I heard it's only accessible if you're dead.
And to those who can't afford Hemi sync: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8eSuZ71S8k&playnext=1&list=PL31B39BE87D18CCFE
A little playlist of hemi sync someone uploaded. Seems like he only uploaded one hour, a nice alternate if you're having trouble with theta/alpha brain waves. I listen to it and get vibes within 20 minutes if I don't screw up my focus. I wish I had more time in life to listen to this and project (shoots for the weekends). The first video's ending has an annoying loud noise, you might wanna play 2/6 video.
Xanth is back to his terror kitten avatar?
Focus 27? Not I...
I believe the furthest I've been have been the BST's... and even then it's been once, maybe twice. Although I can't really be sure of either. LoL
And yeah, I figured it was time to retire the Eagle for the time being and bring back the KITTEN OF TERROR!! :)
I haven't gotten very far yet.
I downloaded the same Youtube videos on my iPod, only 4 out of 6, and the beginning of the second video startles the royal shiz out of me if I'm in trance before it starts. It does work great for the most part, though...
Greetings all
Regarding going to Focus 27 only of you're dead. I have read some OBE accounts from experienced projectors who have visited 'hospitals ' and 'reception centers' in focus 27 areas in order to meet deceased friends and relatives. While these OBE accounts are somewhat rare there are enough of these experiences to surmise that a living person CAN visit a focus 27 if there is sufficient motivation and/or need to do so.
Greetings 8-)
Grey
People in regression hypnosis report their "memories" from places that seem to be those in F27, such as rehabilitation centers, libraries, schools/universities for learning groups, etc.
That is why it ("Afterlife" or whatever you call it) has meanwhile become a pretty consistent general overview picture for me.
Quote from: Greytraveller on February 15, 2011, 13:17:50
Greetings all
Regarding going to Focus 27 only of you're dead. I have read some OBE accounts from experienced projectors who have visited 'hospitals ' and 'reception centers' in focus 27 areas in order to meet deceased friends and relatives. While these OBE accounts are somewhat rare there are enough of these experiences to surmise that a living person CAN visit a focus 27 if there is sufficient motivation and/or need to do so.
Greetings 8-)
Grey
That's pretty much what I believe as well. :)
Quote from: Xanth on February 14, 2011, 20:52:59
Focus 27? Not I...
I believe the furthest I've been have been the BST's... and even then it's been once, maybe twice. Although I can't really be sure of either. LoL
And yeah, I figured it was time to retire the Eagle for the time being and bring back the KITTEN OF TERROR!! :)
Hi xanth, what is a BST?
Quote from: Under_the_Midnight_Sun on February 15, 2011, 14:04:56
Hi xanth, what is a BST?
It stands for "Belief System Territories".
It's a label that Robert Monroe gave to group together his Focus levels 24, 25 and 26.
Basically, when a person dies, they're believed to gravitate towards the BST area that best suits their personal belief system. In other words, you end up in a collective consciousness environment with other people of like-minded beliefs.
Quote from: Xanth on February 15, 2011, 14:30:05
It stands for "Belief System Territories".
It's a label that Robert Monroe gave to group together his Focus levels 24, 25 and 26.
Basically, when a person dies, they're believed to gravitate towards the BST area that best suits their personal belief system. In other words, you end up in a collective consciousness environment with other people of like-minded beliefs.
ohh alrighty thanks a lot for the description :-)
Haven't been to Focus 27 yet, but I hear it's the best place to gather data in regards to proving O.B.E's are real to yourself.
Quote from: Bruce Wayne on February 15, 2011, 15:30:32
Haven't been to Focus 27 yet, but I hear it's the best place to gather data in regards to proving O.B.E's are real to yourself.
I believe that the "Library" that Monroe and Frank described there was actually the Akashic Records... and the "library" is how they perceived it.
Just a hunch... :)
I'm talking more about gathering data from people who have passed on and going back to the physical to see if their really was a person name Joe Smith who died in WWII etc.
Quote from: Xanth on February 15, 2011, 16:00:30
I believe that the "Library" that Monroe and Frank described there was actually the Akashic Records... and the "library" is how they perceived it.
Just a hunch... :)
We should make another topic about the akashic records, I have always wondered what others think of it, is it real, has anyone visited it -> what did they find.
Quote from: Greytraveller on February 15, 2011, 13:17:50
Greetings all
Regarding going to Focus 27 only of you're dead. I have read some OBE accounts from experienced projectors who have visited 'hospitals ' and 'reception centers' in focus 27 areas in order to meet deceased friends and relatives. While these OBE accounts are somewhat rare there are enough of these experiences to surmise that a living person CAN visit a focus 27 if there is sufficient motivation and/or need to do so.
Greetings 8-)
Grey
I was going to say, that I'm not 100% of 'what' constitutes focus 27, but if it's the hospital or the park, then I have been there.
A little off topic, but what focus level would the Buddhic level be? That must be a high level surely.
Quote from: The_One on February 15, 2011, 16:46:23
A little off topic, but what focus level would the Buddhic level be? That must be a high level surely.
My opinion is that The Buddhic Plane is representative of... possibly Focus 4 oC. :)
I'm reading Bruce Moens series and so far he has described going to his familiar F27 state prob over a 100 times lol
You mean Frank's focus 4 Xanth?
Quote from: The_One on February 16, 2011, 05:46:32
You mean Frank's focus 4 Xanth?
I don't know for certain obviously... this is only "my" best guess, but yeah. :)
I think it goes something like this:
# The Physical Plane = Focus 1 oC
# The Astral = Focus 2 oC
# The Mental Plane = Focus 3 oC
# The Buddhic Plane = Focus 4 oC
Alternatively, from reading descriptions... the Astral and Mental might be confused as being separate when they MIGHT actually be the same place. What people call the "higher astral" could refer to Focus 3, or either the Mental or Buddhic Plane, depending upon if you lump the Astral and Mental Planes together. LoL
Assuming that, then that would mean the Buddhic Plane could be Focus 3 oC with the Atmic Plane actually being Focus 4 oC.
Quote from: Xanth on February 16, 2011, 09:38:55
I think it goes something like this:
# The Physical Plane = Focus 1 oC
# The Astral = Focus 2 oC
# The Mental Plane = Focus 3 oC
# The Buddhic Plane = Focus 4 oC
I too think these translations aren't that simple. Focus 2 oC is described as being one's personal area in the collective unconscious and clearly the Astral encompasses much more than this. Focus 3 oC is described as the other, public part of "Astral proper" when the Mental plane seems to refer only to the higher realms/ highest portion of "Astral proper." The buddhic plane sounds like Focus 4 oC even though descriptions of the Atmic plane sounds closer to what Focus oC 4 is described as. With all this in mind I think it goes like...
