Scientists remove Monkey's head, attach it another's decapitated body

[Stillwater]

...a group of scientists from Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine in Cleveland, Ohio,[4] led by Robert J. White, a neurosurgeon and a professor of neurological surgery who was inspired by the work of Vladimir Demikhov, performed a highly controversial operation to transplant the head of one monkey onto another's body. The procedure was a success to some extent, with the animal being able to smell, taste, hear, and see the world around it. The operation involved cauterizing arteries and veins carefully while the head was being severed to prevent hypovolemia. Because the nerves were left entirely intact, connecting the brain to a blood supply kept it chemically alive. The animal survived for some time after the operation, even at times attempting to bite some of the staff.[5] In 2001, Dr. White successfully repeated the operation on a monkey.[6]...

From:
^ "Frankenstein fears after head transplant". BBC News. April 6, 2001. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1263758.stm. Retrieved January 5, 2010. 



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I don't know what to say about this one...

Although this was last performed a decade ago, I don't think it was ever really publicized, and I think that the general population deserves to be aware of procedures like this.

I remember when I was in grade school, if you wanted to somehow involve an animal in your science-fair experiment, such as placing a mouse in a maze, or allowing your dog to try various kibble brands, it literally involved in excess of 30 pages of paperwork to ensure ethical treatment of the animal in question. I have a feeling that this group in Case was not particularly coresponding with any ethics commity or commision, as I cannot imagine who might have given them permission to perform an experiment like this. I must say that I am very disappointed to hear of this.

[mo]

i'm almost sure that the same stuff is being done to humans. dna, cloning, weird transplantations, you name it. terrifying.

[Stillwater]

From what I read, the team involved did want to try same operation on 2 human subjects, although I can't see why. Needless to say, they haven't been granted the option yet, as far as I know.

[zareste]

yep, it's done to humans too. If people make it okay to do it to animals, someone will make it okay to do it to them

[caterpillarwoman]

even at times attempting to bite some of the staff.

Well, wouldn't you in that situation? 

[Valkry]

Disgusting, just disgusting. We can only hope that ALF took the proper action against these monsters. Haha.

[SkepticBoy]

I just wanted to throw in my thoughts on this: couldn't this experiment be proof that the soul does not exist? if you think about it, if there is a soul and the physical body (of an animal or a person) is mutilated enough so the organisms body should die under normal circumstances, then shouldn't the animals (or persons) soul had left the body after the decapitation? and the head be lifeless regardless of it being fixed correctly onto another alive body?

While biologically it can survive, if the soul was real and it left because the physical body died, wouldn't the severed head die anyway - because the soul or the energy would had left?

Just some views on this. You could argue animals don't have souls I guess but still just some ideas.

[kurtykurt42]

All animals have souls.

The majority of the primary energy centers are located below the head. If the majority of them are intact, then I believe you will survive. Although, you might be one messed up monkey.

[Stillwater]

Well, I am not sure of that last argument Kurt, since by most definitions, a person having been decapitated is dead after a few minutes, if not instantly by most standards, so I would say that "life" is probably not tied to the number of intact energy centers, but rather the ability of the biological body to continue proper metabolism, ie.: growth, energy use, integration of new matter and excretion of waste matter, building and breaking down of compounds. When there is no oxygen supply to feed this metabolism, or no direction of the processes through proper nerve impulses in the autonomous system, then metabolism ceases, and biological life.

I just wanted to throw in my thoughts on this: couldn't this experiment be proof that the soul does not exist? if you think about it, if there is a soul and the physical body (of an animal or a person) is mutilated enough so the organisms body should die under normal circumstances, then shouldn't the animals (or persons) soul had left the body after the decapitation? and the head be lifeless regardless of it being fixed correctly onto another alive body?

I think the operative word here is "should". Should implies a concept like "ought to", and it is pretty hard for anyone to say what such a thing as a soul ought to do, since despite what some may think one way or the other, no one really knows anything particularlly definitive about souls, and so no one is really qualified to say how a soul should behave in a given situation. That said, I don't think it is possible to disprove the existence of souls by stating that they did not behave as expected, and this is also quite counter-intuitive, since you would be assuming knowledge of the behavior of something you simaltaneously were asserting did not exist. In other words, this does not seem to be the kind of experiment formulated in such a way as to yield data useful for backing up assertions like the one you made.


