I wanted to post this message after a few days of watching videos on Youtube. My own belief is in spirituality, but haven't any of you thought that it may be Satan who's giving you these experiences?
This is really starting to concern me, and I'd really like to see what you lot thought. The reason why I brought this up is mainly because of the RFID chip which are being used, and could be classed as the mark of the beast.
May be I'm thinking to much into it, and religious points of view are getting to me, and I don't want to end up in a shallow heaven / hell.
I won't say it's not possible... anything is possible.
I, however, don't believe in Satan, the devil, demons, god, or anything even remotely "religious".
So, for me personally (and I can only speak for myself here obviously), it's not related to anything religious in that manner. :)
I can definitely understand if you were religious, and looking at it from that perspective though. All anyone can do is give you their own opinions.
Which Satan?
Feel very annoyed that Christianity was forced on me as a child in schools, even though I wasn't christened.
We have no way of knowing if astral projection is what it seems, if it's just a ruse created by a demonic figure, etc. For me it boils down to this... life is a test. You can either let Christianity provide you with unverified sparknotes or you can do the research for yourself.
You are your own satan :evil:
But anyways, I doubt it's any satan that makes you astral project
Thanks for responses. I've read a bit of the bible, and to me god seems to be very sadistic in nature, a sort of "follow me or die". A good example of this was Noah, and also Egypt with the Exodus, and also Babylon. (To name a few)
These thing just made me hate the bible even more. I mean really, how could you love a god that kills thousands of people including Innocent, just because there were a few bad people. How many times has the bible be screwed over, over the years by malicious people?
I've been to the Buddhic level (what happened to get to this level was quite amazing also), and I've never felt that amount of love in my life, and I really don't believe you can physically.
Christian would have me say that this was "work of the devil". I'm really at a lose??
I'd rather be in void, than know a god that does that.
P.s. I'm sorry if I'm giving you a headache, but this is important to me.
It's very important for people to reconcile their religious beliefs in such a way that allows them to pursue that which they desire to do.
We definitely understand the predicament you're in The_One.
I'd point you towards CFTraveler... I believe she mentioned recently that she too is Christian and probably has great insight towards how she reconciles this aspect of her life. :)
To be honest my own personal experiences have brought me to where I am now and what I believe. And from the books I've read basically I don't even believe in a certain religion anymore. Along with that god or satan. I believe there are more developed beings out there such as guides or helpers but in my opinion is this stuff in anyway ran by satan? No
I know where you are coming from. I have been raised in a Christian home. Not a strict Christian home mind you, but still. Bless my parents, wonderful people. They never forced me to go to church.
There are many things about the christian faiths that I have grown to dislike. Yes, there are many universal truths in it and that's what I take from it.
Do I believe in an scapegoat entity called satan that has his thumb on my soul? No. People are basically selfish, and that more than anything is the root of evil. Selfish greed.
Do I believe in a god that allows people to burn in hell who have never even heard of him (eg, african tribesmen)? Nope. How can anyone?
If the christian faith is where you feel comfortable, fine go ahead. If it is not, then seek a different path. It is really that simple. The uncertainty you feel will dissipate as your mind opens up, trust me.
I agree, Id rather go to oblivion than sit in a choir with 140 000 doe eyed angels singing for a god who created purposefully limited thinking beings and then allow them to be eternally tortured in some horrible hellhole if they don't bow down to him.
It is childish and ridiculous and unnecessary to believe this. Its an archaic believe system based on 2000 year old points of view... and its demise is long overdue.
But hey, if you want to believe that and if believing it makes you feel special, go ahead. We can coexist peacefully as long as they don't try to convert me.
The bible is a device for universally ordering the future nothing more
and in my travels i have seen that it works like a charm
:NoY:
Quote from: The_One on February 11, 2011, 17:14:40
I wanted to post this message after a few days of watching videos on Youtube. My own belief is in spirituality, but haven't any of you thought that it may be Satan who's giving you these experiences?
Absolutely Not.
I like Frank kepples take on religion,it feels like something I have always known but never thought about before hand.
also like the thought = action rule so...
If you believe in satan, he exists
if you dont, he doesnt.
Also Astral projection goes back thousands of years and apparently is mentioned a few times in the bible.
Thank you very much for replies, I really appreciate it. The irony of all of this is, I'm not christian.
I'm sticking with spirituality. :-)
Quote from: The_One on February 13, 2011, 06:53:45
Thank you very much for replies, I really appreciate it. The irony of all of this is, I'm not christian.
