New Scientist's paper about OBE

[Sharpe]

Look pal, I don't know what you're trying to say here, but you can look at reality in any way you want.
The point is not how YOU look at it, the point is how it is.
It always will stay the same, yes there may be 2 poles, but it's easier to look at them with 1's and 0's then to illogicly add the grey part with it.
And in the end it will only lead to reality being 1.
Emotions are always what they are and what they will be, a program to guide us to what evolution desires of us.
Now unless you can look above that, I do not wish to believe anything you are saying even if my feelings say to do so because you use such poem in your writings.
This, I know is just a feeling an emotion given to grasp the same knowledge from movies which is exactly the way you are communicating.
If a movie has a message it will use a close up with strong and hope-full words to give a message to the viewer.
This is what society has thought me, but what reality has thought me is more important.
It thought me that everything is crystal clear and that folks wisdom just complicate things.
If everything isn't clear and it's grey somewhere in the middle, what's the point?
I'm not going to believe it just so I can have the feeling of security, that everything is under control, because it's not.
And that's fine with me, because this gives you the oppertunity to DO everything you want, without thinking of morals and if something is good or bad.
It's just the feelings that limit it.
In the end, there is no good or bad, if good is helping someone else out, I think that's the most hypocritical thing ever.
You act like you are against using people, but you use them to make yourself look good in their eyes.
Just to increase your prestige towards people.
And the funny part is, this isn't done consciously, it's all unconscious behaviour.

Now I'm sorry if I offended you in any way, just thought I had to get this off my back, don't blame me, I'm programmed this way.

[Mustardseed]

Actually this is very much like some Hindues argue. They kall it Karma. In other words Fatalism. I am what I am I cannot and will not fight against it. I will do what I want to do whatever my fancy is, and I am not really responsible.......I am programmed this way.

This seems to advocate a common disregard for social rules, norms, and cultural codes, as well as a almost impulsive behavior, and indifference to the rights and feelings of others. Would you say that you believe that this is a good thing.

Regards Mustardseed

[Selski]

Hi Sharpe

but you can look at reality in any way you want.
The point is not how YOU look at it, the point is how it is

This is a tricky one, because personally I believe that the point IS how you look at it, not how it is.  Actually, to be honest, I don't believe there is a POINT to anything at all, but that's a different discussion... 

If I may, I'll give you an example.

Let's take two children brought up in different households.  Let's look at their lives pre-nursery school (or pre-kindergarten if you are American).

Joe is brought up in a very hateful atmosphere.  He is regularly beaten, abused and has never experienced affection or love.  He learns to fight for attention, to cheat, sneak and lie, as that is what he sees his parents doing.  It is natural for him.  When he gets to school age, he will believe that every family is like his, it's as natural as breathing.  It's all he knows.  It is reality.  Truth.  Fact.

Jim is brought up in a very loving atmosphere.  His parents show him affection, care and attention, without mollycoddling him.  He learns to listen, smile and be happy as that is what he sees his parents doing.  It is natural for him.  When he gets to school age, he will believe that every family is like his, it's as natural as breathing.  It's all he knows.  It is reality.  Truth.  Fact.

What is the actual Truth?  It is neither, but it is one or the other for each child.

The Truth we know can only be based on the experiences we have had so far in our lives (in my opinion).  My Truth before I had ever heard of/experienced OBEs was that I doubted they existed.  Luckily, I've always been open to possibilities and perhaps because of this openness/curiousity, I was able to project.

Truth is a very very moot subject.  So many people wail, "I just want the Truth!"  My belief is there isn't such a thing as One Truth - there are billions and billions and billions of truths - my truth, your truth, Novice's truth, Mustardseed's truth, Mez's truth, etc., etc., etc.

This is what society has thought me, but what reality has thought me is more important.
It thought me that everything is crystal clear and that folks wisdom just complicate things.
If everything isn't clear and it's grey somewhere in the middle, what's the point?
I'm not going to believe it just so I can have the feeling of security, that everything is under control, because it's not.

