Are the worlds we travel into during an OOBE or AP real?
I ask because I always thought that everything that happened to me in my lucid dreams was a projection of my own mind. I also ask because I can be an obnoxious dreamer and I sometimes play rough with my dreams... playing funny tricks on my dreams to amuse myself.
If I knew for a fact they were REAL... well... lol... that might change my mind about tossing and pushing people around in my dreams. I know it would...
So what is the real story??
Everything during a projection is real, no matter how you define "real." The only issue would be if you are creating it or not, and that is true some (or most) of the time.
you experience it, it is real
Maybe they are being created through you. Maybe someone is using your memories to produce a place or a situation that will appear to be real and familiar, or strange and scary. But who could be doing that? You should try to find out, and don't draw conclusions before testing a lot.
I'll be just as vague as everyone else. :)
You can't spell "reality" without "real". :D
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite? :-P
I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.
For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds. :evil:
Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...?
I think it depends on how you define "real". However it will most likely have to same answer as "Is the physical world real"? :)
Quote from: shineling on September 08, 2010, 16:01:13
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite? :-P
I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.
For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds. :evil:
Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...?
In my opinion, karma is the last thing you need to worry about. ;)
Quote from: shineling on September 08, 2010, 16:01:13
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite? :-P
I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.
For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds. :evil:
Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...?
If you worry about karma, you must know it's supposed to be affected even by negative feelings and thoughts, not just actions. So it wouldn't matter if it's real!
Anything that happens to a person, regardless of where it takes place, will leave a form of impact. that makes it real, to that individual. So if you experience it....Its real to you. Its as simple as that in my mind ^_^....
~Za Hourou Iki
Everything is real.
Like someone else said above, if you can experience it, it's real.
No offense to the original poster but a lucid dream is different than a full blown out of body experience. I'm just putting that out there because it seems in the original post the op seems to make little distinction between the two. Also yes what you do experience is real... but to me that word is useless when you think about it. Thoughts are real because you experience them, emotions are real, the physical world is real... anything you experience first hand is real. The main difference is, whether the thing or place you experienced was created by you or not. I've been to a good amount of places and there was and is no doubt in my mind that those places were completely real. I've had self created experiences before, but even though I may have created a temporary place (purposefully and accidentally) it does not mean they were not real. Once you gain more experiences with full blown out of body experiences perhaps you might come to the same conclusion.
Quote from: T.L. on September 25, 2010, 05:11:14
No offense to the original poster but a lucid dream is different than a full blown out of body experience. I'm just putting that out there because it seems in the original post the op seems to make little distinction between the two. Also yes what you do experience is real... but to me that word is useless when you think about it. Thoughts are real because you experience them, emotions are real, the physical world is real... anything you experience first hand is real. The main difference is, whether the thing or place you experienced was created by you or not. I've been to a good amount of places and there was and is no doubt in my mind that those places were completely real. I've had self created experiences before, but even though I may have created a temporary place (purposefully and accidentally) it does not mean they were not real. Once you gain more experiences with full blown out of body experiences perhaps you might come to the same conclusion.
Really?
I see the only separation between the two experiences as being an illusion created by your own conscious awareness.
People get confused thinking that all these experiences are separate, when the only thing that changes between them all is that conscious awareness and nothing more. THAT is a pretty strong illusion that you have to get past first. :)
Who knows if it's real or not. I kinda stopped caring a long time ago. I learn from the experiences regardless.
I do know for sure that I'm not that clever to think up all of these different random people and places. And I'm an artist. You'd think if it was all in our heads that many characters and places would be very similar but not in my case. Unless I'm visiting the same place, the people and topographies are different.
Quote from: Naykid on September 25, 2010, 11:57:19
Who knows if it's real or not. I kinda stopped caring a long time ago. I learn from the experiences regardless.
I do know for sure that I'm not that clever to think up all of these different random people and places. And I'm an artist. You'd think if it was all in our heads that many characters and places would be very similar but not in my case. Unless I'm visiting the same place, the people and topographies are different.
My Aikido sensei runs an EFT seminar and he gets people asking if this EFT stuff is real... like some people will come up to him and tell him it's all in their heads.
He tells them... "If it works for someone, why does it matter how or why it works? The point is that it worked/helped."
That's really my position on this as well, Nay.
Who cares if it's real or not. Indeed. :)
Quote from: Xanth on September 25, 2010, 11:21:12
Really?
