Astral Projection & The Bible...

[David Warner]

Ap Friends,

Next week I will be meeting with a priest who married my wife and I. The priest and I will be getting together to discuss lucid dreams/astral projection and the bible.

So far I've asked the priest if he felt that dreams were a legitimate christian tool of communication and he answered "Yes". He also, explained that he had on occasion experiencing communication with God through dreams. He also took the time to point out that the bible references dreams/trance all through out.

Has anyone here taken the time to interview and research this? I do want to handle this with kid gloves and not persuade him to thinking that OOBE is negative or occult. But anyone have suggestions or questions that I can ask (besides the norm).

Thank You,

Tvos

[James S]

I have seen writings by christians and non-christians alike who have believed that John was in an OBE state when he experienced what was written down in the book of Revelation.

Personally I don't know what to think about this, but it's an interesting idea.

[David Warner]

do you know the chapter, scripture, passage on this?

it will be a interesting interview - i am planning on recording this and then adding it to my ftp site.

tvos

[James S]

It's pretty much the whole book isn't it?
It's all the "visions" John got that go to make up Revelations.

[David Warner]

i don't know - i never read the bible from begin to end...  

tvos

[bvp663]

Every discussion I've ever had concerning OBEs and whatnot with christians is immediately discredited by the verse "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  Nobody come to Him but through me."  Every single christian I've discussed this with dishes it out.  My thoughts on it are this:

Jesus is God, and said he was the only way to God.  But we're all part of God, and I've found this belief to be true across all of the major religions:

Christianity: "The kingdom of heaven is within you"

Islam: "Those who know themselves know their God"

Buddhism: "Look within, thou art Buddha"

"On that day, you will know that I am in my Father, and  you in me, and I in you"  -- John 14:20"



Also you have to keep in mind that everything written in the Bible was written by people thousands of years ago and the messages given were most likely aimed towards the people of that age (not to say that they don't still apply today).  Also, the original message has gone through so many dogmatic filters and translation that I think good part of the true message has been lost, as many of the original documents do not exist.



I think what Jesus was saying is not that HE is the only way to God, but rather his example and model (the way, the truth and the life) is the way to God and spiritual progression.

[alex_21]

I think this might relate to Astral Projection it in Ecclesiastes 12 verses 5-7 "5 they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along and desire fails; because man goes to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets; 6 before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, 7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

[Stookie]

I think what Jesus was saying is not that HE is the only way to God, but rather his example and model (the way, the truth and the life) is the way to God and spiritual progression.

When you put it like that, you wonder what's so hard to understand about Jesus.

TVOS - It sounds like you're really preparing for this. I know that when it comes to most Christians, it all boils down to your relationship with Christ, no matter what your experiences are. The fact that your speaking with a priest and someone who has had dream communications might make him more open minded.

A good way to start is maybe talking about how God can communicate through dreams, and move on to experiences that have nothing to do with God or Jesus. Maybe ask him his opinion on the validity of these experiences, or what he would do and validate if he could have these experiences himself.

My biggest fear of having OBE discussions with Christians are:
1. Them thinking I'm making it all up.
2. They believe me, but think it was just a dream I'm taking too seriously.
3. Them thinking that it's just plain un-christian to attempt these things.

I don't know about convincing a Christian of another reality that exists outside of the physical world, and it isn't heaven, hell, or purgatory.

My Mom told me when I was young that meditation is wrong because it involves clearing your mind, which means you're also clearing your mind of Christ. (That's why I don't discuss these things with her). Hopefully, as a priest he'll be more open minded than that.

Good luck. It all sounds very interesting.

[Heather B.]

Oh, I can't wait to hear about the interview!

Actually, I was reading a book--I think it was by William Buhlman--where he gives passages in the Bible that could be referring to OBE.  For example, some of the prophets, as well as John of Revelations, describe hearing thunder, or wind, or great trumpets, and feeling the earth shake at the beginnings of their visions/prophecies.  Buhlman suggested that this might have been the astral noises and vibrations that occur at the beginning of an OBE.  I'll have to try to find the book and double-check it.  I think he gives chapters and verses, so I'll also double-check my Bible.

