I am not Christian and thus always take the Hebrew texts with a grain of salt. However, there are even older Babylonian/Sumarian/Mesopitanian texts that repeat this same story only referring to the Serifs as "Princes."
I just have to say the very thought that I might not be fully human scares the sh*t out of me. Help. [:(]
quote:
Originally posted by Leyla
I just have to say the very thought that I might not be fully human scares the sh*t out of me. Help. [:(]
Why does this scare you?
The way I see it, you are who you are for a very good reason, so you should not feel scared at all. You should be every bit proud of who you are and not allow some remotely possible past make you think any less of yourself. The Universe doesn't make mistakes! If you are the end result of some strange blending of DNA, then look at all the positives in your life, and tell yourself that you are the end result of some very careful planning.
[:)]
James.
Ah, so it's James to the rescue again, I might have known. The S is for Super. I am calming down a bit.
If you'll notice, the author I quoted doesn't believe in alien abductions. He thinks they're a modern cover for angelic abductions. If it had been another UFO conspiracy theory I could have easily dismissed it out of hand- water off a ducks back. But this approach, well it just blew me away.
Whatever we are, I like us. A look around this board will show you we're a well written, bright, sensative bunch of...errr... people (?) with the most polite flame wars on the net.
LOL!!![:D][:D][:D]
Ahh...the author was using psychology, the cunning sod!
Well we have to be sensitive to each other, and not get under each other's skin. You know we folk with lizard DNA can get very cranky when we're molting. [;)]
[:)]
James.
I hope this isn't true! I'm so jealous if it is, because then I think I may be one of those regular humans who will NEVER be able tp project. I've been trying for quite a while, to no avail.
Someone tell me it isn't so.
Giselle
Okay, the Dogma police are here [;)]
Why are angels always Male? And why do they always want Earth girls (Earth Girls are Easy?). I suppose the 'logical' answer is they don't have 9 months to stick around? This smacks of a political treatise, and not a historical text.
Now it currently possible to genetically map people, so the 'genes' that let us do the metaphysical things can be isolated right? Wrong. Anyone can do it, so that means everyone has genes from higher beings?
The idea of 'higher beings' mating with humans is a very old and consistant one. Multiple Mythos have sories of demi-gods and hero's with high-blood in their veins. And why always "fallen" angels? Like somehow touching the physical realm spoils them? You wouldn't think they'd have hit angel status without passing that test? Or maybe it's proof that memories of the flesh are transcendental, and stick with us for eternity?
If it is true that dreams take place on the astral, then we are projecting every night anyway. An unconscious projection is still a projection. Does that mean we are all angelic bastards (uh how rude)? I doubt that. On the other hand, I doubt many things ;)
James - LMAO! Molting.
Veccolo - OBE's are not dreams.
Lucid dreams occur only during REM sleep, whereas OBEs occur from almost any state except REM.
When hooked up to sophisticated brain scanning devices (e.g., EEG, CT, PET, MRI) to identify brain-wave activity OBEs exhibit niether the brain waves nor REM patterns of persons having a lucid dream.
The only flaw in the theory is, you can't get around the fact that many astral projectors are the ONLY person in their whole entire family who have these experiences. Therefore it is not a genetic, angel DNA thing.
Still- I think I may print up a T-Shirt that says "Space Gecko" and wear it around. It'll have a cartoon lizard on it, wearing a tiny astronaut "fish bowl" helmet and hurtling through the stars.
I do know of a famial connection with OOB's. But I'm guessing its just a statistical anomaly(you know, if 1 in 20,000 OOB then there are statistically hundreds of families that have 2 or more people that do). Or (more likely), someone that does a lot of metaphysical work may be "encouraging" their children. You know, helping them with energy and astral insight.
Oh my goodness!!!!!! Horrid thought, checking your childrens subconcious to see what they are hiding from you [}:)] Of course doing this subconciously would explain a lot of messed up kids.....
quote:
Originally posted by Leyla
Veccolo - OBE's are not dreams.
I don't think so.
quote:
Lucid dreams occur only during REM sleep, whereas OBEs occur from almost any state except REM.