I see the only separation between the two experiences as being an illusion created by your own conscious awareness.
People get confused thinking that all these experiences are separate, when the only thing that changes between them all is that conscious awareness and nothing more. THAT is a pretty strong illusion that you have to get past first. :)
Uh there are huge differences. I used to think that a long time ago (lucid dreams and obes are synonymous)... that is until I had full blown obes. I've had lucid dreams as a child quite often. So when I heard people talk about astral projection, my first thought was that they just experienced a lucid dream. At times when I attempt a obe I will pass out but later end up in a dream, realize it is a dream and try to end it. When I successfully end a lucid dream I find that I am not really where it appeared to be in the dream but in my bed or close to the general vicinity of the physical body. If these two experiences were identical that would not be the case. When I had my first legit obe, it was entirely different and I knew instantly it was not a lucid dream. As far as the argument about what is real, or not that is just something you have to figure out on your own. After time, and effort esp. if you are going about validations you will find the answer.
Quote from: T.L. on September 26, 2010, 05:11:48
Uh there are huge differences. I used to think that a long time ago (lucid dreams and obes are synonymous)... that is until I had full blown obes. I've had lucid dreams as a child quite often. So when I heard people talk about astral projection, my first thought was that they just experienced a lucid dream. At times when I attempt a obe I will pass out but later end up in a dream, realize it is a dream and try to end it. When I successfully end a lucid dream I find that I am not really where it appeared to be in the dream but in my bed or close to the general vicinity of the physical body. If these two experiences were identical that would not be the case. When I had my first legit obe, it was entirely different and I knew instantly it was not a lucid dream. As far as the argument about what is real, or not that is just something you have to figure out on your own. After time, and effort esp. if you are going about validations you will find the answer.
Well, my experiences are quite contrary to yours then.
My Lucid Dreams are quite easily turned into Astral Projections. The only thing that changes is my awareness... this is what I feel you're confused about. You're confusing the change as if it was coming from outside yourself as if the environment itself was somehow different... the area of consciousness that you project in, is the same area of consciousness you lucid dream in, which is ALSO the same area of consciousness that you dream in. All that changes is *you*.
The ILLUSION is that they're separate environments based upon our limited 'human life' thought patterns. You have to think outside the box.
But as I said, that's just my experience of them.
Quote from: T.L. on September 26, 2010, 05:11:48
Uh there are huge differences. I used to think that a long time ago (lucid dreams and obes are synonymous)... that is until I had full blown obes. I've had lucid dreams as a child quite often. So when I heard people talk about astral projection, my first thought was that they just experienced a lucid dream. At times when I attempt a obe I will pass out but later end up in a dream, realize it is a dream and try to end it. When I successfully end a lucid dream I find that I am not really where it appeared to be in the dream but in my bed or close to the general vicinity of the physical body. If these two experiences were identical that would not be the case. When I had my first legit obe, it was entirely different and I knew instantly it was not a lucid dream. As far as the argument about what is real, or not that is just something you have to figure out on your own. After time, and effort esp. if you are going about validations you will find the answer.
Would you care to expound on that with some more examples?
Its as real as our physical world (or so experienced AP'ers say)
Quote from: Naykid on September 26, 2010, 11:46:17
Would you care to expound on that with some more examples?
ok for example if I am in a lucid dream for example and I'm in a city or wherever I focus on exiting the dream first thing I notice is that the dream will fade out. For a short time everything will be all black like a void, and I'll immediately become aware of the vibrations and normally I'll start seeing from my physical body's perspective like if I laid down on my back I'll be looking at the ceiling as if seeing through my eyelids. From there I exit, other times everything will go like that except I'm already out usually in the same room.
I notice sometimes people talk about going obe from lucid dreams but it seems they never really exited the lucid dream state, they are trapped inside the dream thinking they are seeing their true surroundings but really aren't. It does happen and when I first started that method from lucid dreams it happened to me a lot. Sure the conscious mind is the same for the most part but there are differences and that was what I was trying to articulate they are not the same exact thing. In one you experience a self creAted reality ( subconsciously or otherwise) in the other you experience realities separate from
yourself. When obe'ing it is possible to have objective experiences with practice.
Quote from: shineling on September 08, 2010, 16:01:13
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite? :-P
I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.
For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds. :evil:
Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...?
I can only tell you my experiences with Meditation, OOB, and Astral. This is a culmination of 16 years of practice. The first experience I knew was not just a dream was when I was 10 years old (1980).
