A different view on OBE/AP: an article.

[Xetrov]

Hey Tom thanks for your reply it has made some point clear to me. You are correct in the following:

Well in this area I think we still have some misunderstandings. Being really out of body and being totally free, why should they belong together? I mean you now really sit in front of your computer, does that mean you are completely free? I don't associate Out of body with being totally free.

I think we neglected the most important factor of our discussion which is:
What is "You" what is "Self" what is "Spirit"? the question whether we really leave our body is dependent on this definitions. If we do not understand the same thing as "Self" we never will be able to reach common ground. In my view "Self" is conscious, awayness, there for I actually would say: when I sit on a bench daydreaming of my girlfriend I'm out of my body. This may sound odd, but it is a matter of viewpoint.

Now, how do you define "Self" or "spirit" ? Do you believe in a solid entity which could be labeled "soul" or maybe you say "self" is "all your memory, your awayness, your physical body and your current conscious" then of course you can only really leave your body when dead. You see this question is I believe the most important. If we discuss whether or not one leaves his body we have to know exactly what we mean by "YOU", What are "YOU"?
If I had realized that point earlier I would have brought it up and saved us some time, sorry about that.

Ok I will try to explain my view on this as clear as possible. First of all I strongly suspect there is more to our consciousness then a mere physical body. ESP, near death experiences, working with energy etc show to me that most likely there is a duality: a physical body and connected to it, the spirit. With that last word I mean the entire collection of non physical substance (not (yet) explained by science), that exists as part of an individual. It would be interesting indeed to know for sure what this exactly is. Is it like Bruce claims, possible to separate different "bodies" and thereby transferring different "copies" of consciousness into multiple bodies? To me, consciousness (and indeed the body-spirit system generating our consciousness also) is an integrated whole and not dividable into different parts that seem to lose connection to each other, as Bruce says. I do agree that splitting consciousness is possible (as in ESP, remote sensing), but when you do this all parts of consciousness stay linked together (it stays integrated as one whole), so what actually happens is we are expanding our consciousness beyond its ordinary physical boundaries.  That is also why I do not call the Bruce OBE's 'real' OBE's because consciousness stays integrated and at all times linked to the physical body. To me an out of body experience is the equivalent of a NDE because here the entire spirit is set free of the physical body, and set free in the astral (which does not happen at RB type OBE, you are "merely" sensing  the astral here. Its like being in a house with windows looking at the astral outside, you are still linked to the house (physical body)).

That said I can, however, imagine the following viewpoint of the people here: when going into a RB type OBE we clearly (certainly those who are quite advanced at it) experience "astral phenomena" (By ESP, but what exactly "astral phenomena" are and what matters fall under this definition, is a new discussion again).So if we experience astral phenomena and these are not part of our physical bodies, then we clearly experience something from beyond our body, thus labeling the experience OBE. Besides this, if we define OBE as the following (as a lot of people seem to do here) "any moment where our consciousness is not aware of our physical body and/or its current local surroundings", then indeed a RB type OBE definitely classifies as OBE. It has already been said that in this case we are almost always out of our bodies or perhaps even never really "in" there at the first place. To me however being in the body means that our consciousness is connected to and/or generated by it.

Imagine the following theoretical situation however: as human beings we keep evolving, our awareness and consciousness of ourselves and of the universe keeps growing (a likely possibility i think). When this happens there will be a point when your definition of OBE will be no longer of relevance, since our awareness by then always includes our physical body and our physical location. Well just a thought anyway....

This whole argument is based on the (possible false) premiss that the dream state must be present in the brain in order to experience OBE's. Thats why I said one had to do tests to explore this.
For example somebody that is very good in OBE staying outside the body until Brainwaves indicate "No dreams" then a Physical sign is revealed and then the person must describe this after he woke up. But this kind of experiments are way too hard to do.

Would be a very nice test to perform indeed, and i strongly believe the premiss isn't false. If evidence would show the contrary however, I will yield and admit that all of you are right after all

Were did RB state it is possible to induce a OBE during deep sleep? I wouldn't be surprised if your viewpoint is true, but don't see the relevance for our argument whether we can leave our body our not.

I think our disagreement here stems again from our differences on what OBE is, I hope this is cleared up by now. But still i don't see why a RB type OBE would not be possible in deep sleep if what Bruce says is true. However if I am right it (strongly, I think) points to the idea that LD + ESP can explain all RB type OBE. Perhaps I could ask Bruce's opinion of this matter and see what he comes up with.

....how would you define the line between LD and OBE, How do you recognize it yourself when having the experience?

I would be extremely interested in knowing how any of you know the difference for sure. Perhaps it is a sliding scale indeed, but what then is needed to classify an experience as an OBE?

Oh and Hi, Catmeow. I have a small question for you too:

I'm fairly certain that I'm active "astrally" pretty much every night, because my astral experiences reflect into my dreams which are usually of flying, swimming, running effortlessly great distances, leaping effortlessly, skiing, spinning, moving at high speed in various different ways. These dreams all have a very special quality which distinguishes them from ordinary dreams. Quite often I just float around in my dreams, and then I realise I'm dreaming (because I'm floating). But as I say, these are all "physical/etheric" memories. The actual astral memory is lost when I wake up.

This is purely speculation in my opinion. How could you ever know that ordinary dreams and those special dreams don't have the same source (possibly subconscious)? Why does it have to do anything with being "astrally active" (what do  you mean by this?) I have those kind of special dreams too all the time and I don't even consider them to be special anymore (although i do still enjoy them a lot). I'm just curious as to how you see these matters.

Well so far this (short...?..) reply of mine

[Sampson]

Hi!

I would be extremely interested in knowing how any of you know the difference for sure.

All of my out of body experiences have so far been into what is called the RTZ (Real Time Zone) below are a some of the symptoms and attributes that I feel separate this experience from a dream for me:

Precursors to the projection are clear crisp sounds that resemble ripping Velcro and a sound similar to somebody walking on a gravel path - I experience sounds in my dreams but these are quite unlike the above and do not share their clarity.

I always exit through my head - I never experience this strange phenomenon when I dream.

I always have the same dimensions out of body, which are about the size of a tennis ball - In the dream state my body feels as if it has the same dimensions as it does in the physical, although on occasion this can change.