# The Physical Plane = Focus 1 oC
# The Astral Plane (private, with the Etheric Plane blending at the low end) = Focus 2 oC
# The Astral Plane (public, with the Mental Plane blending at the high end) = Focus 3 oC
# The Buddhic/Atmic Plane = Focus 4 oC
I call Focus 4 "The Crazy Rainbow Point". Doesn't help anything.
Quote from: Astral316 on February 16, 2011, 11:31:33
I too think these translations aren't that simple. Focus 2 oC is described as being one's personal area in the collective unconscious and clearly the Astral encompasses much more than this. Focus 3 oC is described as the other, public part of "Astral proper" when the Mental plane seems to refer only to the higher realms/ highest portion of "Astral proper." The buddhic plane sounds like Focus 4 oC even though descriptions of the Atmic plane sounds closer to what Focus oC 4 is described as. With all this in mind I think it goes like...
# The Physical Plane = Focus 1 oC
# The Astral Plane (private, with the Etheric Plane blending at the low end) = Focus 2 oC
# The Astral Plane (public, with the Mental Plane blending at the high end) = Focus 3 oC
# The Buddhic/Atmic Plane = Focus 4 oC
That works just as well too. :)
Quote from: Stookie on February 16, 2011, 11:45:45
I call Focus 4 "The Crazy Rainbow Point". Doesn't help anything.
Dude! Are you the double rainbow guy?! :)
Kind of cool I ended up so high, on that plane by accident.
Whose model going Focus 1-4 Oc?
c0sm0nautt, it's Frank Kepple's
Monroe and his team discovered some interesting things on their travels, that one person's body was not able to handle the different states or levels or frequencies.. these 'locations' and had to go through a lot of training. They mentioned problems with metabolism.
I think there was a thread on this forum some time ago about energy work strengthening one so that they could leave the body. Some people didn't agree, but maybe certain people do need it.
Quote from: c0sm0nautt on February 18, 2011, 00:07:45
Whose model going Focus 1-4 Oc?
http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html :)
Quote from: Xanth on February 16, 2011, 09:38:55
# The Astral = Focus 2 oC
# The Mental Plane = Focus 3 oC
I'm not sure it is that simple. For example there is a very hard connection between F 27 and F 15 according to Moen, as he describes it in his 3rd and 4th books.
Also, there is that troublesome stuff (which splits F2 oC);
Focus 21 or in Frank talk, the F Z... :)
for those who don't know f27 is a level of higher frequency and subltle energies. As far as I know there is only positive energies and anything you create mentally remains until removed. Obviously the physics much different than earth but Earth like locations would be entirely possible.
Where is/are the library/libraries located? Upper astral / lower mental? And is that (also) Focus 27?
Quote from: Volgerle on March 27, 2011, 16:23:04
Where is/are the library/libraries located? Upper astral / lower mental? And is that (also) Focus 27?
I've read it's in the middle astral. But since I've received info in the hypnopompic state, I'm going to add some mental components there, depending on the topic.
Think about it like this: If you see a library and get info there, and then forget about it, you probably had an AP to the AR- but if you receive the info, process it and understand it it is not an AP but a MP to the same 'place'- which probably won't look like anything specific.
Confusing, isn't it? But I'm pretty sure you understand what I'm trying to say.
See, the thing is... all of these terms we toss around, they're mostly the way "other people" define the non-physical. What's important is for you to find and discover how "YOU" define the non-physical.
Suffice you say, you won't ever experience "Focus 27", "the library" or any pre-defined place in the non-physical exactly how someone else has defined it.
For example, Monroes "Park". You'll never experience Monroe's Park because that's simply how he defined the place. If it does exist as an objective, real area of consciousness, you'll perceive it, most likely as something completely different.
So, don't bother asking if any of these places exist, because we can only tell you our perspective of it. Instead, try to experiment and make your way there yourself... then you'll have turned something from a belief into a KNOWN. *THAT* is your goal.
Quote from: Xanth on March 27, 2011, 18:28:16
you won't ever experience "Focus 27", "the library" or any pre-defined place in the non-physical exactly how someone else has defined it.
So, don't bother asking if any of these places exist, because we can only tell you our perspective of it. Instead, try to experiment and make your way there yourself... then you'll have turned something from a belief into a KNOWN. *THAT* is your goal.
I think you got me wrong on this one. I know this "place" exists (I was there). And I just dropped this question here because ...
First, I was indeed (only) interested to find out how (as you say) "someone else has defined" and located libraries in general - in literature, in certain models, approaches and views of reality (old and modern). I know well that all these models (planes & bodies, focus, vibrational frequency, dimensions, etc.) are just approaches by different individuals and cultures to describe, 'road-map' or'categorise' non-physical reality.
The thread is after all called 'been to F27', so this is what we do here, too - making categories and "maps" for our experiences, phenomena, etc. - yeah, an almost impossible task, I know. But it is also fun, isn't it?
So secondly, if s.o. says that F27 might include libraries, then I can answer: "yes, probably I was there .. because I was at a library" - thread purpose fulfilled. :wink: Therefore I asked if the model says that library/libraries is/are placed there (I think they are, btw.), so I can give a rough assessment as to I've been to what some call F27... or not.
What is this Focus 27, anyway? IMO I think any focus is accessible because our consciousness permeates all frequencies. We are here and there at the same time. Dead or alive, you can be aware of such focus. It may be that the dead have a better focus there than us. Then again, according to The Tibetan Book of the Dead, if you want a proper focus in the Here-Now, you need to be alive. To the dead, the physical realm is a bit dreamlike if one takes into account Buddhist teachings about the afterlife.
Quote from: Xanth on March 27, 2011, 18:28:16
See, the thing is... all of these terms we toss around, they're mostly the way "other people" define the non-physical. What's important is for you to find and discover how "YOU" define the non-physical.
IDK Xanth- I define it as I experience it, using nomenclature that makes sense to me.
Quote from: Summerlander on March 28, 2011, 16:07:50
What is this Focus 27, anyway? IMO I think any focus is accessible because our consciousness permeates all frequencies. We are here and there at the same time. Dead or alive, you can be aware of such focus.
I agree, but not everyone seems to make sense or retrieve information out of every single focus or level- which is why there are so many systems that do the same thing- gradate it.
(Is that even a word?)
