the time of Descartes.... I think Plato and I part ways slightly when he speaks of censorship of literature, and his concept of divine recollection as opposed to actual learning, but that does not change the fact that there is much to be found in the Phaedo or the Republic, even today.

[zareste]

I read somewhere that the Atlanteans made their buildings by shaping hard rocks.  They used some form of resonance that made the rocks soft like clay. Once they shaped it, the rock would gradually return to its hard state. To lift the rock, you could use a similar method that makes it light enough to lift with basic tools.

It seems to work like our 'acoustic levitation' but they knew it more intricately. I've been studying some channelings and other texts by humanoids who can levitate objects, and they say they do it by controlling 'fields' between atoms. These fields (I gather) are quantum waves that control atoms the way sound waves can control sand in a box. Different frequencies cause the sand to group in different patterns. Quantum waves do the same with atoms.

The wall behind you, for example, is kept together by a field that organizes the atoms. These fields have frequency 'codes', and with the right tools (or sometimes just your mind), you can read and write these codes to alter the object's properties.

So things like the stone circles in Europe and the pyramids could be setup using simple tools and a set of resonance codes.

[radman32]

See, this topic makes me really believe there has to be an outside force assisting in phenomena, but to relate to AP, do you suppose these people contacted these outside forces and asked for the knowledge on how to do this and got the necessary resources? Or sought some assistance and got more than what they asked for? Or got less, because it looks unfinished. Or possibly, they tried to make a base and some other intruders invaded and halted the process? It's all interesting to talk about this stuff!!