A few question for Lucid Dreamers and astral projectors/OBE

[projektr]

What's the longest can you recall in time whilst you were out of your body or dreaming?

From what i understand (what i've read) dreams take place in just a few seconds in the physical time we live by. Whilst in the dream state it's like an hour or so. Theoretically, if a person were to dream or project for that 8 hours of sleep they have, would that 8 hours be more like several days perhaps?

Now i've read many of you have had very brief projections/dreams, any idea why you are pulled back from that dream or projection?

And to the professionals, have you ever been out for a few hours of the physical time?

[solar]

Dreaming happens in cycles - but you do a lot more than dream when you sleep. You dream for a while, then go into a deeper sleep for a while, then start dreaming again... I don't know the lengths of times of these cycles, but, assuming lucid dreaming follows this pattern, you can't have one continuous 8 hour dream... Generally my lucid dreams seem to last between five and fifteen minutes, though i have had one extrordinarily long one, which seemed nearly an hour.

My thinking is that the reason I am pulled back from a lucid dream is that the cycle is ending, and frequently i have another lucid dream later that night...

Sorry that wasn't more difinitive..

[Nay]

What makes you say dreaming happens in cycles?  I can go to sleep and be woke up in ten minutes, or less and still have a memory of a "dream"...or I can wake up every hour on the hour and have recollection of a "dream".  In my experience, cycle dreaming is not so absolute.

[cainam_nazier]

I agree with TalaNay.  The body may go through the cycles but that does not mean that the consiousness that interacts while dreaming does the same.

But as far as the original question.  I have live an entire life time once before in a dream.  60 years or so.  It wasn't all at the same time speed though.  I would go through a couple of days and then fast forward a little while and do a couple of more days, and so on.  The physical time of this is unknown as it occured over one of my 10 hour sleep cycles with out interruption.

However I have also had dreams that seem to be minute for minute real time.

[Synergy]

A friend of mine is a neurologist (and consequently a skeptic wrt OBEs) anyway, he sais that as a rule, you don't even start to dream until your first REM cycle, about 90-120 minutes after you fall asleep.  In a full night's sleep (average 8 hours), you only have about 2 REM cycles, and they only last a few minutes each. 

I am a bit of a rarity in that I tend to start dreaming right away when I fall asleep (a cymptom of narcolepsy... which I dont think I have) anyway I have had dreams that seemed to last hours, and then wake up to find that only minutes had passed (based on the tv show that was on)

I have also had OBEs that seemed to last an hour or so, but these were AP.  All of my EPs seemed to be short in duration and 'seemed' to coincide with real time.... I guess thats why they call it real time projection! 

[kiwibonga]

I am a bit of a rarity in that I tend to start dreaming right away when I fall asleep

Is that really rare? I thought everyone did that

[David Warner]

Synergy,

I'd like to get with your friend neurologist and have him/her put me under the eeg machine so I can show her that I'm able to dream within 5-10mins, or produce the trance state and project. I would imagine the casual person who sleeps and does not enter the mind awake body asleep state would make sense to the neurologist statement.

In my experimentation with video,audio of the obe. I have found that the OBE experience is quick, and the time is accelerated and during the physical, time is slow. Even though there is no time in the astral, still the experience moves along at a fast pace.

I am not sure about it being a rarity because I'm able to enter dreaming right away. A lot of times, I'm able to virtual create my environment and take part into that scene, then once the dreaming commences, I am able to snap out of it and place myself into the trance / vibrational state to exit.

To answer your question projectr, I would say the longest I've been out was over a half hour in astral time. Also, you will notice that when you first start out projecting, the experiences are short and quick.As you learn to maintain your consciouness, focus, and sustain longer periods of the obe, the journals are longer in details. In the begining my journals were about 4-5 lines of text. Now, they are around 10-15 pages.

tvos

[Nay]

I'd like to get with your friend neurologist and have him/her put me under the eeg machine so I can show her that I'm able to dream within 5-10mins, or produce the trance state and project.

That is what I was saying too...  I wonder if I would show a state of being active within a few minutes.  How does that work anyways...does the machine just pick up activity of the brain?

Synergy..     I had to giggle how you shot down the idea of 'dreaming' right away and then state how you are a rarity and only you can do it.  It's not a rarity many, many people are quite capable of doing it, consciously or not. 

[Novice]

I'm with Tvos and Talanay on this one. I too start dreaming very quickly. I also can create and enter my own 'dreams' if you will.