OK, I realize that this is an old thread, but apparently the only thread on this exact topic and I didn't want to start a new one.
I'm a relative beginner - started using the Monroe Gateway Experience CD set a few weeks ago and having some great experiences - I am at the beginning of Wave 3. I would say it is going well and I'm learning and discovering.
I'm very interested in exploring Focus 27 and beyond ("top" of Focus 3 and Focus 4 in Kepple's terminology). Here's my question: the Gateway Experience touches on a lot of different subjects and I'm not sure which parts are necessary, and which ones can be safely skipped if my main goal is to explore Focus 27+. Is it recommended to do the entire Gateway Experience first as intended (even though there are exercises in it that are no doubt useful or interesting, but I'm personally not that interested in them) or is it just as "safe" or doable to take a more direct route to explore Focus 27 and beyond?
Does anyone have recommendations as to how to proceed either after completing the Gateway Experience, or which parts of the Gateway Experience can be safely skipped on my way to a more direct path to Focus 27+ exploration? And, what's the best way to get there? What do I do after I'm done with the Gateway Experience? I can be patient, I'm not in a hurry, just trying to find the most direct route to my goal - I know... I'm not the "smell the roses" type, but if experience shows that the long road is the best one to this particular goal, I don't mind taking that either.
My advice is to follow the Gateway series fully and see where it takes you. Don't skip anything. If you have questions along the way, we will try and help.
There are no shortcuts...unless you are a natural...in which case, you would be figuring this out for yourself and have no need for our advice. :-)
Best of luck and Godspeed!
Quote from: EscapeVelocity on December 03, 2014, 05:17:14
My advice is to follow the Gateway series fully and see where it takes you. Don't skip anything. If you have questions along the way, we will try and help.
There are no shortcuts...unless you are a natural...in which case, you would be figuring this out for yourself and have no need for our advice. :-)
Best of luck and Godspeed!
Thanks a lot for the advice EV! I have some experience but I'm open and humble enough to be VERY interested in what others think/suggest. I definitely do need advice, and I believe I'm pretty good at separating the wheat from the chaff - I don't follow any advice blindly, but consider everyone's views and opinions. I believe that's a great way to learn.
Maybe I didn't manage to express myself too clearly - I'm not looking for a shortcut, rather, I'm wondering if the entire Gateway Experience is THE best path to take me where I want to go, and if there is a better way to get there, what is it? To use an analogy, let's say I wanted to go to see a castle in a foreign country I'm not familiar with, and someone offers a 3-day tour that goes to that castle, but it stops at many other places along the way that I don't have any particular interest in - I'd rather spend as much time in and around the castle as I can. My question is kind of like is there a "tour" or means of transportation that takes me directly to the castle, instead of spending 3 days getting there and looking at other sites I'm not as interested in? Or, would I be making a mistake if I DIDN'T take the "3 day scenic route"? Maybe someone who has been down that road already will point out that the some things on the way to the castle may even be more interesting than the castle itself!
As an example of why I have my doubts/questions, I'm having trouble with the REBAL ("Resonant Energy Balloon") the way Monroe teaches it - I guess I might be resisting it because it feels too "gimmicky" to me. I can easily create a field of energy around my "non-physical body" (which I don't "see" in physical terms outside the physical - it is more like a concept for me than an object) at will. But I don't perceive myself outside the physical having a similar "body" - my non-physical body doesn't have a head or feet, so how am I supposed to create a fountain of energy that exits my non-existent head and enters back through my feet? I feel that this is an artificial construct that may help others but I don't feel I need it - actually, it distracts me. I'm concerned that if there are too many of these (like the Energy Bar Tool, which also feels like a construct I may or may not need in my exploration in the way it is described by Monroe) that the program keeps referring to and I'm expecting to "use", these may eventually become distractions from the real exploration I want to do. These are kinda too specific, too physical for me. E.g. there are an infinite number of ways to create, manipulate and use energy, the REBAL or the EBT feel like those pictures with a caption that say "an artist's impression of managing energy in the non-physical world" while it may look/work completely differently for me, and still serve the same purpose. I think that some of these kinds of concepts and "tools" have been created by someone else in their subjective world and "brought back" and described in physical terms for the next person to re-create the same thing in their own subjective world - but I'm not entirely convinced this is necessary or the best way to do certain things.
While I'm new to the Gateway and the concept of focuses, focus levels or levels of consciousness as they use them, concepts of non-physical/spiritual "activities" are not new to me. I am looking for answers and ways to effectively discover how this stuff is put together... I suspect that the biggest challenge for most people who embark on this path is to differentiate between "objective" realities in these subjective areas of exploration and their own constructs and the constructs of others. E.g. the existence of "Gabriel Archangel whom you can call at any time and who will come to assist you" as many spiritual explorers matter-of factly assert, may be a completely subjective experience, or a "round trip creation" where someone asserts that that's the way it is, and as a result of that, people following the instructions of that person will subjectively create their own Gabriel Archangels, wings and all, and then will "confirm" with awe that "he" REALLY exists, and even looks exactly as described! Of course he does - you just created him to match the description you received from someone else.
Hope this makes sense :-)
I landed in a hospital once when I had intent to visit my deceased grandma. So maybe F27. I walked around trying to find her and couldn't. Finally I found a hospital worker and asked where she was and he told me she wasn't here any more. I asked well where'd she go? and a guide showed up that led me to her. I don't consider the experience a success because when I finally got to see her it was only for a few seconds and then I lost consciousness. (I've had more successful visits since, though) It was interesting walking around the hospital and it seemed as though I was being shown that she had been there for rehab before she moved on.
I had this experience maybe about a year after I started projecting. I held intent that I wanted to visit my grandma for about a week before it happened. I don't know anything about the gateway program - I didn't do anything special except have the intent.
I can talk of focus 27. I've attended both Lifeline and Exploration 27 courses at TMI.
Some interesting comments in this thread. I talk only from my own experiences..27 seems both objective and subjective in nature as in people tend to experience very similar things with just minor differences (maybe based on their individual beliefs). For example someone may see the library as a huge Roman style building while others perceive it as as a modern all glass affair. For me it's the former.
27 is seen as the rest and recovery area for people (not just humans) after physical incarnation. Soarin makes an interesting comment about the hospital. At X27 you spend a lot of times exploring the healing and regeneration center where you may find people who still cling on to their physical ailments after they pass because it affected them so strongly. That's just one e.g. though. I often to take my pets and family members there who have been ill (those who are still alive, that is.
