Im a Christian(Catholic) so I guess i'll chime in.
As far as I know, there is no verse in the bible that says OBE's are evil or even good. However there are a few verses which seem to refer to OBE's and varies aspects of them.
Whether or not a belief system affects ones spiritual development is, as far as im concerned, specific to the individual. Some people treat their Christianity as just a label that they can put on a form or survey. Others take it too far and in their zeal, twist the message into a way to hate those who are not Christian, or who are not Christian enough. For these people spiritual development is the least of their concerns(or a solution to their problems perhaps). For me truth is truth and and since i've had obe's, and i've experienced intense moments related to my faith, I can't deny anything.
Now, as a Christian im "supposed" to tell you to be a Christian, but I can't do that unless you really want to have Christ as your savior, and if you truly can hold to a strict code. The last thing Christianity needs(especially at this time) is another fundamentalist or recreational Christian.
And thats my opinion.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king.
I do not think the Bible flat out mentions OBEs anywhere, but I do think that some of the things that occured in the Bible took place on the astral. A good example of this is Revelations. In fact I believe that most religious people of Christianity and other religions were astral travelers who were reporting what they had experienced from their perspective. Fasting and meditating is commonly mentioned in the Bible. This sets the stage for having an OBE, so if this was a common practice I am sure that they have had them every now and then.
As far as you choosing a religion, well that is up to you. I can give you my personal views but that does not mean you have to share them. I personally do not like organized religion. I think it can hinder your spiritual progress. I think that everything you need is within you. This does not mean that religious texts are completely worthless. There is wisdom to be found within the Christian Bible,as well as other religious texts I am sure but I have not read them. To me I think it is better not to have any strong beliefs about any god/gods/goddesses or the afterlife. For one, you could be wrong and when faced with this after physical death you might find it hard to deal with being wrong, or get caught in a false heaven. There are so many different religions in the world, why subscribe to just one? Is there one that is completely right and all the others wrong? Are they all wrong, or are they all partly right? I suggest you explore for yourself and make your own choices.
All religions put you in a box. Please remember this! When you are in a box, you must reject what is outside of the box. This can hamper your understanding of what truly IS.
I believe in Jesus. He is alive and well on the Astral, probably real sad about what the Church has become. Anyway! Many people might conclude that this makes me a Christian, but it doesn't. Because to be a Christian, I have to reject everything that falls outside of the Christian box. And I just won't do that.
My advice? Try to transcend religion. Study it, care about it, debate it, try to understand it, and most of all, LOVE. LOVE LOVE LOVE. And PRAY. It does bring answers!
In your OBE experiences you will see and feel many things. Let these experiences shape you. Try hard not to let preconceived notions twist the Truth. Easier said than done, but it's worth it.
Oh, and for what its worth, meditating does take you inside of yourself. But the universe awaits you there.
tisha
There are two Christian branches that actively meditate, the Quakers and the Greek Orthodox Church. In the Benedictine and Cistercian Orders of the Catholic church they meditate in the "contemplative prayer" method. The Society of Friends shares a building with the Zen Center in my town.
Prayer and meditation are the same thing, as long as a person tries to concentrate wholly on the divine. Begging for favors and absent minded prayer doesn't do much good.
There is a branch of Hindu yoga called Bhakti Yoga. It is centered on union with God through love and devotion. A person cultivates such all-consuming love for their deity they give themselves up entirely, and negate the ego. What I find interesting is some of the "born agains" out there have done exactly that. They have no tolerance for Hinduism, but they are practicing a yoga India discovered 5,000 years ago.
a.k.
Hello K2sixx and everyone else!
I consider myself a disciple of Jesus Christ and look to Him in all things as a guide and an example. I know that what we have termed "OBE" is something recognized by true Christians today. There are several mentions of "OBE's" in the scriptures and there would be more if the prophets/writers considered it to be something strange, but they didn't! It is today's society that looks for "proof" and "mentions" of these things when in fact they are age old naturally occuring spiritual phenomenon. I agree with Fallnangel in that John recieved the majority of this revelations in what we would contemporarily deem "the astral". Had they known we would have began closing our eyes so tightly today they probably would have spelled these things out better- but it's good they didn't because the best way to discover these "hidden mysteries" is to first follow the simple cammandment of "love one another as I have loved you". Since most cannot do this they of course cannot open their eyes to the "true" reality. There is such thing as spiritual evolution and sadly our technology and apathy is increasing the already astronomical amount of spiritually lethargic people remain in a virtual "spiritual ice age" of their own creation. Throw in violent media, pornography and the like and some of the apathetic turn to pure evil. God help us.
