Proxy baptisms? This is the first I've heard of this and yet apparently its been going on for a while now. This is a good example of why any religious fundamentalism is bad. x.x
http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/050415/mormons.shtml
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Quote from: ShinobiHi nlc,
It IS quaint, but I'm not sure why it's bad - at worst, it's simple foolishness, and at best they might be really helping some folks in the here after. Where's the harm? Just curious.
Take care,
Shinobi
Personally, I rather thought it was stupid to the point of being hilarious, but I know I should dare not say that when there are Holocaust victims involved (which I wasn't aware of at first anyway).
But, I suppose digging up
anyone posthumously is pretty disrespectful, and for such reasons seems to just make it even
more disrespectful (arrogantly assuming your religion to be so right as to justify digging up the bodies of others).
Besides the total disrespect though, there's also potential emotional distress to living family. I would find it rather disturbing to learn a close relative's body had been dug up and messed with, but maybe that's just me. Besides that, like I said, I found it funny from being such a stupid thing to do. Strange mixed feelings from me, I guess.
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"stupid to the point of being hilarious"
My thoughts exactly.
No harm is done, and they are only wasting their time and money so no big deal. However, I didn't know Hitler was a Mormon :D
Han Solo
Nah, Hitler wasn't mormon, Ghengis Khan was. That's why he was so feared - the chinese lived in mortal fear of his pamphlets. :lol:
Hmmm...Buddha being posthumously baptised as a mormon?
Ok, so does that mean next time I see a monk in orange / yellow robes riding around near home on a pushbike I should pretend like I'm not home?
:wink:
James.
Quote from: ShinobiHey NCL,
Now I see your concern, but they're not desacrating a corpse. It's a proxy process - a name is forwarded to whomever is doing this, and they go through the baptismal process FOR the deceased. No one is dug up - that would be especially creepy.
So now I understand your concern. Thanks!
Shinobi
Ohhhhh lmao.
Yeah that would explain my concern. :D
btw thanks for making that clear for me. 8)
(http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/mad/1106.gif) I'll tell you a few things about the mormons...
A mentally disabled girl I "looked out for" as kids was taken in by Mormons after her mother died suddenly of a blood clot.
They told this grieving teenaged girl that her MOTHER was BURNING IN HELL, and would stay there until she could afford to pay for her to be posthumously baptised.
So this little mentally retarded girl scrubbed laundry and swept floors to raise the money, to pay to the Mormon church.
They also taught her of the "evils" of drinking sodas and wearing short sleeve shirts.
God it p*sses me off just thinking of it.
Another thing the Mormons are up to recently is taking their own teenaged boys and dumping them off on the side of the road like stray dogs.
The pervert mormon "Elders" want six or eight teenaged brides to themselves; so naturally good looking, fit, teenaged boys are their competition.
The local shelters are over run with these abandoned Mormon kids they call the "Lost Boys."
Girls, meanwhile, are given to a grown man soon as they start their first period. The shelters are also quite full of them too. Usually running away from forced marriages.
Usually when they pick up one of these starving, dirty, urchins they find they're so uneducated and don't even know how to read or write.
QuoteA mentally disabled girl I "looked out for" as kids was taken in by Mormons after her mother died suddenly of a blood clot.
They told this grieving teenaged girl that her MOTHER was BURNING IN HELL, and would stay there until she could afford to pay for her to be posthumously baptised.
So this little mentally retarded girl scrubbed laundry and swept floors to raise the money, to pay to the Mormon church.
They also taught her of the "evils" of drinking sodas and wearing short sleeve shirts.
God it p*sses me off just thinking of it
Evangelicals, or fundamentalist Muslims, would have probably done the same, although they would of told the girl that she was retarded because God is punishing her. These type of people suck.
QuoteAnother thing the Mormons are up to recently is taking their own teenaged boys and dumping them off on the side of the road like stray dogs.
The pervert mormon "Elders" want six or eight teenaged brides to themselves; so naturally good looking, fit, teenaged boys are their competition.
The local shelters are over run with these abandoned Mormon kids they call the "Lost Boys."
Girls, meanwhile, are given to a grown man soon as they start their first period. The shelters are also quite full of them too. Usually running away from forced marriages.
Usually when they pick up one of these starving, dirty, urchins they find they're so uneducated and don't even know how to read or write.
Wow.. these are some pretty strong claims. I think it would be best to provide some evidence, or at least some links, to back up this assertion.