Personally, I think it's very probable that all visions, hearing God, and other profound religious experiences could be linked with AP.  And I also think BVP hit the nail on the head, about what Jesus and all those other great religious leaders taught about each of us finding God within.

Unfortunately, so many Christians take the Bible at face value, without delving into the deep spiritual meanings.  But in my experience, priests know their scripture better than most.  So I think that basing your discussion on the Bible will be very effective, and most likely very educational!

I'll try to contribute some verses that might be helpful!

[greatoutdoors]

Tvos,

As usual, you come up with very interesting posts!

As to reading the Bible, I would recommend you read just the New Testament. or at least read Revelations -- very interesting even if impossible to decipher!  

I know a lot of people go the the Old Testament to show instances of people talking to God, visions, etc. But the New Testament is also full of anecdotes about exactly the same thing.

If memory serves though, nearly all of them could be seen as dream visions or, at most, lucid dreams. I guess Revelations would have the most valid example because I seem to recall it says that John was being taken from one scene to another. That would seem to be evidence that his experiences were "astral."

By the way, I agree totally with the priest when he says you can receive communications in your dreams. A lot of them are "fluff," but some are definitely much more than that. The trick is figuring out the difference!  

[greatoutdoors]

Okay, one more thing:

Bvp663, you make a very good point! The over-riding message to most religions is very similar, in spite of human efforts to split it up!

Also to Stookie: you said your mom was against meditation because clearing your mind removed Christ. Many Bible passages instruct folks to "seek the still small places" where they can experience God. In many places it encourages people to go apart and "be still," so as to hear God. I think your mom is missing an opportunity to experience some wonderful things!

Someone else likely knows "chapter and verse" on some of these -- come on in and share, please!

[thankful]

Revelations (the last book in the Bible) Chapter one, verse 10 says "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day..."  

So if you are in the spirit it's because you are out of the body.

In II Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul talks about knowing a man being taken up to the third heaven (meaning there is more than one heaven/dimension) and he didn't know if he was in the body or out of the body.

This is a start.

Edit: I changed it to II Corinthians instead of I Corinthians.  My error.

[FrostyRose]

In Ezekiel :12 it is stated: "Then the spirit lifted me up and I heard behind me the noise of the Lord rumbling as the glory of the Lord rose from its place"

In the New Testament Jesus states in John 3:3: "You must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven"

[David Warner]

Almost Mrs. Murphy, Greatoutdoors, Stookie and the rest!!

Thank You for the information on this - I definitely hope to open up with education/understanding that will derive from this interview. I know there will be boundaries that I will have to be careful and feel out where the discussion leads.

I've started compiling notes, jotting down ideas, biblical passages and personal experiences with the OOBE state. In one of my AP experiences
I was given a gift to see the birth of Christ
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19859&highlight=birth+christ  and I think this would be a great opportunity to discuss this with the priest as positive and linking to astral projection. I still have a lot to organize my thoughts and ideas. Still am a little nervous about the interview.

Stookie, you mentioned that your biggest fear of having obe discussion was that you were making it up, or it was a dream and unchristian. I think with the posts that were added from the other great members here definitely have shed light on validation and how it relates to the bible.

People will have their own thoughts, beliefs and dogmatic ideas of how one should conform to the church and not go outside of the bible. But when all these passages talk about dreams, trance, being in spirit, or the silver cord is snapped - how is it that we are practicing anything different outside of the bible? - that's what gets me and how people can twist meaning.

Keep it coming and I will definitely posts the mp3 interview on-line hopefully by the following upcoming weekend...

Thank You for all your help and support!

Tvos

[lkjewr]

I'm also familiar with the verse in Revelations where John says he was 'in the spirit', which sounds like OBE to me.

Thank you for your help and sharing Tvos!

