Astral lucid Dream or astral projection....

[Milkdrops]

I had a pretty lucid dream last night. Thing is this lucid dream was about astral projection although I cannot remember much of it I do remember bits and pieces such as looking at amazement at my own hand which appeared to be seethrough.

The straight question I have is quite simply: Is this astral projection or was it a lucid dream ABOUT astral projection? (note the difference).

Although it was pretty lucid like anyones dreams lucid or not I was not concious enough to know what was going on until I was fully awake. I'm guessing this was merely a dream and not an actual projection as it would seem conciousness and realization of being 'awake when asleep'
would be more predominant if it was a projection (from what I have heard). But please your views and try and start with a basic Yes or No thx.

[b12145]

does it really matter, because from what your saying you'll never know, you can be conscious or sub-conscious in a dream or astral projection, in both worlds the same laws exist in each world, but in my option i think that the dream world in trully the astral world, there both the same.

[Milkdrops]

but in my option i think that the dream world in trully the astral world, there both the same.



Hmmmm but if the astral world is the same as the "dream world" I dont see what can be accomplished if one is in the dream state where conciousness does not exist until you have woken up. Its just nothingness.

[Selski]

Hmmmm but if the astral world is the same as the "dream world" I dont see what can be accomplished if one is in the dream state where conciousness does not exist until you have woken up. Its just nothingness.

What do you mean, accomplish?  What is it you are trying to achieve?

Have you never learned things from your ordinary non-lucid dreams?  My dreams have taught me lots over the years, as long as I take time to examine them and work out the symbolic meanings.

I agree with b12145 in that the dream state and astral state are the same - it's purely down to the level of lucidity that determines the experience.  Whether they are 'separate' worlds from the physical I'm not sure about, but I like the idea of switching your focus of attention away from the physical and honing into other realities (or other aspects of one big reality!).

You say that dreaming is nothingness - do you mean sleeping without dreaming is nothingness?  Surely dreaming is something...   

Sarah

[Milkdrops]

What do you mean, accomplish?  What is it you are trying to achieve?:

Things such as meeting other spirits and exploring the astral planes


Have you never learned things from your ordinary non-lucid dreams?: 

To be honest like most peoples dreams its all such a mish mash of random information that its hard to really get any messages from them (after waking up and trying to remember)


You say that dreaming is nothingness - do you mean sleeping without dreaming is nothingness?: Surely dreaming is something...   

Hmm its hard for anyone really to explain being asleep or dreaming. All i'll say and i'm sure lots of people would agree is: we dont know we have been asleep and dreaming until we are 100% awake and concious.

I'm not really trying to diss the whole AP community here but if this is as good as it gets (it being in dream form with no awareness or conciousness) then it would seem to be pretty useless as operating in a dream world is still just nothingness and hasnt happened until you wake up. In short: You just dont know its going on.

Does anyone else have any views on this? Its kind of confusing for me as I have been told it happens and when it does it can happen where your as concious as now then I hear about how it happens in dream form which would mean a person is asleep therefore not concious.

[Selski]

Hi Milkdrops

Things such as meeting other spirits and exploring the astral planes

A bit like meeting other people in physical reality and exploring your home town?  Where's your imagination?!!!  

To be honest like most peoples dreams its all such a mish mash of random information that its hard to really get any messages from them (after waking up and trying to remember)

Do you write a dream journal?  Honestly, if you start writing up everything you can remember (however little it may be), including your emotions etc etc etc, and take your dreams seriously, give them respect, then in a few months you'll be having 5 or 6 clear dreams a night, some of them lucid.  I can practically guarantee that, although the key element is for them to be taken seriously.

Hmm its hard for anyone really to explain being asleep or dreaming. All i'll say and i'm sure lots of people would agree is: we dont know we have been asleep and dreaming until we are 100% awake and concious.

Yes I agree in respect to the majority of dreams we have.  However, we are still in an environment (albeit a dream environment), doing whatever it is we do in our dreams.  And the fact that we are not aware it is a dream is neither here nor there, in my opinion, as we can still learn from what our dreams tell us - just as we learn from the experiences we have in waking life.