-Daniel
fides quaerens intellectum
Hi k2sixx,
I agree with Tisha and will say that religions are all deforming the truth in a certain way. Why would you need a religion to tell you what to believe? Not being religious does not mean that you don't believe in God, that you can not pray.
And I think that if God did not want us to have OBEs, we just would not be able to.
Valérie
Thought I'd throw my two cents worth in here -
So many good points and so many here with common views. I think most people on this forum have a similar perspective and an open mind about spiritual matters.
Fallnangel77 and Tisha are both so spot on! I can't say that I've ever seen any good come out of organised religion. Just look at the fighting that has gone on in the middle east for millennia over religious differences. Especially when the essence of both the christian and muslim faiths are LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
I call myself a Christian - I call Christ my saviour and I believe in the teachings of Jesus, but I don't believe in a lot of the restrictions imposed by the Bible or the churches. These I believe are the words of men. Jesus himself was far more relaxed about things. I actually call myself a non-religios christian.
Tisha, If you believe in Jesus and believe in loving others, this makes you just as much a diciple of Christ, if not more so, than those who stand up preaching in front of the TV camera's ever Sunday morning. After all, this is all He really wanted of us - believe and love. It's men who wrote a lot of rules and regulations "in the name of God" that seemed to what to make things complicated.
To this point I don't really believe Christ himself has any objections to OBEs. I have prayed a lot on this subject. The basic answer I got is that there is nothing wrong with OBEs, but there are more beneficial things for me to work on in terms of my spiritual development. OBEs are part of the fun stuff, as well as being a good indicator of my progress. This is a message that my spirit guide had specifically for me (I do believe he speaks on behalf of God when I pray), so don't take to heart my views on its benefit or importance.
Unless they are particularly open minded, most church leaders will tell you that Astral Projection is not a good thing, or even the work of the devil depending on how fundamentalist they are.
As to meditation, this is an integral part of christianity. Meditating on the word of god, or meditating in prayer is quite important in the christian faith. I was only thtinking about it this morning. I wonder how my old christian friends would view the fact that I do forms of Chakra meditation each day. I personally can't see anything wrong with it. It is simply exercising our astral body. God gave us this body, both physical and astral. I doub't He would be upset with us wanting to look after it.
Faith and belief should be a personal choice, with nobody telling what is right or wrong, it should be what suits you. God made all of us different. I now feel the way Tisha does. I won't have my beliefs put in a box. God it too big for that. The energy he has put in this world is too much for that. There are too many options that god has made available to us for our spiritual development to be contained by one doctorine or dogma. Christianity is the foundation of my belief, but not the extent of it.
k2ixx - I wish you all good things in your spiritual search.
James S
(Fate amenable to change)
I thank you all for your input.
If you are interested in my feelings and intentions at this moment, they are not the least bit complicated. I will work towards meeting my Spirit Guide and figure things out from there. Upon the first meeting, and through the vast number of future meetings, I will eventually discover my truth for myself. Again, thank you all.
James S,
Though OBE can be fun stuff, do not over look its benifits for spiritual development. You say that there are other things that are more beneficial for you to work on, well you know yourself best and I do not want to put anything you are doing down. I just want you to think about the possibilities to explore while out of body, if you are able to do this. I have heard, though not had the chance to try it yet, that meditating while out is much better than on the physical. Try practicing your spiritual development while out and see what happens.
There is a good book called The Secret Of The Soul by William Buhlman for those who what a more spiritual look at OBEs.
Hi Fallnangel77,
You're right that OBEs are benificial, I hadn't thought of using an OBE to improve meditation - sounds like a good idea. As I said, don't take my comments to heart. My guide had pointed out to me that I was starting to become a little too focused on achieving an OBE, where I need to be concentrating on developing elswhere first, then use AP more as a "benchmark" for my spirit & energy development. My main gift is empathic telepathy, and I've been somewhat neglecting this.
Thanks for the book ref - sounds like a different take on the subject.
James S
(Fate amenable to change)
James S-
You said two things that I would like to comment on. One thing you said I think was dead wrong and the other I thought had a lot of validity.
First the thing I thought you said that is dead wrong is the following:
"I can't say that I've ever seen any good come out of organised religion"
I was saddened by this comment because it reflects the general feeling most people have towards organized religion, and I can understand why- at least to a point. Although many individuals have and continue to do horrendous things in the name of religion, you must never forget that there are millions of individuals who associate themselves with various organized religions who are wonderful people who do wonderful things, and God loves and supports them.