I always project into my bedroom - I rarely have dreams about my bedroom and when I do they are never as clear and vivid nor as simple and ordinary as when I leave my body. Another note here is that I have had an RTZ projection whilst staying away from home in a hotel, I projected out of body directly into the room in which I was staying.

Awareness and sensitivity to my environment is extremely heightened in all aspects - Although I experience my senses in the dream state they seem dulled in comparison to when I am out of the body.

Projection ends with a blackout - My dreams either tend to merge or fade into the next or I awake naturally after a REM/Dream cycle.

I suppose one could argue that an experience with characteristics of the above could be said to be a 'special kind of recurring dream' with very specific qualities.

I have had lucid dreams where I have projected too, these dreams served as a good comparison to what I would call my true RTZ experiences. The lucid dream projections shared all of the characteristics of a real projection but were much more toned down and felt false and a weak copy in contrast.

In these lucid dream projections it's almost as if I am applying my own interpretation of how I feel the projection experience should follow rather than experiencing the associated phenomena as a separate accompaniment to the true experience. The lucid dream projections also took place in locations other than my bedroom, these locations were vague and unfamiliar and very dream like.

I feel that dreams always serve a purpose of some kind, but when I project I tend to just sit in my tennis ball like form near my head, feet or in another part of the room in the quiet and just peacfully observe, this is quite unlike my dreams and is a very conscious experience.

I feel that I know the difference between the two for sure mainly through having the experience itself, I wish I could share that feeling with others but unfortunately I can't   .

Cheers

S

[catmeow]

Hi Sampson

The lucid dream projections shared all of the characteristics of a real projection but were much more toned down and felt false and a weak copy in contrast.

In these lucid dream projections it's almost as if I am applying my own interpretation of how I feel the projection experience should follow rather than experiencing the associated phenomena as a separate accompaniment to the true experience. The lucid dream projections also took place in locations other than my bedroom, these locations were vague and unfamiliar and very dream like.

Precisely.  I believe you are having genuine RTZ projections into your bedroom and you can tell the difference between LD and OBE.  As I said before, if it feels like a dream it probably IS a dream.  If it feels real it probably IS real.  Dreams and OBE are different experiences, we should be aware of that!  IMO LD is a private reality, whilst OBE is a public reality - a true reality!

Thanks for your input!
Good look with the RTZ projections!

catmeow

[Tombo]

Hi!

I would be extremely interested in knowing how any of you know the difference for sure.

All of my out of body experiences have so far been into what is called the RTZ (Real Time Zone) below are a some of the symptoms and attributes that I feel separate this experience from a dream for me:

Precursors to the projection are clear crisp sounds that resemble ripping Velcro and a sound similar to somebody walking on a gravel path - I experience sounds in my dreams but these are quite unlike the above and do not share their clarity.

I always exit through my head - I never experience this strange phenomenon when I dream.

I always have the same dimensions out of body, which are about the size of a tennis ball - In the dream state my body feels as if it has the same dimensions as it does in the physical, although on occasion this can change.

I always project into my bedroom - I rarely have dreams about my bedroom and when I do they are never as clear and vivid nor as simple and ordinary as when I leave my body. Another note here is that I have had an RTZ projection whilst staying away from home in a hotel, I projected out of body directly into the room in which I was staying.

Awareness and sensitivity to my environment is extremely heightened in all aspects - Although I experience my senses in the dream state they seem dulled in comparison to when I am out of the body.

Projection ends with a blackout - My dreams either tend to merge or fade into the next or I awake naturally after a REM/Dream cycle.

I suppose one could argue that an experience with characteristics of the above could be said to be a 'special kind of recurring dream' with very specific qualities.

I have had lucid dreams where I have projected too, these dreams served as a good comparison to what I would call my true RTZ experiences. The lucid dream projections shared all of the characteristics of a real projection but were much more toned down and felt false and a weak copy in contrast.

In these lucid dream projections it's almost as if I am applying my own interpretation of how I feel the projection experience should follow rather than experiencing the associated phenomena as a separate accompaniment to the true experience. The lucid dream projections also took place in locations other than my bedroom, these locations were vague and unfamiliar and very dream like.

I feel that dreams always serve a purpose of some kind, but when I project I tend to just sit in my tennis ball like form near my head, feet or in another part of the room in the quiet and just peacfully observe, this is quite unlike my dreams and is a very conscious experience.

I feel that I know the difference between the two for sure mainly through having the experience itself, I wish I could share that feeling with others but unfortunately I can't   .

Cheers

S

Nice Post, I do not have much time right now to reply.

Sampson would you mind copie your post and post it again in the following thread in the dream forum, I started? It would fit perfectly there too, especially in reply to Paker7. Thanks
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15487

[Sampson]

Hi Everyone!

Good look with the RTZ projections!

Thanks catmeow!  

Sampson would you mind copie your post and post it again in the following thread in the dream forum, I started? It would fit perfectly there too, especially in reply to Paker7. Thanks

Hi tombodenmann! I have copied my post over to your thread in the dream forum as you requested.

Cheers

S

[catmeow]

Hi Tom

This is getting tough!  I'm sorry but I missed your reply to my post...  not sure how, but I did... so here are some answers:

And btw your English is much better than my Swiss (and Xetrov's English is much better than my Dutch!)

Hehe, don't hesistate to try though...

Not a chance! lol

[Well your viewpoint with the merging states is close to mine, how would you define the line between LD abd OBE, How do you recognize it yourself when having the experience?

That's tough.  In the RTZ I think it's probably simpler, because you can check your immediate environment with what it really should look like.  This is an especially good test if you go outside into the street, make some observations and then come back and wake up.  You can then compare these observations with what is really going on in the street, eg did you see the cars parked there properly? was the weather correct? etc

Most of my experiences fail this test, ie there is simply too much fantasy for me to consider them to be real experiences, so I assume these are just an internal dream experience.  Only occasionally has there been a good correlation.  On these occasions, the experiences also felt much more realistic, than in the other cases.  So these would perhaps be OBE's and the rest were LD's.

If the LD/OBE is in an unknown environment then this test can not be performed.  In this case we can only rely upon our own feelings, ie whether it feels real or dreamlike, whether we slip in and out of dream consciousness, how critically is our mind working, how complete are our faculties, our memory etc.