I'm not really trying to diss the whole AP community here but if this is as good as it gets (it being in dream form with no awareness or conciousness) then it would seem to be pretty useless as operating in a dream world is still just nothingness and hasnt happened until you wake up. In short: You just dont know its going on.

I could separate my experiences as follows.  I don't normally do this, as it gets mightily confusing so I just lump all of them together and call them "experiences"... but for you I'll explain the different types...  

1.  The classic RTZ OBE.  This is where normally just as I'm waking up, my mind is a couple of minutes ahead of my body.  I realise that I'm in a certain state where I am able to leave my body.  So I do, and find myself in the same room that my physical body is in, however usually certain items are misplaced or missing.  I wander around for a while and go through a door/window/wall (without bothering to open the door first).  Sometimes when I'm through the door, I end up in an entirely different environment than the one I was expecting to be in.  This has the effect of confusing me and I normally 'wake up' at this point.  

These experiences are also known as etheric projections.  They are fabulous at first, but after a while I got quite bored, as more often than not, I was always on my own stuck in my own house.  

I did have one RTZ OBE where I decided to go through a picture in the lounge.  That was interesting and the rest of the experience was amazing - almost dreamlike in imagery with pastel coloured hills and castles.  I was fully lucid throughout this experience.  But I can't prove to you that I hadn't fallen asleep and it was all just a pretty dream.  You have to prove these things to yourself.  This is the trouble with projection - it's nigh on impossible to give someone else proof - it's too much of a personal journey.

2.  Lucid dreams.  As soon as I get lucid, the whole (dream)world is my oyster.  I can choose to do whatever I wish.  At times, I deliberately remove the more wacky dream characters and surroundings and choose to "go astral".  The way I do this is normally by going through a door/gate/window and stating my intent as I go through.  I've had some incredible experiences over the years and lucid dreaming is my current favourite hobby!!    

The most memorable experience is when I met a deceased friend.  He had committed suicide some years before and we spent some time together.  He told me to promise him that I wouldn't do what he did (suicide) and I promised him.  If I ever get that low that I would consider suicide, I'm convinced that I wouldn't be able to go through with it - due to this one experience.  Now again, you might say "oh that was just a dream" and I cannot prove to you that I met with this friend.  But I know that it wasn't a dream - I know that I did meet with him somewhere.  

The level of lucidity varies.  At times I've been more lucid than I am now.  And I've experienced 360 degree vision.  And also having the consciousness of three different beings.  It sounds wacky and far out, but at the time it all seemed very normal and natural.

I'm assuming from your words that you've never had a lucid dream?  My suggestion to you would be to use this as a starting point.  Get your dream journal on the go, spend time thinking about your dreams etc etc.  Alternatively if this doesn't appeal to you, then perhaps meditation would be a good start, and learning to use your imagination.  Hone your visualisation skills.  This will take you down the route of "phasing" and if you want to know what this is, there's a cracking thread in the Astral FAQs by Frank.  Phasing is probably the easiest way of projection - it's basically keeping your mind awake as you fall asleep.  When the random wacky images start (which are most likely the onset of dreams), observe them and stay awake.  Before long, an image will open out to you and you will find in an instant that you are no longer looking at the image in your mind, but you are now in the image in glorious 3-D, free to explore with your mental awareness fully in tact - what fun!  

I hope this is more helpful.  

Sarah

[Milkdrops]

Thanks for the long reply Sarah yes it does make some sense.

Maybe I need to think about trying to seriously achieve it through meditation rather than sleeping as I feel possibly there may be more chance of obtaining a more concious and aware AP experience.

[Old Dood]

The Dream Journal makes sense.
However for me to fumble around to find my glasses then pick up a pen & paper to write down something will not work.
I will forget everything by then...And of course I will have to pee by then too. hehe!

I need to purchase a simple hand held recorder....