R.E.M. Intrusion = OBE's and NDE's

[cainam_nazier]

Found this on www.foxnews.com


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191546,00.html

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'Out-of-Body' Spiritual Experience May Be Sleep Irregularity

Wednesday, April 12, 2006

By Salynn Boyles





It happened 32 years ago, but Kay Bjork is still able to vividly recall the near- death experience she had following emergency surgery to repair a fallopian tube that burst as a result of an undiagnosed ectopic pregnancy.

She remembers clouds of orange light, seeing everyone in the recovery room but feeling that they were looking through her, and having an intense moment of clarity.

"It was like having the question answered," says Bjork, who is now 70 and lives in Franklin, Tenn. "I'm not a religious person, but it was like I was given the answer, and my thought was, 'Of course, why didn't I think of that.'"

Bjork's story is remarkably similar to many others told by people who believe they have had near- death or out-of-body experiences. Now a new study offers a possible scientific explanation for this.

The REM Connection

Researchers from the University of Kentucky in Lexington found that people who report having a near-death experience are more prone to have also experienced blurring of their awake and sleep states -- a condition known medically as REM intrusion.

Clinical neuropsychologist Kevin Nelson, MD, and colleagues interviewed 55 people with a history of near-death experiences and twice as many people matched for age and sex with no such history.

Sixty percent of those who reported having had near-death experiences also reported at least one occurrence of their REM sleep state intruding into their awakened state, compared with only 24 percent of those without near-death experiences.

The findings are reported in the April 11 issue of the journal Neurology.

Near-Death Experiences and Stages of Sleep

Rapid eye movement (REM) sleep is the sleep stage during which dreaming occurs. REM sleep also involves paralysis of major muscles, accelerated respiration, and, as the name suggests, increased eye movement.

Common characteristics of REM intrusion include a sense of temporary paralysis upon awakening and visual or auditory hallucinations during the transition from sleep to being awake or the reverse.

"The brain switch that links REM sleep and wakefulness seems to be different in people who have had a near-death experience," Nelson tells WebMD. "Instead of passing directly between REM sleep and wakefulness, the brain switch in those people seems to be more likely to blend the two."

Nelson says many commonly reported features of near-death experiences are also associated with the REM state, including the feelings of being surrounded by light, being outside one's body, and of being conscious but unable to move.

Spiritual Influences

While the findings suggest that REM intrusion contributes to the phenomenon known as near- death experience, Nelson says he isn't trying to prove that spiritual influences aren't involved.

"We consider this research to be spiritually neutral," he says. "People who have had this experience report that it has great personal and spiritual meaning, and we don't mean to take away from that at all. We are simply focusing on the how of the experience and not the why."

University of Virginia professor of psychiatry Bruce Greyson, MD, has studied near-death experience for many years. He remains convinced that there is more to the events than medical science can explain.

"People who have had this experience do seem to be changed in very profound ways," he tells WebMD. "That is the most consistent thing that we hear, even more consistent than the phenomenon itself is the after-effect of feeling changed."

Bjork agrees that the experience was transforming.

"I had a very strong sense that I wanted to do everything perfectly from then on -- to read only important books and do something important with my life," she says.


By Salynn Boyles, reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

SOURCES: Nelson, K.R., Neurology, April 11, 2006; vol 66; pp 1003-1009. Kevin R. Nelson, MD, clinical neurophysiologist, professor of neurology, University of Kentucky, Lexington. Bruce Greyson, MD, division of personality studies, department of psychiatric medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville. Kay Bjork, Franklin, Tenn.

[jalef]

vary interesting, thanks for sharing!

this sounds good for most cases but whats about the ones where the brain was already dead? a dead brain cant produce REM intrusion i think...

[MisterJingo]

vary interesting, thanks for sharing!

this sounds good for most cases but whats about the ones where the brain was already dead? a dead brain cant produce REM intrusion i think...

Unless you can link to any evidence, all NDEs occur when the brain is alive. Most NDEs occur instantly after the incident (heart stopping, accident etc) and usually last a few minutes in objective time (the brain can happily survive with no oxygen without damage for 3+ minutes).
This was discussed in another thread, but those stating NDEs have occured during brain death (ie hours after the heart/breathing has stopped) never provided a link to any evidence or reports.
I've read a lot of NDE experiences, and every one occured moments after 'death'. None occured hours after body death (giving time for the brain activity to stop) - i'm not sure we've even got evidence of people being dead in normal conditions for hours and then being revived (can any clear this up?) - freezing doesn't count.

The brain doesn't stop functioning the second the heart or breathing stops, it can carry on processing information for quite a bit longer.

[Covelo]

vary interesting, thanks for sharing!

I've read a lot of NDE experiences, and every one occured moments after 'death'. None occured hours after body death (giving time for the brain activity to stop) - i'm not sure we've even got evidence of people being dead in normal conditions for hours and then being revived (can any clear this up?) - freezing doesn't count.

Why wouldn't freezing count?  Dead is dead, right?

[jalef]

oh sorry then i think i missunderstood something. i thought clinical death means that the brain is dead.