I'm sticking with spirituality. :-)
then why is it a big concern?
It is only a concern if you are afraid. I'm not religious but I subscribe a little to Buddhism. I will sum up a Buddha quote here: "You can only be truly free if you don't fear what might become of you." - here lies deep wisdom (see my signature).
I've been projecting since 98 and I've never seen a demon simply because I don't believe in them. Sure I've met some strange characters like hooded figures, cartoon-like people, even 'harlequins'! But they did not harm me in anyway. Now I get excited to meet and interact with these strangers regardless of whether they are concoctions of my unconscious mind or something more.
My point here is that the pragmatic mind does not experience demons. They are nothing more than manifestations of fear arising in your mind which, once faced, cease to be.
Take the Buddha story, for instance. When prince Siddhartha Gautama was in his deep meditative trance in order to achieve enlightenment, a demon known as Mara, the lord of illusions, emerged. This demon strived to keep the prince attached to his ego as the latter worked towards its renunciation. Do you know how the prince defeated Mara? By recognising that the demon was an aspect of himself, the devil in all of us. His experience was purely psychological, and, once it was over, he was "awake" - Buddha
Just like a child who fears many unrealistic concepts will have nightmares, so will OOBErs have unpleasant experiences if they fear and believe in demons. When experienced they are nothing more than manifestations of our fears just as the inaccurate replicas of our bedrooms in Focus 2 oc are nothing more than thought-form constructs manifested from subconscious expectation. I've read Kepple and he is spot on in my opinion. The religious are the ones who get stuck in the "astral mud" because of the boundaries they believe in.
You really think there's a judgemental god like the biblical one? Christianity is very much fear-based in my opinion. How can one be truly deserving of a heaven when their "good" deeds are only based on the fear of going to hell? Salvation? Pfft...You are only truly deserving of a heavenly state of mind when you do not seek or ask for it. Here lies true wisdom...
But, what do I know right? Devout Christians feel free to rip my post apart. You can label me as "lost" but I'm pretty sure that as Christians you'll find it in you to forgive me.
Demons don't exist. At least not in the sense that the Bible seems to allude to. There's no such thing. As for the Biblical God...what do you think? If he is so merciful why did he kick poor Lucifer out of heaven for being a rebel who refused to follow him. Is that what we should do with our teenage kids when they rebel? Come on...
Religion is one thing...astral projection is another!
Nice quote, but bad context and usage pertaining to the quote... :-P
Why is that, Monk? Care to elaborate?
Using a quote that in the original context pertained to a deconstruction of "everything" to justify even more thought constructs is quite skiddish.
And what thought constructs would that be?
It is very simple and Buddha, regardless of whether the story was true or not, was only used as an example. If you believe in demons, you will see them. If you fear them, they will come after you. If you face them, they'll no longer exist in your mind just like Buddha faced the last ounce of his ego and it no longer was. He was in control in the end. That's what being "awake" means. It was purely psychological. He merely erased an element of his psyche. He did not "deconstruct everything" because after his meditation he was still alive and able to interact with the external world as a new person.
Thank you for your insights, I'm not going to let Christianity get in my way. The more I think about what I've read in the bible, the more nasty god seems to be. I used to let Jehovah's witnesses into my home to see their point of view, and I remember them telling me about a story. It was about a man that god let Satan torture just to see how loyal he was to god. Even to the point of giving him a diseases and killing all of his family (quote me if I'm wrong). Just remembered this the other day.
Religion is differently a barrier, and I'm choosing what I want to believe.
That's it, buddy. And don't let those people into your house again. Goodness me! LOL! Reality is whatever you make of it. You are free to believe in whatever you want to believe in. Also, OOBEs (both here-now and metaphysical projections) are completely harmless. Believe me, nothing will come to get you there if you have no fear.
I never focus on anything like that when I project. Instead I use my OOBEs to either have fun or to make observations for the sake of study. I have already been able to make some interesting observations which do not involve any god of any kind. For instance, if you decide to visit someone in a Locale II projection, you might find yourself in their thought-form worlds, imagination or even dreams regardless of whether they are sleeping or awake. When you tell them about the experience, things seem to make more sense to them than you and they usually express shock. Also, projections may allow for retrocognition and precognition. There are so many things you can do in other altered states of consciousness but I'll say no more and let you explore. Look at the phenomenon from a fresh perspective and forget all that religious nonsense and New Age beliefs. Make up your own mind... :wink:
OOBEs/AP/lucid dreams can be exciting and they are certainly interesting. They may also provide clues as to what an afterlife may be like...an afterlife where you can be happy without a belief system that includes God in it. Not everyone believes in God and they can still be good people and just as deserving of happiness as the devout Christian who unfortunately fell at the hands of mass delusion.