I'd love to know what you mean by crystal clear.  What's the point of it being crystal clear?  Actually, I'd love to hear what IS the point in your opinion. 

I like the idea of everything NOT being under control.  I'd love for the universe to be one big random chaos thing - that means anything could happen next, which I find exciting.  I suppose this is to do with my beliefs in endless possibilities - the reason I believe this is because it makes me happy 

Don't blame me, I'm programmed this way

This is a cracking quote.  Many years ago, my ex-hubby and I used to go down the pub, have a few drinks and have conversations about life and what it means, all that usual pub stuff.  He came up with a theory that everyone can only be themselves, there is no free-will.  We discussed it for hours, as I felt it was flawed in some way, however I couldn't put my finger on the flaw.  We even discussed the fact that anyone who murders or rapes is excused from the crime because they were always meant to be that way - it wasn't their fault if you like.  The reason I couldn't put my finger on the flaw is because the theory is a clever little circle that you can't break - it always comes back to "you can only be you, you will only ever do what you are supposed to do"

Your quote reminded me of this.  What are your thoughts on after/before life.  If you say you are programmed, does this mean that you believe someone/something has programmed you, or did you programme yourself before you landed on this earthly realm?  Again, just curious as to your views.  As you know, I believe in endless possibilities so whatever you say is most likely going to be of interest to me.

The trouble with saying that you KNOW the Truth and the rest of us can believe what the hell we like leaves little or no room for discussion.  Which is a shame because this is a discussion forum, to share views/opinions and listen to others.  After a while, members will become frustrated with your "all-knowing" attitude and will either attack or make fun of you, as you have experienced.  And the added problem is that the subjects we discuss here tend to be subjective and based on personal experience, which is not like joining a discussion forum about whether a chair is a chair is a chair...    You will always get different views/opinions/facts/truths. 

One of our most respected members, Frank, claimed he knew the Truth, above all else.  For me, when someone starts talking like that, I tend to switch off and it has the knock-on effect of disbelieving everything they have ever said/will say, which is a shame.  However, that is most likely because of my upbringing and the experiences I have had thus far in my life.  Or it might that I am programmed that way! 

Sarah

[Novice]

First off Sharpe, take a deep breath and calm down.

Apparently I was unclear in what I was saying, so let me try it again.

Look pal, I don't know what you're trying to say here, but you can look at reality in any way you want.
The point is not how YOU look at it, the point is how it is.

By "the point" I'm assuming you mean reality? If so, then I disagree with this statement. Reality, fact and truth are not the same things. What I was trying to explain was pretty much what Sarah put into concrete examples with Jim and Joe. Reality is what you perceive it to be. To take this further, if you put Jim and Joe, with their backgrounds as Sarah described them, into the exact same situation as an adult, they will react differently. Not because the situation is different, because their perception of it, based on their own history/experiences is different.

I'm not going to believe it just so I can have the feeling of security, that everything is under control, because it's not.

If you re-read my post you will notice several times I mentioned not believing what you read just because you read it somewhere. In fact in the last paragraph of my initial post, I said NOT to believe anything you read about this stuff until you can prove or disprove it for yourself. I have never and will never suggest someone "take my word" on something like this.


Lastly, Sarah is correct about this being a discussionforum. You mentioned elsewhere that you came here to discuss these things. Yet, when someone presents their own views, you stomp them down without considering them. That isn't discussion. Additionally, most of the topics on this forum are about things that can be neither proved nor disproved with science. Its all a matter of belief. And you are free to disagree as much as you want.

However, if you post here, people will respond. Now whether they respond politely or rudely is dependent, for the most part, on the tone of your post. So, going forward, I would suggest you think about what you type before you type it. If someone posts something that doesn't make sense, simply reply with "Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying." Simple respect towards other members is one of the stipulations of the acceptable use policy here.

[Sharpe]

Hey, I just noticed a few things in the last 3 posts, I'd like to share my thoughts about that.

Free-will and reality.