[Donal]

OK, the brain could be active but if consciousness exits the body, what value does the brain still being active hold? Consciousness is more important to this than the brain.

Also, they were right at the end of the article when they stated that NDE's have a profound experience on peoples lifes, indicating that there is somet spiritual element to it, and not just a neurological disorder.

[MisterJingo]

Why wouldn't freezing count?  Dead is dead, right?

Most cases of freezing and revival are due to the body being in almost deep hibernation state when froze rather than dead (although after a certain amount of hours revival would be impossible, likewise, below a certain temperature massive cell damage occurs so revival is not possible). Either way, to my knowledge there has not been a single case of a person having an NDE hours after death.

oh sorry then i think i missunderstood something. i thought clinical death means that the brain is dead.

No clinically dead means your heart and breathing has stopped. It's brain death when there is no surface brain activity (this would not be checked in circumstances which usually see the occurance of NDEs).

OK, the brain could be active but if consciousness exits the body, what value does the brain still being active hold? Consciousness is more important to this than the brain.

Also, they were right at the end of the article when they stated that NDE's have a profound experience on peoples lifes, indicating that there is somet spiritual element to it, and not just a neurological disorder.

I agree that they are a profound experience. And I agree that consiousness could be more important than the brain. But this is adesire or belief and not a known. I was simply pointing out that to date, every NDE and OBE has occured with an active brain - so we don' know if an active brain is somehow needed to perpetuate this state.
I'm not being stuborn on this issue for the fun of it. But I am not going to jump onto the back of fantastical beliefs without any evidence what-so-ever. And no, this is not a flaw. Every guru whose works I respect followed a similar philosophy - that is dropping everything which is a belief and starting from 'knowns' and workign from there.

[Reemya]

MisterJingo,

This won't really address all your reservations concerning the brain's role in NDEs—I don't know that it addresses my own—but I thought it added a slightly different perspective. A lot of this information depends on how much stock you put into the sources and their concept of clinical death immediately accompanied by "nil brain activity."

This information was found in a Reuters article from 2001 about the premise of the mind surviving the brain, as evidenced by NDEs.

"The studies are very significant in that we have a group of people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time when their brains are shown not to function," Sam Parnia, one of two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in England who have been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs), told Reuters in an interview.

In that the doctor actually says, "their brains are shown not to function" I'm guessing that brain activity was monitored in some way. While it may be debatable whether core activity could perhaps still be present I'm not sure that alone could account for clear, lucid thoughts that were reported.

"We need to do much larger-scale studies, but the possibility is certainly there" to suggest that consciousness, or the soul, keeps thinking and reasoning even if a person's heart has stopped, he is not breathing and his brain activity is nil, Parnia said.
<<snip>>
"With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain is so severe it stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect profound memory loss before and after the incident," he added.

I found this part interesting due to the doctor stating, "it stops the brain completely." Is this an accurate statement, scientifically speaking? I'm not sure. If we take the statement at face value, it would seem to indicate a better chance for NDEs being beyond the brain.

Just something else to think about.

Here is the link for the entire Reuters article: http://www.boston.com/news/daily/28/brain.htm

[MisterJingo]

MisterJingo,

This won't really address all your reservations concerning the brain's role in NDEs—I don't know that it addresses my own—but I thought it added a slightly different perspective. A lot of this information depends on how much stock you put into the sources and their concept of clinical death immediately accompanied by "nil brain activity."

This information was found in a Reuters article from 2001 about the premise of the mind surviving the brain, as evidenced by NDEs.

"The studies are very significant in that we have a group of people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time when their brains are shown not to function," Sam Parnia, one of two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in England who have been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs), told Reuters in an interview.

In that the doctor actually says, "their brains are shown not to function" I'm guessing that brain activity was monitored in some way. While it may be debatable whether core activity could perhaps still be present I'm not sure that alone could account for clear, lucid thoughts that were reported.

"We need to do much larger-scale studies, but the possibility is certainly there" to suggest that consciousness, or the soul, keeps thinking and reasoning even if a person's heart has stopped, he is not breathing and his brain activity is nil, Parnia said.
<<snip>>
"With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain is so severe it stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect profound memory loss before and after the incident," he added.

I found this part interesting due to the doctor stating, "it stops the brain completely." Is this an accurate statement, scientifically speaking? I'm not sure. If we take the statement at face value, it would seem to indicate a better chance for NDEs being beyond the brain.

Just something else to think about.

Here is the link for the entire Reuters article: http://www.boston.com/news/daily/28/brain.htm

Hey Reemya,

thanks for posting this. It definatly is interesting. I'll have a look into this study to see if I can get any more information, as they don't actually state how long the patient was clinically before revival.
And scientifically speaking, the brain does not immediately stop functioning when clinical death occurs. What usually happens is that as time goes on, the brain is starved of oxygen and more erratic surface brain activity seems to occur as the brain is slowly damaged.
I have read of evidence that deep brain activity can be recorded for a significant time after death.

[Reemya]

MisterJingo,

I've been looking into this further since posting the info above. I found this link to an article written by the doctor mentioned in the Reuters piece, Dr. Sam Parnia. http://www.scimednet.org/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

It rehashes some of the other info, but adds a bit about the theory concerning the lack of brain function in the cardiac arrest patients, and how they determined that.