Han
Er, not even close, Leyla. I live in Utah, I was raised Mormon. I can safely say not one of your assertions even approximates the truth.
Yeah, Leyla...I'm am in the same boat as Mactombs. All of the stuff you wrote is a bunch of crap.
Lol, it wasn't crap. It's apparently true.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0%2C12271%2C1505997%2C00.html
You probably should have read that a little closer NLC...let me quote a bit from the link you just posted.
"Many of these "Lost Boys", some as young as 13, have simply been dumped on the side of the road in Arizona and Utah, by the leaders of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (FLDS), and told they will never see their families again or go to heaven.
The 10,000-strong FLDS, which broke away from the Mormon church in 1890 when the mainstream faith disavowed polygamy..."
These aren't Mormons, they are FLDS...fundamentalist being the key distinction between the two.
Even if I had read more closely I wouldn't have picked that up. I know very little about the history of the Mormon church save its great influence on Utah's unique government and early movements for women's rights. If the Church of Latter Day Saints is a break-away of Mormonism, I don't see how that's any less Mormon than Lutheran is Christian.
QuoteI don't see how that's any less Mormon than Lutheran is Christian.
Or how Mormonism is any less Christian than Roman Catholic?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the official name of the church, not Mormon. Members like to shorten it to LDS, Mormon was given by people who called them that because of the name of their scripture. FLDS has a very important clue right at the beginning - F. Yes, the F word. Fundamentalists of any kind are flat-out kooks if you ask me.
Seriously, if there was a whole state of people like the FLDS things would be very, very different around here. And I sure wouldn't be sticking around to observe it ... Wait, hold on, my candle's burning out and I need to get Ramone to pedal a bit faster so this durn Internet don't go out on me again ...
I'd go along with that. It all fit's squarely in that "God protect us from religion" bracket.
About 10 years ago my wife's mother died on a car accident. A few days after the death some Mormons went around to her home, and started with the line that they were very sorry to hear about this tragedy, but at times like this it really is important to know about God.
Well, my wife and her father very nearly helped these two to personally meet their God! It was one of the tackiest of sales pitches. My wife still isn't sure how they found out about the death so quickly. She still has burning desires to let their tyres down if she sees their pusbikes parked somewhere near home.
As to Fundies, anybody here read Terry Pratchett?
Got a nice clip from the book Good Omens - a converstion between Aziraphale the angel and Crowley the demon:
Aziraphale: "Asteroid strike? Quite the fashion these days, I understand. Strike into the Indian Ocean, great big cloud of dust and vapor, goodbye all higher life forms."
Crowley: "Wow."
Aziraphale: "Doesn't bear thinking about it, does it."
Crowley: "All the higher life forms scythed away, just like that."
Aziraphale: "Terrible."
Crowley: "Nothing left but dust and fundamentalists."
:)
James.
Who would've guessed a bunch of Mormons from Utah would deny these aligations.
The "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is just another name for the "Mormon Church." They are a branch.
I have no problem backing up my claims. Here, take your pick!
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=mormon+%22lost+boys%22&btnG=Search+News
QuoteAs to Fundies, anybody here read Terry Pratchett?
Got a nice clip from the book Good Omens - a converstion between Aziraphale the angel and Crowley the demon:
Oh man, Terry Pratchett is great reading! I love the Discworld series, too. Good Omens was fantastic! It was such a boon to me when I read it, because it was in the years I was most heavily being ostracized for leaving the church.
QuoteWho would've guessed a bunch of Mormons from Utah would deny these aligations.
The "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" is just another name for the "Mormon Church." They are a branch.
I have no problem backing up my claims. Here, take your pick!
Maybe you need to increase your reading comprehension skills before making claims on written material. First, I'm not a bunch of Mormons. I clearly stated before in this very thread: "I was raised Mormon". Now, granted I didn't clearly state I was ex, but most people would pick up on the implication of my statement.
Yes, Googling the Internet yields far more accuracy about Mormons than actually asking an ex-Mormon living in Utah. We all know it's God's Truth if it's on the Internet. :roll:
[Edit] Leyla.
I said I was raised Mormon, I didn't say I was Mormon. Being that I was raised Mormon and at the time happen to be living in the "capital" of the LDS faith I would think I know a whole lot more about it than you. Do you notice anything about all those links you just pointed us to? Maybe the words FLDS and 10,000 strong...