I don't know how there can be more "truths" or "facts" then just 1.
Let's divide them from what we are thinking.
Selski you say that what humans think the truth is, is the truth, but this is subjectively.
Objectively there is just 1 reality.
That is what I think everyone wants to know.

In my map however, I believe humans are no more then matter.
Just look at it logicly, can you say that a human being besides you is conscious?
Can you say that you are conscious?
Why?
Just because you think you are doesn't mean you are, you could've just been programmed to think so.
Besides that point, if someone was conscious of what he was doing all the time, the consciousness couldn't catch up. Consciousness can be just a simple program not a complicated multiple reality/universe thing.
That's why we have a subconscious, it thinks for us.
So if there is a thing like the subconscious, what's the point of the consciousness?
That is where I always get stuck, but I will figure it out sooner or later.

So my belief on this subject is that there is no "me" "your" or "us" it is all 1.

"What are your thoughts on after/before life"
Well I honestly think everything that lives, follows the same rule that was given by DNA, it is build on progress.
The program in our brains was developed for this purpose, that's noticable.
So if it was just a code, the way the brain was programmed was mostly luck, or maybe not, maybe even THAT was in the DNA code of the first living creature. - My theory, not proven.

[malganis]

So if there is a thing like the subconscious, what's the point of the consciousness?

Subconscious caries out what ever consciousness tells it. It doesn't question your thoughts. You can be conscious of only 7 bits of information at any moment of the time but the subconscious can be aware of much much more so it has to filter that information of you would be flooded and there comes the filters and maps. Subconscious takes care that you are aware of informations that are not in contradiction with your map of reality.

So if two people look at the same situation they would interpret it differently according to their beliefs and experiences they had or in other words depending in what reality tunnel they are living. For example one man is a avid meat eater and another strict vegan and they go in the wild and they see hunter who caught a deer and the first one say great, have a goulash while vegan frowns upon it and making him sick. Same situation different interpretation. Was the act of killing the deer good or bad? Who is right and what is the truth?

I'm not sure if there is such a thing as absolute truth but this definition of enlightenment makes sense. Enlightment is the freedom to choose, unfettered by ignorance, attachment, prejudice, fear, or coercion.

[Sharpe]

Subconscious caries out what ever consciousness tells it. It doesn't question your thoughts.

No that's not it.

I do in someway agree to the last part about enlightenment.

[Novice]

In my map however, I believe humans are no more then matter.

I agree. Human beings are made of matter. However, I also beleive that we (you, me, and any other sentient being) operate through physical bodies to interact in the physical world. I believe that we are seperate from those bodies and thus, what happens to them only affects 'us' (our consciousness) to the point at which we allow it.

Just look at it logicly, can you say that a human being besides you is conscious?
Can you say that you are conscious?
Why?
Just because you think you are doesn't mean you are, you could've just been programmed to think so.

That is certainly a possibility. Not one that I agree with, but it is a possibility none the less. If you are correct, then all of our discussions here are essentially moot. Everything we do, say and think is irrelevant. In fact, thinking is really an illusion too then. If we were 'programmed' to think these types of things, then our thoughts are merely pre-programmed responses. They mean nothing. And if they mean nothing, than none of this can be real.

Do I understand your theory on this?

Besides that point, if someone was conscious of what he was doing all the time, the consciousness couldn't catch up. Consciousness can be just a simple program not a complicated multiple reality/universe thing.
That's why we have a subconscious, it thinks for us.
So if there is a thing like the subconscious, what's the point of the consciousness?
That is where I always get stuck, but I will figure it out sooner or later.

Ah, I disagree with this. The subconscious does not think for us. Science (if you agree that psychology is a science) has shown that the conscious part is where we do our active thinking. The subconscious is what controls/operates basic functions, eliminating the need for conscious thought. These are rote functions, and thus, only need a "simple program", to use your terminology. Maybe you meant to reverse these? I don't know.

I had to chuckle at the "consciousness couldn't catch up" comment. I'm not sure what you meant by it, but it sounded funny. I envisioned this brain running hard trying to catch up to a body.    