Interesting I gave some comments on the problems of definitions in the reply to Xetrov. What do you mean by subjective and objective?

I'm glad you asked that!

My definition of subjective is "private" and objective is "public".  In other words a subjective experience is a personal, private experience, not shared by others, occuring in a private reality.  On the other hand an objective experience is a public experience, occurring in some sort of shared or concensus reality.   There has to be a very strong degree of concensus for something to be classified as "objective", in other words a lot of people have to share the experience, not just two (as in the dream I shared with my mother).

The physical world is truly objective, since we all agree on it.  By and large our dreams are subjective because we tend not to share them with anyone.  Occasionally two people may share a dream, but this can be explained as two private dreams linked together by ESP.  So a shared dream like this would probably rate as "subjective" by my definition, because it isn't shared by everyone.

Hmmm I sense that you demean alittle the LD-experience itself, There are very good books on this for example "Dreamgates" by Robert Moss

Yes, maybe I do demean it a little, I'll get his book and read it! (I will)

But there seems to be a very thin red line between them, which nobody can really gasp.

Yes, it's a difficult area.

Ever since the age of about 15 I started to practice LD.

How?

It sounds odd, but I did this by reading, reading, reading....  I became so obsessed by LD and OBE that I read every book I could find on it.  When you live, eat and breathe a subject it stays with you day and night.  So when I went to sleep and started to dream I would just become lucid automatically.  Not every night but perhaps once or twice a week.  I just developed this conditioned reflex.  

I also had other techniques.  The most successful was (and still is) to catch myself waking up in the morning, and then simply go back to sleep, but remain lucid.  Once again, to do this you have to train yourself to wake up slowly.  It's no good if bang! you wake up suddenly and are fully alert.  You have to wake up slowly and become aware in the "mind awake body asleep" state.  You can then enter the LD state easily.

Strangely, by far the easiest way (for me) to do this is to go through an "exit" procedure, ie to imagine myself floating into the air and then landing on the floor.  When I used to do this the only sense I had at this time was one of movement.  After landing I would feel for the wall behind me, then feel for my bedroom door.  I would then actually open the door and step out of my bedroom.  At this point I usually obtained full vision, hearing and all the other senses.  Nowadays I can actually see whilst I float up to the ceiling.  It's a very curious sensation.  I have several other "exit" techniques to use if this one fails.

I must admit that it is curious that the best way for me to get into an LD is to use an OBE exit technique, but this is the case.  And yet I claim that this leads to an LD rather than an OBE!  But to me the resulting experience is too fantasy-laden to classify as "real".  Well usually that is.  It's still a great experience though.  I do think the reason for this is incomplete memory recollection ("memory download" - RB) as described in my earlier post.

other LD-dreamers said to me that if I would Try to remember my OBE's during LD's the memory would easily come, maybe You should try this, I haven't so far.

That's an interesting idea, I'll give it a try!

It's VERY late here in the UK, I'm tired....!
catmeow

[Tombo]

Reply to Xetrov

Ok I will try to explain my view on this as clear as possible. First of all I strongly suspect there is more to our consciousness then a mere physical body. ESP, near death experiences, working with energy etc show to me that most likely there is a duality: a physical body and connected to it, the spirit.
With that last word I mean the entire collection of non physical substance (not (yet) explained by science), that exists as part of an individual. It would be interesting indeed to know for sure what this exactly is.

A lot of native religions actually work with 3 Parts: Body, Spirit, Soul, just a thought.....

Is it like Bruce claims, possible to separate different "bodies" and thereby transferring different "copies" of consciousness into multiple bodies? To me, consciousness (and indeed the body-spirit system generating our consciousness also) is an integrated whole and not dividable into different parts that seem to lose connection to each other, as Bruce says. I do agree that splitting consciousness is possible (as in ESP, remote sensing), but when you do this all parts of consciousness stay linked together (it stays integrated as one whole), so what actually happens is we are expanding our consciousness beyond its ordinary physical boundaries.

From what I know this seems not to be the case (unfortunately), at least not if we assume the Mind-split-effect to be real. Now, I havent experienced it, but I guess there are people here on the board that have.
If this is true, then you cannot say that conscious just expands cause that would mean you must be conscious of all "parts" of it at the same time (by definition) which is not the case. If there are really multiple copies of conscious possible, operating at the same time, which are not aware of each other, then I would call it "a splitting of conscious" if that is not possible I would call it a "Expansion of conscious". However, I do not know how many people have experienced the mind-split-effect.

Although I would prefer an expansion of conscious, like you describe it, cause it sounds more "calming" If you put Soul into the equation one could come up with the following scenario:
Conscious, Spirit (like you defined it) and Body are generated by Soul. Spirit and Conscious can indeed split into apparently independent parts but the Soul this connected with all  this parts at anytime, So we in a way stay integrated as one whole like you said. Well just a thought anyway.

 

That is also why I do not call the Bruce OBE's 'real' OBE's because consciousness stays integrated and at all times linked to the physical body.

o.k. I see. I, on the contrary, would still call it real, even if this is the case.

To me an out of body experience is the equivalent of a NDE because here the entire spirit is set free of the physical body, and set free in the astral

Well but this would lead to a dangerous situation, somebody could kill you physically, you could get lost in the astral, other entities could take your body.....all this can only be prevented if there remains a connection between spirit and body.

That said I can, however, imagine the following viewpoint of the people here: when going into a RB type OBE we clearly (certainly those who are quite advanced at it) experience "astral phenomena" (By ESP, but what exactly "astral phenomena" are and what matters fall under this definition, is a new discussion again).So if we experience astral phenomena and these are not part of our physical bodies, then we clearly experience something from beyond our body, thus labeling the experience OBE.

O.k. I can agree with that.

Besides this, if we define OBE as the following (as a lot of people seem to do here) "any moment where our consciousness is not aware of our physical body and/or its current local surroundings", then indeed a RB type OBE definitely classifies as OBE. It has already been said that in this case we are almost always out of our bodies or perhaps even never really "in" there at the first place. To me however being in the body means that our consciousness is connected to and/or generated by it.

