BBC documentary about Castaneda being fraud

[Haridas]

If anybody missed this or could not watch, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg6baC0rPO8

It is divided to 6 parts.

I put link again, hope it will work now.

Cheers!
Haridas

[CFTraveler]

I don't see a link.

[Hannah b]

I don't see a link and I don't trust BBC.

[Selski]

I would love to see this as I've just read two of his books.

Sarah

[Gandalf]

I've seen the doc.

I didnt like what I saw.

No matter how much you like his books, the evidence is too hard to ignore that he was a fraud in the sense that his books were not revelations from 'Don Juan' or genuine Yaqui mystical knowlege.

What is true was that he was a fantastic writer. Added to that he had a genuine knowlege of *real* shamanic practice and Yaqui tradition thanks to his research as a trainee anthropologist. Unfortunately the real Yaqui shamanic system is nothing like what is presented in the books. The real shamans are actually more concerned with practical matters like getting good harvests and ensuring fertility of the tribe etc.

What appears to have happened is that Castenada saw a gap in the market for a new approach to new age teachings (it was the 1960s after all). What he did was start to read mystical/occult literatutre from lots and lots of different sources, from all traditions.

He then 'repackaged' them but reinterpreted them in a 'shamanic style', using shamanic terminology and themes to give it all a fresh approach. As Castenada was such a great writer, this approach works very well.

Many people have found that his books do have very real spiritual value. This is actually not suprising, as Castenada researched and read a wide variety of occult/mystical literature and incorporated it into his shamanic system, so its no wonder that many of the ideas hit home to people.

However, he is a fraud in that he definately tried to suggest that this material was all genuine mystical knowlege handed down to him from Yaqui shamans and the character 'Don Juan'. This is untrue.

In the end he completely misrepresented Yaqui culture and actually had a huge negative impact on the tribe as they have since been continually accosted by bus-loads of hippies looking for 'don juan', who it appears, never really existed.

In the last years of his life, Castenada decended into the usual depressing stereotype cult leader, complete with sex slaves etc.

After his death, his three closest diciples/sex slaves comitted suicide, and one of them drove out into the desert and seemingly took a final walk into the baking heat.

It was a sorry end.

Having said all this, there is no doubt however that his books are a great read and do contain genuine spiritual knowlege and given a nice shamanic theme thanks to his great writing style. Just be on your guard and remember to take some of it with suitable pinches of salt.

[DH]

Fortunately the message transcends the messenger.  In the Bible, Paul says that fallible humans are like "cracked pots that sill hold valuable treasure."  Indeed, many of the messengers are crack pots!  DH   

[Stookie]

Good one, DH:)

I've read the majority of Casteneda and have gotten a good bit out of it. The first few are really fun to read. But I was always sceptical of whether Don Juan really existed and doubted the idea that he transformed into pure energy. Fun books though.

It would be great to have those links...

[DH]

I've read the majority of Casteneda and have gotten a good bit out of it. The first few are really fun to read. But I was always sceptical of whether Don Juan really existed and doubted the idea that he transformed into pure energy. Fun books though.
It would be great to have those links...

Yeah, they are fun to read.  Even though I, too, was skeptical about a real Don Juan, it was his first book that stated getting me interested in areas of spirituality I never knew existed.  Jeez, that was a long time ago.  I'm starting to feel a little geezerish.   

Ditto on the links......

[Paola]

I am about to read my first Castaneda book, The art of dreaming.
Thanks for the insight!
Maybe Don Juan was a channelled entity? The mind is just a hologram anyway?
But i havent read his books, so i really cant say.

I had an interesting obe last night, i was asking people there, whether they were projecting or dead.  Which is progress for me, for im focused enough now to ask questions.


Thanks
Paola

[Gandalf]

Well, as research on Castenada's work shows, he has gathered a wealth of spiritual and occult lore from many different traditions and re-packaged them in a 'shamanic style', so if people ask me 'do his books have any value?'

I would say yes. Many of these ideas are valid ideas and he communicates them so well as he is such a good writer; so yes, Castenada is well recomended and his books are of great value. Those who dismiss him 'because he is a fraud' are kind of missing the point.

As an earlier poster said, its the message that's important, not the messenger.

Not that I agree with all the concepts in Castenada's books of course. His idea of transforming into pure energy is nothing short of total science fiction! But his books do contain a wealth of valuable info and great insights nontheless.