Hey, that link that NLC sent yesterday had a few facts about FLDS down at the bottom of the page. You should probably go read that, but then again you will probably just skim it like you apparently do everything else and make-up whatever you want. Or better scenerio, you will continue to press your point and do an extensive search on the ever truth-telling internet and try to dig up some dirt on the LDS religion. At which point I will laugh at you for two reasons...One, you have put more effort into something so pointless than any intelligent person would ever think of doing. Two, because EVERY religion has dirt...even those like me, who claim no religion, have our skeletons.
So you are both claiming to be victims of "lying" news orginizations.
I am sorry that your personal bias prevents you from facing reality.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=mormon+%22lost+boys%22&btnG=Search+News
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Quote[Edit] Leyla.
Now now Ramone, we're not going to start making things personal are we?
Besides, it would probably surprise you to know just how intelligent she really is!
It's all about opinions, so lets play nice.
Mactoombs,
I was in a similar situation to you when I read Good Omens. It completely cracked me up. :D
Ditto to the Diskworld series. I just love Pratchett's take on things.
:)
James.[/quote]
I've edited out personal insults here... keep it civil guys!
nothing wrong with an argument but keep the decorum eh?
Doug
I stated clearly they are a "branch" of the Mormon church.
Similarly, there are "good" Moslems and "Fundamentalist" Moslems who blow things up. But they are both still Moslems.
Instead of "killing the messenger" perhaps you should take a drive down to one of these childrens shelters, prove to youself that the kids are real flesh-and-blood, not figments of the medias imagination, and then do what you can to help?
After all, they are "your own" people. Perhaps you can instruct them what "real" mormonism is all about.
Would that not be a more constructive use of your time, rather than calling me foul names?
QuoteI stated clearly they are a "branch" of the Mormon church.
No, they are not. They are condemned by the Mormon church.
QuoteInstead of "killing the messenger" perhaps you should take a drive down to one of these childrens shelters, prove to youself that the kids are real flesh-and-blood, not figments of the medias imagination, and then do what you can to help?
I don't know how to even begin to explain how delusional you are about the situation. Instead, why don't you come to Utah and see for yourself? Or you could always read more carefully when you do your research.
QuoteAfter all, they are "your own" people. Perhaps you can instruct them what "real" mormonism is all about.
How are they "my own" people? How many times do I have to say I am
ex-Mormon? Yes, they're my own people in the respect that they're human - and that's far more valuable kinship than religious lines. But as far as shelters filled with FLDS refugees like you seem to have an image of, this would never be the case. I'd be lucky to find any FLDS refugees if I scoured the entire state.
If any man espose a virgin and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent and if he espouse a second, and they are virgins and have vowed to no other man then he is justified; he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
But if one or either of the ten virgins after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery and shall be destroyed.
- Joseph smith, Founder of the Mormon Church, Doctrine and Covenants, 132:61-63
And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and clave unto my servant Joseph and to no one else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord, for I am the Lord God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
-Joseph Smith, Founder of the Mormon Church, Doctrine and Covenants, 132:54
Lol, there's much worse in the Old Testament even. All of these guys are nuts.
Yes, Leyla, those quotes are genuine. It's also interesting to read about the occult and masonic influences in the early teachings and creation of the church. In John Michael Greer's
Encylcopedia of the Occult his account of the origins of the church varies greatly from the one taught in Sunday school - Greer's is actually probably more accurate, too.
So, you're right about the church in the beginning - it was an eccentric cult probably not a lot different than the FLDS is now. I understand where the confusion could arise here - but the point is, the church then and the church now are quite different. Very hard to explain. But another example is the difference between the origins of Christianity in the catacombs, secretive and elitist, to today's Baptist congregation.
QuoteLol, there's much worse in the Old Testament even. All of these guys are nuts.
Yes, very true. And another example of how the meaning of scripture has changed for people early on to what it means to people now.
It's interesting to think how people who follow the actual meaning of scripture as it was originally meant are considered fundamentalists and off their rockers - which they are.
rofl,religions are funny
mactombs- I totally expected a ranting blow-up, and am surprised how level headed you're being.
What I'm trying to say is- this kind of thing is still going on, and not only among fundamentalist groups of Mormons, but among other Fundamentalist religious groups in the US as well. And denial won't make it any better.
You can't fix a problem until you first acnowledge there is a problem.