No I don't think that this is labeled OBE since you are still aware of your physical body and don't perceive the eviroment with the feeling of being completely some were else. As soon as you do, though, I would label it as Obe.

Imagine the following theoretical situation however: as human beings we keep evolving, our awareness and consciousness of ourselves and of the universe keeps growing (a likely possibility i think). When this happens there will be a point when your definition of OBE will be no longer of relevance, since our awareness by then always includes our physical body and our physical location. Well just a thought anyway....

If that would happen, the term Obe in the above definition would be pointless indeed. Won't happen anytime soon I guess  

I think our disagreement here stems again from our differences on what OBE is, I hope this is cleared up by now. But still i don't see why a RB type OBE would not be possible in deep sleep if what Bruce says is true

.

If Robert is right Obes in deep sleep should be possible BUT inducing Obes while in deep sleep don't have to be possible.

However if I am right it (strongly, I think) points to the idea that LD + ESP can explain all RB type OBE. Perhaps I could ask Bruce's opinion of this matter and see what he comes up with.

Please do

Cheers Tom

[Tombo]

Reply to catmeow

Hi Tom

This is getting tough!

I know!.........

I'm sorry but I missed your reply to my post...  not sure how

, but I did... so here are some answers:

And btw your English is much better than my Swiss (and Xetrov's English is much better than my Dutch!)

Hehe, don't hesistate to try though...

Not a chance! lol

lol..Chuchichäschtli.....

[Well your viewpoint with the merging states is close to mine, how would you define the line between LD abd OBE, How do you recognize it yourself when having the experience?

That's tough.  In the RTZ I think it's probably simpler, because you can check your immediate environment with what it really should look like.  This is an especially good test if you go outside into the street, make some observations and then come back and wake up.  You can then compare these observations with what is really going on in the street, eg did you see the cars parked there properly? was the weather correct? etc

O.k. I see. Now I wouldn't be so hard with myself; as soon as real things appear that I could verify afterward I would call it Obe. But I admit, that this is indeed a bad criterion. Now, have you ever experienced this completely stable Obe's were writings don't mutate nothing fades or suddenly appears and things turn out to be exactly in the real world as they appeared in the Obe. This would be a awesome experience which would indeed separate LD and Obe. unfortunately, from what I experienced and heard Obe's rarely ever are this way.  But if you have this kinds of Obes that would be quite something .

Most of my experiences fail this test, ie there is simply too much fantasy for me to consider them to be real experiences, so I assume these are just an internal dream experience.  Only occasionally has there been a good correlation.  On these occasions, the experiences also felt much more realistic, than in the other cases.  So these would perhaps be OBE's and the rest were LD's.

But wouldn't it probably be more correct to assume (like Robert does) that Obe's and dreams kind of mix. So it is usually neither a completely exterior nor a completely internal experience but a mixture?

My definition of subjective is "private" and objective is "public".  In other words a subjective experience is a personal, private experience, not shared by others, occurring in a private reality.  On the other hand an objective experience is a public experience, occurring in some sort of shared or consensus reality.   There has to be a very strong degree of consensus for something to be classified as "objective", in other words a lot of people have to share the experience, not just two (as in the dream I shared with my mother).

o.k. I see. I actually would define a experience as (at least partly) objective as soon as other people (like your mother) confirm it. But I respect your viewpoint as well.

The physical world is truly objective, since we all agree on it

.

Things are (unfortunately) not this simple (At least thats what they teached my in philosophy of science at the university) but this would be a long discussion again and I wanna save your free time

Hmmm I sense that you demean alittle the LD-experience itself, There are very good books on this for example "Dreamgates" by Robert Moss

Yes, maybe I do demean it a little, I'll get his book and read it! (I will)

I suppose you won't regret it. What do you do in all your LD anyway? I used to do fly around alittle do some experiments and well just do anything I guess. But as i now learn (from the book mentioned) there seem to be quite some useful things one can undertake when lucid. I will use my future LD's more carefully now. You are really a lucky person having these LD daily!

It sounds odd, but I did this by reading, reading, reading....  I became so obsessed by LD and OBE that I read every book I could find on it.  When you live, eat and breathe a subject it stays with you day and night.  So when I went to sleep and started to dream I would just become lucid automatically.  Not every night but perhaps once or twice a week.  I just developed this conditioned reflex.  

I also had other techniques.  The most successful was (and still is) to catch myself waking up in the morning, and then simply go back to sleep, but remain lucid.  Once again, to do this you have to train yourself to wake up slowly.  It's no good if bang! you wake up suddenly and are fully alert.  You have to wake up slowly and become aware in the "mind awake body asleep" state.  You can then enter the LD state easily.

Nice, How can I learn to wake up slowly  

Strangely, by far the easiest way (for me) to do this is to go through an "exit" procedure, ie to imagine myself floating into the air and then landing on the floor.  When I used to do this the only sense I had at this time was one of movement.  After landing I would feel for the wall behind me, then feel for my bedroom door.  I would then actually open the door and step out of my bedroom.  At this point I usually obtained full vision, hearing and all the other senses.  Nowadays I can actually see whilst I float up to the ceiling.  It's a very curious sensation.  I have several other "exit" techniques to use if this one fails.

Cool...

I must admit that it is curious that the best way for me to get into an LD is to use an OBE exit technique, but this is the case.  And yet I claim that this leads to an LD rather than an OBE!

Funny indeed!

 

But to me the resulting experience is too fantasy-laden to classify as "real".  Well usually that is.  It's still a great experience though.  I do think the reason for this is incomplete memory recollection ("memory download" - RB) as described in my earlier post.

This is interesting, So you would say, You have a Obe but fail to download the experience completely and therefore this demeans the Obe into a LD... hmm... I'm sure there is a way to improve that download process.

That's an interesting idea, I'll give it a try!

Let me know what happens!

Cheers Tom

[Xetrov]

My most recent post here (I described a typical "OBE" in it as I experience them) somehow disappeared. I have noticed before that pieces of my post were gone. I hope noone is deleting anything deliberately? Perhaps the forum is lagging/glitching for more people and it was all coincidence? Well just very weird...  

[catmeow]

Hi Xetrov

My most recent post here (I described a typical "OBE" in it as I experience them) somehow disappeared. I have noticed before that pieces of my post were gone. I hope noone is deleting anything deliberately? Perhaps the forum is lagging/glitching for more people and it was all coincidence? Well just very weird...