Remaining conscious of all your actions is no easy feat, however, it is possible. That, I believe, is a goal every individual should strive for. (again, my opinion only). The subconscious is the seat of emotions and history. From it is how we color our view of the world. The conscious part of the mind is the logical side. That is the part that can be an objective observer. If I understand your theory on this, I would have expected you to advocate the conscious over the subconscious -- logical over emotional.

Just out of curiosity, have you read any books on autocratic societies? This is essentially where it seems your beliefs/theory lie. If so, do you see them as true or real?

[Sharpe]

That's amazing, I was just reading "The Prince" just a minute ago before I checked for a response lol.

The last part in your reply is a miscommunication I think, or maybe I just wrote something different from what I meant.

I mean that the subconscious is a spunge that programs itself after it has the knowledge of prohibiting or allowing any thought that is different from what is morally accepted as "normal" to reach the consciousness.
Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word "think" in my last post.
Maybe, the subconscious is located in the amygdala and also the hippocampus, forming the subconscious.
But I read on brainmind.com, that the part that limits or prohibits thoughts for reaching the consciousness is the frontal lobe, which is logical after experiencing how alcohol works.
Alcohol firstly anaesthetizes the frontal lobe, it should enhance any functions the frontal lobe has.
So like we know the first effect of alcohol is that you do things that you normally wouldn't.
If what I said above made sense we now know that the subconscious is also a part of the frontal lobe.

But I have not enought knowledge to go too deep on this, or else I would mess up everyones maps that reads this (if it isn't true), I apologize.

Maybe the most simple metaphor I can give about what I meant is any small form of life.
They certainly don't have consciousness, or they do but they just don't have the tools to communicate.
But taken the first case, the animals are doing fine.
And if small forms of life can live without the consciousness, why do we need it?

I still don't feel like I have said exactly what I wanted to say, but there's a really good movie on, so I'm going to go watch that.

[T.L.]

"transplanted organs affected the personality of the person who received the organ. Personal characteristics of the donor were caried over to the other person. For example a guy got one organ (i dont remember exactly which) from a person who died in early twenties in motorcycle incident and who liked eating chicken and led unhealthy lifestyle. Then that guy started eating chicken although he never ate it before and started to act differently. Some people also gor memories from other person."

  malganis, wasnt that the movie "body parts"? Heh. Im just being sarcastic, my apologies. I get tired of reading replies by opponents of the obe experience, especially when they claim to have had an obe but knew it was just a dream. Each is in the right to have their own opinion, but a lot of what some of these opponents claim seems like only a semi lucid dream, where they have very little control over the dream itself. I dont think a lot of what some of these people described was a full blown obe in the first place. When I first had semi lucid dreams it was interesting to say the least, but I would never mix a lucid or semi lucid dream up with obe's I would only do that if I never had an obe. Thats okay though, whoever wishes to worship the physical and materialism are in a way trapped but in the physical mindset they are right to. If I were to look at this argument from the physical side and mindset I would say that the ones who are were completely in the right. However looking from this from my perspective and from my point of view its an illogical outlook. No matter what evidence or proof I put up will do anything to sway someone looking from purely the physical aspect, and vice versa. However in the debate aspect I think that a lot of people are losing direction, with comments such as "you are getting upset because you can't win fair and square". Come on most of you are beyond these comments, however not all of you.

[kailaurius]

Remaining conscious of all your actions is no easy feat, however, it is possible. That, I believe, is a goal every individual should strive for. (again, my opinion only).

Hello Novice,

I definitely agree with you on that.  Maintaining a constant state of awareness has been one of several goals of mine.  I've been practicing awareness for the last 13 months, and I have made pretty good progress so far.  Some days are easier than others, but it has been challenging at times to maintain a constant state of awareness which has included remaining conscious of all my actions, thoughts, and feelings.  I have found through my experience the more I practice the easier it is to maintain awareness to the point that it is automatic.  My ultimate goal in this particular exercise is to maintain a 24 hour awareness, and I am getting close.  I'm now at the point that I maintain a constant state of awareness all throughout the day and almost the entire night.  Training my mind to stay awake and aware throughout the night has been quite challenging to say the least, but it's gradually getting easier every night, and I feel that it will not be too much longer before I will have achieved 24 hour awareness.

