Ap Friends,
Here's a question and something to debate over. Imagine if we had world peace. What would it be like? Do you think God would pull the plug on our civilization/ the world and re-start over again?
Maybe this is something that God wants us as humans to figure out and when we do get to the level or world peace. it could possibly be the end?
I am thinking through astral projection - maybe this is a way for people to understand about them-shelves and others around.
Tvos
I have this feeling that world peace might me not real.
The world is full of oppossites, ying yang type behaviour.
Can good really exist without evil? It seems there on purpose to balance out evil.
Perhaps this explain why in 2005, the world is full of misery.
If religions can't live in peace, and different mind-sets always clash, since the dawn of time, surely, good can't exist without evil.
but even forums are microcosms of conflict.
If enlightened souls here can't agree over the mystic/occult (NEW) vs the Phasing more science approach, what hope can we hold over more deeper social situations?
Not being negative or un-optimistic, just an observation, naturally I'm all for world peace!
I do agree with you that astral projection and understanding of it by humanity holds the key.
Why should we all agree? That would make a dull world.
Here is an educated Christian standpoint. FYI, I'm an educated Christian.
Now, would God pull the plug if everyone became nice to eachother? Well, that kinda kills the idea that God has been striving for world peace... Nonetheless somewhere in Revelations it promises the world 1000 years of peace after the Devil is locked away.
Third, the point of 'evilness' is simply because it gives people freedom of choice. Faithfulness is way cooler when someone has the free choice to choose against it, and doesn't. So it's not that we need evil people to make the world go round, it's that we need the choice to be evil so we can choose not to do it.
If you ask me as a Christian, I have a feeling that phasing will never go mainstream. It would bring peace to the world when we still have a ton of fire and lighting to experience first par the Bible. As a Spiritualist I'd hope that it does for everyone's sake.
Quotewe need the choice to be evil so we can choose not to do it
Does that make anyone else laugh?
Yet, it so succinctly drives home the juvenile axiom that evil was created so that God could be Good.
If anything, I imagine that these constructs will be transcended.
I hope for maturation, not peace.
Stevo,
I am sorry that I cannot follow your logic, because it doesn't work well for me.
Earlier in my life, I was flustered and commited many sins as you would put it. I never asked for forgiveness, but continued to do such actions because I thought they were evil. I had a thirst for doing them because I knew they were wrong, and I felt bad that I was doing them. Yes, I was a teenager, but that is meaningless now.
After a while, I realized my flaw. I had considered such actions evil. Now that I don't think these actions are bad, I have no desire to do them at all. The key was not to have a set of 'morals' so much as to just live and not worry about sin as much as Christian ethics leads me to. I consider this to be the process of transcending good and evil.
Call me heathen or whatever, but I feel much better now about who I am as a person as soon as I got rid of all the dogma in my life. I've forgiven myself for going down that path, and I actually think I may complete my life goal one day, whereas then I was still mucking around in a mess of anxiety and temptation.
Yay for free will to just not give a crap anymore. Sin has no value, because sin doesn't exist.
Ybom,
Remember, I said CHRISTIAN point of view. I can relate to what you say, to some sense.
In the Christian values, sin exists. It can be wrapped up in to doing things which do not benifit to the growth and happiness of others or yourself. Makes sense. It's a bit of old school yard reasoning: 'Hurt someone and his bigger brother kicks your butt.'
On my own oppinions though, sin, in its literal terms, is a bit overdone. Although I still believe in some of its values because when you benifit the greater, you benifit yourself.
Anyways, what this all wraps out to is that from Christianity, sin must exist so that man may have a full range of choices. How can you choose to do good unless you could choose to do evil. Otherwise you have to choose good because there is nothing else. From my standpoint, 'sin' is more selfishness. How could you do something bad if who you are affecting doesn't care? So, if no-one cared, you could do whatever you wanted and never sin. So in a way, sin = selfishness in that order.
"If someone wasn't at least a little selfish, everyone would take advantage of them and they would have nothing" You say. Well, look at it from this point. A man loses everything because he is more than glad to give it all away. He has made those who took it happy, and he still has his happiness. We all know life is more than what possessions you have. We all also know that a man strong in his will can change the world. A man who doesn't mind losing everything is obviously strong in will. That is more important than what anyone can do to you. If he keeps it from them, they are angry. Then they may push, and make life worse. For example, ever tried to not pay taxes?