It was the middle of the summer in Dana Point (a small beach town on the coast of California). I had been playing with friends all day at the beach, then rode my bicycle home a few miles. I was totally wiped out by the time I got home, and I laid down to take a nap. I was quickly asleep being so tired. I remember almost immediately finding myself in a dream, but I was aware of the dream, which was very odd to me. All my dreams before had just been foggy memories that I struggled to remember once awake. This dream was different in that I immediately realized I was in my own bedroom hovering above my body there deeply asleep. I also felt totally refreshed, even though I knew my body was very tired in reality. I remember feeling a rush of excitement in the instant knowledge of being able to do whatever I wanted, unhindered without a physical body. I quickly wondered if I could fly through the wall, and at that though I instantly did fly through the wall and out into the courtyard in the back of the house. I was even more thrilled that this apparent existence appeared to be without physical rules. I quickly flew over the roof of the unattached bedroom, past the power lines, and directly into the elementary school which backed up against our house. As I flew over heading to the beach I noticed some friends of mine from the neighborhood that were playing ball in the schoolyard. One had a bright red shirt on, the other had a red ball they were throwing against the handball court. I noticed a pair of shows on the roof of of school. They were tennis shoes White, with blue stripes along the soles.
I continued to fly down to the beach, but strangely could not smell the fresh scent of saltwater I had known my entire life, nor could I really hear any waves crashing on the beach. This seemed odd, because I assumed I could hear and smell in this state but I could not. I flew across the sand dunes and down the spot my friends and I had spent the day at. As I flew home I wondered how to get back in my body, and almost became concerned with this thought. Suddenly I was back in my bed, still tired and half asleep, but the dream was so exhilarating I had to get up and go see my friends in the schoolyard. I rode my bike quickly over to the school and found them still there. My friend Tim was wearing a bright red shirt and throwing a large rubber ball against the handball court wall. I asked him how long he had been there and he said 30 minutes or so.
I quickly rode my bike home. I got on top of my house and got to the crest of the roof so I could see onto the roof of the school. I saw a pair of sneakers, white with a blue stripe along the soles of the shoes! I spent the next decade wondering what the experience was and how to get it back. I wanted so badly to do it again but every time I went to sleep it didn't happen. I wondered how I could be out of my "real" body and yet how did my "real" body not die when I was gone? Why did it seem like it happened so fast and yet it had been a good half hour or more through the entire experience? I wondered if this is what it was like when we died. There were so many questions and yet everyone I asked looked at me as if I needed to see a Psychiatrist. In fact my parent did later take me to a Psychologist, who told them I was perfectly normal, but he also could not tell me what had happened and how I could do it again.
This experience happened again to me later in life, I was in the late 20's (1990's). I also validated those experiences with physical and measurable "real" objects, but these stories would take a good portion of a book to write. If you would like to hear about them I will gladly put them into a separate post.
P.S. For some odd reason from then on out all three of my extremely vivid OOB's were a result of laying down to sleep after being totally and thoroughly exhausted. It seems at least for me that I need to be completely physically exhausted, or physically and mentally exhausted before I lay down in order to obtain one of these experiences, though I am not sure why this is a requirement.
Tad
Quote from: T.L. on September 28, 2010, 00:06:42
ok for example if I am in a lucid dream for example and I'm in a city or wherever I focus on exiting the dream first thing I notice is that the dream will fade out. For a short time everything will be all black like a void, and I'll immediately become aware of the vibrations and normally I'll start seeing from my physical body's perspective like if I laid down on my back I'll be looking at the ceiling as if seeing through my eyelids. From there I exit, other times everything will go like that except I'm already out usually in the same room.
I notice sometimes people talk about going obe from lucid dreams but it seems they never really exited the lucid dream state, they are trapped inside the dream thinking they are seeing their true surroundings but really aren't. It does happen and when I first started that method from lucid dreams it happened to me a lot. Sure the conscious mind is the same for the most part but there are differences and that was what I was trying to articulate they are not the same exact thing. In one you experience a self creAted reality ( subconsciously or otherwise) in the other you experience realities separate from
yourself. When obe'ing it is possible to have objective experiences with practice.
I see what you are saying now.. I think. lol That void you speak of is normal... to me.
For example I had a lucid dream where I was floating around and I could see a house in the distance, a house that I had in a dream earlier..not a lucid dream, just a dream that I remembered some things from. Well, I thought about going to the house and Zoom.. I'm in the void for a second, next second standing in front of house. I think it's some kind of travel tunnel. lol a worm hole if you will.