Doug

[violetlight]

wow, im glad this thread is here, cos i just finished "the art of dreaming" and was eager for a discussion.

its great that information like this is available, cos it can be easy to fall into the trap of taking the words of one person as gospel.  id love to know what parts were what he found through research, and what were the bits he added in himself.  eg. did he create the whole concpet of the 7 gates of dreaming, or just add details in the form of imaginary experiences, in to illustrate what he'd learnt.  interesting.

i found i could really identify with lots of that book, while other parts were very far removed from anything ive experienced.

the inorganic beings really bewildered me, and its made me wonder who's thoughts youre really hearing, and acting out, in your dreams.  does anyone know if this was fabricated? the thought of things having that element of potential power over human be-ings really didnt resound with my belief of the Universe (which im always open to updating )

there were lots of other things too.. im actually planning on re-reading it loosely, and finding entry points for discussion into it, as i believe theres alot there to look into.  if anyone would like to bash it out ive started a thread here: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_book_reviews/the_art_of_dreaming_by_carlos_castaneda-t26057.0.html

what is the documentary called btw?

[violetlight]

haridas just posted this link again on another thread, and it works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg6baC0rPO8

im currently watching it.  have to say, i happen to be a documentary filmmker, and so far, im skeptical.  will say more once ive seen the whole thing.

[violetlight]

hmm.  im not convinced.  firstly, its an extremely biased film. the interviews are very heavily edited, and techniques that manipulate the viewers' perceptions are being used very obviously

there were a few statements they were trying to pawn off as "evidence" that were really a stretch.  for example- the first and third books are set in the same time frames, but there are glaring inconsistencies in don juan's character between the two.  apparently its impossible for peoples personalities to change from day to day..!  im sorry, but any man who has witnessed pms will disagree!    sorry- total joke btw, anyway, people's personalities change with the weather.  furthermore, it could be something as simple as castaneda's percpetion of don juan changing- he begins to perceive him in a more amicable light as time goes by.  therefore, the third book, while set in the same time frame as teh first one, is being written in a completely different timeframe. it feels petty to be even going into this as an example, but i was pretty shocked by the sloppiness of the journalistic integrity of this film, and this is a stark example of it.

i was also pretty surprised that the director was willing to let castanedas ex-followers (2 stalkers with very suspect motives, and a woman who looks like she should be in rehab), proclaim that 4 of his female followers had killed themselves, despite there being no supporting evidence.

also, the stalkers found marriage documents and womens clothing bills.  but the alternative- that maybe castaneda is being manipulated by his 'followers'- which is briefly suggested by his son and wife, is not explored.

to be honest, i dont have a clue how authentic or inauthentic castenadas works are.  ive only read 2 of his books, and loved them.  i tried to keep an open mind.  all i know is that, as a filmmaker, i would not trust the above documentary.  the whole production reminded me of a cross between an epiosode of "america's most wanted", and the episode of the simpsons where homer is accused of sexually harrassing the babysitter. 

[violetlight]

ALSO (this is becoming a rant  ), the suggestion that castaneda used these followers as his sex slaves:

back in the periods preceding the witch trials,  male and female witches partook in rituals that opened up the chakras to receiving divine energy.  these included brewing potions, sharing meals, and performing sexual acts.  sexual alchemy- which often took place between members of the same sex- was not about physical attraction, but about opening oneself up to higher levels of consciousness. (and in puritan times, no wonder these people began to be persecuted and linked to the devil!  people who are sexually 'loose' or have a different orientation are still demonised by many subsects of society)

i believe its totally possible that sex was a part of the sorcery that castaneda was being versed in- in fact, there are 2 very slight references to it in "the art of dreaming".  im guessing castenada ddint want to go into it too much cos it was likely his books would have been censored!

more rants to follow im sure... 

[violetlight]

in relation to castanedas claim that don juan died consciously:

"The Amazon shamons believe that when you clear all your chakras,
you acquire a 'rainbow body'. Each centre vibrates at its natural
frequency, and you radiate the seven colours of the rainbow.

