Bush Sucks.

[Leyla]

Doug-  You're adorable.

[Frank]

Hmm, yes, I'm quite partial to the sound of bagpipes myself.

Scottish Highlands and bagpipes. If it were not so darned cold I could easily live in Scotland. Must have been Scottish in "another life" LOL. Not sure about wearing a skirt though. But, then again, I'm English so I guess there is a law against it where you are. Ha ha, an Englishman wearing a kilt. Kinda like the Pope reading from the Koran. :)  Anyhow, we are way off-topic so I'm gonna logoff now and give myself a severe moderating.

Good luck with Leyla, she sounds quite cute. Bit old for me though, he he he.

Yours,
Frank

[Leyla]

How would you know how old I am?

[Frank]

He he, she is feisty. Well, perhaps she may be my type after all. Doug you'd better step in quick. :)

Yours,
Frank

[Leyla]

[Hans Solo]

A NEW SPY AGENCY THAT AMONG OTHER THINGS WILL INCREASE SPYING ON AMERICAN CITIZENS!

Aptly named the NSS

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/30/national/w145228D02.DTL

Dont get excited though, Pres. Bush said it is for Freedom.  You do like freedom, right?

Han

[no_leaf_clover]

Hm... I say its about time to start buying firearms to have around the house.

[catmeow]

Hm... I say its about time to start buying firearms to have around the house.

I think, perhaps, it's time to move to a country where it is not a right (Bill of Rights, second amendment) for individuals to carry arms.

Having said that the Bill of Rights seems reasonable to me except for the right to carry arms.  We are in the UK, faced with the prospect of legislation which will remove fundamental freedoms such as those enshrined in the Bill of Rights.  Some freedoms threatened are freedom of speech and the right to trial by jury.  This is being rushed in under the stealthy guise of "anti-terrorism" legislation.  Never under-estimate the power of fear - politicians don't.

catmeow

[no_leaf_clover]

The reason the right to bear arms was made a part of the Bill of Rights, was so if there were any future problems government and people, the government would not dominate in weaponry and simply massacre those who opposed its rule. Even basic policemen over here all carry firearms, and it would hard to get very far in fighting for your freedom without them.

Moving out of the country is still an option, I suppose, but I haven't really made up my mind as far as that goes.

[catmeow]

The reason the right to bear arms was made a part of the Bill of Rights, was so if there were any future problems government and people, the government would not dominate in weaponry and simply massacre those who opposed its rule. Even basic policemen over here all carry firearms, and it would hard to get very far in fighting for your freedom without them.

Well it's a matter of much debate exactly why the 2nd Amendment was drafted.  If what you're saying is correct  then surely this reason is outdated now.  Massive changes have occurred since the Bill was written, and you haven't got a chance of opposing the government by force any more.

Arming yourself for personal protection against assault is a different argument.  And I do sympathise with you here.  But it can only succeed if you are better armed than the opposition.  But the opposition will just arm themseleves too.  It's a vicious esacalating cycle.  

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just would rather not have guns.

Gun legislation will happen here in the UK within the next 20 years. Many of our police are already armed, although we don't see it.  There is a growing gun culture, and now many shootings and killings.  It's just a question of time before carrying guns becomes legalised here.  It's hard to escape.

catmeow

[no_leaf_clover]

Yeah, I realized the problem would simply escalate about halfway through my last post. The authorities would certainly be less willing to use firearms against a mob of unarmed civilians, except maybe firearms loaded with tear gas or bean bags. But if you had a weapon, they'd have no problem shooting you down. Something tells me though, that on a personal basis there might come a time when it would be more than handy to have one around the house, just in case. Wouldn't hurt, I suppose.

[Leyla]

This would explain the unmarked van parked outside my window.

[RT]

The reason the right to bear arms was made a part of the Bill of Rights, was so if there were any future problems government and people, the government would not dominate in weaponry and simply massacre those who opposed its rule. Even basic policemen over here all carry firearms, and it would hard to get very far in fighting for your freedom without them.

Well it's a matter of much debate exactly why the 2nd Amendment was drafted.  If what you're saying is correct  then surely this reason is outdated now.  Massive changes have occurred since the Bill was written, and you haven't got a chance of opposing the government by force any more.