Quote from: T.L. on September 28, 2010, 00:06:42
ok for example if I am in a lucid dream for example and I'm in a city or wherever I focus on exiting the dream first thing I notice is that the dream will fade out. For a short time everything will be all black like a void, and I'll immediately become aware of the vibrations and normally I'll start seeing from my physical body's perspective like if I laid down on my back I'll be looking at the ceiling as if seeing through my eyelids. From there I exit, other times everything will go like that except I'm already out usually in the same room.
I always wonder if that "blackness" is due to a loss of vision, or if everything around me really is just "black".
QuoteI notice sometimes people talk about going obe from lucid dreams but it seems they never really exited the lucid dream state, they are trapped inside the dream thinking they are seeing their true surroundings but really aren't. It does happen and when I first started that method from lucid dreams it happened to me a lot. Sure the conscious mind is the same for the most part but there are differences and that was what I was trying to articulate they are not the same exact thing. In one you experience a self creAted reality ( subconsciously or otherwise) in the other you experience realities separate from yourself. When obe'ing it is possible to have objective experiences with practice.
Ah, I see what you're saying.
You're talking about RTZ projections from a Lucid Dream, right?
Well first, personally, I see very little difference between LDs and APs.
I'll be honest, I've had, at the most, three RTZ projections and at least, one.
If you're saying that there is a difference between "Dreaming" the physical reality and "OBEing" into the physical reality, I couldn't ascertain what that difference was. They felt identical.
I still feel that most people are making a massive mistake in that they're interpreting the change in consciousness as being a difference in 'reality'.
Quote from: Naykid on September 28, 2010, 08:08:16
I see what you are saying now.. I think. lol That void you speak of is normal... to me.
One of my more recent LD's that I converted to an AP, I had the same thing happen.
I wouldn't call it a "void" per se, but when I tried to phase from the non-physical environment I was in to a location in the RTZ, I described it as my vision going to black. Would that be close or somewhat what you experienced as this 'void'?
think about it, if there are really that many people who regularly convert LD to AP then they must be connected.
and the conversion is usually a matter of "grasping" onto full awareness. so it seems like ap is just a more consciously aware ld.
but don't listen to me, that's just a meta-analysis of other people's experiences, i don't LD.
Yeah, to me it doesn't seem that important. The main thing is gaining awareness in another state of consciousness. LD or AP, that's what happens.
The interesting thing is that the astral world never looks the same as the real world no matter what level of projection occurs.
Still... I've been to the same place in the astral world many times. And it stays the same! Meaning... the astral world is real in its own form even tho is it slightly different than the real world.
So... my personal conclusion is that it is a real place with its own unique features almost like an echo of real world reality. It's topography changes slightly when stray dreaming occurs. But if you were to be completely clear headed, it would be a stationary reality with it's own rules and traits.
It would be so interesting to map out this astral world... the astral world that exists without personal dreams in the way. Know what I means? :-) And it would be interesting to ask why it takes on the shape that it does. Can people build a stationary astral world?
Quote from: shineling on September 29, 2010, 13:06:42
The interesting thing is that the astral world never looks the same as the real world no matter what level of projection occurs.
Could you further define "never looks the same"?
As in your visual perception of it?
Or in that the area seems to change layout?
Just curious...
Well... I'll be the first to say I really don't know what I'm talking about. :-D But everytime I go outside in my astral body the neighborhood looks slightly different.
The same house might have a porch when it doesn't in the waking world. The cars sometimes are in different places or not there at all. Things seem to shift a lot sometimes... but if you can stay aware and lucid you'll find the same location and it looks exactly the same - solid.
It's almost as if things are solid until your mind starts wandering. Yeah... I guess things are visually the same at the same locations as they where in all my past OBEs.
Spacial distances are very accurate as well. It's a trick I use to see if I am really in the OBE world and not just dreaming. Like... I can't take shortcuts from A to B in the real astral world as I can in maybe lucid dream. The distance from A to B is always the distance from A to B. So it's not like a quasi reality.
I'm going to try to find an object next time and try moving it. Then come back and see if it's still there. I can usually project 2 or 3 times in a row. They last about 5 minutes a piece. Getting better at staying out for longer periods tho. I've been trying to perfect it... for me it has to do with an attitude of nonchalants. If I get too excited I usually wake up. If I remain impassive and in the moment I can usually stay out longer.