Dreams don't occur only in REM sleep.
quote:
When hooked up to sophisticated brain scanning devices (e.g., EEG, CT, PET, MRI) to identify brain-wave activity OBEs exhibit niether the brain waves nor REM patterns of persons having a lucid dream.
I doubt that this is the case for every OBE. As I said, NREM dreams exist also, and that's a fact.
This (obe == special dream) is just my opinion of course. But back to the topic: If you want to know if you're an angelic hybrid, why don't make a DNA test? I'm sure the difference would be significant if you were non-human. Modern science should be able to distinguish non-humans from humans.
This is actually a Biblically supported doctrine and quite radical. Apparently these Giants were "agents" of darkness and were sent to be the tool by which man was to learn and perfect the arts of war metalworks etc etc They basically tried to infect the genepool and were partly succesfull. Genesis as well as other books talk about it as well.
If we get "Biblical" about it...I believe that's one of the reasons God destroyed the world with the flood in Noah's day...to eliminate the sons & daughters of the fallen angels. So, if this theory is supported by the Bible, then all the giants were destroyed and we do not have any decendants of theirs on earth today.
Now I'm reminded why I'm on this quest to begin with... a search for truth. Boy, can it get confusing.
Giselle
Surprise, surprise... I believe the mexican creation myths speak of three races before humans. I think the first of the three were giants.
quote:
First, the great giants. The giants brought forth [some say "slew"] the Naphelim, and the Naphelim brought forth [or "slew"] the Elioud.
I thought the nephelim in biblical texts always reffered to human/angel breed, not giant/angel breed??? This part made the whole thing confusing to me.
Also, I believe the refference to "giant" could be what scientists considered the parrallel race of humans that they say didn't survive the ice age, that's just a thoery though.
Veccolo:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucid dreams occur only during REM sleep, whereas OBEs occur from almost any state except REM.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dreams don't occur only in REM sleep.
Hmm, dreams don't have to only occur in REM, but I think Leyla was just talking about Lucid dreams. (wait, is there a difference?/do I even know what I'm talking about?) I must be one of those left out of the "planning" process. Too much information, and I don't like reading it all, although I do like reading most of some of all. [;)]
edit: Also, I'm starting to think I'm misinformed about a lot of things. Did somebody (I'm in the edit mode here, can't read previous posts, and I have
really bad memory) say that God destroyed the world because of the giants? I haven't read Genesis in a while, but I think I recall reading something about the world doing magic and everything, being evil, so POOF down comes the rain.
Sidenote: This is interesting. But if this were true, then wouldn't we all look completely different? I may have misread what you wrote --what everybody wrote, for that matter. But shouldn't there be some significant differences? I mean, if you mix a black cat with a white cat, you don't get a gray cat, but either a black cat, a white cat, or a mixture. Genetics are tricky, and I want to get rid of them all, but I guess I'm not Biokinetic . . . yet [}:)] <---- oh no! I
AM deformed!
yeah, i've read a little about giants too in metaphysical books. There are actually quite a few channelings out there to humans from astral beings who gave them details as to who and what these giants of the past acutally were. Now, a lot of this new Age stuff is very true and valid, some of it is corrupted info, and some of it is plain made up by unbalanced people. It can be difficult if not impossible to determine what is truth and what it is not.
Given the uselessness of what i just typed, i'll try to add something more constructive:
From what i've learned, our spiritual helpers, guides, Light Beings, etc. want to help us grow as much as possible. Intimate knowledge about stuff that happened hundreds of thousands to millions of years ago has little to NO affect on our current growth, even though the Light Beings do say it is interesting. They suggest to look into only so much as it speaks to your soul, but don't indulge, don't swim deep into the waters of akashic records because you'll probably only get mired in stuff that won't really do you much good other than confuse you and get you off track.