So to finish for you, to say there is no sin because sin was made by Religion for everyone else is one step behind. We all have a fixed idea on the definition of sin that is very elementary. Mainly, sin is whatever is against the Church. You must take one step more and truly ask what defines sin before you can say it does not exist.
World Peace is a term used by dreamers, to be truthful, humans love to hate, almost every great conflict that has ever occurred has been due to hate, hell, were in the middle of one right now. Humans are the race that loves to hate, that needs to hate, no matter how hard you try you can never eradicate hate. But its not just hate, no, human emotion is a yin-yang volatile with the potential to change at any second, we also cannot be a total evil, but the majority of us, just love to hate each other, be it for race, religion or just for the pleasure of doing so. Some of us sent to war kill because they are ordered to, some because they enjoy violence, yet others still justify it as "bringing resolution to the matter", but in the end, all we are doing is killing ourselves, since the beginning of history, wars have been fought, there was no historic "grace to the, just bodies on the battlefield, dying or already dead, why? Because their lord ordered them to. Global warming is melting the icecaps, if we are not careful we could experience snowball earth, remember the movie day after tomorrow? It was found to be scientifically sound, just over a larger time frame.
TuperYabba
I agree and disagree. firstly, I don't really hate anybody, and I don't want to kill. I think you're being a bit toughon the human race! Sure there are scummies who enjoy violence and hurting others but there are a lot of people who don't get the same kick. But I know what you mean, hatred, selfishness, greed etc have driven the human race to where it is right now. But at the same time so has compassion, selflessness and the sense of what is right. That's why we have hospitals, schools, a police force and a welfare state. By and large, most people are essentially decent, with a lump of selfishness and greed thrown in, but basically not that bad. I think the world is driven by all of these motives, not just hatred.
But your comments about global warming are true also. I firmly believe we will have trouble surviving more than another 100 years. There are so many threats - global warming, depleting oil reserves, disappearing water table, depleting rainforests, supervolcanos (Yellowstone Park), impact by meteorites, massive global ecological changes caused by climate change, eg changes in the Gulf Stream (erm read "hurricanes"), rise in sea levels (major landmasses will be submerged), unbearable temperature changes etc. Finally what about the nuclear war we will have with the Middle East once oil supplies disappear (which they absolutely WILL)?
I hope we find solutions to these problems, but a sub-normal IQ, war-mongering US president hell-bent on burning oil and ignoring all ecological problems doesn't help!
Okay so hate was too specific, and I was too negative. Just as humans cannot exist without their evil sides, they cannot exist without the good as well. I agree about the president. That police force thing isn't really true with all of the police brutality though.
Quote from: StevoYou must take one step more and truly ask what defines sin before you can say it does not exist.
Does
god or
man define "sin"? Neither, since individuals seem to.
Let us go with a wikipedia referenced definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin).
Quote from: wikipedia:SinSin has been a term most usually used in a religious context, and today describes any lack of conformity to the will of God; especially, any willful disregard for the norms revealed by God is a sin. The word is from the old English synn, presumed to be from Germanic *sun(d)jō[1] (lit: "it is true"). It is recorded in use as early as the 9th century. The most common formal definition is an infraction against religious or moral law. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered faulty, shameful, harmful to oneself or to others, or which alienates self from others and especially from God, can be called a sin. Through sin, guilt is incurred; and according to guilt, punishment is deserved. Compare Impiety and Crime. Atonement is a concept of justice and mercy, and "payment" for one's sins. An example is found in traditions of animal sacrifice (as found in early Judaism, for example). Atonement for one's sins thought through the agency of a Messiah became the central idea of Christian theology. Repentance describes the acknowledgement of sin as well as the feelings, thoughts, and actions which accompany efforts to alleviate the effects of having sinned.
My problem is that the concepts of "religious law" and "moral law" have no wiki links. Maybe I should create them?
No that's quite allright. There's been enough religious laws created already, thanks.
:)
Quote from: James SNo that's quite allright. There's been enough religious laws created already, thanks.
:)
Drat. 2 wiki posts away from ruling the world. Dang you James!
but this is what i'm saying.. maybe God is letting 'us' down here try to figure out and how to get to world peace. i know it won't be in our life time, maybe it will be after WW3?
tvos
Actually I like the sound of your statement, Tvos. God won't force anything apon us, so we will have to figure it out. Goes with the free will thing.