The park is what is commonly associated with focus 27. Personally, I have never experienced it. I have been to the healing center and the library but for some reason not the park (I put this down to having listened to the Going Home series a lot early in my experiences. In it Bob frontloads you as you get to 27 by telling you what the park looks like. I've never responded well to frontloading).
I think 27 is an important place to become familiar with especially in regard to our own deaths. In the Lifeline program you are encouraged to create you own special place in 27. This is seen as an anchor to help you get there.
Also it serves as a place to bring retrieved souls. I have a number of my former pets at my special place (We had one of cats called Blackie put down over the weekend and prior to it I agreed with one of my other cats, called Kippy, who passed over several years ago who resides in 27 to pick him up and bring him back to 27. On the morning after Blackie passed I was a little depressed to meditate and go look but just thinking about it I got a very clear visual scene appear in which Blackie was sitting next to Kippy staring at me. Interestingly he looked vital and his fur was fresher like a young cat. This gave me peace of mind. I hope to see him soon when I next go up to 27).
However, I think most importantly it is an anchor for when you die so you don;'t get stuck yourself. You can set your intent for your special place so you don't get stuck in 23 or maybe the BST.
Someone asked about where 27 in regard to etheric, mental planes etc.. From my experience it is not as high as the mental planes but just fringing it. If you take the Starlines programs at TMI this deals with focus 34-49 which is more about the mental planes. I've done a few exercises in focus 34 but I don't think I was ready for them yet. All in good time I suppose.
While it's important for people to experience reality personally before forming conclusions... I would just like to say that my entire beef (now) with the Focus models we have is that experience is personal and you simply can't have another person's experience. This knowledge (which as far as I'm concerned, is FACT) kinda blows a huge hole in any Focus model... or any model that anyone comes up with, including my own.
For myself, the Focus models were a great help in providing me with a "guide"... it's just important to realize that a guide isn't rule, and the guide, in this case, doesn't really exist either. I've since moved past needing them since they simply don't fit what I have experienced in the non-physical.
The moral of the story here is don't get hung up on labels. Eventually, you need to progress past using other people's labels... or you will just get yourself stuck.
Quote from: Xanth on December 03, 2014, 13:23:34
While it's important for people to experience reality personally before forming conclusions... I would just like to say that my entire beef (now) with the Focus models we have is that experience is personal and you simply can't have another person's experience. This knowledge (which as far as I'm concerned, is FACT) kinda blows a huge hole in any Focus model... or any model that anyone comes up with, including my own.
For myself, the Focus models were a great help in providing me with a "guide"... it's just important to realize that a guide isn't rule, and the guide, in this case, doesn't really exist either. I've since moved past needing them since they simply don't fit what I have experienced in the non-physical.
The moral of the story here is don't get hung up on labels. Eventually, you need to progress past using other people's labels... or you will just get yourself stuck.
And you are exactly right. They serve as an anchor point to help you initially to reach certain states. They are the training wheels until you are ready to explore more
"Anchor point"... I like that! :)
Temporary common terminology...anchor points, yes I like that.
Visitor42-
Your slight difficulties regarding the Gateway Experience, I agree with this completely as it was my own experience. You describe the issues very well and I look forward to your descriptions of your continuing experiences as they parallel my own.
Consider the Gateway system as a set of mental exercises, to energetically strengthen and condition your Non-Physical body or awareness. It's like astral Pilates or non-physical strength training...
I could also suggest regular meditation and WBTB (Wake, Back To Bed) or Lucid Dream or Rundown methods for inducing an OBE. All these methods are techniques to work your awareness up to a point where a breakthrough naturally occurs...and no one can tell you where or when that will be. Research as much of these topics onsite as you can and the insights will eventually occur to you within an experience. That's how it works, lol, for a long time...
A book that will help you, eventually, if not now, is Kurt Leland's The Multidimensional Human.
Any questions, ask.
do you think this is focus 27?
(http://iamakenyanatheist.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/mapofheaven.jpg)
Quote from: DreambreaX on December 04, 2014, 05:19:24
do you think this is focus 27?
Nope.
You can't map consciousness.
Quote from: Xanth on December 04, 2014, 13:16:13
Nope.
You can't map consciousness.
the map is reported from NDE people.
is there any similarities? what are the differences?
Quote from: DreambreaX on December 05, 2014, 05:43:09
the map is reported from NDE people.
is there any similarities? what are the differences?
Belief and perspective.
Quote from: Xanth on December 03, 2014, 13:23:34
While it's important for people to experience reality personally before forming conclusions... I would just like to say that my entire beef (now) with the Focus models we have is that experience is personal and you simply can't have another person's experience. This knowledge (which as far as I'm concerned, is FACT) kinda blows a huge hole in any Focus model... or any model that anyone comes up with, including my own.
For myself, the Focus models were a great help in providing me with a "guide"... it's just important to realize that a guide isn't rule, and the guide, in this case, doesn't really exist either. I've since moved past needing them since they simply don't fit what I have experienced in the non-physical.
The moral of the story here is don't get hung up on labels. Eventually, you need to progress past using other people's labels... or you will just get yourself stuck.
I think your post sums it up nicely. There's an old Outlaw's song that says, "Take it anyway you want it, be your own super star, let the world know the only way you want it is the way you are...." I'm grateful for all of the teachers who have helped me come to a better understand of myself, including you and many others on this forum over the years. But I've discovered that eventually you have to find your own way and not get hung up by what others say and do. Life is a personal journey of growth and expansion. I take the "spiritual sponge" approach -- I soak up lots of ideas but eventually wring out those that don't fit with where I am --with the sense of deep peace that all is well. Onwards and inwards......
Quote from: EscapeVelocity on December 04, 2014, 05:04:27
Temporary common terminology...anchor points, yes I like that.
Visitor42-
Your slight difficulties regarding the Gateway Experience, I agree with this completely as it was my own experience. You describe the issues very well and I look forward to your descriptions of your continuing experiences as they parallel my own.
Consider the Gateway system as a set of mental exercises, to energetically strengthen and condition your Non-Physical body or awareness. It's like astral Pilates or non-physical strength training...
I could also suggest regular meditation and WBTB (Wake, Back To Bed) or Lucid Dream or Rundown methods for inducing an OBE. All these methods are techniques to work your awareness up to a point where a breakthrough naturally occurs...and no one can tell you where or when that will be. Research as much of these topics onsite as you can and the insights will eventually occur to you within an experience. That's how it works, lol, for a long time...
A book that will help you, eventually, if not now, is Kurt Leland's The Multidimensional Human.
Any questions, ask.
I just looked on Amazon for that book and it's over $950.00, is this right?