That said, i think there probably were giants long ago, and they probably still exist on other worlds and dimensions around us. Hell, i've been reading about Lemurian civilizations under Mt. Shasta do thrive to this very DAY! Now that's just plain trippy to me, and ain't a single way for me to prove or disprove but, but plenty of channellers say they've been there and spoke to em...
quote:
Originally posted by ImmuredSoul
Hmm, dreams don't have to only occur in REM, but I think Leyla was just talking about Lucid dreams. (wait, is there a difference?/do I even know what I'm talking about?) I must be one of those left out of the "planning" process. Too much information, and I don't like reading it all, although I do like reading most of some of all. [;)]
Personally, I think OBEs are WILDs (wake induced lucid dreams). I mean, the dreamer gets the same sensations, uses the same induction techniques, has same brain waves (as far as I've read) etc.
So the only difference would be the point of view.
Lucid dreams can occur in both, REM and NREM. I mean, a lucid dream is "just" a normal dream where the dreamer is conscious.
I was somewhat thinking that when you OBE you first slip into subconsciousness, into some kind of sleep, not awake whatsoever, before moving out into the astral. Then again, I really just don't know much of anything, so maybe it's better if I just read than write . . . no, for then I won't learn.
All right, maybe so OBEs and WILDs are the same thing. That would be interesting to say that all of the stuff is just the same thing (or has someone already stated this before?), just different ways of using it? If I were to be awake during OBE/WILD would it be possible that I could slip into a sleep? Would that just be lucid and no longer an OBE?
quote:
That would be interesting to say that all of the stuff is just the same thing (or has someone already stated this before?), just different ways of using it?
That's what I actually think too. It seems that it has mainly to do with the "belief" the person has.
In both experiences you can "go with the flow", and let your subconscious create the world around you. That leads to realistic, often story-like experiences. But, you can also create the experience you want to experience with your conscious mind.
So the difference is, the lucid dreamer thinks he is dreaming, while the obe'er thinks he is not. But both, OBE/WILD, are probably the same.
One doesn't lose consciousness while entering an OBE/LD through the specific techniques, so the point of view of the obe'er is highly understandable.
IMO it doesn't matter anyway if dream or not, the experience is exceptional in both cases.
quote:
If I were to be awake during OBE/WILD would it be possible that I could slip into a sleep? Would that just be lucid and no longer an OBE?
What do you mean with "awake"? The body is asleep in both cases. In both experiences you can lose your lucidity and end up in a normal, "unconscious" dream.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were to be awake during OBE/WILD would it be possible that I could slip into a sleep? Would that just be lucid and no longer an OBE?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you mean with "awake"? The body is asleep in both cases. In both experiences you can lose your lucidity and end up in a normal, "unconscious" dream.
I was thinking that you're awake, then fall into a subconscious before slipping into the atral, but when you slip into the astral you wake again (but you're still astral, and it only appears that you are sleeping to those around). My mistake, I suppose.
People have been trying to prove OBE's are dreams for years, without success. The experiments have already been run.
Here are the results of another study for you:
LUCID DREAM/OBE
LUCID DREAM: 50%-70% incidence in general population.
OBE: 14%-25% incidence in general population.
LUCID DREAM: Occurs only during sleep.
OBE: Occurs usually when awake.
LUCID DREAM: Dreamer can consciously program the dream.
OBEer: is a passive, objective observer.
LUCID DREAM: Dreamer and physical body are still integrated.
OBEer: perceives him/herself as separated from the physical body, which is inert and thoughtless.
LUCID DREAM: Consciousness often vivid, with mystical qualities in experienced subjects.
OBE: Consciousness more ordinary, like being awake, even in experienced subjects.
LUCID DREAM:Dream is seen as a totally personal (subjective) production of the dreamer's mind.
OBEer: does not see it as a subjective personal production, but rather as objective reality.
LUCID DREAM: EEG; REM dream type with occasional alpha.
OBE: No typical REM findings on EEG.
LUCID DREAM: Physical body not visible.
OBE: Physical body visible.
[OBEer will see their physical body, but LDers do not.]
LUCID DREAM: Fewer have a lasting positive impact.
OBE: Usually a highly positive lasting impact.
In a lucid dream, typically one does not dream about being in one's bedroom, as is common in the out-of-body state.
Perhaps the hidden reason for your very strong opinion is because you have never had an OBE, and thus need to belive a WILD/Lucid Dream is the "same thing."
