Crop Circles

[runlola]

 

[nakiannu]

that irritates the heck out of me how anyone could seriously attribute these perfect, intricate crop patterns to weather anomalies. When was the last time a random brief hailstorm dropped a pile of hailstones that just happened to look like a perfectly round smiley face? It's about as likely.

Sure, some of them are man-made, but SOME OF THEM AREN'T! and they're not made by random acts of nature either. Beyond that, who knows for sure? I'm quite curious though..

[Sasuke]

Personally? I don't think it's aliens. I do, however, think it might be spirit-work, or messages from the dead. *shrug* That seems much more likely to me.

[Stillwater]

well, one cannot rule out sophisticated natural causes- like the complex and perfect geometry of molecules, the lattice-work of an ice crystal, or the perfect symmetry of a snowflake- nature has proven it is capable of replicating micro-structures into macro-structures, although I am not sure what kind of wheathor pattern could create perfect geometry... ionic burst seem a good candidate, based on the radioactivity of the sites, as well as the the method in which the grain is melted-down, but still that seems far too organized for so many particles....

I would not rule out any number of para-normal influences, alien intelligencs included, but I am also sure it would be a mistake at this point to attribute this peculiar phenomenon to either the natural forces or otherwise, as not enough info exists to solidify one argument to the exclusion of all others.

[Nick]

Linda Moulton Howe's website Earthfiles.com has a huge amount of information on crop circles. This woman has written a number of well regarded books on the subject as well. If you're not yet familiar with her work, you can reach the Earthfiles website HERE[/b][/color]

[nakiannu]

it's aliens. and by alien I mean entities who are either not native to this planet or not native to this dimension (or both). We have found new Euclidean geometric theorems in some crop formations even..

What gets me is just staring at these things asking what the hell they are trying to say!  It's kind of like staring at words in a foreign language hoping that if you stare hard enough, suddenly they'll make sense... which is almost as pointless as opening your refrigerator and staring inside.... when you already know exactly what's in there....  as if suddenly, magically, a TURKEY is going to materialize or something... "ah HA! I knew if I just stared long enough, there would be a Turkey!!"
(haha)

[Stillwater]

There is always a change in the molecular structure thought to be caused by radiation or something unknown to earth. Would weather phenomena cause that?

Well, it certainly would not be any of the conventional weathor-entities which one might study, however an electromagnetic burst of some kind, probably caused by interactions between the sun and earth, could create an ionic fluctuation; the only thing needed to alter molecular structure is heat, and as long as our anomoly can produce that, we can account for the change in molecular structure

it's aliens. and by alien I mean entities who are either not native to this planet or not native to this dimension (or both). We have found new Euclidean geometric theorems in some crop formations even

an interesting possibility, and, at least from my perspective, quite possible, but we cannot say such things with utter certainty; nature displays geometric design as it suits her, as we can see in the hexagonal-shape of a water-crystal (ice), or the complex structures of a protein; I do not object to theorizing (that is what I am doing   ), but we have to be careful when we state a contested belief with utter absoluteness...

What I am saying is that I am open to the idea, but it would take proof- you do not know with certainty, unless they took you aboard their craft and walked you through the process, per se.

[Tombo]

I found the theory that nature creates this formations (I'm talking about the complex ones that do not seem to be faked) utterly absurd .  Nature can create some complex geometries but what weather phenomenon would change it's footprints on a yearly basis, almost never producing the same formation twice? never leave a unfinished formation? Never leave a unclear formation, always clear edges, unbroken stems,never been observed while happening? completely unknown to mankind? increasing in complexity over time? common? you guys must be kidding! There is no such thing in nature show me one thing in nature that has this attributes! I would bet 1000$ that you can not find such a thing.........

Alien, Human or some other intelligence

[Stillwater]

......never producing the same formation twice? never leave a unfinished formation? Never leave a unclear formation, always clear edges, unbroken stems,never been observed while happening? completely unknown to mankind? increasing in complexity over time? common? you guys must be kidding! There is no such thing in nature show me one thing in nature that has this attributes! I would bet 1000$ that you can not find such a thing.........

A diamond.