Sometimes I feel like my function here is shooting down arguments, lol... I really don't mean it, honest

[kurtykurt42]

Well, I am not sure of that last argument Kurt, since by most definitions, a person having been decapitated is dead after a few minutes, if not instantly by most standards, so I would say that "life" is probably not tied to the number of intact energy centers, but rather the ability of the biological body to continue proper metabolism, ie.: growth, energy use, integration of new matter and excretion of waste matter, building and breaking down of compounds. When there is no oxygen supply to feed this metabolism, or no direction of the processes through proper nerve impulses in the autonomous system, then metabolism ceases, and biological life.

I figured someone might say something like that... Obviously if you get your head chopped off your're a goner. Anyone who's ever seen Highlander knows this. What I meant to say was, if they perform a careful surgery and attach someone elses head to your (missing) head the surgery might be successful due to the fact that there are only two primary energy centers in your head. 

[Stillwater]

I don't know... I think it is probably not a numbers game like that. The way I tend to view the whole body-consciousness interface relationship, is that a biological body can be an appropriate seat of consciousness provided it can remain homeostatic and metabolize. I would hypothesize that the consciousness ceases to be associated with it as soon it ceases to biologically maintain itself, and therefore ceases to be a responsive interface peripheral. But again, this is all speculation- who really knows?

[kurtykurt42]

There are over a million cases of people getting heart transplants that inherit the other persons memories / emotions. Which probably means that when you transfer an organ (or a head) to another body, those same primary energy centers come too. Which means you will be in for quite an experience.

[Uraotoko]

I have 2 questions

1. Is that picture from the real procedure or taken from an horror movie?
2. The connection to the other body consists only on veins and arteries?
If its true, then it proves nothing. Is virtually the same than connecting someone to a machine that keeps it alive... after all the body is a biochemical machine. All they did is keep the blood flowing, that could be done with any device.

Now, if there were to connect all the nerves of the head to the body, that would be a totally different story...

I just wanted to throw in my thoughts on this: couldn't this experiment be proof that the soul does not exist? if you think about it, if there is a soul and the physical body (of an animal or a person) is mutilated enough so the organisms body should die under normal circumstances,

Well, the way i see it, the soul (or "conciousness") is located in the head, or near the head. And the experiment consisted in carefully reconnecting the severed veins and arteries while they were chopping off the head, so it never "died and came back to life", they kept it alive at all times.

then shouldn't the animals (or persons) soul had left the body after the decapitation? and the head be lifeless regardless of it being fixed correctly onto another alive body?

It eventually died (and the soul finally left the head, thankfully!) because of the poor conditions the head was kept. Im sure you could keep the head alive in more appropiate conditions.

[Xanth]

I have 2 questions

1. Is that picture from the real procedure or taken from an horror movie?
2. The connection to the other body consists only on veins and arteries?
If its true, then it proves nothing. Is virtually the same than connecting someone to a machine that keeps it alive... after all the body is a biochemical machine. All they did is keep the blood flowing, that could be done with any device.

Now, if there were to connect all the nerves of the head to the body, that would be a totally different story...

Well, the way i see it, the soul (or "conciousness") is located in the head, or near the head. And the experiment consisted in carefully reconnecting the severed veins and arteries while they were chopping off the head, so it never "died and came back to life", they kept it alive at all times.

It eventually died (and the soul finally left the head, thankfully!) because of the poor conditions the head was kept. Im sure you could keep the head alive in more appropiate conditions.

I couldn't agree more.
There's more to life than just "blood flow".
There will be no soul there.  No spirit.

[Fourthdimension]

i also agree that the monkey never died cause of the nervous but tied in the end cause of the poor condition

I agree that consiousnesss is in the brain and so i presume that where the soul is too.

mabye kkurt the primary centers are nt physical. as i dont see them with my physical eyes so how can they be physical. mabye they are connected to the soul. mabye our primary centers are connected to the soul and not the body

so then mabye the new monkeys body was not properly connected to the soul via the charka and could nt provide energy and so died

are mabye the charkas were physically on each body and that is why the monkey dies because lack of energy via the centers

just my two cent

[kurtykurt42]

mabye kkurt the primary centers are nt physical. as i dont see them with my physical eyes so how can they be physical. mabye they are connected to the soul. mabye our primary centers are connected to the soul and not the body

The primary energy centers [chakras] are your direct connection to your soul, which lives in higher density levels. These vibrational levels of energy exist at a frequency faster / higher than matter.