People are getting confused.
According to text there were THREE (3) races of half angel/half humans.
1)The Giants
2)The Naphelim
3)The Elioud
Supposedly they were killed in the flood. Yet they re-appear alive and well in at Khebrown in the days of Moses (NUM 13:33)
Also- Goliath that David killed was one of the giants in (1st Samuel 17)
quote:
Perhaps the hidden reason for your very strong opinion is because you have never had an OBE, and thus need to belive a WILD/Lucid Dream is the "same thing."
And you've probably never had a WILD, because you'd knew then that OBE is practically the same thing.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: 50%-70% incidence in general population.
OBE: 14%-25% incidence in general population.
50-70% DILDs, not WILDs.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: Occurs only during sleep.
OBE: Occurs usually when awake.
That just is not true. The body sleeps usually in both cases, while the "conscious" mind is awake.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: Dreamer can consciously program the dream.
OBEer: is a passive, objective observer.
As I wrote, "going with the flow". The person can influence both experiences, if he wants to.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: Dreamer and physical body are still integrated.
OBEer: perceives him/herself as separated from the physical body, which is inert and thoughtless.
Just the same as with (most) WILDs.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: Consciousness often vivid, with mystical qualities in experienced subjects.
OBE: Consciousness more ordinary, like being awake, even in experienced subjects.
The consciousness in DILDs varies. In WILDs, they're just like RL, because there is no "blackout" of the consciousness while entering the LD. Nothing different here. And "mystical" can both experiences be.
quote:
LUCID DREAM:Dream is seen as a totally personal (subjective) production of the dreamer's mind.
OBEer: does not see it as a subjective personal production, but rather as objective reality.
As I said, point of view. That doesn't prove anything.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: EEG; REM dream type with occasional alpha.
OBE: No typical REM findings on EEG.
I want to see the scientific study which comes to this conclusion. In fact, I've read quite the opposite. I'm sure you can give me a link to the article of the lab/university which got those results.
It's true, however, that most DILDs occur during REM sleep (but not always!). WILDs can occur in both, NREM and REM. At least I've had WILDs on the beginning of my sleep cycle, where normaly no REM sleep occurs.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: Physical body not visible.
OBE: Physical body visible.
[OBEer will see their physical body, but LDers do not.]
Not true, I've seen my "physical" body after entering a LD through WILD, as well as in a few DILDs.
quote:
LUCID DREAM: Fewer have a lasting positive impact.
OBE: Usually a highly positive lasting impact.
That's purely subjective. I, at least, feel happy the whole day if I had a LD.
quote:
In a lucid dream, typically one does not dream about being in one's bedroom, as is common in the out-of-body state.
In a WILD it's common to dream about the bedroom (or the place where one fell asleep) as the "starting place".
edit:
Maybe this does interest you:
http://lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html
OBE-like experiences happen in REM as well.
It's better we stop this discussion here (we can continue over PMs, if you like), because it's quite off topic.
edit:
fixed a few typos ...
I have actualy heard of people experiencing OBE's while wide awake, I remembered one of one man who was giving a speach and to find him self above at an angle, no one noticed any thing ususual, his speach went on as normal, yet floating above and watching it...strange.
quote:
Originally posted by manuel
I have actualy heard of people experiencing OBE's while wide awake, I remembered one of one man who was giving a speach and to find him self above at an angle, no one noticed any thing ususual, his speach went on as normal, yet floating above and watching it...strange.
Hmm, interesting. That's probably either a mind trick (dream-like), or a RTZ-OBE, which I consider to be somekind of ESP experience.
(Lol, I hope Leyla didn't mean RTZ-OBEs, because I was talking about the "normal" OBE/AP experience [:)] )
OBE-like experiences can also occur while awake, that's true, with the use of drugs for example. But I would say most (if not all) experiences under drug influence are hallucinations.
word of the wise...dont believe everything you read...even the bible/ancient writings/etc. i have come to learn that proving things for myself are the only knowns in my life. i consider everything i read, but thats not to say i believe it. if you think about it, anyone could have altered the writings or it could have been written by a lunatic. you never know, so i choose to learn things for myself. just speaking my mind. salut
Veccolo-
Must you, really, MUST you argue every little point to within an inch of it's life?