I have heard of REM and the whole theory of the brain cycling up and down through the various wave levels. But I agree with what Tvos suggested. I think this cycling is common in most people because most people tend not to maintain awareness for any type of OBE/Astral projection. I think those that do practice these things would register differently on the eeg -- but those are only my thoughts on it.

[Synergy]

  That is what I was saying too...  I wonder if I would show a state of being active within a few minutes.  How does that work anyways...does the machine just pick up activity of the brain?

Synergy..     I had to giggle how you shot down the idea of 'dreaming' right away and then state how you are a rarity and only you can do it.  It's not a rarity many, many people are quite capable of doing it, consciously or not. 

Where did I shoot down the idea?? I just typed what my friend told me about the 'norm'  And about dreaming right away...
I didnt say ONLY I could do it... lol.  I know lots of people can, but according to neurologists, the 'majority' of the population do not enter REM until about 90-120 mins after falling asleep.  It's in the neurology books....  I looked it up in his neuro text book to be sure, because I knew that I had dreams right away.  Maybe I wasn't totally clear on that. And usually, they say that it is people who have some sort of sleep disorder like narcolepsy. (yeah... do we consider it a disorder?? I dont!)

here is the quote from my post:

I am a bit of a rarity in that I tend to start dreaming right away when I fall asleep (a cymptom of narcolepsy... which I dont think I have)

WHere did I say I was the only one who could do this??  I hate how on this board everyone always feels like they have to defend everything they say!! In the general population, MOST people do NOT dream right away... so if you do... yes, you are a rarity in the eyes of the medical commiunity.   Another point... I also don't consider it something I 'can do'.  Its not something I make happen... It just happens....

[Synergy]

Synergy,

I'd like to get with your friend neurologist and have him/her put me under the eeg machine so I can show her that I'm able to dream within 5-10mins, or produce the trance state and project. I would imagine the casual person who sleeps and does not enter the mind awake body asleep state would make sense to the neurologist statement.
tvos

I bet if you did do a sleep study, and you entered REM right away, they would start talking narcolepsy, or other sleep cycle disorders.  I disagree with him anyway.... and he was a BIG skeptic with this stuff, so its no wonder he tried to pin anything spiritual as a medical 'disorder'. 

I am not disagreeing with you guys... I just mentioned what neuros believe about sleep cycles because it was relevant.

[solar]

This is kind've long - quoted from a website:
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The Sleep Cycle

One sleep cycle comprises of four stages and last for about 90-120  minutes. There are some texts that list five stages in the sleep cycle. Some consider the first five-ten minutes when you are falling asleep as a stage in the sleep cycle. We feel this is more of a transitional phase. In addition, while  the other stages of sleep repeat themselves throughout the night, this phase of sleep does not. For this reason, we have excluded it as part of the sleep cycle.

Dreams can occur in any of the four stages of sleep but the most vivid and memorable dreams occur in the last stage of sleep (also commonly referred to as REM sleep). The sleep cycle repeats itself about an average of four to five times per night, but may repeat as many as seven times. Thus, you can see how a person has several different dreams in one night. Most people,  however, only remember dreams that occur closer toward the morning when they are about  to wake up. But just because you can't remember those dreams does not mean that they never happened. Some people swear on the fact that they simply do not dream when in reality, they just don't remember their dreams

The Stages Of Sleep

The stages in the sleep cycle are organized by the changes in specific brain activity.


Stage 1: You are entering into light sleep. This stage is characterized by Non-rapid eye movements (NREM), muscle relaxation, lowered body temperature and slowed heart rate.  The body is preparing to enter into deep sleep.

Stage 2: Also characterized by NREM, this stage is characterized by a further drop in body temperature and relaxation of the muscles. The body's immune system goes to work on repairing the day's damage, the endocrine glands secrete grown hormone and blood is sent to the muscles to be reconditioned. In this stage, you are completely asleep.

Stage 3: Still in the NREM stage, this is a deeper sleep still. Your metabolic levels are extremely slow.

Stage 4: In this stage of sleep, your eyes move back and forth erratically. Referred to as REM sleep or delta sleep, this stage occurs at about 90-100 minutes after the onset of sleep.  Your blood pressure rises, heart rate speeds up, respiration becomes erratic and brain activity increases. Your involuntary muscles also become paralyzed. This stage is the most restorative part of sleep. Your mind is being revitalized and emotions is being fine tuned. The majority of your dreaming occurs in this stage.