Arming yourself for personal protection against assault is a different argument.  And I do sympathise with you here.  But it can only succeed if you are better armed than the opposition.  But the opposition will just arm themseleves too.  It's a vicious esacalating cycle.  

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just would rather not have guns.

Gun legislation will happen here in the UK within the next 20 years. Many of our police are already armed, although we don't see it.  There is a growing gun culture, and now many shootings and killings.  It's just a question of time before carrying guns becomes legalised here.  It's hard to escape.

catmeow

Catmeow,

I would like to enlighten you about your UK, Bobbies, and Guns.   I have had the great privilege in being an ambassador to 50 Bobbies every second summer that come to the US and meet their fellow police officers. over the past 10 years I have meet some wonder officers from the UK. We also meet in your country every other year to visit and exchange valuable information.  And in case your wondering us officers pay our own way over and vice versa.

The conference is the International Police Officers Association.  You are correct in that the UK is seeing more gun violence, but what you don't know and see is that it is attributed to the influx of Russian mafia, and other extremists. What you also are not able to see is that they don't care what laws you have and a criminal will carry a gun no matter what the consequences are because it gives them power. Laws were not written for criminals because they don't give a *hit about anything written on paper, going to jail, or dying in most cases. They don't think like you and I and have very little or no compassion. A gun gives a group the power to make whoever doesn't have a gun do what they demand.

I know it is a vicious cycle and the only real end is when we are all gone.  Many of your officers are dying because they are not well equipped, but like you said that is changing quickly.

In every area of the US that has allowed what is called a CCW or carry a concealed weapon permit to law abiding citizens the crime rate has dropped up to 59% in some areas.  

I don't have any answers to the cycle but I can tell you that it doesn't seem to be getting any better and I am glad the US has the 2nd amendment.

Remember if you think an officer is somehow going to protect you in a situation he has to be right there at that moment.  Most of the time police are only there to pick up the pieces and take a report. It is up to every individual to protect themselves first or if you are a pacifist then what I am telling you won't matter.  

There are many bad people in the world and sometimes good people have to hurt bad people to keep them at bay.

RT

[Frank]

Hmm, I always thought the great thing about the UK was the fact that we were moving to a total ban on guns. People carrying guns in the UK, it simply would not happen. All handguns were banned in, I forget the year exactly, but it was like 1995 or something. Even then it was illegal to carry a gun for protection.

It was only for people who belonged to places like gun clubs and for collectors. Now all that is strictly illegal. But you could not carry a loaded handgun on your person even when they were legal. It is a serious criminal offence in the UK. Anyone caught with a handgun about their person goes to jail.

The Russian Mafia, is this just not the Cold war in another guise? I mean, no disrespect, but you are speaking to people who actually live in the UK. Or at least I did until about 18 months ago. I'm not sure what the Russian Mafia are doing in the UK. There must surely be richer and far easier pickings elsewhere.

Yours,
Frank

[catmeow]

Frank, I didn't realise the law had changed, I thought it was still possible to get a firearms licence?  I thought farmers could carry shotguns? Prince Charles and all his toffs still certainly go out shooting grouse?  Perhaps I'm wrong, don't know.  But I agree that it is still seen as a serious offence.  I'd be interested for you to point me to the legislation you mentioned.  I just realised you said handguns.  Perhaps the law is different for shotguns and rifles.

One comment which I think I would like to change is the following:

Gun legislation will happen here in the UK within the next 20 years.... It's just a question of time before carrying guns becomes legalised here.

Frank, as you say the UK has a long tradition of resistance to carrying firearms, so perhaps citizens may not be able to carry them even within the next 20 years.  But the police I feel will be routinely armed within 20 years.

RT, I hear what you say and don't really disagree.  I agree that legislation is laughed at by hardened criminals, who just ignore it.  But I still feel unease at legislation allowing everyone to carry guns.  A friend of mine is a regular vistor to the US where she has many friends.  She knows of one so-called respectable citizen who gets his guns out and shoots his mouth off, saying what he's going to do whenever he has an argument with somebody.  It's scary.