That's a shame I would have liked to have read it.

I don't suppose anyone is deleting your posts, it's probably just a glitch.  However just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you! (I'm joking!) (I think)

I have learnt from bitter experience to keep a backup of all my posts as I type them, in a notebook.exe text file.  It's especially important to keep such a backup just before you hit the Submit button, because in my experience this is when glitches tend to occur, and you can lose a lot of work in an instant!  If this happens (and it does) and you have saved your post in a .txt file you can just cut-and-paste it back in again!

catmeow

[Xetrov]

Catmeow,

I posted the stuff alright, and I even looked at it afterwards, and even a day after it was still there. A friend of mine has read it too. So it did not dissapear at the moment of posting. I posted it right after sampson's post of Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:49 pm, and before your reply to him.

This happened 1 time exactly the same before, when just a few lines of text had been lost (deleted???) from one of my posts. I dont want to be paranoid but this is really weird, and something I never had on any other forum. Its a shame either way, if the forum isnt working right and randomly deleting (parts) of posts, or if someone is deleting it on purpose (did I violate any rules? would be nice to get some message if I did).

Anyway, weird.

[catmeow]

Hoi tombodenmann!

(Look that's as good as it gets!)

Now, have you ever experienced this completely stable Obe's were writings don't mutate nothing fades or suddenly appears and things turn out to be exactly in the real world as they appeared in the Obe. This would be a awesome experience which would indeed separate LD and Obe. unfortunately, from what I experienced and heard Obe's rarely ever are this way. But if you have this kinds of Obes that would be quite something .

Not really.  I've had experiences where everything looked exactly as in the physical, but these still seemed a little dream-like, so I would say that really I don't know.  I'm undecided about these particular "realistic" LD's/OBE's.  They do seem real, but I am not sure.

Hmmm I sense that you demean alittle the LD-experience itself, There are very good books on this for example "Dreamgates" by Robert Moss

Yes, maybe I do demean it a little, I'll get his book and read it! (I will)

I suppose you won't regret it.

Actually, I've just ordered the book...!

What do you do in all your LD anyway?

Good question...  Actually I love to just explore the environment.  I will usually just set off flying across the countryside, and marvel at the detail and clarity, which is usually just mind-blowing.  I don't do anything in particular, I just enjoy the experience, especially the flying/floating part.  I'm a bit embarrassed that I don't do anything more spiritually significant... but hey! I just enjoy the experience!

How can I learn to wake up slowly

Hmmm.... Don't move.  That's the advice.  Don't move!  When you wake up in the morning don't move any part of your body, don't shift your position to get more comfortable.  Definitely don't open your eyes.  Don't even twitch your finger.  Also, don't think.  Don't start to analyse anything because you will engage your "critical faculty" and before you know it you will be wide awake.   Let yourself drift back to sleep.  When you begin to see hypnagogic imagery, this is the time to try an exit procedure.  There are many exit techniques, such as imagining floating up, rolling over, spinning (around a vertical axis), "beaming" across the room, using RB's "rope" technique.  Sometimes I find it useful to try to move my dream (astral?) arms and wave them in front of my face.  I can actually feel them moving and see "transparent" arms in front of me.  For some reason this is a useful stepping stone to a complete "exit".  Once you can move your dream (astral?) arms you will almost certainly succeed at an exit.  It's useful to try all of this at the weekend, when you can have several attempts at "waking up slowly".

If you try this, then probably the first time nothing will happen.  But if you keep trying over and over again it will work.

But to me the resulting experience is too fantasy-laden to classify as "real". Well usually that is. It's still a great experience though. I do think the reason for this is incomplete memory recollection ("memory download" - RB) as described in my earlier post.

This is interesting, So you would say, You have a Obe but fail to download the experience completely and therefore this demeans the Obe into a LD... hmm... I'm sure there is a way to improve that download process.

Absolutely.  I agree, and I've thought (for some time) that the key is to learn and practice RB's NEW energy methods.  But I'm a bit lazy and I haven't really had the time to apply his techniques.  But I do intend to do this.

I'll just quickly expand on what I suspect is happening with the "memory download".  I do think there are two copies of consciousness operating, one in the physical/etheric body and the other in the astral body.  When the atral returns to the physical body, there is some "combining" of the astral and physical/etheric memories.  The resulting combined memory may be perfect (and hence "utterly real"), imperfect (hence "dream-like") or somewhere in between.   Those people on this board (there are some) who describe their OBE's as "completely unlike" LD's have perfect download.

As you say there must be a way of perfecting the download!

Cheers!
catmeow

[catmeow]

Hi Xetrov

Well yes, if someone is deleting or editting your posts it would be nice to know.   I'm sure you haven't violated any rules.  Take a look at the Acceptable Use Policy.  You haven't done anything wrong as far as i can tell!

But like I say take a backup of every post.  Then if a post disappears you can re-post it until it sticks  

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/aup.html

catmeow

[Xetrov]

Hi Xetrov

Well yes, if someone is deleting or editting your posts it would be nice to know.   I'm sure you haven't violated any rules.  Take a look at the Acceptable Use Policy.  You haven't done anything wrong as far as i can tell!

But like I say take a backup of every post.  Then if a post disappears you can re-post it until it sticks  

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/aup.html

catmeow

I checked that aup already and as far as I can tell I didnt break any rules (unless you count having a severely different opinion then others and sticking to it / defending it a crime). Also i do take backups of posts but uptill now only of the bigger ones. The one deleted was small so I didnt think it nececarry...

[Tombo]

Catmeow,

I posted the stuff alright, and I even looked at it afterwards, and even a day after it was still there. A friend of mine has read it too. So it did not dissapear at the moment of posting. I posted it right after sampson's post of Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:49 pm, and before your reply to him.

This happened 1 time exactly the same before, when just a few lines of text had been lost (deleted???) from one of my posts. I dont want to be paranoid but this is really weird, and something I never had on any other forum. Its a shame either way, if the forum isnt working right and randomly deleting (parts) of posts, or if someone is deleting it on purpose (did I violate any rules? would be nice to get some message if I did).

Anyway, weird.