Anyway, I could go into a lot more with my experience on the topic of remaining conscious of all my actions, but I really didn't want to make my reply this long.  I just wanted to add a little potential confirmation to your statement I quoted above by the experience I've had thus far with awareness.

[Novice]

Kailaurius-
Glad to see you have similar experiences. I am far from the 24 hour mark, but I'm persistent. As you say, I have my ups and downs when it comes to maintaining it. However, one nice 'side effect' I personally have noticed, is that the more consistent I am during the day, the easier it is during the night. Meaning, my quantity as well as quality of OBEs/Phasing experiences dramatically increases the more I practice awareness (or as the buddhists call it: mindfullness).

The one interesting thing I noticed during waking hours, is the way you can actually see thoughts form and merge, before they actually appear. It's really interesting. It's almost like sitting in a boat, on a perfectly still lake, and looking straight down. Then you see a thought emerge, like some great abstract thing rising from the depths. And you consciously know something is coming, but it isn't till it's close to the surface that you can actually understand what it is. Then, you have the choice of letting it fully emerge, or simply fade away. It's almost like sitting and watching the subconscious work. I'm not nearly proficient enough to experience this too often, but I've experienced it enough to realize that when aware, I have total control over all thoughts and, thus all actions. And you then really get an amazingly acute view of how much of your actions are controlled by random/pre-set responses to your surroundings. Things that, given the chance, you really wouldn't say/do. It's depressing and scary.

Ah well...all is a learning curve!

[iNNERvOYAGER]

Anyone can say OBEs are all in the mind (and that you dont really go out of the body) but if you look closely at what frank says about Focus 4 (kinda like the source of it all?) technically we may think we are physically moving about all day long but we never actually go ANYWHERE... its all in our mind.

I think you cracked the code here:
"They are FOCUSES OF ATTENTION along your very own 'Consciousness Continuum" Frank's way of saying "Out-of-body experiences are all in the mind"?

So in that respect, Andy Coghlan and Frank Kepple are totally in agreement.

I take back what I said about Andy Coghlan being ignorant, he's actually a pretty smart dude IMHO.   

[Mez]

i think he's approaching it wrong tho.

Franks right for sure... but frank had the experience to back up what he said he didnt just stick a helmet on someone and confuse them as to where they were. Thats the ignorant part.

[greggkroodsma]

We have replaced honesty with fallacy.
Edgar Cayce was probably one of the last real OBEers.
As of today, there is no clear atmosphere to do what you want as far as OBE, so you must rely on memory.  There is drugs of all kinds that affect every aspect of being; there's alchohol.  All of the nuclear facilities that are leaking some sort of radiation, microwave ovens, computers, electronic equipment, electric lines that run everywhere, etc. etc. ad nauseum.  So it is not a bad thing that we cannot go out-of-body.  What is a bad thing is that we can do it and are oppressed from doing it because of the obstructions in the atmosphere.

Quote from: Mez on September 04, 2007, 06:45:16
Anyone can say OBEs are all in the mind (and that you dont really go out of the body) but if you look closely at what frank says about Focus 4 (kinda like the source of it all?) technically we may think we are physically moving about all day long but we never actually go ANYWHERE... its all in our mind.

That's exactly right!  We go in one big circle; the same circle day after day.  And the circle is getting smaller and smaller with more and more obstructions.

The thing about the mind is it is a totally different world.  A world of ions; not atomic, but ionic.  The sun is not atomic; it is ionic.  Your thoughts are the same.  But you are restricted by the magnetic field around the earth and it is tightening because of the metal that is being put on the earth and that is shrinking the magnetic protection between the earth and sun and causing global warming but that is a different subject altogether.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

Dude! that's just what I was going to say, and you beat me to it!

Well done, I applaud you.  _(\