A general question to anyone: Is the shamanic journey the same as AP? The shamanic descriptions of lower, middle and upper worlds differ from what I've experienced and read about from the astral realms. Are they just different perceptions of the same realms?
Thanks, Siòn
A Shamanic Journey is a specific way of accessing nonphysical reality, Astral Projection is a more general approach- you go over here, and see what you see- while on a journey there is a more directed path you take.
As someone who is starting this type of pathworking, I think that they are generally similar to what can be considered the planes- I think for example, that Middle Earth is the Real Time Zone and the lower and upper worlds are regions in the astral- possibly part of the belief system territories and what is known as the upper astral is roughly what the upper worlds are, but they might include from the mental to what is known as the buddhic plane.
The nomenclature in shamanism comes from a system of possibly celtic or native origin, while the 'planes' come from theosophy, which can be considered a westernization of eastern systems.
So, kind of sort of.
:-D
I'd say it's all in your perspective.
My perspective is that they're all really the same thing.
Quote from: Xanth on July 12, 2011, 08:53:41
I'd say it's all in your perspective.
My perspective is that they're all really the same thing.
If by that you mean the experience/regions or planes or focus levels, I agree.
If you mean the process itself, I disagree, because journeying is very specific and guided way to project.
Quote from: CFTraveler on July 12, 2011, 15:41:02
If by that you mean the experience/regions or planes or focus levels, I agree.
If you mean the process itself, I disagree, because journeying is very specific and guided way to project.
Indeed, the first one. :)
Thanks for the responses!
Astral projection, shamanic traveling or journeys, lucid dreaming, regression to explore past lives - can all be perceived as different aspects of the same thing. In other words, we live in one dimension (ie what is socially acceptable as 'physical life'), and what happens when you engage in one of these exercises, is simply a shift in vibration with intent (to travel, visit someone, explore, etc.), where you can just let your mind take you wherever it sees fit, or where you can maintain some control of your journey.
This is a subject that deserves more words than the rather vague summary above, but you probably already know that :-)
shamanic journeying is more akin to phasing in method, because it usually involves a "visualization journey".
that said, it is also usually quite dependent on preconceived notions as you have discovered with the distinction between worlds. i'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, it's actually a useful guide, the trick is just to find the tradition that provides the proper myth for you to follow. "shamanic" journeying typically is quite nature focused, whereas something like christo-pagan pathworking might be more focused on something like the arthurian legend or greek myth. or you might be more inclined toward the more modern hermetic approach and use "traditional pathworking" vis a vie the tarot and the kabbalistic tree of life.
but in the end, same place.
i've found that the only distinction that is necessary is between this world and the other world. any destination can be attributed to one or the other (in effect). in truth, there isn't a here or there, there is just a here and the perspective by which we choose to observe that here. we call these different perspectives things like "AP/OBE/LD/etc.", and each of these is very different, but it is only a different way of looking at the one reality, not a different reality.
Hey Sion,
If your looking for a great author who utilizes the shamanic way of journeying, including reentering dreams, but built for a contemporary Westerner, I would recommend Robert Moss and his series of books, especially Conscious Dreaming.
QuoteAs someone who is starting this type of pathworking, I think that they are generally similar to what can be considered the planes- I think for example, that Middle Earth is the Real Time Zone and the lower and upper worlds are regions in the astral
Middle Earth... Middle Earth... you mean... where these guys live...?
(http://img.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/8/2/3/5/0/orig-82350.jpg)
Sorry, carry on!
Quote from: c0sm0nautt on July 19, 2011, 10:12:24
Hey Sion,
If your looking for a great author who utilizes the shamanic way of journeying, including reentering dreams, but built for a contemporary Westerner, I would recommend Robert Moss and his series of books, especially Conscious Dreaming.
I have his book "Dreamways of the Iriquois".....I was less than impressed.
That said, his book "Active Dreaming" is quite good.
Quote from: shapechanger87 on July 19, 2011, 04:22:24
Astral projection, shamanic traveling or journeys, lucid dreaming, regression to explore past lives - can all be perceived as different aspects of the same thing. In other words, we live in one dimension (ie what is socially acceptable as 'physical life'), and what happens when you engage in one of these exercises, is simply a shift in vibration with intent (to travel, visit someone, explore, etc.), where you can just let your mind take you wherever it sees fit, or where you can maintain some control of your journey.
This is a subject that deserves more words than the rather vague summary above, but you probably already know that :-)
Quote from: personalreality on July 19, 2011, 09:45:23
shamanic journeying is more akin to phasing in method, because it usually involves a "visualization journey".
that said, it is also usually quite dependent on preconceived notions as you have discovered with the distinction between worlds. i'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, it's actually a useful guide, the trick is just to find the tradition that provides the proper myth for you to follow. "shamanic" journeying typically is quite nature focused, whereas something like christo-pagan pathworking might be more focused on something like the arthurian legend or greek myth. or you might be more inclined toward the more modern hermetic approach and use "traditional pathworking" vis a vie the tarot and the kabbalistic tree of life.
but in the end, same place.
i've found that the only distinction that is necessary is between this world and the other world. any destination can be attributed to one or the other (in effect). in truth, there isn't a here or there, there is just a here and the perspective by which we choose to observe that here. we call these different perspectives things like "AP/OBE/LD/etc.", and each of these is very different, but it is only a different way of looking at the one reality, not a different reality.
Thanks for the elaborations. I've always believed that there is only one "reality" expressed in many ways. I suppose it's all about how we imagine everything.
Quote from: personalreality on July 19, 2011, 10:25:57
I have his book "Dreamways of the Iriquois".....I was less than impressed.
That said, his book "Active Dreaming" is quite good.
Quote from: c0sm0nautt on July 19, 2011, 10:12:24
Hey Sion,
If your looking for a great author who utilizes the shamanic way of journeying, including reentering dreams, but built for a contemporary Westerner, I would recommend Robert Moss and his series of books, especially Conscious Dreaming.
Thanks. I think my dad has some of his books. I'll check them out.
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Quote from: Stillwater on July 19, 2011, 10:18:27
Middle Earth... Middle Earth... you mean... where these guys live...?
(http://img.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/8/2/3/5/0/orig-82350.jpg)
Sorry, carry on!
LOL! Thought they looked familiar!
Thanks all, helpful stuff.......Siòn
That's awesome your Dad sounds cool. 8-)
Quote from: c0sm0nautt on July 19, 2011, 18:21:24
That's awesome your Dad sounds cool. 8-)
Not bad for an old fart!