Btw, that's just my opinion. For Christians out there, if you want to believe in god, go ahead! :-D
Strangely enough, I had a dream one day about a "situation" that did happen a day later. The lucid dream was also very vivid. I suppose this would be precognition.
Usually precognitive dreams are vivid. What's more, you may be able to identify a "tracer" in them that seems to indicate their revealing nature (see How To Have Psychic Dreams by Summerlander in the Articles section on Astral Viewers). :wink:
The_One,
Fear is the toughest battle to over-come when learning how to exit the body and what awaits us. We definitely take in the different religious views about this from the Churches, Family, and Friends.
I am going to point out to you about "Religion" and "Experience". You definitely need to be careful with anything you approach in life. You can look at religion and follow your heart, love others, offer your time to others less fortune etc. You can also twist religion around and follow a negative path and Kill in the name of God, steal from the poor, have mansions, cars, fame, drugs, or become a pedophile molestrating alter boys. Religion is here to help us become closer to God. However, along the lines the churches twisted the interpretations with their beliefs putting fear into the masses of what is acceptable and what isn't.
Now, lets take something simple as water. It can be used as good for many things. Our bodies, growing out vegetables, grass, trees, dogs, cats etc.. We then can take water and hurt people as well by drowning them, blasting the water at high pressure removing someone's skin etc. You get the picture.. Enuf said
With astral projection, out of body experiences the same principals should be practiced when exercising on the other side. What you bring back from your experiences, how will it help you, loved one's, and others around you?
I have been at projecting for 20+ yrs now and been involved in church activies, foster temp care, hospice voluteer companion to the dying, running marathons for diseases and raising funds. I am now looking into supporting and becoming a mentor to children in South Africa. I am not boasting here and yes I also am human and have my huge downfalls too.
So in the twenty years now, if the devil was deceiving me down this path of positiveness of helping others just because I have projected. I do find that as a unique twist on what religion purposes and states as Satan in the long run being deceptive.
I know not everyone will agree to this especially religious clergy and congregations. Many feel that these experiences are dark, evil, satanic. A lot of those people who say this either have had a brief encounter with OBE and were scarred to death or never experienced multiple times. I am not talking 10-20 times. We are talking couple thousands times to really experience, know how to work with the spirit body and confront those fears.
So in all - the most important thing to learn about projecting, leaving the body is to base it on your experiences and how it helps you grow, love, help others and test the validation of your actions.
Thank You,
DW
Quote from: The_One on February 15, 2011, 14:45:51
Thank you for your insights, I'm not going to let Christianity get in my way. The more I think about what I've read in the bible, the more nasty god seems to be. I used to let Jehovah's witnesses into my home to see their point of view, and I remember them telling me about a story. It was about a man that god let Satan torture just to see how loyal he was to god. Even to the point of giving him a diseases and killing all of his family (quote me if I'm wrong). Just remembered this the other day.
Religion is differently a barrier, and I'm choosing what I want to believe.
That would be the story of Job, and it can be seen differently, because after all the bad stuff happened he said "What I feared has come upon me; what I dreaded has happened to me.". So you see even in this example it shows that nothing happened that he didn't believe could happen.
And yes, I'm a metaphysical Christian.
I appreciate all you lot have said. I think the moral of the story is to take things I believe to be beneficial to me, and throw out stuff that's holding me back.
Christianity and religion in general is mostly harmful. I spent roughly 15 years in church, forced by my parents, including a few years in a Lutheran school. I am still attempting to reverse the harm that was almost permanently ingrained into my core.
Over the years I came to my senses through tons of research on my own and came to the conclusion that all religions are made up belief systems, by humans, to explain things they can't understand. Simply by examining the bible itself, you will see that it is clearly fables written a few thousand years ago by sheepherders. Simple minded men who put into this book things like specific instructions for beating slaves, the stoning of a man who was gathering firewood on a sunday, a man sacrificing his own daughter to gain favor with god, the command to kill children who curse their parents, and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent people. None of this sounds like a book written by "god". Why would god condone the beating of slaves? The murder of children who curse at their parents? Are you serious?