Here are just a few things I know which are done in the name of organized religion: Mother Theresa, the Catholic nun, dedicated her entire life to service and embodied every good attribute I can think of. I know an old woman in Kentucky who happens to be a Christian who drives around her town picking up donations and then gives them to poor individuals.
The Church of Jesus Christ, of which I am a member, sends truck loads and plane loads of goods to impoversihed countries and to cities that are struck by natural disaster and then they try not to get media coverage in order toinsure that no one think they do these things to be seen by the world.
I have a friend who is a proetestant and he and his family make blankets and have food drives- and all of this is done as a charity. I know of many other churches and individuals, many of them non-Christian, who are organized and effective in spreading good. Of course there are many people who use organized religion as a wat to disguise their inflated egos and destructive appetities, but I also know many individuals like that who are associated with "new age" ideas.
The other thing you said, which I thought was valid and important for many individuals in this forum was the following:
"To this point I don't really believe Christ himself has any objections to OBEs. I have prayed a lot on this subject. The basic answer I got is that there is nothing wrong with OBEs, but there are more beneficial things for me to work on in terms of my spiritual development. "
While OBE's are incredible and vastly important for our spiritual progress and understanding, I fear many are "looking beyond the mark" and trying to atain states of cosciousness that they are not ready for. Also, besides meditation and prayer, there is a lot we need to do on our feet such as making friends, helping individuals who are struggling in life and are lost in the quagmire of the world- people who worship money, drugs, sex, etc. These people need us and we need to find ways to touch their lives. We also need to dedicate oursleves to raising our families and if we don't have families then we need to find our calling in this life.
I would love to go on, but I am quite iill and it's hard for me to read/sit up...
I thank you all for your ideas and opinions and I send my love to all who participate in this open, positive enviornment in which we can share our ideas and perspectives on life, liberty and the pursuit of OBE! [(:] <--if this doesn't look like a smile, it's supposed to be!
-Dan
fides quaerens intellectum
OBE's or meditation should not hinder any form of spiritual development. About 10 years ago I used to go on various catholic retreats where the lead priest would actually encourage group meditation.
Interestingly enough.....the techniques he encouraged were identical to those described in Robert Bruce's book for manipulating the energy body.
James S-
"I can't say that I've ever seen any good come out of organised religion"
I do not agree with you totally on this. I think that religion can be good, though not necessarily the best, in giving people a place to look for something beyond the physical. The problem is as Tisha said "All religions put you in a box." Religions, most anyway, can point you in a direct but then seem to block you in and hinder spiritual growth. I am not saying that you cannot grow spiritually and still believe in a religion, but I do think that if you follow the set rules of what is accepted in the religion you will eventually stop. This is what happened with me. I use to go to Christian churches and be a pretty strong believer. Then things seem to stop. I had questions that could not be answered by the religion. I started feeling boxed in. I was told that I should always strive to continue growing spiritually, but I felt I could no longer do that inside of religion.
James S-
"I don't really believe Christ himself has any objections to OBEs"
I do not think Christ objects to many things, other than being immoral. It is my opinion that Jesus came to to earth not to start a new religion, but to get people away from religion. I think that his actual intent was to make people more spiritual, not more religious. Look at what his teaches are really trying to get across: to not get caught up in laws and regulations, to love each other, to get away from materialism, and to realize and look for the world beyond the physical, to name a few.
Getting off track a little here: Has any one read The Complete Jesus, or maybe The Complete Bible? I am not sure about the title, I might have it wrong. The book is suppose to contain other books that are not included in the bible. From what I have heard these are pretty spiritual writtings, like Jesus teaching that God is not in any temples but is in everything, everywhere, at all times. Of coarse those in power did not like this I am sure as they would want people to come to them to get to God.
EDIT: I forgot to add that I have not read this book, but I saw it a few years ago and now wish I had bought if for no other reason than to just see what it had to say.
Sorry guys. Maybey I was being a bit absolute in my statement about organised religions. Yes, there has been good things come out of religions. Unfortunately also many bad things too.
Fallnangel77 - from your comments I'd say we've both been through the same thing with church. I left for pretty much the same reasons you did. I also completely agree with you regarding Jesus not trying to start a new religion. After really studying his words and his ways of doing things, I also came to this conclusion. Jesus observed all the laws, but he wasn't "religious"
The last church I attended was the Salvation Army. I was an Adherent (one step below Soldier) for some years. Their ministers (or Officers) are as intolerant of spiritual ways outside of their own doctorine as any other major religious body. This I believe is not the will of God at work, but the will of man.