Very strange.....But why would anyone delete your posts?  Maybe it just was a a strange coincidence. If it happens again I would contact the Mods or the Board Administrator, I think his name is Adrian

[Tombo]

Hoi catmeow

Hoi tombodenmann!

(Look that's as good as it gets!)

Wow! I'm impressed! How do you know that?

Actually, I've just ordered the book...!

Oh good, I wonder what you think about it.

What do you do in all your LD anyway?

Good question...  Actually I love to just explore the environment.  I will usually just set off flying across the countryside, and marvel at the detail and clarity, which is usually just mind-blowing.  I don't do anything in particular, I just enjoy the experience, especially the flying/floating part.  I'm a bit embarrassed that I don't do anything more spiritually significant... but hey! I just enjoy the experience

!

Well, I don't think there is much wrong about enjoying a nice experience. I just suppose there are some even more mind blowing things to do, like meeting guides, travel to earlier lives and stuff like that. The book gives some nice directions how to do that (If it works    )

How can I learn to wake up slowly

Hmmm.... Don't move.  That's the advice.  Don't move!  When you wake up in the morning don't move any part of your body, don't shift your position to get more comfortable.  Definitely don't open your eyes.  Don't even twitch your finger.  Also, don't think.  Don't start to analyse anything because you will engage your "critical faculty" and before you know it you will be wide awake.   Let yourself drift back to sleep.  When you begin to see hypnagogic imagery, this is the time to try an exit procedure.  There are many exit techniques, such as imagining floating up, rolling over, spinning (around a vertical axis), "beaming" across the room, using RB's "rope" technique.  Sometimes I find it useful to try to move my dream (astral?) arms and wave them in front of my face.  I can actually feel them moving and see "transparent" arms in front of me.  For some reason this is a useful stepping stone to a complete "exit".  Once you can move your dream (astral?) arms you will almost certainly succeed at an exit.  It's useful to try all of this at the weekend, when you can have several attempts at "waking up slowly".

If you try this, then probably the first time nothing will happen.  But if you keep trying over and over again it will work.

I'll try it, thanks for the explanation!

Absolutely.  I agree, and I've thought (for some time) that the key is to learn and practice RB's NEW energy methods.  But I'm a bit lazy and I haven't really had the time to apply his techniques.  But I do intend to do this.

I started with NEW again as well, It takes a lot of time though. But I'll keep it up this time for at least 6 Months, lets see what happens.

I'll just quickly expand on what I suspect is happening with the "memory download".  I do think there are two copies of consciousness operating, one in the physical/etheric body and the other in the astral body.  When the atral returns to the physical body, there is some "combining" of the astral and physical/etheric memories.  The resulting combined memory may be perfect (and hence "utterly real"), imperfect (hence "dream-like") or somewhere in between.   Those people on this board (there are some) who describe their OBE's as "completely unlike" LD's have perfect download.

As you say there must be a way of perfecting the download!

Cheers!
catmeow

[/quote]
Thats a good explanation, it is very similar to what Robert Bruce says. I just wonder how the brain is able to mix two copies of memories without creating a total mess.  
Have you already tried to remember the OBE's inside the Lucid Dream?

Tschüss, Tom

[catmeow]

Hi Tom

Hoi tombodenmann!

(Look that's as good as it gets!)

Wow! I'm impressed! How do you know that?

Not saying....!

Thats a good explanation, it is very similar to what Robert Bruce says. I just wonder how the brain is able to mix two copies of memories without creating a total mess.

Me too...!

Have you already tried to remember the OBE's inside the Lucid Dream?

Actually I haven't.  I had a stunning LD this morning - won't go into details - but I entirely forgot about trying to "remember" as you suggested.  Must try harder in the future!

Cheers
Joe

[Xetrov]

Hello everyone,

Something weird is going on. I asked a good friend of mine to post some of his experiences here because it is of relevance to this discussion in my opinion (his nick here is Vincent). Yesterday i saw that he posted a short message and now it has been removed (he told me it had already been removed once before but he re-posted it). There is no such thing as a forum where you post a message it will be coincidentally removed 2 times after each other (and no it didn't happen at the moment of submitting). This happened 4 times now and I'm starting to wonder what is going on.

If the person removing the messages is reading this (an admin most likely???) I would really like to ask why this is going on, thanks a lot for your explanation. I really hope my friend or I didn't break any forum rules

Have a nice day,
Xetrov.

[Tombo]

Hey Xetrov! nice to hear from you again! I was a little shocked about the abrupt ending of our discusion!
Concerning the "post-problem" I believe there is something wrong with the new board server.  There are some other users that report the vanishing of posts and even whole threads! See for example

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15745

as well as this:

Hi Guys....something went wrong with the forums when I was trying to reply to your post, Experimental..... I ended up posting about 5 times, then trying to delete them & for some reason the whole thread has disappeared ! I've retrieved the text (below) & hope you guys can post again !! sorry .....

I had a idea last nite that confused me somewhat ...

It was the fact that if you are trying to proove to yourself you have
left your body , through useing a number or a playing card, which was
previously hidden out of site to you from a freind or someone in the
physical . Then if i was in a Lucid dream , then that number or card
may appear wrong to the true physical counterpart ? , because while we
are lucid the expereince is more subjective...

If i m thinking right , then if i m haveing a subjective expereince ,
i have the power to shape shift the dimension i m percieving ( Lucid )
shapeing the enviroment useing my imagination , even if i m unaware of
that at times , so if i suddenly wake up with the dream in mind with
the number or card in my mind , then it should be the wrong number or
card , because the expereince was Lucid ? . Like for example if i
slightly thaught of the number as being " 57 " lets say , then the
number would appear as that number. ( as aposed to the true number )

But if the number matched up to the true physical number when coming
back awake as i remembered it or seen it , it would suggest that i was
percieving objectivly somewhat , which would explain what type of
expereinceing i was haveing , IE : either astral orientated or dream
related ?