:-)
Ah, I get ya.
"Reality Fluctuations"
Yeah, they're the reason given to why people will wander around their house in an OBE state and things will be 'different'.
I understand what you're saying now. Thanks. ;)
Quote from: ZenTraveler on September 28, 2010, 02:31:50This experience happened again to me later in life, I was in the late 20's (1990's). I also validated those experiences with physical and measurable "real" objects, but these stories would take a good portion of a book to write. If you would like to hear about them I will gladly put them into a separate post.
Yes, please.
I would like to hear them. :)
Sorry I have been busy. My third OOB was during a deep meditation I had been in for well over an hour. I was in my meditation chair and was focusing on deep questions I had wanted answered. It had been years of meditation up to this point and I was reaching states of extreme calmness and serenity. I remember feeling a strange vibration and then a loud noise which seemed very odd. I kept the state I was in despite this odd occurrence and found myself floating above my body. I felt a sense of strong excitement knowing that I was back in a state I had tried to enter for years. As I floated around the room I noticed a ring my wife had been looking for. She had lost it years prior and was a gift from her mother. It was sitting at the far back of a cabinet on top against the wall. I didn't think much more of it, but I started to look around the room more.
I suddenly noticed there were beings around me of which I assumed as ghosts, but just then a was flooded with a feeling of extreme comfort, love, and kindness. I realized I knew all of these people, they were family that had passed before me. At that instant I received the answers I had been looking for and meditating on for years. Everything came into perspective, why I was here, what happened once we left these bodies, everything. I call this an enlightenment because I was changed at that point. No longer could I be afraid of anything, including death. I realized it was simply an extension of existence. I normally don't tell this story because I don't want to push any ideals onto others, or seem to be religious, but this was a profound experience. I feel that the answers to questions anyone asks can be found through personally experience. In fact I once had a master tell me before he left his body "Believe nothing until you have tested and proven it for yourself, books and other humanly thoughts should always be in question as to validity". And so my journey began there.
Once I was back in my body I came back from this deep meditation and looked above the cabinet to find the ring my wife had been looking for. When she got home from work she was thrilled I had found it. Of course she thought I was a "little out there" when I told her how I had found it.
Tad
I like what WASD said. It depends on how you define real. If you study the different spiritual masters, you will understand, intellectually, that there is only one great reality and the rest is illusionary. If you go far enough within yourself you will know, experientially, that there is only one great reality and the rest is illusionary. That does not mean that a table isn't a table or that an astral form isn't an astral form. We have physical senses. We have astral senses. We have mental senses and we have causal senses. All of these senses exist in us right here and right now. It's like you go where your emotions and thoughts take you and you feel and see what has meaning for you. It's all here, past, present and future. We use techniques to adjust our vibrations to feel and see and hear a tiny fraction of what exists.
A lot of what we see, hear, and feel are simply projections of the thoughts, words, and feelings of people on Earth. There's tons of that, right? And the range of quality of these thoughts, words, and feelings goes from downright crappy to sublime. I have to ask myself where I am in this line up.
I have to ask myself If I have actually 'gone' anywhere. Where is the astral 'plane', the mental 'plane. Where is 'heaven' or 'hell'. Different points of awareness. It seems like I have gone seomwhere but I do live within a physical body and it is the task of that body/mind to interpret my experiences. It depends on where your consciousness and awareness is.
PS; Zen Traveler. That's very wonderful.
Thanks. I realize that this method of remembering objects in the current plane of existence as the only way to validate them as "real". Although like you said it's all subjective. Still, if you can find objects you didn't realize were there, then find them once back in your body, it sure makes it more verifiable.
Tad
Quote from: shineling on September 08, 2010, 16:01:13
So the answer really is... we can't know for absolute sure... rite? :-P
I just worry because I don't want to get bad karma messing around with another being's experience.
For example... last night I chased a couple of girls down the street for fun. I scared the pants off them and ran after them making all kinds of rediculous sounds. :evil:
Some people speak of helping others in the OOBE world as they travel to the lower planes to rescue them. But if they aren't real...?
Hi Shine: I am a novice at this but the people who are "experts" at this [Kepple, Buhlman, Moen , Monroe] seem to have established that the worlds you visit and interact with are real by consencus... they exist as long as someone puts energy into their construction and mantainance.. some one has to decide to dismantle them and put energy into their dissolution.. so they are real if you decide to interact in them.
S