"According to legend, when you acquire the rainbow body, you can
make the journey beyond death to the Spirit World. You are able to
assit other in their healing, and you can die consciously since you
already know the way back home."

exerpt from "shaman, healer, sage" by Alberto Villoldo Phd

http://www.amazon.com/Shaman-Healer-Sage-Yourself-Medicine/dp/0609605445

[Hannah b]

Thanks for the link.
A couple of years ago I was really into Castaneda and especially the books of the "witches" Florinda Donner and Taisha Abelar.
It's interesting to see Castaneda from this point of view, surely there is a grain of truth in it (or maybe even a whole big rock of truth!) As I have mentioned earlier I don't trust BBC because I work in film (hello Violetlight ) and simply know that BBC is very careful about what is being said, censors issues that are not "comfortable" ; makes it "safe" for the random viewer to watch.
Violetlight:

i tried to keep an open mind.  all i know is that, as a filmmaker, i would not trust the above documentary.  the whole production reminded me of a cross between an epiosode of "america's most wanted", and the episode of the simpsons where homer is accused of sexually harrassing the babysitter

I agree. A poor, heavily edited (read: manipulated  ) film, through which BBC is telling us: See? It's all a hoax this new age junk...! There are no multiple realieties, OBE's, crop circles, UFO's...it's a load of cr@#!

[Gandalf]

Hannah:

I wonder if you are going too far with your perception of the BBC. Many Americans make this assumption also, that because the BBC is a state funded broadcasting agency, it is 'state controlled' ie a propaganda machine like you find in Russia or China.

This is simply not true. If you actually look into the set-up of the BBC you will find that it is a state *funded* broadcaster, but one of the core constitutional principles of the BBC is its freedom of expression and freedom from governmental control. This is one of its guiding principles.

For this reason, you will find that the BBC is not in any way 'the spokesman for the government'. Quite the opposite in fact:

The BBC has actually been criticised in the past for its anti-governmental bias and its lefty-liberal outlook, and it has been recently accused of being overtly biased against Blair and Bush's war in Iraq (mind you, who can blame them!).

[Hannah b]

Hey Gandalf,
I'm not saying that BBC is a "state controlled" propaganda machine. I'm saying that they are not as open as they seem. Yes they show you films that expose certain subjects, but they rarely show it objectively. Just like in the case of the Castaneda film. I'm more than sure that they had interviews with people who did have positive experiences wether Castaneda was a hoax himself or not. I'd love to hear more interview with the wife of Castaneda (since they do have a recorded interview with her) and HEAR when she said that Castaneda didn't know much, no- instead of that you have a guy (that is anti Castanedan) tell you what the wife has said...see...little trick...but that is called a manipulation.For me BBC doesn't bother to dig in deeper, it just shows what is comfortable for them. They make the ipression of being open by saying: Hey! look! we're very open! we did a film a bout Castaneda!...But did they really show us everything that there is about him? Did they let the viewer decide for himself who he was and what were his intentions? No, you were given the answer right in your face, so that you won't ever have a doubt that it's all a bunch of lies..... What I'm saying, looking at it from my professional point of view is that they are often one sided, especially with the spiritual issues. Maybe I sounded too harsh, but this film from my perspective is poor and manipulated. I happen to believe that in some way broadcasting agencies are under the control of the governments to hide the uncomfortable truths. It's often little things they hide, like in this case showing a positive feedback from people. For me, Castaneda's books have changed my life and have helped me a lot, despite who he was and what he did. Maybe there is even a third side of it all that has never seen the light, and was never mentioned in the film. Manipulation in film is usually invisible, because it consists of little tiny things. I see it because I do it myself As for BBC, I have friends who were working for them and had to control themselves in some ways....nothing major, nothing serious, but still. This is why I generally tend not to trust TV stations. I'd love to see BBC show a film about lets say the whole drink milk campaign that is filled with lies, or the free energy machines that are hidden from the world...egh..I'm afraid they just ain't got the balls for it 

Cheers!

[violetlight]

film, through which BBC is telling us: See? It's all a hoax this new age junk...! There are no multiple realieties, OBE's, crop circles, UFO's...it's a load of cr@#!

nail on the head hannah!  great to meet you

incidentally, i bought another castaneda book today- the active side of infinity.  really looking forward to it, i laughed out loud so many times reading 'the art of dreaming'.

[violetlight]

Maybe there is even a third side of it all that has never seen the light, and was never mentioned in the film.

i believe there are 3 sides to every thing.  like a triangle.  the 2 sides, and then the base, upon which the two sides are supported and rest- uniting them, balancing them.

peace,

vl

[DH]

i believe there are 3 sides to every thing.  like a triangle.  the 2 sides, and then the base, upon which the two sides are supported and rest- uniting them, balancing them.

I agree but I usually have a devil of a time figuring out what the base is!  DH