Stevo,
Thanks - at least someone has agreed with me on this forum..:) j/k
You think about it, God has said back in the bible that our lives will be harder, we will have to work, make our own choices, women will have pains giving child birth and that the solution will not present itself to us.
This leads me to believe that all that is good we've to figure our ways to that goal as '1' and not separate ourselves between race, language, god or creed. I feel that once we accomplish this then Gods plan will change and turn.
Tvos
Tvos
My simple take on it, in an attempt to make any sense out of this absurd physical existence we find ourselves in, is that it's a kind of learning zone. This is the traditional viewpoint (I think). I think Monroe and others suggest that in all of the realms of existence the physical world and especially this Earth is just a tiny part of all creation. There are an infinite number of life forms who never experience physical existence, and only a small number of these that actually come down for the "earth trip". So there will probably be an endless supply of individuals who can benefit from this earth trip.
But the whole point of the "earth trip" may be to experience the negative emotions that are the direct result of its "blinkering effect". We experience selfishness because we don't realise that in actual fact we are all connected, and we are all really part of the same whole. If I hurt someone, then I hurt another aspect of myself. But because our physical bodies pull down the shutters and disconnect us from everyone else, we are able to experience these negative emotions, which would be preposterous if we were aware of our true connectedness. Earth existence places us all into little honeycombe cells, in which we live selfish lives.
Perhaps that's the point of it all? Eventually, the collective human consciousness might rise well above this, and there might be world peace. That would be a fantastic triumph of humanity over selfishness, a true pinnacle of achievement for collective humanity, but if this ever happens, then perhaps the whole reason for coming down here will be lost?
catmeow
Until everyone can see the greater reality of the universe, I don't know how world peace can happen. As long as someone believes that death and suffering exist, they do. Can all mouths really be fed? Or a better question: Can the materialistic give up their "things"? Personnaly, I see the reality of the person striving for these things more realistic (and maybe better) than actual world peace. It's the "Reaching Towards" that matters now.
World Peace is an Ideal - something to constantly strive for, yet unatainable.
Quote from: StookieUntil everyone can see the greater reality of the universe, I don't know how world peace can happen. As long as someone believes that death and suffering exist, they do. Can all mouths really be fed? Or a better question: Can the materialistic give up their "things"? Personnaly, I see the reality of the person striving for these things more realistic (and maybe better) than actual world peace. It's the "Reaching Towards" that matters now.
World Peace is an Ideal - something to constantly strive for, yet unatainable.
You're looking at this the same way as everyone else. I believe if I put more willpower into the concept of world peace than everyone else in the world puts into war and suffering, then world peace will happen. However, most people believe the concept is a silly pipe dream for the world. Define world peace first and then start striving towards it instead of the other way around.
QuoteI believe if I put more willpower into the concept of world peace than everyone else in the world puts into war and suffering, then world peace will happen.
How can that be world peace, if people are still putting willpower into war and suffering? Even if you outweigh the rest of the world in your "willing", their "willing" of war and suffering still exists. You can't stop their feelings through your willing.
I think my point being is that world peace has so much more to do with the hearts of men and women than just the stopping of war and suffering.
so when do we stop the war, selfishness, negativity is when there's no more bombs to drop...
tvos
I've always thought that the best way to change the world is to lead by example. Instead of trying to get everyone else to be a certain way, be that ideal yourself. If you're truly living it, it will rub off on the people around you.
Stookie,
I do agree but the people need to start making this change happen as well.
Tvos
I'm butting in, probably inappropriately, but I'm quoting Ghandi:
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
I read it first on the Astral Pulse (thank you whoever quoted it). It's one of those quotes that everyones probably heard about ages ago. Selski has always been slow off the mark and about 20 years behind, so please forgive me for getting excited about an "old" saying...
It opened my eyes, so to speak, and made me think seriously. I guess that's what Stookie is saying, in a manner of speaking.
Sarah
very true.... rather then waiting for others to change - one must look at themselves and change...
it goes without saying - once you start something and people can see the results, then they will follow...
tvos
Approaching from a different direction. One cannot be peaceful without being suffered first. Can peace be defined without understanding of the dark side? Sort of like the sweet isn't as sweet without the sour thing.
THis is God, let's remember that World peace is only the beginning.