Loosh-
Well, there's the law of supply and demand at work; although I don't think they will sell many at that price for the time being.
I checked Amazon, Barnes&Noble and Booksamillion; not available. You should try contacting Kurt Leland directly and see if he knows of any copies still available.
In one way I'm surprised, in another I'm not. I imagine that Unanswered Question, Otherwhere, and MDH were all pretty limited printings in number, but they are just so good that underground demand is currently driving the price on these books; I guess that's as good an indicator of quality and value as one could ask for...
Kurt has mentioned forthcoming reprints of his works, but that is off in some uncertain future. I would love to see these books available again. I was lucky enough to jump on MDH early and could manage the higher prices demanded for used copies of Otherwhere and Unanswered Question. For me, they were well worth the price (neither was over $100USD) but value of this kind is a very relative thing.
Wow, I haven't visited in a while after I posted and I'm blown away by all the responses and discussion... great community here! Thanks to all of you who replied.
I kept progressing with the Gateway Experience, as recommended and it's definitely an experience :-) My biggest problem is that no matter what I do, I keep getting distracted by my physical body every time I'm in Focus 10 or 12 (a bit less in 12). It is as though part of my attention is stubbornly stuck on the body and it won't let go - I'm continually aware of the state, sensations and everything going on with my body during the exercises - itches, hands and feet falling asleep (or feel like it - there is normal circulation and they don't go numb or anything like that, just feel weird) to the degree that I feel an urge to move them, etc.. I am pretty sure I'm in a state of "body asleep, mind awake", but I'm fully aware of the body being asleep and the sensation is distracting - I assume it is normal for one's hands and feet to fall asleep a little bit while the body is in normal sleep, but you are obviously not aware of how that feels if you are in regular sleep so the sensation is something new to me, and it's distracting. It's very frustrating as I have a hard time focusing on what I want to do... like the body is demanding my attention all the time - nothing wrong, it just won't let my attention move off of it.
I assumed that ideally one would not be consciously aware of the body while in Focus 10 and 12 - I've read all 3 of Robert Monroe's books by now and he seems to have had been completely out of contact with his physical body senses during his OBE "trips" except for "situation alerts" that required him to go "back" to the body when necessary.
Did anybody have the same problem and was able to solve it...? I'm patient but it doesn't seem to get better (I'm on Wave IV now), so I'm wondering if there is a good way of dealing with it.
I think perhaps you've read too many stories about what you should experience in these states. Although Bob Monroe went OoB he never did it with hemi-sync so you can't really look at Bobs experiences for comparison (you shouldn't do that with anyone really).
You seem to have got hung up on this notion that to experience something you must have no body awareness. This is not strictly necessary with hemi-sync. Many people have wonderful experiences while the whole time being aware of their bodies.
A while back I wrote a post about a website of a guy who does simple meditation exercises that really help get your mindset correct for consciousness exploring. No body replied to the post so I assume it wasn't to people's taste or they are alll spiritual masters already. I personally think you would benefit a lot from it simply because a lot of what you just wrote resonates with how I was a while back. Somewhere along the line through a combination of reading too many anecdotal accounts and my own failures I got stuck in a cycle of focusing too much on the body because I was trying too hard not to focus on it.
Look for my post called 'My two cents'. I really recommend the exercises the guy called Peter Russell does. Whenever I have dry spells and get frustrated I go back to his exercises because it puts me back in the right mental frame set to do this
As regards to mental planes and what not..
This is my map based on Frank's model and other various teachings:
FoC 1 - Physical
FoC 2 - Emotional also known as Astral
FoC 3 - Mental AKA Concrete Mental/Lower Mental
FoC 4 - Identity AKA Abstract Mental/Upper Mental/Higher Mental
These are all a part of the ELS, the four divisions of the Material Realm.
The Buddhic Plane and beyond are a part of the Spiritual Realm and are pretty much indescribable as far as words go, so there's no point in trying to find and understand written descriptions of them. Basically, it's not important right now. It's like worrying about calculus when we've barely started algebra..
It is my belief that what we need to do is explore FoC 4 and from there we can receive subjective information on the spiritual realm. It is also my belief that FoC 4 is very important as far as our spiritual development goes. It's where the magic happens..
Also, through extensive studying I have come to the conclusion that the Library of Focus 27 IS the Akashic Records.
You can attain higher states where the individuality becomes one with all. As these are not on your categorization, you need to experience them before any attempt at a description.
So many attempts at putting things into some perspective generally messes things up. For now it's far better to accept two states. One is physical consciousness and the other is non physical.
The confusion arises when the one reading your map has travelled far wider in their experiences seeing more. Eg if you travelled and saw a red car for the first time, you'd likely say all cars are red.
It's better for you to have many of your own experiences rather than looking into those of others. Nobody fully understands the whys and wherefores of the art even after 50 years of it, new things come up that blow your mind out of the water.
It's great fun learning the ropes, the thing it's it never stops. You see more as you travel the unknown and realise that the more you learn the less you actually know.
My recently posted Alien Planet Experience has some new telepathic methods within that would help greatly in understanding how to communicate with the source. We are but children in the big picture. The deeper in I find myself, we are more like pets than children.
If you experience yourself One with All then you are having a spiritual experience. You are either 'in' the spiritual realm or are in contact with a being or higher part of yourself that is 'in' the spiritual realm. Therefore, I can label it spiritual realm.
The point I'm trying to make is that you can't map the spiritual realm because the nature of it is One and All and No Thing. However, there are non physical locales which are still a part of the material realm just as the physical is a part of the material realm and these can, and have, been mapped out to a certain extent for practical purposes.
I guess I can also say that once you reach a state where you are One with All and you're able to stay within that state or reach it whenever you want then you no longer need a map. However, if that's not the case then being able to pinpoint certain landmarks in order to get a sense of 'where' you are is very productive for practical purposes.
You have the Monroe model which agrees with the Frank Kepple model which agrees with Theosophy and the further development of the teaching. As we all know Monroe and Kepple were not religious or New Agey or mystics of any sort, they did not read or even have knowledge of things like Theosophy, and their roadmap just happens to be in full agreement with it? Not coincidence in the slightest.
So like I was saying there's a common consensus among these states of mind that can be mapped out to a certain extent. For practical purposes.
I gotta agree with 2fly for that, I've came at the right time and didn't know about focus levels and to tell you the truth I'm glad I didn't.
When you reach a stage where you're in love with the astral itself you only wish to go deeper.
There's no roadmap in the astral, it goes as far as you are ready to go.
And some experiences can't be described.