These stages repeat themselves throughout a night's sleep.
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Okay, so that's what I meant about the cycles. OBEs and APing might not follow this trend, but I'm guessing that LDing does. Maybe it's not "absolute" but this is the generally accepted model. And I think that people who say that they dreamt the entire night probabaly feel that way because the only time they were actual "aware" at all was during their dreams.

And this model most likely does not apply 100% to most people in this forum, because most people here don't just "go to sleep". we maintain awareness, and actually consciously alter the natural cycle. However it still applies somewhat. Saying that the physical cycles and mental cycles are unrelated is.. not accurate. Mind and Body are very closely related, even if you can 'project' your mind 32 lightyears away.

[kiwibonga]

I hate how on this board everyone always feels like they have to defend everything they say!!

So you'd rather have something like Astral Society, where true and arbitrary share the same definition?

[Nay]

A friend of mine is a neurologist (and consequently a skeptic wrt OBEs) anyway, he sais that as a rule, you don't even start to dream until your first REM cycle, about 90-120 minutes after you fall asleep. In a full night's sleep (average 8 hours), you only have about 2 REM cycles, and they only last a few minutes each.

I am a bit of a rarity in that I tend to start dreaming right away when I fall asleep (a cymptom of narcolepsy... which I dont think I have) anyway I have had dreams that seemed to last hours, and then wake up to find that only minutes had passed (based on the tv show that was on)

I said what I said Synergy because of what you said...LOL.. really simple as that.  I'm sorry if I was wrong but it totally sounded like you were putting yourself in that...special corner.   

[Nay]

So you'd rather have something like Astral Society, where true and arbitrary share the same definition?

hehe.. I'm not allowed to go there anymore.. I questioned a certain someone's abilities and made too many good points to be welcomed...or tolerated. 

In my world...you can only see so many snakes coming out of each and every person that you come in contact with...

[blade5x]

You definently have more then two REM cycles. I've had nights where I could recall 5-6 dreams (waking up briefly once in a while helped).

[Synergy]

I said what I said Synergy because of what you said...LOL.. really simple as that.  I'm sorry if I was wrong but it totally sounded like you were putting yourself in that...special corner.   

You said that I said... that I was the only one who could 'do that'  - this was not true!  I just said I was a rarity, as are the other people who dream right away.  You are treating this as an ability!  Its NOT! There is no special corner to be in!  Its not the same thing as bringing yourself into a trance.  I mean falling asleep, and without trying or doing anything to provoke it on purpose, I tend to start dreaming right away.  I am in no special corner!  (Maybe I should put footnotes in my posts just to cover every possible question about what I write??)

Anyway you are making it seem like I was saying I have this special ability that nobody else has! I never said that, nor did I mean that!  I didn't even say or mean that it was an ability... or something that I 'could do' I simply said I was a rarity that this happens to me.  That was from a neurologist!  If it happens to you too.. than you are also a rarity in the eyes of the medical community. 

Anyway I am sorry if I offended anyone by saying that this was a rarity.  I was just typing what I was told, by a neuro... in the clinical sense.  I am not an expert in any of this.. and I dont think ANY of us are!  I am just a normal person who has been gievn the gift of spontaneous OBEs, and was able to learn to induce them.  I try to share what I can so that others might benefit.  I am tired of getting put down for everything I post on this board. 

You misconstrued what I typed and distorted it big time. 

[Nay]

There is no reason for you to get so defensive.   If you've read what I said, you would see that I wasn't saying it was a ability, the opposite actually. 

You might want to take a break and a deep breath.  I was not attacking you or distorting anything.  I'm a very simple person..and my mind works the same way..LOL.  I was mearly working from what you typed.

I see you have a E-book out...  did I upset the balance?? 

[David Warner]

i like being in that special corner... gives me logic and reason..

anyways, we should move on with the discussion. synergy is a cool gal and
a skilled projectionist. she's done a lot for the obe community and not to mention the free book on her web site.

the biggest thing we need to get back to is the intial conversation. what do we know about the vibrations and have they ever been recorded, measured with the eeg machine, actually picked up on the radar?

tvos

[Synergy]

the biggest thing we need to get back to is the intial conversation. what do we know about the vibrations and have they ever been recorded, measured with the eeg machine, actually picked up on the radar?

tvos

I would say that the experiments done by Charles Tart may lead to some insight on this, since he DID capture OBEs on the EEG.  All that you will find on the web though, is descriptions of the experiments and the outcome wrt the OBE themselves.  I'd be more interested in the actual EEG data recorded. It has to exist somewhere....  I'd like to see the actual EEG graphs from his experiments.