The brain acts as a processor (similar to a computer CPU) but a CPU alone won't let you do very much with the computer...

You will also need memory / emotions (RAM / HD), which are not stored in your processor (brain). And since your consciousness is the culmination of your individual thoughts / memories and emotions, it's only logical to assume that the brain is only one small piece of the whole.

[Stillwater]

1. Is that picture from the real procedure or taken from an horror movie?
2. The connection to the other body consists only on veins and arteries?
If its true, then it proves nothing. Is virtually the same than connecting someone to a machine that keeps it alive... after all the body is a biochemical machine. All they did is keep the blood flowing, that could be done with any device.

I believe it is from the actual procedure, although it does look very grotesque, and the lighting is dramatic, lol.

And yes, the decapitated body was essentially a life support system for the 2nd head- only contributing blood. Nerves are near impossible to reconnect.

It probably died of immuno-rejection. The same thing will often kill newly transplanted individuals.

[Xanth]

i also agree that the monkey never died cause of the nervous but tied in the end cause of the poor condition

I agree that consiousnesss is in the brain and so i presume that where the soul is too.

What if consciousness doesn't "reside" in the brain, but is only linked to the brain?
I mean, people have been pronounced "brain dead" for all intents and purposes... yet they can fully experience a NDE.
Then they return and recant that experience to us.

That says to me that the brain isn't where our consciousness resides, only linked to.

As you said though... only my two cents. 

[kurtykurt42]

For once Xanth and I actually agree on something. 

[Xanth]

For once Xanth and I actually agree on something. 

\o/

LoL

[missym]

While biologically it can survive, if the soul was real and it left because the physical body died, wouldn't the severed head die anyway - because the soul or the energy would had left?

Sounds like the animal would function as more of a 'robot' than an actual animal with emotions and such.. It's actually very scary to think of. The Bible states that the first person born without a soul is the beginning of the end of the world..
Now I know this animal is not human and it is not being born per se, but it is sort of a manufactered-birth.. if you know what I mean.
I don't follow the Bible, but it is scary stuff to think about.

[Psilibus]

Xanth is correct.

The body is a vehicle only. For the disconnected head that was not reconnected there would be death for that individual. For the reconnected head there was only suffering and torment. Imagine, trying to bite the staff (torturers) because that is all it could do to protest. Too bad it didn't try to spit as well. Sad. I will bite you if you do that to my head. The "soul" of the animal probably was in a safe place during the whole process anyway, dissociation.

I was always intrigued by the stories of those put to the guillotine. How the dismembered head would grimace and attempt to talk. Not a good time I'm sure for animal OR manimal.

[vladjackguy]

What if consciousness doesn't "reside" in the brain, but is only linked to the brain?
I mean, people have been pronounced "brain dead" for all intents and purposes... yet they can fully experience a NDE.
Then they return and recant that experience to us.

That says to me that the brain isn't where our consciousness resides, only linked to.

As you said though... only my two cents. 

You have free will and you can choose if you want to return back or pass on to the next life.

[Capt. Picard]

What do you mean you can choose to return back or go onto the next life? You can't just choose to end your life if you are suffering, just as you can not choose to return to the body of too much damage has been done to it. Dosen't seem to me that we have free will at all when it comes to this...
Anyways, assuming the brain is not where counciousness is, but is just connected to it would make sense. The astral body is non-physical remember, and so non-local. If the brain is capable of "recieving the signals" from the astral body, then physical life would return, if it is too damaged and the brain can no longer pick up the "signal" then the person dies physically, so in my opinion, it has nothing to do with the chakras or where the spirit is at all, since the spirit does not exist in a physical location at all and just permeates "down" connecting to the physical based on the condition of the physical brain/body. So in this sense, the monkey may have been dead temporarily, but once they attached its head to the other body, I think the "soul" would automatically return as counciousness returns. The monkey providing the body would be dead overall in my opinion, and the energy body would be somewhat compatible enough for the other monkey's head to live but not likely to move the body much. The actual "soul" or "spirit" of the monkey providing the body would be long gone though, but the energy body minus the part of it in its head would still be there melding into the energy body left in the living monkey's head. Energy bodies aside this is probably explained biologically as well, but I thought I'd comment from a spiritual perspective. Just my 2 cents.