Cardiac arrest patients are a subgroup of people who come closest to death. In such a situation an individual initially develops two out of three criteria (the absence of spontaneous breathing and heartbeat) of clinical death. Shortly afterwards (within seconds) these are followed by the third, which occurs due to the loss of activity of the areas of the brain responsible for sustaining life (brainstem) and thought processes (cerebral cortex). Brain monitoring using EEG in animals and humans has also demonstrated that the brain ceases to function at that time. During a cardiac arrest, the blood pressure drops almost immediately to unrecordable levels and at the same time, due to a lack of blood flow, the brain stops functioning as seen by flat brain waves (isoelectric line) on the monitor within around 10 seconds. This then remains the case throughout the time when the heart is given 'electric shock' therapy or when drugs such as adrenaline are given until the heartbeat is finally restored and the patient is resuscitated. Due to the lack of brain function in these circumstances, therefore, one would not expect there to be any lucid, well-structured thought processes, with reasoning and memory formation, which are characteristic of NDEs.

Now, again, there may be room to question the science behind these claims of no brain activity. Ultimately I think one of our biggest problems is that we are still largely ignorant to the full workings of the human brain. And not all researches are on the same page with it. It's amazing that with so much progress in other areas of medicine, the brain has managed to elude scientists so well--what we know of the brain pales next to what we don't know.

Namaste,
Reemya

[MisterJingo]

MisterJingo,

I've been looking into this further since posting the info above. I found this link to an article written by the doctor mentioned in the Reuters piece, Dr. Sam Parnia. http://www.scimednet.org/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

It rehashes some of the other info, but adds a bit about the theory concerning the lack of brain function in the cardiac arrest patients, and how they determined that.

Cardiac arrest patients are a subgroup of people who come closest to death. In such a situation an individual initially develops two out of three criteria (the absence of spontaneous breathing and heartbeat) of clinical death. Shortly afterwards (within seconds) these are followed by the third, which occurs due to the loss of activity of the areas of the brain responsible for sustaining life (brainstem) and thought processes (cerebral cortex). Brain monitoring using EEG in animals and humans has also demonstrated that the brain ceases to function at that time. During a cardiac arrest, the blood pressure drops almost immediately to unrecordable levels and at the same time, due to a lack of blood flow, the brain stops functioning as seen by flat brain waves (isoelectric line) on the monitor within around 10 seconds. This then remains the case throughout the time when the heart is given 'electric shock' therapy or when drugs such as adrenaline are given until the heartbeat is finally restored and the patient is resuscitated. Due to the lack of brain function in these circumstances, therefore, one would not expect there to be any lucid, well-structured thought processes, with reasoning and memory formation, which are characteristic of NDEs.

Now, again, there may be room to question the science behind these claims of no brain activity. Ultimately I think one of our biggest problems is that we are still largely ignorant to the full workings of the human brain. And not all researches are on the same page with it. It's amazing that with so much progress in other areas of medicine, the brain has managed to elude scientists so well--what we know of the brain pales next to what we don't know.

Namaste,
Reemya

Regarding no brain stem activity, this would be expected in conditions where there is no breathing or heartbeat (the brain stem is what maintains these functions). I'm interested inn their claims of cerebral cortex losing all activity within ten seconds of the heart stopping, as this is something I have not come across before.
I agree with you fully regarding our lack of knowledge of the brain. Until we know how the brain functions on all levels, I don't think we will have any 'final' answers on this issue.
Recently I have been reading up on the latest research into the brain, and it really has made me question some of my most innate beliefs about the mind and if it is truely independant of the brain. It's not easy to be faced with evidence which pulls down entire belief structures, and it's implications can be scary (I was quite depressed for a few days). But in the end, I want the truth rather than what I want to be the truth. The reason I mention this is to show I am not being a sceptic for the sake of it, or trying to validate my beliefs with scienctific data. I am happy (figuratively speaking) to drop even long held beliefs in my search for what 'I' actually am.

[mactombs]

"Instead of passing directly between REM sleep and wakefulness, the brain switch in those people seems to be more likely to blend the two."

What I'd like to know is, how to we get in and monkey with this brain switch he's talking about (I mean non-invasive)? Where is the switch? What is the switch?  I wonder if it's possible to find a way to click it off and on by force of will. I think so, considering TMI participants changing focus levels while awake. But how?

[cainam_nazier]

mactombs,

Being that it seems more and more not to be so much a case of physical brain activity but that of consciousness there is no one way to do it.  It's like driving a car.  The car being consciousness and the car being the body.  You can teach a hundred people all how to drive.  Give each and every person the same exact tips, pointers, and knowledge on how to do so.  But each and every one of them will drive a little different even if they are all driving the same exact physical vehicle.  The element of consciousness changes ever so slightly the way each and every person thinks, reacts, and does.

At best we can ask for a handful of different techniques to do this but not one single thing will work for every one.  It's like projecting and lucid dreaming, there are so many here that know how.  They know what must be accomplished, but the path there is different for almost everyone.