Yes, Mactombs is a level headed kind of guy...most of the time. I tend to be the more confrontational roommate. It's not too hard to get me riled up, as Mactombs knows all too well.
QuoteYou can't fix a problem until you first acnowledge there is a problem.
What problem? The only problem I see is people ranting about stuff they read from second hand news reports. The reporters there, only want to stir trouble and love the outcome of their idiocy. You're being sucked into the oldest news ploy on the planet: "say something controversial that will get people riled up then sit back and watch the fireworks".
This arguement is a statement of how little half of you in the argument know. Just because it's on the net, it doesn't make it true. Just because it was said by a news channel, doesn't make it true. Half the news we get these days is useless garbage anyway and everyone beleives it because its 'on TV'.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are the biggest contributors to welfare relief in the world. The members donate their OWN money to a welfare fund all the time and they're forever giving aid to countries that need it. They also have farms in which they grow things they can use for aid to give to other countries.
It's the boys'
choice to go on missions for 2 years sometime after they turn 18 and they pay for it out of their own pockets. They go because they want to, not because they have to. The LDS church is all about family and caring for others.
The FLDS are indeed condemed by the mainstream Mormon church and you'll probably find that it's them (FLDS) trying to deface the Mormans by practicing their 'revised' gospel.
There is nothing wrong with the Mormon church. If anyone is saying that, then go maybe you should visit their webpage.
There is not a nicer bunch than the Mormons, and true, bad apples do come along but there are bad apples in every religion, what about the Catholic priests molesting little boys? Ever heard of that happening in the Mormon church?
And as far as baptising by proxy goes, no one pays for it. The members pay ten percent of their gross income and that goes towards humanitarian aid, mission funding, temple funding etc...
People do their family history all by their selves and the Mormons don't baptise those whom the family doesn't want them to. I laughed when someone claimed the LDS church baptised Adolf Hitler. That's a laugh and half! And a lie.
Family history is important to the chuch and its mostly dead reletives whom are baptised by proxy. No one says, "yep, let's baptise...JF Kenedy, good bloke". As if! They need family records, permission from the family if the family is not part of their bloodline.
Half of you are getting reved up over nothing so chill out.
Even though their religion is strict, they're no more unusual then the next religion you don't understand. And fearing and hating something that you don't understand is simply stupid.
Andali
Quote from: Andali27QuoteYou can't fix a problem until you first acnowledge there is a problem.
There is not a nicer bunch than the Mormons, and true, bad apples do come along but there are bad apples in every religion, what about the Catholic priests molesting little boys? Ever heard of that happening in the Mormon church?
Even though their religion is strict, they're no more unusual then the next religion you don't understand. And fearing and hating something that you don't understand is simply stupid.
Andali
Religious people claim they are people of God, but that fact is most religions judge others and each other. Religions are hypocritical most of the time. Shame on them! Religions try to explain God, and the Metaphysical world with logic and that is just not possible. Faith is just that Faith you either have it or you don't.
Many people claim there religion is the correct one and the only way to God or Heaven, that is the biggest load of sh*t I have ever heard. Like give more money to us, donate your time to God, donate your life to God and do it by only following the words our religion has created and preaches. How arrogant! If God is the all powerful, loving God then he loves us all no matter what happens or what we do. People in most religions judge others to make themselves feel that they are more holy than those sinners they see. LOL!
I was told that make sure the one finger you are pointing with doesn't have 3 pointing back at you.
RT :D
It's interesting, the LDS church actually doesn't try to explain God.
Quote from: Andali27
There is not a nicer bunch than the Mormons, and true, bad apples do come along but there are bad apples in every religion, what about the Catholic priests molesting little boys? Ever heard of that happening in the Mormon church?
Andali
Judge orders Mormons to provide sex-abuse records
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon35.html
Abuse alleged in Mormon lawsuit
http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon200.html
LDS/Mormon
Legal cases and case studies
http://www.childpro.org/ldscases.htm
Child Abuse Cover-Up Costs Mormon Church $3 Million
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-05-2001/0001566613&EDATE=
Shall I go on?? There are many many more.
People only see what they want to see and never truly question.
As long as it works for you, fine, but always question authority it is our "God Given Right", even if the people are so called holy ones.
Every religion has bad apples and you can't condem a single one just because there's rubbish on the internet. Whether true or not, everyone has a right to express their opinions and keep and open mind.