Just that little tidbit should settle it for you but there's tons and tons more. You can also find literally hundreds of contradictions in the bible that make absolutely zero sense. You can google these if you ever get bored and need any more persuasion.
Hardcore fundamentalist christians will tell you to avoid astral projection because it's "of the devil". You should probably avoid religious people because most of them are self fulfilling prophecies and full of debbie downer information that is a complete stab in the dark at the unknown. Astral projection can give you first hand personal verification of things that no other person on this planet can help you figure out. There is no book or person that has all the answers and anyone claiming that should be the biggest red flag you can possibly get.
Quote from: The_One on February 11, 2011, 17:14:40
I wanted to post this message after a few days of watching videos on Youtube. My own belief is in spirituality, but haven't any of you thought that it may be Satan who's giving you these experiences?
This is really starting to concern me, and I'd really like to see what you lot thought. The reason why I brought this up is mainly because of the RFID chip which are being used, and could be classed as the mark of the beast.
May be I'm thinking to much into it, and religious points of view are getting to me, and I don't want to end up in a shallow heaven / hell.
I stumbled across this website because i was actually looking for astralweb.org, which is m.i.a. now. I use to practice astral travel.. seeking wisdom, seeking guidance in life, just wanting to be a better person. However, my first experience lead me to seek for God. Sure enough, after enough meditation and following all the steps that astralweb.org had to offer, my consciousness traveled to a situation where two "entities" (demons as i see it now) were right in front of me and all i could sense was them wanting to harm me. Therefore i panicked and called out for God and this immense light came from my person... and i immediately came to with the feeling of my heart chakra spinning.
So because i called out to God and he saved me, i decided to look for him. Opened the bible and found myself reading for long periods of time, but it was as if a veil was over my eyes. It was like someone speaking but was going in one ear and out the other.. Yet, i came across a scripture that caught my attention... it is written,
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire,
who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is
detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you." -Deut 18:10-12 N.I.V. 2011
This is written simply because practicing such things can confuse you from knowing the truth about man. Take for example even the elementary things written about man. It is written regarding Adam, that Adam was formed from the dust and God ...blew into his nostrils... and Adam "...became a living soul" (Gen 2:7; Ezek 18:4) Many bibles render it that way, that he wasnt given a soul, he was the soul. But the worlds fallacy, because of the congregating of people together before the tower of babel ( Gen 11:1-6; Later known as Babylon), is of hellfire and that of immortal souls and predestination..
most religions hold that God made this like, fiery hell to torment people forever, except those "predestined" for salvation righ? If that is true, then why am I living.. wha place do I have amongst this dying world... im not wicked nor an atheist but if the wicked one was "predestined" to be born then die, then why should the day he was born be a day of remembrance? Why should he even be alive, for his life will be vanity itself. I mean, a God that would use his power to create human beings, who he foreknew and predestined to be eternally tormented, could neither be wise, just, nor loving. His standard would be lower than that of many men.
Fortunately, the the true God of Israel, Jehovah, is not that way. I believe in Jah and i dont believe in predestination .. it would mean that life would be vain for people.. If Jah, the creator of u and I, forknew and predestined people to be tormented, would mean that he is being partial when it comes to predestination.. yet, the bible says God is love (1 John 4:8 <--eight) and he judges impartially (1 Pet 1:17) .. its like if people are predestined to go to a certain destination.. if one person is predestined for this so called hellfire and another to heaven... if its already written down that your life or my life is vainty because a individual is predestined to hellfire or an individual is predestined to heaven, then wth!??
Yet, let scripture interpret scripture...the creeds of the great churches teach that the wicked are eternally, tormented. Philosophy that surrounds the immortality of the soul teaching. When the bible says that the soul can die (Ezek 18:4)
It is even written regarding death, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun....Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." - Eccl 9:5,6,10
Immortality is a gift that the True God bestows upon the faithful, not a gift he bestows upon the wicked.. so how can the wicked have an immortal soul?
"1 Cor
2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
3:16 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
12:5 And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord.
12:6 And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all.
12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal.
12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit:
12:9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit;
12:10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:
12:11 but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will.
12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.
12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
12:30 have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
12:31 But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.
14:1 Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."
So in 14:1 it says you should desire spiritual gifts, and don't accept man's judgement (on 2:15).
And what is judgement? Calling something divination, instead of prophesy, calling something sorcery, instead of healing, calling something negative that comes from love.
Here's more:
"2 Corinthians 12
1
I must boast; not that it is profitable, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2
I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven.
3
And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows)
4
was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things, which no one may utter."