For exemple, I've had an experience where I can barely remember anything from it, but it changed something in me in a much deeper level.
I don't even understand what it changed but it did, and when I woke up, I felt so much rejuvenated that I felt as if I was seeing things as clearly as when I was 5 years old again.
If you always wish to go deeper it will always change you into a better person and even astrally you'll have a deeper understanding and better experiences.
For me I don't even "see" in the astral anymore I just feel and I get "engraved" with wisdom and ways of seeing things.
There's no focus levels for that. It's just an influx of information that goes through you and you wake up the next morning feeling different and more advanced than you were the night before that.
You can label things up to a certain point (let's say buddhic plane) but after that, it's just an eternal long path of teachings that is never ending.
To me if I said I was in the focus 27, I'd probably think that I'm boasting around by keeping track of numbers while there's much more important lessons to be learned from those.
Why would we keep giving importance to numbers, when the lessons taught are what is important, even tho we can't always describe what we seen or felt?
This is why I no longer think about it, I just experience it and go with the flow.
Edit: However, like always, there's 2 sides to this... after reading the description of the focus 27 and above I feel very appealed by the ideas and it is still instructive. Maybe it's good to have a reference in order to understand if you have passed away and you are in the focus 23 and above. But I can't tell for sure.
Well, honestly... there's no such thing as the "spiritual realm". The spiritual realm is EVERYWHERE... even while you're physically awake, you're "in" (for lack of a better term) the spiritual realm. As long as you're EXISTING and EXPERIENCING... you're in the spiritual realm.
When everything is *it*... then what are you defining? THAT is the question you should be asking yourself.
Everything is just a different perspective of the whole.
The truth of the matter is only seen when looked upon at all possible angles. The angle from which you see is your truth, it's not all the angles that are. Some angles remain hidden from view, it's finding out these exist before the truth is revealed.
'We are one' has all angles covered.
To say that you can't have a roadmap goes against the experiences that so many people have in common. The mindset that you guys have is like the materialist scientist who refuses to believe in anything beyond the physical simply because there is no outer proof that can be agreed upon in an external way. It's that same mindset that you're imposing upon non-physical reality. And it gets us nowhere.
I'm basically saying 'hey this is what the landmarks are based on experiences of myself and others and what has been consistently said throughout time', and you say 'well there's more land beyond what's landmarked and there's other areas that you haven't landmarked so your landmarks are wrong, it's better to travel blindly.'
I'm not saying that you have to agree with the map, that it's right, complete, infallible, or even use it. But you can't tell me it's wrong. Especially when it's been agreed upon by pioneers such as Robert Monroe, people I have met like Bruce Moen, great minds like Plato, and the common man like Frank Kepple. And is being gradually verified by various members of the forum including myself.
Obviously the spiritual realm is everywhere. That's the nature of it. We can say God is everywhere but are you not still perceived as a separate, individual, limited being? As you said, it's a matter of perception. But as I see it we are all mainly focused in FoC 1 so that is our focal point from where we are perceiving. And from that focus, at this point in time, there is a material realm. And a spiritual realm.
It's like the people who say time isn't real. Well yeah the organization of time is a man made construct but it has a reality within this domain through the movement of objects in 3-dimensional space so it can be unproductive to not acknowledge it's existence.
Like I said u don't have to believe or follow it yourself. But notice how I'm not trying to impose my viewpoint on you. If you had read my post I made sure to say, I THINK, I BELIEVE, etc. I'm just sharing my information for whoever may find it useful. Isn't that what this website is for?
Eventually you'll figure out WHY you can't map the non-physical.
What are you talking about, there's already a map lol
Look, I'm not the one trying to make a map.. I'm just trying to clarify FoC 4 in the general consensus of the map, which is already here.. which you yourselves have already acknowledged :?.. the fact that you're trying to argue against something that already exists is kind of.. perplexing..
Anyways, your reply implies to me you don't understand where I'm coming from.. or you're just not even reading what I'm saying.
When we go within we are becoming aware of the integral parts of our being. We are physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual beings. Each of which has its own reality (at this moment), however interconnected they may be. Therefore, they can be mapped out in general terms of physical, emotional, and mental. It is true that you can't map out every nook and cranny (every street and avenue if you will), however you can map out the continents (physical, emotional, mental). I'm not denying there won't be surprises along the way and other states that can't be explained or even placed upon the map. I'm not even saying this map is linear in anyway.
The reason I came to this thread and posted what I did is because I had seen Xanth's post "My opinion is that The Buddhic Plane is representative of... possibly Focus 4 oC." and I wanted to clarify FoC 4 within these terms:
Plato: Plato's theory of Forms or theory of Ideas asserts that non-material abstract (but substantial) forms (or ideas), and not the material world of change known to us through sensation, possess the highest and most fundamental kind of reality. These Forms are the essences of various objects: they are that without which a thing would not be the kind of thing it is. For example, there are countless tables in the world but the Form of tableness is at the core; it is the essence of all of them. Plato's Socrates held that the world of Forms is transcendent to our own world (the world of substances) and also is the essential basis of reality.
Theosophy: Now, if you get higher than the concrete mental plane (abstract mental plane) and look for the chair again, you would bump into the idea of "chairness".
Frank: It is an area of purely subjective reality. So nothing actually exists as an objective observable form..everything is to do with subjective concepts.. and F4 is the source of all concepts that eventually manifest in objective reality.
Ascended Master Teachings: The identity realm. This is the highest frequency spectrum in the material world, and it is the first realm that spiritual light "enters" as it is lowered in vibration. Thus, this is where the light begins to take on the forms that will eventually manifest as anything from galaxies to your physical body. At this level is stored the blueprint for all matter phenomena.
Frank: This physical system was created from a set of archetypes or blueprints. The archetypes or blueprints are held within Focus 4 of consciousness. All the original models, all the original plans, etc., etc., in a manner of speaking, for our physical reality and every other physical reality within our system, are all held in Focus 4.
Now, as you can see these are all painstakingly obviously talking about the same thing.. but just in case we needed more:
Frank: When we engage with Focus 4 we become our 'Wider Selves'... Ultimately, sampling F4 consciousness can be a very rewarding experience when you get it right. Because then all your Wider Self is laid open for you and you can revel in the excitement and the enjoyment of it all.
Theosophy: The form aspect of the soul exists at the level of the abstract mental plane.
Leadbeater: All that we have hitherto attempted to indicate in this description may be taken as applying to the mental plane where functions the reincarnating ego — the true home of the soul of man, in which he passes from life to life throughout the whole evolutionary period.