Yeah, guns might protect us from criminals but they won't protect us from ourselves.  I'd feel safer without them.  But that's a personal thing and I respect your viewpoint.  I'm not a pacifist, but I'd also rather not shoot someone if I could avoid it.

BTW, Much of UK gun culture seems to be youth gang culture, where carrying a gun makes you "cool" and respected.  The gang culture thing is getting steadily worse.  We do also have a problem as you say with imported Eastern block crime too.   This is all getting steadily worse and this is why I feel the police will be armed within 20 years.

catmeow

[Makaveli]

I'm against gun control it seems that banning guns and gun control only makes crime worse while less restrictive gun laws seems to be related to reduced crime rates.  Disarming citizens gives both criminals and the government more power over law abiding people.  The murder capitol Washington D.C. is an example of how much worse crime rates get when guns are banned while areas in the US with the least restrictive gun laws tend to have the lowest crime rates.  Allowing things like concealed carry is a good deterrent of crime.  

I understand that some people aren't comfortable with guns and that's fine but I think people who choose to should be allowed to have firearms for self-defense and other purposes like target shooting.  In the United States guns are used much more often in self-defense then they are used to take lives but we mostly hear about the misuses of guns in the news.  Most instances of self-defense with guns end without violence.    

I feel safer carrying a gun since it's nice to have just in case of a life threatening situation.  I like the saying "it's better to have a gun and not need it then to need a gun and not have it".  Chances are that I will never a gun to protect myself then there will be no harm done with me carrying a firearm, but it's nice to have since there is a lot of crime and many possible situations were having a gun could be very useful.                            

We certainly can't rely on cops for protection so having a gun is a good option.  Guns really aren't the problem crime is a social problem with those who are willing to hurt others.

[RT]

The Russian Mafia, is this just not the Cold war in another guise? I mean, no disrespect, but you are speaking to people who actually live in the UK. Or at least I did until about 18 months ago. I'm not sure what the Russian Mafia are doing in the UK. There must surely be richer and far easier pickings elsewhere.

Yours,
Frank

No disrespect taken.  The UK has allot less violent crime than the US for sure, but with the advent of many countries economies breaking down criminals come to the countries with a healthy economy. It is basic criminology.

Actually I was only giving the Russian mafia as one example.  And no the UK is a great place to run Prostitution, Drugs and extortion rings, if they are not dealing drugs directly it is one of there largest hub next to the US.

If you take away all the guns from the law abiding citizens the only people left that have the guns will be the criminals.

Again just take a minute and think about it.  What do they have to lose?  Answer is nothing in almost all cases.

I am not trying to scare anyone hear, but just present the facts that I have heard. My whole point was to being light to the fact that the UK is having a rise in gun related crimes in the past 10 years, even though it might not be talked about publicly.

In the greater picture I would much rather take a chance practicing law enforcement in the UK than the US, because of the odds of dying in the US are much greater.

RT

[RT]

A friend of mine is a regular vistor to the US where she has many friends.  She knows of one so-called respectable citizen who gets his guns out and shoots his mouth off, saying what he's going to do whenever he has an argument with somebody.  It's scary.

Yeah, guns might protect us from criminals but they won't protect us from ourselves.  I'd feel safer without them.  But that's a personal thing and I respect your viewpoint.  I'm not a pacifist, but I'd also rather not shoot someone if I could avoid it.

BTW, Much of UK gun culture seems to be youth gang culture, where carrying a gun makes you "cool" and respected.  The gang culture thing is getting steadily worse.  We do also have a problem as you say with imported Eastern block crime too.   This is all getting steadily worse and this is why I feel the police will be armed within 20 years.

catmeow

The person that talks a big game is using just doing that talking. I listen to allot of these idiots rant.  These are the kind of idiots that shoot themselves in the foot literally. And the bigger gun they have or larger collection they have seems to be an extension of their male anatomy.
They are mostly hot air.

And yes the UK bobbies will be armed very shortly. The reason behind this is they have to call for guns to be brought to them in times of trouble.  This takes a OIC or approval from a head of the department, then the guns are driven to where the altercation is occurring. This is where I feel for the UK police.