Hey, Ken Jennings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Jennings) is a mormon. As far as I'm concerned that makes him Saint Jennings, patron saint of r0x0rs j00r s0x0rs. Forget the Pope! Put this guy on the canonization fast-track instead.
It's no use arguing with these people. No matter how many newspaper and television reports and interviews with the victims there are, they will say it's "all made up."
Which begs the question: Is there really a war in Iraq?
Quote from: TelosHey, Ken Jennings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Jennings) is a mormon. As far as I'm concerned that makes him Saint Jennings, patron saint of r0x0rs j00r s0x0rs. Forget the Pope! Put this guy on the canonization fast-track instead.
Strange that such an intelligent man would not see what a joke organized religion is.
Quote from: Andali27Every religion has bad apples and you can't condem a single one just because there's rubbish on the internet. Whether true or not, everyone has a right to express their opinions and keep and open mind.
Rubbish on the net? I think not. And this is not my opinion but Case Law in the US and public record in our legal system if you know where to look the Case law is free.
Complaint:
A $750 million civil suit was filed alleging the LDS Church covered up for a father committing sadistic incest with his children. The entire complaint is included. Read the facts of this egregious case:
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF RALEIGH COUNTY, WEST VIRGINIA
Plaintiffs,
Civil Action: Jane Doe, an infant, by her next friend and guardian, Rebecca Doe; and, Rebecca Doe, Individually;
VS.
Defendants
Raleigh General Hospital, a West Virginia Corporation d/b/a HCA Raleigh General Hospital;
and, HCA, Inc., A Delaware Corporation;
and, HCA - Hospital Corporation of America, A Delaware Corporation; and, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, an unincorporated religious association; and, The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a Utah Corporation; and, The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a Utah Corporation; and, Gordon B. Hinckley, in his capacity as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; and, Thomas S. Monson, in his capacity as First Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; and, James E. Faust, in his capacity as Second Counselor in the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints;
and, Boyd K. Packer, in his capacity as Acting President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints;
and, Merril J. Bateman, in his capacity as Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Lets get to the real point-
All I know is that the Beer in Utah sucks, lower alcohol %, because of the Mormons, and them using the government to shove their morals on everyone else. Shame on you Mormons, Shame on you. :Lol:
However, I live in a state that still has Blue Laws (cant buy alcohol on Sundays, etc), and there are not many Mormons here, so go figure. Glad we have separation of Church and State, however we need more (SEPERATION, not church OR State).
Han
QuoteAll I know is that the Beer in Utah sucks, lower alcohol %, because of the Mormons, and them using the government to shove their morals on everyone else. Shame on you Mormons, Shame on you. :Lol:
Only the beer in the grocery stores is lower %. You can still get the better beer at the liquor store. Utah liquor laws are, however, utterly ridiculous.
The only way to make things right is to make things more like Germany. We need beer in the workplace. German beer in the workplace. It's clearly an efficient start on making Utah right.
Hey- I just saw these people on TV! I was watching and apparently Dr.Phil has done two programs on them.
http://drphil.com/shows/show/479
http://drphil.com/shows/show/527
(Andali27 responds: "Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lyin' eyes?")
QuoteAndali27 responds: "Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lyin' eyes?"
I don't appreciate that jab. I said before, nobody's perfect, in fact, we're all so far from perfect it's rather amusing.
What I'm saying is "there's bad apples in every religion" and the LDS church is no exception to the rule.
You can't just pick on one religion just because it's different. That's not really fair.
Andali
LOL! Who said I picked one? You must not be familiar with my posts.
QuoteSomeone told me mormons believe when they die they become
a god of their own planet...Is that really their belief?
I don't know if it is cannon, but vaguely, yes. I tried to look up the answer on the official church site, but I couldn't find it.
Basically, if a couple has attained the highest degree of glory and so forth, eventually they become like god. That's the best I can answer without digging deeper than just my memory after all these years.
As a former Mormon myself, Im not really suprised to see this article. Proxy Baptisims are mormons way of trying to "save" their lost loved ones who wernt mormon themselves.
But when I was in 6th grade and did baptisims for the dead, it was for random people and no relatives what soever.
But ya, im appalled to the idea of the whole proxy baptisim things. Mormons will say that they are giving their relatives another option or a gift or another chance. To me, its just plain rude and makes me hate mormons more.
My 3 cents