I knows it sounds abit confuseing, its head doing lol , but very intersting

Experimental

: D

So the good news: Probably nobody is deliberatly deleting your posts, the bad news : there is a technical problem with the server that seems to be unnoticed.
Cheers Tom

[Xetrov]

Oh thanks tomb. for pointing this out. I do not really follow other parts of the forum so i didnt read that yet. Im glad it doesnt seem to be someone deleting stuff... (but the time that only 5 lines dissapeared from my post was weird anyway). I have not been around also for some time since i was away, but i will contribute to the discussion soon again probably, and Vincent will add his experiences here too soon I hope.

[catmeow]

Hi Xetrov

Really nice to see you are still here!

Please don't worry too much about posts disappearing.  This will almost certainly be a problem with the servers.  I'm in the business (many years) and I know how troublesome these systems can be.  Please ask your friend to post again!

Best wishes
catmeow

[Xetrov]

Hello all,

Im not gone yet , but doing more research on the subject of this post and also im going to rewrite my article with all the info i have gathered here (thanks to all the ppl in the discussion!).

I Just now came across a very interesting article published by a group of researchers, which up to a very high degree supports my viewpoint. Anyone interested should give this a quick read:

http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

If you are pressed for time, scroll down and read the sections "WHAT DO WE KNOW NOW?" and "THE "IN-THE-BODY" EXPERIENCE". The only thing which they dont mention is the possibility of ESP from within a (lucid) dream...

Ill report back here if i find more interesting stuff and/or when i finish rewriting the cursed article  

A nice day to you all,
Xetrov.

[Xetrov]

Also i have read an article that explicitly states that the visual cortex is deactivated but i havent found it back yet, but if I do I will most certainly post the link here.

If anyone is still interested, I found it here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11969332&dopt=Abstract


Look where they state "during slow wave sleep we observed . . . a pronounced negative signal in the visual cortex" and "deactivation predominantly in the visual cortex". Just to illustrate my point ofcourse, anyway i've been pretty much bizzy and distracted lately so I might come back to this if people are still interested in this discussion.

[Edit] I just found another very interesting link to a reseach preformed on yogis in a deep trance (mostly theta, same brainwaves which occur during dream visualisation).

http://www.scand-yoga.org/english/bindu/bindu11/pictures.html


Read the comment "Why it is interesting" at the bottom too  

[catmeow]

Hi Xetrov

I read the article you linked to:

http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

Actually, I've read this article before, and I must say that personally I find it a little confusing.

This is because the authors never clearly define their terms.  They never define clearly what they mean by "OBE", "LD", "WILD", "DILD" and "WILD-OBE"!  It is absolutely essential to define what is meant by these terms, at the beginning of the article, so that we (the reader) can then follow the author's line of reasoning.  So for this reason I find the article confusing.

Having said that, the following appears to be their definition of OBE:

"Out of body" experiences (OBEs) are personal experiences during which people feel as if they are perceiving the physical world from a location outside of their physical bodies.

By using this as the definition of OBE, the authors then go onto classify DILD's and WILD's as OBE's if they meet this definition.  Some discussion follows, and finally the conclusion that OBE's are really indistinguishable from dreams.

Well I have to say that based on the definition of OBE supplied by the authors, it is undeniable that OBE and LD are indistinguishable.  But in my opinion, their definition of OBE is over-simplistic and does not correctly or adequately define the experience.

There are several characteristics that I would add to the definition of OBE, for instance:

- On returning to the physical, an OBE is still perceived as "just as real" as physical reality.  This is not true of LD's
- During OBE sometimes 360 deg vision is experienced
- During OBE information about the physical world is sometimes obtained which cannot be perceived at the time with the physical senses
- During OBE sometimes the individual is a "point of consciousness"
- Some OBE's occur whilst the individual is physically active ie driving a car, playing an organ etc, ie whilst physically awake!

All of the above have been omitted from the author's definition of OBE!

For a better (IMHO) critique of OBE and LD please see the books of Celia Green (Out-of-the-Body Experiences and Lucid Dreams):

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005WJKS/qid=1103655666
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0900076003/qid=1103655666

Xetrov, I am completely sympathetic with your notion that NDE-OBE is different from LD and conventional OBE.  In my opinion, this must be the case, since the biological "brain" is turned off and can not play any part in the experience.  But the article you have quoted does not really help you with this viewpoint... (Sorry!)

Finally,

Here are some examples of OBE which occurred whilst the OBE'r was physically awake and very active (from Celia Green's book):

The next I registered, was of hearing the sound of my heels very hollowly and I looked down and watched myself walk round the bend of Beaumont St. into Walton St.  I - the bit of me that counts - was up on a level with Worcester College chapel.  I saw myself very clearly - it was summer evening and I was wearing a sleeveless shantung dress.  I remember thinking "so that's how I look to other people."

If I remember rightly, I was reading a book or newspaper at the time, when suddenly I had a queer floating feeling, and I found myself looking down at the room, and seeing everyone sitting there, including myself.

I was sitting at the rear of the bus looking out through the window when without warning I found myself looking at myself from the stairs of the bus.  All my senses sight feelings and so on seemed to be on the stairs only my actual body remained at the seat.

I suddenly found "myself" suspended bodiless in the air behind my typing figure - about eight feet behind, two feet to the actual left, and four feet above actual height.

I was driving in a generally N Easterly direction along the right-hand lane of the Autobahn... when I became conscious that I was also about 15-20 feet above the roadway and to my right, watching myself, my passenger, the bicycle, my luggage (I could see it all) riding along the road.  I cannot say how long this lasted - it seemed quite a long time... I shivered violently and returned to myself when I stopped the bicycle and told my friend why

...as I settled myself, switched on the engine, let in the gear, I seemed to fill with horror because I simply wasn't in the car at all, I was settled firmly on the roof watching myself and despite a fearsome mental struggle to get back into myself, I was unable to do so and carried out the whole test, (30 mins?) watching the body part of me making every sort of fool of myself that one could possibly manage in a limited time

The Lucidity Institute discuss REM sleep and the construction of a self body-image etc in their arguments.  In actual fact, many OBE's occur whilst individuals are physically wide awake and active, and quite often the individuals describe themselves as a "point of consciousness" with no body image at all.