[Stookie]

Also to Stookie: you said your mom was against meditation because clearing your mind removed Christ. Many Bible passages instruct folks to "seek the still small places" where they can experience God. In many places it encourages people to go apart and "be still," so as to hear God. I think your mom is missing an opportunity to experience some wonderful things!

Stookie, you mentioned that your biggest fear of having obe discussion was that you were making it up, or it was a dream and unchristian. I think with the posts that were added from the other great members here definitely have shed light on validation and how it relates to the bible.

People will have their own thoughts, beliefs and dogmatic ideas of how one should conform to the church and not go outside of the bible. But when all these passages talk about dreams, trance, being in spirit, or the silver cord is snapped - how is it that we are practicing anything different outside of the bible? - that's what gets me and how people can twist meaning.

I agree with everything said here. My mom has an unshakable faith in Jesus. This faith has gotten her through every situation in life. And it's not something she found at some point - it's always been there. I honestly believe that there is nothing I could say to ever make her question the reality she's known her whole life. I grew up in a Lutheran church where Faith and Grace were the 2 most important things taught, and they say you don't need anything else - you're already saved.

My point is that when you have a Christian like my mom, they have no reason to believe these things, and many will want nothing to do with them. Their interpretations of the Bible are different and ingrained. There are people that believe all of creation in Genesis is 100% literal, and you can't tell them different.

Here's a couple passages they can throw back:
Leviticus 19:26 - (the Lord to Moses) "...Do not practice divination or sorcery."
Leviticus 19:31 - "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord."
Leviticus 20:27 - "A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads."
Deuteronomy 18:10 - "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

I'm just playing "devil's advocate" here (for real this time   ). Coming from a hardcore Christian family, I can see where it's difficult to get a Christian to understand where your coming from. It's easy for ingrained dogma to not let a person even open their mind to these things for a second. At the same time, I wouldn't want to change my Mom. Christ really has given her strength and confidence and hope. He's 100% real to her, and all she needs to get through anything.

I'm not trying to discourage you at all. It's just a side of Christianity that's still somewhat ingrained in me. I think what your doing is awesome, and wish I had the guts to converse with my old pastor like this. I'm exited to see your results.

Here's an eerie passage on dreams and visions: Acts 2:17-18  - "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

In I Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul talks about knowing a man being taken up to the third heaven (meaning there is more than one heaven/dimension) and he didn't know if he was in the body or out of the body.

I didn't see anything about that there, but I Corinthians 12 does talk about spiritual gifts. These are what the Pentecostals believe in. In their church, someone will stand up and speak in tongues, and then another person will stand up and translate, neither knowing how it happened. There is the gift of wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in tongues, and interpretation of tongues. It says everyone has at least one of these gifts.

[thankful]

CORRECTION

I apologize the scripture about being in the third heaven was in II Corinthians vs. 2-4 not in I Corinthians (that's the second book of Corinthians not the first).  Sorry about the misquotation.

[David Warner]

Stookie,

I appreciate the information you have supplied. My biggest question is this - if God speaks to us through dreams, trance, meditation in which is a legitimate christian tool, then why would the bible contradict itself  by Leviticus 19:26 - (the Lord to Moses) "...Do not practice divination or sorcery." Leviticus 19:31 - "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord."  and the other 90 some passages about dreams, phropecies?  - Its like the two are always confusing and pulling on one another.

Another thing that I just thought of is that from the verse "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists". Who is Christ, we seek his spirit, love, guidance. For the clairvoyants that help heal, foretell where children have been kidnapped, or to prevent a terrible event like a murder happening. I don't know, but correct me if I am wrong - this would sound like a gift from God, that someone is out there helping our world. If it was the devil, than that person would conflict evil and personal gain.  Where does the line draw down the middle between the passages in the bible vs. our studies in AP to help the world to be a better place.

Tvos


Tvos

[Stookie]

...then why would the bible contradict itself...

That's the nature of the Bible and interpreting it. And I suppose that's why I left Christianity. It just doesn't have the answers I'm looking for, and can barely explain what I've found.