One way to find out for yourself, if you are sure you will be able to project under those circumstances, go to a doctor complaining of sleep disturbances, and ask for an overnight sleep study.  Then induce an OBE during the night.  In fact, I would be willing to try it, if I werent in the military.  For me, the possibility of a sleep disorder could mean the end of my career. 

[David Warner]

thats a good idea... might have to try that sometime, only problem is that i don't have sleep disorders. it just so happens that my last doctor is leaving and will be having to find a new doctor. gonna see if i can do some convincing about obe's/ndes, my research and study for my site.

tvos

[cainam_nazier]

I have seen this a lot.  People just need to remember that they are more than likely to find people who fall outside the "norm" here because of the topics that this site deals with.

With this particular issue I can see it highly common on this site because we tend to do a lot more thinking than most.  Since we are more focused on what we are doing when we are sleeping we are more prone to have more abnormalities with our sleep cycles.

However this is just an observation.

[Novice]

Had the weirdest dream last night. Dreamt someone was discussing dream cycles and I commented about consciousness and brain waves. Then Albert Einstein was there and I was discussing this and referencing his theory of relativity       

Anyways, he doesn't believe people can enter the various phases at will, so he .... hooks me up to an eeg! Within 5 minutes I'm in the second wave, but I'm still vaguely aware of my physical surroundings. Then he tells me to try for the next level and I do it. I then decide to go deeper to theta and wake up about 15 minutes later. We look at the paper from the eeg and I had successfully gone through multiple REM cycles and Einstein was all excited that I entered Theta 3 times during that session.

I woke up right after and just had to roll my eyes. I wasn't even that interested in this thread...so not sure why it played in my dreams that way. But I thought I'd share it! 

[Nay]

LOL! that is a fantastic dream Novice!   There has got to be something to it, I love it. 

Anyways, we should move on with the discussion. synergy is a cool gal and
a skilled projectionist. she's done a lot for the obe community and not to mention the free book on her web site.

Hey now..., I'm a pretty cool gal too and I like to think I have skills.     I appreciate you moderating but I want to address this because it's been on my mind for months.  People should not be dismissed because they haven't written any e-books and people should not automatically be looked up to as someone with the answer if they have.

My experience has shown me that it's best to figure out what is best for the individual..  I think it's a good idea to inspire and encourage people with sharing our experiences.  What I'm seeing with the onslaught of every tom, willy and mary writing e-books and starting their own site,  is not so much sharing but teaching.   

The more and more I see people wanting to teach people instead of walking next to them, the more I see people getting confused.   In my experience it confuses the natural path of the individual.   Like I said, it's great to get ideas and different techniques but they are not the absolute in any way, shape, or form.   We all must step back and stop thinking that our e-books, journals, and even published books are the end all be all.  IMO, they are all basically the same just tweeked from the individual writing it...hence why I think it's best to just walk next to people not stand on a pedestal telling them this is the way you should do it, or you won't be able to do it.  Poppy-cock... 

Ok.. with that said, I want to very quickly share that this morning I manage to go back to a previous dream by ONLY emotions.  I was woken quickly and didn't get the chance to even think about where I was but I did however hold on to the emotion.  I wasn't sure if it would work because I've often tried it, but I was pleasently surprised that I managed to get back to the same location and activity. 

Take Care!

[Synergy]

Hey now..., I'm a pretty cool gal too and I like to think I have skills.   

Now who's putting themselves up on a pedistle??   

I appreciate you moderating but I want to address this because it's been on my mind for months.  People should not be dismissed because they haven't written any e-books and people should not automatically be looked up to as someone with the answer if they have.

Good advice TalaNay,... just like people shouldn't automatically be looked up to just because they have over 4000 posts or belong to the site 'clique'?? ...or be automatically dismissed just because they are newer to this particular site and not necessarily the subject??   


----

Back on topic:

TVOS:  You may find that local Universities may be willing to hook you up to an EEG in the name of science   I didn't think about that before, but schools that have medical studies in them would have EEG.  Maybe you could phone and ask??