Leadbeater: the reincarnating ego acts as a receptacle or storehouse for the essence of the man's experiences in his various incarnations.
Monroe: IT - The I-There that each of us has, containing all previous and present life personalities.
Monroe and Frank were like completely against religion and as Frank had said "didn't have a religious bone in [their] body". So it's interesting that their model of consciousness matches up perfectly with Theosophy, Leadbeater, and the Ascended Master Teachings which have their basis in religion. They obviously never read the stuff. Some of it having been written nearly 100 years now. So, no, it's not interesting nor coincidence. It's because these states, FoC 1-4, are integral parts of our being and obviously have some basis in reality.
There are many, many more examples that match up. The ones dealing with focus 27 and the akashic records I can't find right now and being that it's about to be new years I have to start getting ready. Happy new years!
There isn't... and eventually you'll figure out why.
Lol ok buddy
Quote from: 2fly4thesky on December 29, 2014, 18:03:52
If you experience yourself One with All then you are having a spiritual experience. You are either 'in' the spiritual realm or are in contact with a being or higher part of yourself that is 'in' the spiritual realm. Therefore, I can label it spiritual.
This oneness with all has been a major connection in clairvoyant dreams. All of them were an exact copy of the future physical world and the personal suffering ect was present, this included the strain upon the metals as things broke to bits.
If it is a spiritual thing it's really nasty on your emotions.
I wouldn't say it's a lesson of sorts, it's on another level. I'm glad I've got control of this now and shut it down at this level of perception.
It's also one of those experiences that are far more real than being in the physical.
No details are missed at all.
Very sad in nearly every experience that occurred.
I don't want to start a fight here but buddhic plane has been described as the intuitional, and the divine love plane.
The Unconditional love/heart energy state described by the focus is the level 18.
here's a good reference about what are the 7 dimensions (planes) enlightenedawareness.wikifoundry.com/page/The+7+Dimensions (http://enlightenedawareness.wikifoundry.com/page/The+7+Dimensions)
Now the Buddhic plane is only the fourth one. and it would spread from focus 18 up to around 27 which you would then raise to the Atmic plane.
The Atmic plane
This plane is the plane of pure spiritual divine will (nothing will stop you if you have something in mind). it is the nirvana plane and you are at the mental state of supreme spiritual bliss(the enlightenment), It is the destruction of your ego, you are one with everyone (I think that's what we meant when we talked about being one with everything) It means that you understand all feelings and situations that someone can get stuck in. You are in the plane where you try to help everyone and you have the power to help them, and the knowledge/wisdom.
The atmic plane in my opinion spread up to focus 27.
The Monadic
Monadic plane which is the creational state and the divine Spark projected by GodHead (at this stage you are probably either dead or in an extreme case: someone who can go in and out of their body at will) (probably very confusing and you probably need to switch between astral and physical constantly) Unless you have something that you need to accomplish before leaving your life, you'd stay in the Monadic plane. It's also the creative state where you learn to create stuff (celestial/universes/spirits or planets).
Monadic plane would go from focus 27 up to focus 49.
At focus 49. You'd need to be exceptionally divine in order to raise yourself up to the Adic plane.
In this plane you would be a substitute to god or part of god.
This plane is the land of The Unknown (THAT) which we all search for. No one reaching that plane would explain it to anyone because no one would understand it in this physical or even astral world. In order to understand it you'd need to go up to the monadic plane which is already something that requires you to leave this world. And you'd need to complete the monadic plane. (every plane requires you to understand a concept, and complete the tests required to advance).
But to sum it up. Buddhic plane is not focus 4, definitely not or else everyone who has visited focus 4 (easily attainable) would be spreading unconditional love.
Unconditional Love is not easy to understand and continuously spread around you. THIS is what Buddhic plane is.
There is a reason why they called it Buddhic plane, because of Buddha.
The description from focus 10 is Mind Awake/Body Asleep. Something that buddha did easily.
And you don't learn unconditional love until focus 18 which is true. Buddha achieved that. And probably much more.
Saying focus 4 is buddhic plane would be disrespectful.
Because everyone who sleep and just learned Lucid dreaming would be at the buddhic plane.
This is why you cannot map the Astral, you learn way too much stuff to say there's a level to everything. Sure focus map is definitely informative and descriptive but when you go in the astral you cannot control which focus level you're gonna go to. It's too complicated to have this in mind when you go there. You cannot project and have in mind the 49 levels of Focus. This would be unpractical and confusing.
I've never bought into the whole "mystical" or "classical" (as I call it) view of the non-physical.
What people call the "higher planes", to me, are just realities which they experienced which were based on higher qualities of consciousness... more progressed towards "Love".
People have experienced these "more Love" realities and began to place them in a hierarchy... because humans LOVE to label and organize things.
They're really just nothing more than "other" realities. It would be like someone, whose current primary reality is one of much less Love than ours projecting into our physical reality... they would then believe OUR reality was some kind of "higher" reality. It's all perception and perspective.
Reality just *is*. Consciousness just *is*.
I am. <-- The ultimate expression
Quote from: Xanth on January 01, 2015, 21:37:28
I've never bought into the whole "mystical" or "classical" (as I call it) view of the non-physical.
What people call the "higher planes", to me, are just realities which they experienced which were based on higher qualities of consciousness... more progressed towards "Love".
People have experienced these "more Love" realities and began to place them in a hierarchy... because humans LOVE to label and organize things.
They're really just nothing more than "other" realities. It would be like someone, whose current primary reality is one of much less Love than ours projecting into our physical reality... they would then believe OUR reality was some kind of "higher" reality. It's all perception and perspective.
Reality just *is*. Consciousness just *is*.
I am. <-- The ultimate expression
It is a hierarchy whether you like it or not Xanth. We need to classify them. If someone who didn't learn unconditional love somehow reached the godhead state(which would never happen unless he completed the previous lessons and planes) his world would only be destruction.
Someone on the adic plane wouldn't be less loving and comprehensive than someone on the buddhic planes.
Once you learn the real unconditional love that spread toward anyone, good or bad persons wouldn't matter, then it's there and it stays.
If I teach you wisdom and told you something that you would never forget then you would bring it with you on all planes.
The 7th dimensions only say what you "Mainly" learn from those... It's not about levels, it's about comprehension and knowledge about something.
Whether you classify it as buddhic plane or focus 18+, it doesn't really matter, what matter is what you have learned from it.
Unconditional love being a part of what you would learn, if someone would hit you for no reason you would let them and you would just go somewhere else but you'd tell yourself it's not his fault if he hit you, it's the anger that was inside him that pushed him to hit you.