But I am not tying to prove that it is a natural work, but rather that one should not be singular in explanations regarding something no one is sure about. That is the definition of DOGMA, which has held man back for eons. We are trying to get over things like that, lol  

I am not saying an alien intelligence did not make them, but rather that we cannot be certain one did.

[Tombo]

No a Diamond does not met this criterion at all. You probably shouldn't forget that the diamonds you buy for a wedding ring are crafted/ground by mankind

I'm not dogmatic just reasonable IMO

[Stillwater]

No, actually I was referring to diamond crystal wrought within the earth- such an artifact indeed meets most of the above criteria in my opinion: they are always different, they are always smooth-edged, they are each singular, made outside of man's sight, increasingly complex with time, and what is "finished" or not is a matter of subjective interpretation.

And I did not say anyone here was dogmatic, lol- only the perspective of absolute certainty regarding a bit of information; whatever one calls un-yielding surity, it is a form of Dogma nonetheless.....

But this is an odd position I have been forced to defend, as I believe it is more than likely that another intellience formed them as well, lol; the only point which I have attempted to express over and over is that no one can be  sure.

[Tombo]

......never producing the same formation twice? never leave a unfinished formation? Never leave a unclear formation, always clear edges, unbroken stems,never been observed while happening? completely unknown to mankind? increasing in complexity over time? common? you guys must be kidding! There is no such thing in nature show me one thing in nature that has this attributes! I would bet 1000$ that you can not find such a thing.........

A diamond.


I do not think that diamonds in nature do have strict geometrical forms, definitely most of the time they don't, If they do they will always form the same configuration due to their atomar grid configuration.

So Diamond:

-usually forming same formation
- usually unlear geometric shape
-edges usually not sharpe
-the diamonds as such are not increasing in complexity if you will dig out a diamond in 1850 it will not be less complex then an other one you dig out 2050.

But of course your point is correct we can not rule out any option by 100% certitude. It could also be Santa Claus doing the circles

[Psan]

Bad weather makes crop circles...? LOL
Either he is blind or he is just joking.

And math geeks? What about the beautiful patterns made in India, where the villagers are illitrate and ride bullock carts, and have no idea what a choppers is.

Actually no one is investigating it, all are speculating. All you need is to set up infrared survellience cameras in say 100 chosen fields, and there is a fair chance that you can catch one in making within 2-3 years.

[Stillwater]

So Diamond:

-usually forming same formation
- usually unlear geometric shape
-edges usually not sharpe
-the diamonds as such are not increasing in complexity if you will dig out a diamond in 1850 it will not be less complex then an other one you dig out 2050.

But of course your point is correct we can not rule out any option by 100% certitude. It could also be Santa Claus doing the circles

The diamond example was not my idea of a universally accepted match, but any of those points could be argued either way based upon what one's bent was to believe; for example, in terms of thermodynamic entropy, the more material added, which can be understood as a funciton of time, the more possibility for novel and unique arrangement of particles; that was the angle from which I was judging "complexitiy", but it of course depends on your basic definitions of several terms, which, of course, are not universal, and should not be forced to be such.

I understnad your argument, but I think you understand mine too now, in that we can each agree that no one knows with certainty where they are coming from, despite the fact that most of us, myself included, believe that extra-terrestrial influences seem rather likely.

Bad weather makes crop circles...? LOL
Either he is blind or he is just joking.

no, not joking, lol-  only stating that there are alternative explanations, regardless of the apparent implausibility of these other answers.

PEACE!

[Tombo]

So Diamond:

-usually forming same formation
- usually unlear geometric shape
-edges usually not sharpe
-the diamonds as such are not increasing in complexity if you will dig out a diamond in 1850 it will not be less complex then an other one you dig out 2050.

But of course your point is correct we can not rule out any option by 100% certitude. It could also be Santa Claus doing the circles

The diamond example was not my idea of a universally accepted match, but any of those points could be argued either way based upon what one's bent was to believe; for example, in terms of thermodynamic entropy, the more material added, which can be understood as a funciton of time, the more possibility for novel and unique arrangement of particles; that was the angle from which I was judging "complexitiy", but it of course depends on your basic definitions of several terms, which, of course, are not universal, and should not be forced to be such.

I understnad your argument, but I think you understand mine too now, in that we can each agree that no one knows with certainty where they are coming from, despite the fact that most of us, myself included, believe that extra-terrestrial influences seem rather likely.