Obviously talking about OBE here, and as a good thing too. "I must boast..."
But wait, there's more:
Rev 1:10 "I was in the spirit on the lords day...." and John goes on to describe his astral travel.
So it's not that the bible condemns it, it's that modern orthodox (or fundamentalist, or strict, take your pick) don't want us to do any of what the old prophets did, because it would prove what Jesus said- that we can do what he did. And they'd rather ignore that little factoid, because it gives their clergy the power.
Quote from: CFTraveler on April 10, 2011, 13:41:19
"1 Cor
2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
3:16 Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
12:5 And there are diversities of ministrations, and the same Lord.
12:6 And there are diversities of workings, but the same God, who worketh all things in all.
12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit to profit withal.
12:8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit:
12:9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit;
12:10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:
12:11 but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will.
12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ.
12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.
12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
12:30 have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
12:31 But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.
14:1 Follow after love; yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."
So in 14:1 it says you should desire spiritual gifts, and don't accept man's judgement (on 2:15).
And what is judgement? Calling something divination, instead of prophesy, calling something sorcery, instead of healing, calling something negative that comes from love.
Here's more:
"2 Corinthians 12
1
I must boast; not that it is profitable, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2
I know someone in Christ who, fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows), was caught up to the third heaven.
3
And I know that this person (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows)
4
was caught up into Paradise and heard ineffable things, which no one may utter."
Obviously talking about OBE here, and as a good thing too. "I must boast..."
But wait, there's more:
Rev 1:10 "I was in the spirit on the lords day...." and John goes on to describe his astral travel.
So it's not that the bible condemns it, it's that modern orthodox (or fundamentalist, or strict, take your pick) don't want us to do any of what the old prophets did, because it would prove what Jesus said- that we can do what he did. And they'd rather ignore that little factoid, because it gives their clergy the power.
Earlier in that same book, Paul stated "We received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God."—1 CORINTHIANS 2:12.
What differs regarding that spirit that Paul refers to, and the spirit that operates in this world, is that God's holy spirit was given by Jesus to his disciples to preach about God's coming kingdom. The spirit that God, thru Moses warned against (Deut 18:10-12), is that which is practiced to attain. The spirit that permeates this world, is not of God... for it is written, "The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. " - Rev 12:9 N.I.V. 2011....
Also, Jesus stated "I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me" John 14:30 N.I.V. 2011. Satan is the temporary ruler of this world -1 John 5:19; 2 Cor 4:4 and his spirit is evident. In fact, the spirit of the world is in evidence all around us. For example, there is the flippant, sarcastic attitude with which many approach life. Disillusioned by corrupt or inept politicians and by immoral, greedy religious leaders, they speak irreverently about even serious things.
But not to get sidetracked...As Paul stated in 2 Cor 12:1-3, one cannot deny that Paul states "whether in the body or out of the body" is written. That the guy he talks about may have had an O.B.E. however, for someone to be considered "someone in Christ" (2 Cor 12:2) means they are obedient to what is written. If Deut 18:10-12, says they are not to ..practices divination... interpret omens ..or become a medium or spiritist or who consult the dead... do you think he would be considered obedient or "someone in Christ" ?? Again, theres no denying that he may have had an O.B.E., however, the difference is that he didnt force this to happen, or practice it.. for Mosiac law prohibited the Israelites to practice such things.
Since Satan and his demons have been hurled to the earth, it is beneficial to oneself to listen to whats written at Deut 18... one can be easily manipulated by the machinations that Satan puts before all man.
Furthermore, not to get techy but the scriptures, however, give no indication that miraculous gifts of the spirit were to continue with Christians throughout the centuries. To the contrary, miraculous gifts were to cease.1 Cor 13:8 goes on to say "... As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away." - E.S.V. Whenever the miraculous gifts of the spirit were transmitted, one or more of the apostles directly chosen by Jesus Christ was present. (Acts 2:1, 4, 14; 8:9-20; 10:44-46; 19:6) Hence, it is logical to conclude that the transmittal of these gifts ended with the death of the apostles, and the miraculous gifts themselves ceased when their remaining possessors died.
Hi The_One, the thought came to me that if it was Satan it wouldn't be so hard to Astral project!!! He would make it a lot easier!!
cheers djed :-D
Thats a good point m8, I'll take that onboard.