Another thing occurred to me about those passages - The Lord speaking to Moses would have to be a clairvoyant communication. It's a contradiction in itself.

[Marlinya]

On the Bible contradicting itself:

It's like the restriction on eating "unclean" things in the Old Testament, which then gets contradicted when Paul has the dream where God offers him all sorts of non--kosher things to eat in the New Testament and says that it's ok now.

[David Warner]

Marlinya,

Do you know the passages of this? Boy, I tell ya when I present this information to my priest, he'll deffinitely flip..:) But it will be okay because it will be good to hear his view on this.


Tvos

[Blackstream]

and he beheld the sky opened up, and a certain object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. And a voice came to him, "Arise, Peter, kill and eat!" But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean." And again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." (Acts 10:11-15)

Basically, a lot of people believe that the rules in the old testament are what are considered "hedge laws".  In other words, they don't apply any more.  Things like stoning your kids for stealing and stuff.

Btw, the above verse also appears to be an obe/dream :p

[David Warner]

Ap Friends,

This was given to me by my friend Mendel that deserves recognition and credit for finding.  This is a article definitely worth reading and passing on to others. Its about time that someone steps up and endorses this and recognize that its okay to communicate with god,Christ, family that has passed on into the next.

I did a little searching around the internet and wanted a time-date stamp on this authenticity article. Anyone can help out that would be great.


This is the link:
http://www.after-death.com/articles/vatican.htm

Dialogue with the dead is feasible,
Vatican spokesman says
By John Hooper
London Observer Service

ROME – One of the most authoritative spokesmen of the Roman Catholic Church has raised eyebrows among the faithful by declaring that the Church believes in the feasibility of communication with the dead.

The Rev. Gino Concetti, chief theological commentator for the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, denied he was signaling any change in approach. But he agreed that his remarks might come as a jolt to many believers.

He said the Church remained opposed to the raising of spirits, but added: "Communication is possible between those who live on this earth and those who live in a state of eternal repose, in heaven or purgatory. It may even be that God lets our loved ones send us messages to guide us at certain moments in our life."

His comments were first made in support of an American theologian, the Rev. John Neuhaus. Neuhaus had described how a friend had seen a ghost. He said there were various explanations, but "the important thing is not to deny such things a priority."

Concetti said the key to the Church's attitude was the Roman Catholic belief in a "Communion of Saints," which included Christians on earth as well as those in the after-life. "Where there is communion, there is communication," he said.

Concetti suggested dead relatives could be responsible for prompting impulses and triggering inspiration - and even for "sensory manifestations," such as appearances in dreams.

Concetti said the new Catholic catechism specifically endorsed the view that the dead could intercede on earth and quotes the dying St. Dominic telling his brothers: "Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life."

This article was published by the London Observer Service and was written by John Hooper.

Tvos

[Marlinya]

the voice of silence:

Here is a page with a discussion on the whole food issue, since Blackstream has kindly provided you with the verse:
http://www.pointsoftruth.com/foodlaw.html

*edit* I posted this before reading the whole thing! This author actually concludes that the New Testament does not actually contradict the Old in this respect, because the vision could refer to other things. But it continues that, although eating "unclean" foods is better for your diet, unclean foods won't keep you out of Heaven! There are tons of OT and NT  verse references, though, it was interesting reading!

Good luck with your meeting! My discussions with my dad about my different religious views were met with a very polite, "But that's not true Christianity," (I've got the wrong beliefs about Jesus), and my mom, while very devout, simply said she didn't know about other religious beliefs, because she didn't think the Bible said definitively whether or not they were wrong. No room for extreme discussions there, I suppose...after that, I gave up on showing anyone my beliefs unless they ask specifically.

[Heather B.]

Hi TVOS and all,

DOH!  I forgot to look up those passages!  :poh:  These last few days haven't been some of my brightest. *sigh*  But I'll try to give you something tonight if it's not too late...

I can tell you that the Ezekiel passage FrostyRose gave was one of them though.  About the noise of the Lord rumbling.