If you have found a church that is not intolerant of or narrow minded towards spiritual ways other than what is defined by it's doctorine, and genuinely shows an unconditional love to all people as Jesus intended, you have done well.
It is important though to question the beliefs of spiritual leaders from time to time, and not fall into the trap of blind faith. This leads to zealotry, which leads to religious wars and other atrocities. Ha! that kind of sounds like anger leads to fear, fear leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side :)
James S
(Fate amenable to change)
This quote from the gospel of thomas(gnostic) seems to fit things well:
Jesus said: If those who lead you say unto you: Behold, the Kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will be before you. If they say unto you: It is in the sea, then the fish will be before you. But the Kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then shall you be known, and you shall know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if ye do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king.
Although I do not beileve in God, I read something interesting from a Christian perspective. It was called "Practicing the Presence of God". It is very simple. No matter what you do or where you are, keep in mind that God is with you. Without really believing in God it is hard to say how it would feel to be with God, but those of you who do believe in God might be able to clarify that.
Hi k2sixx,
The Bible has at least one reference to astral travel in II Corinthians 12:2-5. St. Paul actually used the phrase out of body, in describing a man he once knew.
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago. (Whether he was in the body or out, I cannot tell. God knoweth:) such as one caught up in the third heaven.
And I knew such a man (whether in the body or out, I cannot tell. God knoweth:).
How that he was caught up into Paradise and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Of such a man I will glory, for he is truly close to God. Yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
Peace be with you, Robin
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2c2fq/index2.htm
"36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." -Matthew 22:36-40.
Do what you will, but do it in love: i am sure that this is what God wants his people to know.
~kakkarot
Secret of Secrets
Kakkarot: Your quote was what I was thinking about all along my reading of the many replies to this interesting message.
I agree with the one who said that religions CAN put you in a box, and with the other one who said that religions CAN stop your progression.
The thing is, it depends upon how you use the wisdom found in many religions and how deep you go. To me in Christianity, the most important message is the one quoted by Kakkarot... a message paradoxically conflicting with the strict moral codes fundamentalists want you to obey to. True christians are meant to love. Others live in fear.
I strongly believe that all important religions were started by great spiritual masters well in advance of their contemporaries. What remains of their teachings has been to some degree modified by translators, oral traditions, power and committees of men debating. In short, man has always been tempted to make rules and dogma out of those teachings... hence the box.
But if one is serious about his study of religions, I believe you can learn a great deal by searching for the initial teachings. This alone can bring you a long way. After all, many now believe in reincarnation and karma (originally mostly eastern beliefs) but still think of Jesus (western prophet) as one of the wisest men who ever lived and one of the best inspirational examples of what anyone could achieve and create with true faith in his own abilities. You can also learn a great deal about dreams just by reading parts of the Old Testament. One of the earliest accounts of an NDE could easilly be the Damascus experience of Paul. etc etc etc.
So it really depends upon the openness with which you approach religion. Personally they've given me the first tools I needed on my spiritual journey.
Sylvain
That was really well put Sylvain!
I tend to knock the church a bit, and still feel disgruntled at the treatmet I and friends of mine received. But bottom line, it gave me a spiritual foundation that I didn't have before. Before then I'd had experiences with the supernatural, but no real way of comming to grips with them. I've gone past the dogma now to build on that foundation, and found there is room in my faith for a belief in Jesus, karma, psychic powers etc.
James S
(Fate amenable to change)
quote:
Originally posted by fallnangel77:
Getting off track a little here: Has any one read The Complete Jesus, or maybe The Complete Bible? I am not sure about the title, I might have it wrong. The book is suppose to contain other books that are not included in the bible. From what I have heard these are pretty spiritual writtings, like Jesus teaching that God is not in any temples but is in everything, everywhere, at all times. Of coarse those in power did not like this I am sure as they would want people to come to them to get to God.
[hl] EDIT: I forgot to add that I have not read this book, but I saw it a few years ago and now wish I had bought if for no other reason than to just see what it had to say.
Are you thinking of "The Other Bible"? It contains the Jewish Apochrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as some of the old/new testament era writings that were not cannoninzed into the Bible. I've been thinking about getting it to read for reference.
There might also be a book titled "The Bible Jesus Read" out there that is similiar ... minus the New Testament era writings.
I haven't read either of these yet.
Cheers!
Greg Taylor :)
Greetings. I 'll tell you what I know with my five years of bible school.
OBE's in the bible.
Rev 1:10 "I was in the spirit on the lords day...." and goes on to describe his astral travel.