Bad weather makes crop circles...? LOL
Either he is blind or he is just joking.

no, not joking, lol-  only stating that there are alternative explanations, regardless of the apparent implausibility of these other answers.

PEACE!

Stllwater, wouldn't you say that in order to make progress in a matter it is not a good solution to say "Everything is possible" but rather pick the theories that make the most sense and dismiss those that don't make much sense? My point is that storm theory doesn't make much sense. It maybe true that all of the geometric figures that appear in crop fields appear in nature too (although I do not think so "alien face" etc) still that is no reason to assume that  a strom created them. It is true that all elements found in the Pyramids are found in nature too, still nobody would argue that the pyramids were build by storms. Storms happen in air, air behaves like a liquid it can create circles flows and vortexes and such, it can't create shapes like triangles etc. Have you ever seen a triangle storm? probably not, therefore it is quite illogical to see a triangle in a field and then say "probably created by a strom" IMO

About the Diamonds: What I meant was that the different formations grow more complex over time, not that one single formation grows more complex over time. Your argumentation with the diamonds talks about one single diamond, so no match.

Take care Tom

[Stillwater]

lol, I do not see why there is an issue....

but it is okay- I shall reiterate my explanation once more, in another form.

I think that you are confusing logical induction for deduction; I was not trying to argue that a storm, or any natural thing of the sort created crop circles, but rather, I was going from the specfic premises of uncertainty (WHICH CANNOT BE DENIED), and the fact that most aspects associated with crop circles (except their chemical structure change, which cannot be accounted for, but cannot be immediately blamed on extra-terrestrials), to the general conclusion that there are a number of explanations for how crop circles are formed.

Once again, I will state that I BELIEVE THAT EXTRATERRESTRIAL INFLUENCES ARE THE MOST LIKeLY CULPRIT.

But that said, the point I have been trying to make this entire time, lol, is that assumptions are dangerous. You speak of dismissing what seems unlikely, but 2000 years ago, flying vehicles were a mental impossibility; if we discard what seems conspicuously weak, then we very well may be discarding the truth, and reach an erroneous conclusion. I am in fair agreement with you all about what seems most likely, but assumptions are the enemy. Would you assume because a liquid has no color or smell that it is water, and deem it safe to drink? It might well be concentrated sulfuric acid, and you would NOT know that unless you either were in a laboratory, or tasted it.

So the idea is, I am not trying to support these pipe-dreams of explanations, but rather the idea that we do not know the real one.

And I think that is a neat little bit, Runlola- I am intrigued as to why it would be so small and in a seemingly obscure location....

MORE PEACE      

[Tombo]

Lol I see your point Stillwater, If we would have been talking face to face we probably would have discorved within 2 minutes that we have the same opinion. lol

You know I just feel sometimes we should decide sth. according to instinct and me instinct (as yours) tells me "forget the storms"

[Stillwater]

Indeed- it is good to know that you know that I know you know we are on the same page, if that makes any sense, lol.

Now that we have that straightened out, I will say that I think this phenomenon should be studied extensively, in order to understand what possible meanings the circles contain, if they do contain one. If an alien intelligence did want to contact us, it would be logical that they would have to resort to pictograms, and would have to make them in a form anyone of reasonable intelligence (their target audience) could eventually understand; but it is clear that neither you nor I are probably of the caliber to be studying them, as it would take a veritable epistemologist to truly take a balanced swing: I also fear that if we discovered what they may mean, that the discovery would remain obscure, and hence come to no avail. It would seem to me that the message would most likely be directed to the school of mathematics and physics, but that is only a guess.

[Stookie]

Stanley Messenger says that cropcircles are the consciousness of the plants in the field beginning to communicate (or something similar to that). Here's an article on it:

http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/GlastonburyArchive/messenger/sm-ccircles.html

and you can find more of his articles on cropcircles (and many other things) here:

http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/messenger.html

(Go down to "Cereology")

[knucklebrain1970]

Personally? I don't think it's aliens. I do, however, think it might be spirit-work, or messages from the dead. *shrug* That seems much more likely to me.

I think any being that can transport across the universe has better things to do than carving smiley faces in the face of this sorry asss planet.

Kevin