There is no mistaking an OBE from a Lucid Dream, and if you'd had both you would know that.
You have hijacked my post on mythic texts and serifs, which I seriously wanted to discuss, to argue semantics and throw around a bunch of worthless technical jargon in your desperate attempt to convince me you're some kind of expert.
You have everything to prove, and nothing to gain.
That being said, I would appreciate it if we all stayed on the TOPIC of this post. From now on.
quote:
There is no mistaking an OBE from a Lucid Dream
As I said, I don't think so, but that's just my OPINION, of course. Most of the experiences posted on this forum can easily be explained as lucid dreams. Still, they're classified as OBEs.
quote:
You have hijacked my post on mythic texts and serifs, which I seriously wanted to discuss, to argue semantics and throw around a bunch of worthless technical jargon in your desperate attempt to convince me you're some kind of expert.
What the ...? I've just stated that
if it is true that dreams occur on the ASTRAL, everyone projects every night anyway. If dreams take place on the astral (outside of the body), they're unconscious OBEs on the astral plane. That's simple logic.
However, you didn't seem to like that statement and said dreams are no OBEs. After that, YOU started this OBE vs. LD debate.
I didn't try to convince anyone that I'm an expert (which I'm not), I just stated my opinion.
Ah well, I'll stop now.
[edit]
Fixed typo ...
I shudder even to write this.
I would like to start of by saying that I don't necessarily belive any of this. Just because it's written in some ancient texts doesn't make it true.
But I must say- it does give me quite a start.
The major reason this *cannot* be true is because we would all have to be related. Many astral projectors are the ONLY person in their whole entire family who have these experiences. It is not genetic.
My adventure began when I came across this in a mythology book.
"The offspring of the serafs illegitimate matings were the giants, humanoid creatures 137 metres tall. Possessed of perishable protoplasmic bodies inherited from their mortal mothers and imperishable astral bodies inherited from there immortal fathers. The supernatural nature of the fallen angels allows them to move in and out of this dimension. (1 Enoch 7; Jubilees 5)"
According to Greek manuscripts, "And they [the women] bore to them [the Watchers] THREE races.
First, the great giants. The giants brought forth [some say "slew"] the Naphelim, and the Naphelim brought forth [or "slew"] the Elioud.
The giants were all killed. But what of the other two races?
Here's what some people have to say:
"The Gibborim are the 'Mighty Men of Renown' created by the Watchers when they left their heavenly abode and came down to the daughters of men and produced the 'Mighty Men of Renown' as recorded in Genesis Chapter 6:4 of the Old Testament. They are half breeds, angelic hybrids.
When fallen angels shape-shift into a from of human being they can have intercourse but not without some aberrant genetic changes. The union of these beasts with humans produced children that were different in many ways. The first apparent difference was that they developed giantism. They were giants. Og the King of Bashan had a bed that was 13 to 15 feet long; and Goliath was 6 cubits tall (9 feet) and they had six fingers and toes.
In addition to giantism, the Gibborim had powerful psychic abilities like Out-Of-Body experiences, levitation, mind control, time travel, mind reading, remote viewing, the power of placing curses and diseases, the power of removing curses and diseases, and ways of knowing and predicting the future...
They had super powerful brains and they were extremely intelligent. They knew all the sciences. In short, they had demonic powers."
(Hey man! Demonic is in the eye of the beholder!)
The aberrant genetic tendencies of the Gibborim were unfortunately cloned into the D.N.A. of mankind. Fallen angels will make love to women and back breed until they have genetically produced a creature that is fully fallen angel and fully man. A bastard angelic incarnation. This may be an explanation for the reported cases of 'alien' abduction.
(Okay- this explains the alien hunters who were harassing me via E-mail.)
All I can think of is, at some point people became aware of us, and the fact that we are a bit differant. They created this myth as an explanation. Clearly they were afraid. But again, the DNA theory does not hold water, as none of us are blood related.
I'm not sure whether to laugh, cry, or scream.