World peace is way beyond evil in all.
I AM SATAN> :twisted:
"One cannot be peaceful without being suffered first."
That reminds me of a man named Jesus... according to some, he "suffered" so we don't have to.
"Can peace be defined without understanding of the dark side?"
I guess that's why he decended into hell first.
I'm not trying to preach Christianity to anyone. It's just what popped into my mind when I read it.
Quote from: Stookie"One cannot be peaceful without being suffered first."
That reminds me of a man named Jesus... according to some, he "suffered" so we don't have to.
"Can peace be defined without understanding of the dark side?"
I guess that's why he decended into hell first.
I'm not trying to preach Christianity to anyone. It's just what popped into my mind when I read it.
No, I emotionally tagged my post with Jesus, so yes you might have picked up on it. If so, that's amazing! However it was more of a warning to avoid the concept of Jesus doing it for us. I understand that that is one translation of what the Bible means, but I believe there is more to it than that, since Jesus spoke of following in his footsteps. If you want to discuss Jesus, then by all means let's, but...I'd prefer not to at this point.
Who here knows anyone who could use a bit more of an open mind? Alternatively, how about people who need to be a bit more closed minded? I think there are more people who could be a bit more open about changes than people who could be a bit more closed about them, but this is just hypothesizing. What do you think?
QuoteWho here knows anyone who could use a bit more of an open mind? Alternatively, how about people who need to be a bit more closed minded?
So very true. In the search for truth, it's easy to get wrapped around concepts that don't apply. Look at all the New Age books out there. Someone a bit too open-minded could really get pulled into some crap. And a closed minded person would be limited on what they learn. It's hard to find a balance in life. I guess that why times of peace are interrupted by times of war.
Well, I got here kind of late but anywho...here we go!
Someone mentioned at the beginning that would peace would be dull because we would all be the same. I thought that same way several years ago, but something happened...I think it was when I really started to be a more compassionate individual and really started hoping for peace that I realized peace would be far from boring. Imagine peace on a small scale; a night where none of your friends fight, isn't that great? We would all retain our individuality, it's just everyone would be good to each other.
IMO, sin can be translated into karma, or atleast that's roughly how I think of sin as. When I think of sin I think it as an act that gets punishes for, which seems like a test, of sorts, administered by God. When I think of karma, it seems to fit better with what goes on here on earth - learning.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when I am really nice and compassionate to people, I notice a *huge* difference in how other peolpe treat me, even if I'm not being overly nice. Especially vice versa, if I treat people poorly, I notice an ever bigger difference in how I'm treated by other people.
For the person that mentioned people striving for peace are dreamers, I feel the same way as the late John Lennon about that. From "Imagine" by John Lennon:
QuoteYou may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.
I like to read this as "Each person walks their own path but everyone's goal is the same. When we all have gone through the same things, we'll meet back home."
The idea that one must know evil before seeing the good reminds me of another quote, actually, by a famous man named Frederick Nietzche and goes something along the lines of "If a trees branches reach to heaven, it's roots surely reach to hell." Which, I think, Illustrates this pretty well.
This is where IMHO, reincarnation comes in. I have not had a violent past, but I am striving for a peaceful world; where did I learn it? I'm sure many of us have gone through lives of both extremes, and probably everything inbetween.
all right that's enough for now
brad
QuoteI don't know about the rest of you, but when I am really nice and compassionate to people, I notice a *huge* difference in how other peolpe treat me, even if I'm not being overly nice. Especially vice versa, if I treat people poorly, I notice an ever bigger difference in how I'm treated by other people.
My job doesn't really entail that I deal with customers, but sometimes I have too. Before when I had to deal with one, my attitude would immediately turn too "oh God, here we go...". I would be nice to the people, but it would all be very business, no pleasure.
But since I've been practicing AP, my attitude towards people have changed, and the dealings with customers have improved greatly. I still treat them pretty much the same way, but my inward attitude has changed, and I notice this through the way they interact with me. I feel as though sometimes I leave an impression on them, and maybe even changed their day. Sometimes they change mine. Maybe by saying something nice, or even a smile.
I think that's one step towards peace.
Stookie,
I know what you are talking about with ap and how it can help with situations like you said. This can help at work, through friends, family, customers, everyday occurrences. Also, mix in a little Dale Carnegie and you will go far...
Tvos