I really would recommend Out-of-the-body Experiences by Celia Green.  It gives a detailed analysis of all aspects OF OBE, eg state of the physical body, muscular relaxation, motor control, self-image, perceptual realism, level of consciousness, ESP sense of time etc etc...  It's better than the Lucidity Institute article!

catmeow

[Xetrov]

Hello catmeow,

Your comments on the article are in itself pretty much true, and certainly if you are of the opinion that an OBE isnt the same as a LD. However, why i found the article interesting and worth reading is because it does show us some insight into one 'subclass' of OBE's, namely those that are initiated from sleep stages (be it LD's or WILD's, this group contains about 85% of all OBE's reported). Also their definitions for LD and WILD are exactly how anyone would define them (there is no discussion as far as I know as what these definitions should be). Possible differences also dont really matter as the definitions only indicate how a person becomes or stays self aware in a dream, and because according to their findings, OBE's from any dream stage, be it WILD or DILD or whatever, are very close or exactly the same. But you are right, their definition of a OBE is indeed too narrow to capture all OBE related phenomena. However let me point out why I liked the article anyway.They write in some detail about the parallels between OBE's and LD's, because they have been researching a lot on those phenomenon (yes, albeit a limited version of OBE's, only from sleep). Their findings show that all the OBE's induced from a sleep stage are nearly indistinguishable from LD's, and they also show how according to them people may still claim that they are different. This is because the transition between the waking and sleeping stage (for example during sleep paralysis and/or WILD) is so subtle that it is not noticed, thus going into a OBE this way doesnt seem to be a dream (but it still is). You have probably experienced this a lot of times according to your way of inducing lucid dreams (if i read it correct, you wake up slightly and perform an exit procedure, a method I also use a lot). I am aware that you agree with me that those sleep-related OBE's aren't really OBE's after all but the huge majority on this forum probably still claims otherwise, which is also why I posted this article to support my viewpoint. To quote the (in my opinion) most interesting findings from their research (and these passages show exactly why I think their findings are interesting and why they should be considered with great care):

[dream related] OBEs occur when people lose input from their sense organs, as happens at the onset of sleep, while retaining consciousness. This combination of events is especially likely when a person passes directly from waking into REM sleep. In both states the mind is alert and active, but in waking it is processing sensory input from the outside world, while in dreaming it is creating a mental model independent of sensory input. This model includes a body. When dreaming, we generally experience ourselves in a body much like the "real" one, because that is what we are used to. However, our internal senses in the physical body, which when we are awake
inform us about our position in space and the movement of our limbs. This information is cut off in REM sleep. Therefore, we can dream of doing all kinds of things with our dream bodies -- flying, dancing, running from monsters, being dismembered -- all while our physical bodies lie safely in bed.

During a WILD, or sleep paralysis, the awake and alert mind keeps up its good work of showing us the world it expects is out there -- although it can no longer sense it. So, then we are in a mentalÐdreamÐworld. Possibly we feel the cessation of the sensation of gravity as that part of sensory input shuts down, and then feel that we are suddenly lighter and float up, rising from the place where we know our real body to be lying still. The room around us looks about the same, because that is our brain's best guess about where we are. If we did not know that we had just fallen asleep, we might well think that we were awake, still in touch with the physical world, and that something mighty strange was happening -- a departure of the mind from the physical body!

The unusual feeling of leaving the body is exciting and alarming. This, combined with the realistic imagery of the bedroom is enough to account for the conviction of many OBE experients' that "it was too real to be a dream." Dreams, too, can be astonishingly real, especially if you are attending to their realness . . . . Lucid dreamers often comment to themselves in dreams, "I know this is a dream, but it all seems so incredibly real!" All this goes to show that the feeling that an event is real does not mean that it is happening in the physical world that we all share when we are awake.

So this shows my point, OBE's from sleep stages are in essence the same phenomenon as lucid dreams, although people interpret them all differently according to their different viewpoints.

Now you come up with some interesting additional characteristics of what according to you should be included in a definition of an OBE.

On returning to the physical, an OBE is still perceived as "just as real" as physical reality. This is not true of LD's.

To start, the quote I gave from the lucidity institute shows that this is a false premise. It is only based on the distinction a person makes when he/she is having an OBE "it looks so real it cannot be a LD", thus it has to be an OBE, but this is not necessarily true at all. So, I would argue that you should broaden your definition of what a LD is to include such experiences if they do not fit your definition of a LD (and yes this comes from my own experience as well).

During OBE sometimes 360 deg vision is experienced

Same argument, if vision is 360 deg then it has to be an OBE? It's absolutely not impossible that we can imagine a 360 degree vision in a LD without the need for our spiritual essence or whatever to "float free of the body"

During OBE information about the physical world is sometimes obtained which cannot be perceived at the time with the physical senses .

I explained already in detail that this information can be obtained through ESP.

During OBE sometimes the individual is a "point of consciousness"

I can do this in a LD aswell, no big deal. Its a matter of exploring the possibilities of the mental world you are in while LD-ing, you would be amazed at what you (and your subconscious self) are able to imagine.

Some OBE's occur whilst the individual is physically active ie driving a car, playing an organ etc, ie whilst physically awake!

Ok now I agree this is really interesting information! Here we touch upon your initial critique of the lucidity institute, that their definition of OBE doesnt  include all forms of OBE, for example those described by Celia Green (by the way neither does their definition really include OBE's induced from trance). But I would like you to consider this situation, which probably has happened to any of us.

You drive home by bike or car, from work or school. All of a sudden you realize that the last few minutes you were sunk into thought and that the driving went on some kind of 'auto-pilot', and you cannot remember at all that you passed the lights for example, or a certain building or other feature you always see on this route.

Now what if some people (a minority for sure), can in such instances visualize their actual physical position from some distance? For sure for people with a photographic memory (these people are able to literally 'be' in any place they have ever visited or can imagine, by just thinking of it), this will look extremely like an OBE. In my view an OBE like this is not possible since for me OBE means NDE where the spirit leaves the body, and the body therefore isnt functioning anymore properly (for example no brain activity). The C. Green examples can ofcourse be defined as OBE's if you define OBE like "experience when someone sees/feels any place of reality from a different viewpoint then the physical body/senses, thereby also not being aware of the physical body/senses".To me this is not the essence of an OBE because this can all also be just as easily imagined. There is just no conclusive proof at all to support the notion that in such an OBE as Green describes you spirit is placed in the astral (same as OBE's from sleep stages, where this also doesnt happen).