QuoteFurthermore, not to get techy but the scriptures, however, give no indication that miraculous gifts of the spirit were to continue with Christians throughout the centuries. To the contrary, miraculous gifts were to cease.1 Cor 13:8 goes on to say "... As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away." - E.S.V. Whenever the miraculous gifts of the spirit were transmitted, one or more of the apostles directly chosen by Jesus Christ was present. (Acts 2:1, 4, 14; 8:9-20; 10:44-46; 19:6) Hence, it is logical to conclude that the transmittal of these gifts ended with the death of the apostles, and the miraculous gifts themselves ceased when their remaining possessors died.
Yet, in John 14:12-14 He states:
"I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Why? Because I am going to the Father. And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father's glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it." So once again, there is a difference from the 'old practices' and the new practices, and it has to do with the spirit and the intention of the practitioner.
It is apparent from the previous readings that what Jesus was talking about (through John) was the importance of Love, or God's intention, made the difference between proscribed and allowed practices- it is the spirit that drives you and not the practice itself. This is the center of all Jesus' teachings, and the basis for his miracles.
Feel free to disagree, but I believe it is love that God wants to see in this world, and not 'obedience'; else Jesus would not have been as clear and to the point when he stated that he came to supersede the previous commandments with the one.
http://bible.cc/john/13-34.htm
Thanks for that Traveller. I've chosen the path that is constructive and positive for me, and others around me.
I'm happy to hear that. Peace.
Quote from: CFTraveler on April 11, 2011, 10:16:30
Yet, in John 14:12-14 He states:
"I tell you the truth. The person that believes in me will do the same things I have done. Yes! He will do even greater things than I have done. Why? Because I am going to the Father. And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father's glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it." So once again, there is a difference from the 'old practices' and the new practices, and it has to do with the spirit and the intention of the practitioner.
It is apparent from the previous readings that what Jesus was talking about (through John) was the importance of Love, or God's intention, made the difference between proscribed and allowed practices- it is the spirit that drives you and not the practice itself. This is the center of all Jesus' teachings, and the basis for his miracles.
Feel free to disagree, but I believe it is love that God wants to see in this world, and not 'obedience'; else Jesus would not have been as clear and to the point when he stated that he came to supersede the previous commandments with the one.
http://bible.cc/john/13-34.htm
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome." -1 John 5:3 E.S.V.
Im pretty sure the "intention of the practitioner" is of sound mind and of good heart. Unless of course they outright reject what they know to be good, and practice what is evil. Yet, in that same chapter of John 14, verse 15 Jesus says "If you
LOVE me, you will observe my commandments"... The Bible emphasizes the value of obedience with these words: "Does Jehovah have as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Look! To obey is better than a sacrifice, to pay attention than the fat of rams."—1 Samuel 15:22. -N.W.T.
Genuine love of God means more than merely offering sacrifices. While it is true what you spoke, "it is love that God wants to see in this world"... but love for who...love for fellow neighbor, love for God's creation, but most importantly as Jesus stated... ""'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind" -Luke 10:25-28 N.I.V. 2011
Here then is stated concisely and correctly the command of Jehovah, and those obedient to it will obtain life and live forever. "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." -John 17:3 N.A.S.B. For obedience is a compliance with commands, a readiness to perform that which is required or directed by authority, a dutifulness. Obedience is a divine requirement and includes a joyful, willing submission to do the will of God.
But not to get sidetracked again, the Bible reveals that God enabled some Christians to work miracles, such as expelling demons, healing the sick and, in a few cases, resurrecting the dead. This was to show that he was now dealing with and blessing the Christian congregation. (Acts 3:2-8; 5:12-16; 9:36-40; 16:16-18) But were those works greater than what Jesus did? He cured all who came to him and even some at a distance, miraculously fed thousands, resurrected the dead and controlled natural forces. (Matt. 8:5-16, 23-27; 14:14-33; John 11:39-44) Furthermore, the miraculous gifts of the spirit that some Christians displayed were to end or pass away. (1 Cor. 13:8-10) So, rhetorically speaking, how were Christians to do greater works than Jesus ?
I didn't say they would do greater works- I'm saying he said they would. You can twist my words any way you like to make something wrong, but it won't.
Quote from: CFTraveler on April 12, 2011, 22:33:29
I didn't say they would do greater works- I'm saying he said they would. You can twist my words any way you like to make something wrong, but it won't.
Im half sleep right now. I just realized that this forum is in another country so bare with me. Yes, it was Jesus who spoke those words. Therefore, im not twisting your words since you did not speak them. Just trying to provoke thought about what he meant by what he said.