Please don't be intimidated by guns they are only one means of harming someone. Guns make a big bang and scare people, but people often forget that there are many other ways to be mortally wound that are often forgotten.

As long as there are people in the world that are power hungry there will be the means to intimidate good human beings. The UK is a great place to live and will in my opinion be much better crime wise than the US could ever dream to be. So be proud of where you live, but always question the government.

Respectfully,

RT

[no_leaf_clover]

Wow. This topic has had a huge range of mini-topics so far, lol.

It's true that less gun control deters crime. A city in George actually passed a law a while back requiring all residents to purchase a firearm to have around the house. Immediately, the crime rate dropped something like 80%. When criminals know the person they're about to mess with has a gun, or even might have a gun, they're obviously going to be a lot less hasty to try something. I'm sure burglaries became much rarer in that part of Georgia after that law passed. Maybe that's something unique to the US, but over here it works.

[OrionsDream]

Thats soooo horrible. To solve the crime rate, we must require ppl to own guns!!!
What kinda world is this!!

[catmeow]

RT, Makaveli and no_leaf_clover

Well I hear what you are all saying, namely that allowing ordinary citizens the chance to defend themselves deters crime, because these people are then no longer sitting duck lame targets.  Yep that strikes a chord with many people in the UK I can tell you.  The general feeling amongst the public here is that we should have the right to defend ourselves, by force or lethal force if necessary, without risk of prosecution.

But regarding guns and the UK, I think our different viewpoints stem from our different national histories (bear with me!):

At the moment the vast majority of crime in the UK does not involve firearms.  If firearms were legalised they would become easy for everyone to get hold of and then the vast majority of crime in the UK would involve guns.  This is not what we want!

But you have a different history in the US.  Nationally, you have always had guns, so you've always had gun crime, and you've always had petty crime involving guns.  At the moment, the UK doesn't have this situation.  However, legalising guns would then cause an irreversible switch to the same gun-society you are used to.

That's basically why there is such resistance to firearms here.  We don't want to make that switch.

You are probably correct in saying that "levelling the playing field" so that criminals no longer have an unfair advantage reduces the crime rate.  But at the moment our "playing field" is still fairly level, although it is beginning to tilt!

If you agree with this analysis, then I think we probably actually agree with each other more than we realise.

catmeow

[catmeow]

Thats soooo horrible. To solve the crime rate, we must require ppl to own guns!!!
What kinda world is this!!

Good point....

[RT]

Thats soooo horrible. To solve the crime rate, we must require ppl to own guns!!!
What kinda world is this!!

The word is chaotic world where the power hungry keep the chaos in perpetuation and view kindness and love as a weakness to exploit.

And rule by instilling fear in the masses.

RT

[Frank]

Catmeow:

Shotguns can still be owned, yes, but they are subject to licensing and strict controls as to their use and storage. It is handguns that are banned and I think any kind of rifle that shoots bullets. UK firearms legislation is perhaps the strictest in the world. There is now in the UK a mandatory minimum of 5-years imprisonment for anyone convicted of carrying an illegal firearm. And that is simply carrying the firearm regardless of whether it is loaded or not, or what its intended use is.

As regards the general point:

Taking account of the above, I cannot ever forsee a situation in the UK where it is legal for the general populace to carry an armed weapon. Note: It is a criminal offence in the UK for any ordinary person to carry a weapon for the purposes of self-defence of ANY description.

Hand guns were banned relatively recently. So it is not like they have always been banned and now certain elements in society are steadily beginning to campaign for their legalisation. It was elements of British society that were calling them to be banned that eventually led to their banning and the prison terms get longer as time goes on. Like I say, there is now a mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years that was introduced fairly recently. I think that is for people 21 years and over and there is a lower term for juveniles.

But again, even when they were legal it was still a serious criminal offence to actually carry a weapon whether armed or not for the purposes of self defence. Only people who belonged to a licensed gun club could transport the weapon to and from the establishment, but there were strict regulations on how this should be done. Of course, all this is now strictly illegal.

Yours,
Frank

[RT]

Frank,

So what are you trying to say?

Is it illegal to carry a handgun in the UK?  


Regards,

RT