Someone who is more wise and knowledgable than someone else will never tell him, he does not boast. He applies his wisdom daily and doesn't care where he is placed in the focus level or the 7th dimensions. His/her only concern is learning more wisdom even if that means dying.
When we are on the path of Astral Projection and climbing the planes of enlightenment only the wisdom and the love/feelings/emotions and awareness/consciousness are important. Where your awareness is (on a level) has no importance whatsoever.
You could remove all those useless description and replace them with the teachings (wisdom/valors/knowledge) that you learn from those and remove all classification... it could be a substitute, but it's already written there what you learn in the astral.
The 7th dimensions only summarize what you are gonna learn in each. They don't include all valors or knowledge because there is way too much to learn and it wouldn't be practical because you gonna learn them anyway as you reach those planes. They only act as a guide.
Another thing is, those teachings and those descriptions are very very VERY important for one simple reason: If you wouldn't have been taught those things Xanth you would never remember everything you have seen in the astral. When you read stuff like that online, it triggers something in your consciousness that makes you more aware and more attentive to what you are going to learn in that experience.
If I am told that the next thing I have to learn in order to succeed in a plane is unconditional love, then my consciousness and awareness will all be focus toward that one goal of unconditional love.
If no one would have told you that in order to be like god you have to be one with everything, you would probably never had figured it out by yourself either. You had to put your consciousness and awareness in that direction in order to learn the meaning of it.
The hierarchy is important but isn't at the same time, it's solely purpose is to inform us and guide us toward our next goal. It doesn't matter if it's called Astral Planes, Dimensions, Focus Levels, or whatever we want to call it, only the information is important.
If anyone told me that they have been to a high focus level or Astral Plane just to prove a point, I would tell myself that this person is boasting and I wouldn't believe him. Simply because he wants to prove a point. When you learn something in the astral you just want to share your knowledge and wisdom in order for everyone to have that important knowledge. Not the other way around.
It's clear you believe heavily in the classical methodology of non-physical exploration. That's cool. :)
We just have completely different experiences...
The only thing I'll say is this: "Hierarchy" is as subjective a label as "lucid dream" or "astral projection" is.
Quote from: Xanth on January 02, 2015, 01:36:08
It's clear you believe heavily in the classical methodology of non-physical exploration. That's cool. :)
We just have completely different experiences...
The only thing I'll say is this: "Hierarchy" is as subjective a label as "lucid dream" or "astral projection" is.
Yes indeed, to me they are just as a tool to awaken curiosity inside you. And I do make decisions based on what people say here, like I just did with what you told me. If there was no described "Astral Plane" or focus level or anything like this it wouldn't matter, people would still make a list of important valors/knowledge and wisdom for others to learn (they would probably still put a label on it) sadly lol.
So even tho all theses labels or hierarchies are annoying because let's face it, there's way too many of them, they are still very informative.
And they touch that curiosity of yours, and that's what's important. It connects to more people intellectually and spiritually in order for all of them to reach the eventual enlightenment.
If we wouldn't have any idea of what dreams are or what LD's/AP or OoBe are we would still be able to access the information from the other realm every time we'd go sleep, if we had the knowledge about valors and wisdom. That, plus a little meditation knowledge (emptying your mind).
But those things that we look for when we are on the brim of enlightenment are required in order to succeed and attain a new level of instructions/teaching.
No one can gain access to the highest teaching without beforehand seeking information about a lower subject. Exactly like mathematics, I couldn't just go and try to learn quantum physics or computer engineering without learning basic algebra and algorithms. I wouldn't understand anything about it.
This is why that we classified astral planes, dimensions or focus levels. If I didn't learn unconditional love, I couldn't just go and try to learn deep spiritual stuff (or the Spark of what god is). They just classify it in order of the easiest to the hardest just like a teacher would teach the basic mathematics before touching algebra.
How I see it is that (this is what is happening to me right now) when the real enlightenment process kicks in, you won't be able to stop it. Your curiosity is far to great and you need to learn deeper stuff about it, and this is weird because I've been reading about enlightenment for the past year or so and all these symptoms and things that you begin to think as you evolve, well all theses thoughts are written there.
All desires go away, all the bad thoughts, unconditional love kicks in, then you have the divine will, and the divine/spiritual ecstasy like saint-theresa. Theses are all symptoms and the list goes on. But all of that is reachable only by understanding basic values/valors/knowledge/wisdom. Eventually your logic is transformed into some kind of intuition and the things you learn keeps evolving. The list goes on and on but eventually you make your own conclusions.
So, even without labels, enlightenment would still take place, is it easier to attain it with labels? I don't think it matters because eventually when your spirit is tired of suffering (let's say reincarnation process and eternal restarting process). When the stress and the suffering is too great for the spirit, it will seek a way to avoid it. That's where the real enlightenment begins. You need a bit of luck tho. If someone is in enlightenment process but finds no information at all on any valors or anything. Then he's gonna have a hard time and probably fail the attempt until he reach a life where he can begin the process. How many lives does it take? I think it depends on the teachings understood by the student. If he understand everything and keep learning then the process will be shortened very fast and he might attain Enlightenment in a single life time.
It's always annoying talking about labels because, they are different experiences for everyone and they are invented and re-invented, shaped and eventually you are no longer sure of what you are actually reading. You need to question everything and not "swallow" everything that comes your way. You need to seek the one that reaches you at the deepest level of your spirituality and then make your own conclusions. But information is good, that way you realize the alternatives of what you could do and you realize the choices and which one touches you more.
The only true destiny in all of this I think is the enlightenment. I think that every spirit is destined to be enlightened but what you make of your lives is your choice and your choice only.
I see what you're saying... but you're completely stuck on "physical reality concepts". You've gotta look beyond that.
As I've said before... I can't exactly blame anyone for that. We're all indoctrinated into what humanity believes a "human" is or should be.
It's just an extremely limited perception of self and reality... and ultimately a self-defeating perception.
As for Enlightenment... you'd probably benefit from listening to this Adyashanti recording:
http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2014/02/13/adyashanti-myths-of-enlightenment-awakening/
He puts it in an easy to understand way... brought a lot into perspective for my own journey.
"Before Enlightenment: Chop wood, carry water
After Enlightenment: Chop wood, carry water"
One last thing I forgot to mention... as long as you're seeking enlightenment then you'll never actually find enlightenment.
If I say, if I talk about, 'I want to be enlightened...' it implies a future. And there isn't any.( Byron Katie)