1Cor 12 speaks of spiritual gifts including the "discerning of spirits" in verse 10. In chapter 13 verses 1 and 2 he speaks of his own gifts and in verse 12 alludes to learning his prophecies through scrying which was commonly done with dark glass. "For now we see through a glass darkly..."
Magic appears often in the bible from the "casting of lots" (runes) to predict fortunes, to the spell which Jacob cast on his father in laws sheep in order to make off with Rachel and Leah.
The official Christian stance on meditation and OBE is that it's dangerous and an open invitation to demon attack. Little do they know all of us do it every night anyway.
I learned enough about Christianity to know it's mostly plagiarized from older religions so now II practice Wicca which is much more helpful to me and makes much more sense. Also it is approximately 3,500 years older than Christianity.
"The official Christian stance on meditation and OBE is that it's dangerous and an open invitation to demon attack. Little do they know all of us do it every night anyway."
There is no "official" Christian stance on meditation. However different denominations within Christianity have their own opinions on meditation and I would think fundamentalist sects would think meditation a bad thing. It's important to note that Jesus meditated.
"I learned enough about Christianity to know it's mostly plagiarized from older religions so now II practice Wicca which is much more helpful to me and makes much more sense. Also it is approximately 3,500 years older than Christianity."
I study Wicca as an outsider so forgive my ignorance but wasn't it created in the 1950's by Gerald Gardner?
From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken:
The crownless again shall be king.
What do you mean by "official Christian stance"- you must mean a certain group, church, organization, etc.
Although most Christians don't know much about OBE, etc. I can promise you, as a Christian, that there really aren't any official views- the only views that are official are those that come from God and the last time I checked, there really aren't that many Christians who are truly in touch with God nor themselves.
-Dan
fides quaerens intellectum
Once more into the fray....
Leyla's pretty well got it right on the stance of Christian leaders towards OBE's. It may not be an "official" stance as such, but close enough to make no odds. They just don't like it. In all the churches I've attended from the fundamental Anglicans to the raving pentacostals, they all have pretty much the same view towards Astral Projection. Many times have I heard it said by ministers or church elders that if you purposfully leave your body its an open invitation for demonic possession.
It's all a matter of semantics. If you call it a trance or OBE, its bad. If you call it meditatation (esp. on Gods word), or the gift of visions, its good.
James S
(Fate amenable to change)
>I study Wicca as an outsider so forgive my ignorance but wasn't it created >in the 1950's by Gerald Gardner?
Well I suppose I can forgive your ignorance just this one time. In Neolithic (7,000-3,500 BC) Old Europe first developed the Mystery tradition of the Mother Earth Goddess and God of The Hunt and Harvest. It began in the Mediterranean regions and moved across Europe merging with the Etruscans and then the Celts, etc. They were an agricultural and peaceful people.
Very simply put, it was the religion the native people of Europe had before the Romans invaded and brought Christianity.
It couldn't quite be stamped out entirely however, and many Christian holidays including Christmas and Easter spring from the older pagan holidays, also many local gods and goddesses were absorbed and called "Saint's" e.g. St. Bridget was the goddess Bridget (also called Bride or Breed) of the Celts.
To say that Gardner invented it, or even re-invented it wouldn't be correct, because it never really went away in the first place.
>There is no "official" Christian stance on meditation.
Heh heh. I'm sure individual Christians might deviate, but I suggest you speak to any pastor/preacher/priest/deacon on the matter. Unless it's a unitarian church he will inform you in no uncertain terms that it is all devil worship. He might even arrange to have hands laid on you and the demons called out.
quote:
Leyla
There is no "official" Christian stance on meditation.
Heh heh. I'm sure individual Christians might deviate, but I suggest you speak to any pastor/preacher/priest/deacon on the matter. Unless it's a unitarian church he will inform you in no uncertain terms that it is all devil worship. He might even arrange to have hands laid on you and the demons called out.
Oh yeah, have you ever got that right!
That has happened to me more times than I care to remember!! Just couldn't seem to be one of the sheep on that one. Had to keep going off and trying to explore other spiritual ideas. Smack... Bad wayward backslider, Bad!
James S
(Fate amenable to change)
A few Christian's gave this following definition for meditation: retreating within yourself.
Also, he denied the fact that OBE's had any relation with the Bible.
Now, I wouldn't mind finding a religion. Christianity or Catholicism were the only options for me for most of my childhood. I'm still young, but I don't know if I will ever undertake a belief system (it may hinder spiritual development?). So, I am posting this for some comments on this Christian comment.