BBC documentary about NDE - anyone see it?

[Lysear]

damn I missed it, I was at work

[Adrian]

Greetings Gandalf,

I don't usually watch any TV, but my eldest son, who is 12 years, and who is immensly interested in these issues, bought it to my attention.

I saw the end of the program where the businessman who was a complete materialist, is now living a frugal life giving to humanity as a result of his NDE.

There was also a woman who had been totally blind from birth, who, from what I could gather, suffered a car accident and was clinically dead for a time. During that time she had an NDE and saw everything including her own body - which she had never seen before - and beings of light in the Astral.

The scientist at the end of the program seemed in no doubt that the mind is indeed separate from the physical brain, and that one day this could revolutionise the way people viewed things.

I can only hope that the organisations of creed and dogma do not attempt to repress these facts to suit their own control of their congregations and followers.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[micron]

Gandalf!

You didnt by chance record it did you? Im doing my research paper in philosophy on that exact topic. If consciousness exists after death (which of course im arguing it does) That would be an excellent source! Strangely enough the reason im writing this now is because i just woke up from a dream in which i got shot and was in the process of what i thought was dying [|)]. Ive been having a lot of death dreams lately...anyway just thought id ask...time to go back to sleep []

[Gandalf]

Sorry Micron, I didnt recrord it, but it might be worth asking at your department as often they tape tv programs that may be relevant to their subject, they do at my university at least.

About your death dreams - I used to get them now and again, I find it usually relates to change, that I am worried about change in some way. For example when I first started university I got a few of these dreams, indicating my concern and worries about sudden change. Of course, as it turned out the change was for the best, but I find that such concerns get manifested in my dreams by themes of death which is a metaphor for change and transformation.
In my one I looked inside a coffin and saw myself, in another I was gunned down!
I used to worry that these were premonitions that I was going to die but then I realised the highly symbolic nature of dreams!

Douglas

[Leyla]

Fascinating! Are there any more details of the program you could tell us about? I would love to have seen it myself.

[quant]

What was the exact date of the showing and the name of the programme please?

[Gandalf]

The program was called 'The day I died'.
I'll try and find the exact air date and let you know!

Douglas

[quant]

Any more luck on finding out where we can get this anyone?

[Gandalf]

Sorry, I can't find any more details about it. maybe I should just type in the title into a search site?

Douglas

[Gandalf]

I found this reference on a web site:


'In a BBC TV documentary of 5th February 2003: "The Day I Died", more patients related similar experiences
Pim van Lommel concludes: "NDE pushes the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relationship."

I don't know how you'll go about tracking the program down however, unless someone reads this who happened to tape it.

Regards,
Douglas

[stephen~]

Further to the above comments. I saw this program too, and one of Susan Blackmore's comments mentioned above about the OBE being an illusion caused by firing neurons when the brain is shutting down. I saw her some years ago on TV, she is one of the few scientific types to actually have an astral projection, and yes she believes it is all illusion.

But a neuroscientist in the program said that neural activity ceases after 8 seconds after clinical death - I don't know if that is always the case. So the argument in the documentry was whether the OBE happens before the neural activity ceases or not.

They introduced an american woman who had an operation to remove an anuerism from her brain. Her brain was stopped for an hour - no neural activity at all. Yet she saw during this time the tools used for the operation. They were specialist tools that she never saw - her eyes were taped shut, and she was aneathetised before the tools were taken out of their boxes which themselves were hidden under sheets.

The fact she could describe these tools, and that her brain was inactive for an hour but she saw the whole operation, would suggest that OBEs are not caused by the dying moments of the brain, but are real experiences.

[Hephaestus]

quote:Originally posted by stephen~

Further to the above comments. I saw this program too, and one of Susan Blackmore's comments mentioned above about the OBE being an illusion caused by firing neurons when the brain is shutting down. I saw her some years ago on TV, she is one of the few scientific types to actually have an astral projection, and yes she believes it is all illusion.

But a neuroscientist in the program said that neural activity ceases after 8 seconds after clinical death - I don't know if that is always the case. So the argument in the documentry was whether the OBE happens before the neural activity ceases or not.

They introduced an american woman who had an operation to remove an anuerism from her brain. Her brain was stopped for an hour - no neural activity at all. Yet she saw during this time the tools used for the operation. They were specialist tools that she never saw - her eyes were taped shut, and she was aneathetised before the tools were taken out of their boxes which themselves were hidden under sheets.

The fact she could describe these tools, and that her brain was inactive for an hour but she saw the whole operation, would suggest that OBEs are not caused by the dying moments of the brain, but are real experiences.

1) not possible, theres no technology available to seize brain function other than killing someone.
2) death would occur straight away if even a large percentage of the brain siezed to function.
3) if the brain seizes to function for longer than 5 minutes then if the person is revived they will have brain damage.

[stephen~]

1) not possible, theres no technology available to seize brain function other than killing someone.

Not true, Dr Robert A. Solomon performed a new procedure called Hypothermic Cardiac Arrest, where the patient is essentially put to death. The body temperature is lowered to 60 degrees, heartbeat and breathing are stopped, brainwaves flattened and blood drained from the head. The procedure is called 'Standstill' for short. In the case of Pam Reynolds (the subject in the documentry) she was clinically dead for one hour using this technique.


2) death would occur straight away if even a large percentage of the brain siezed to function.

Death did occur straight away, but she is still here, and not brain damaged.


3) if the brain seizes to function for longer than 5 minutes then if the person is revived they will have brain damage.

This is a myth, neurons cease to function, but they do not quickly reach  a state where they cannot recover:

From: sbharris@ix.netcom.com(Steven B. Harris)
Newsgroups: sci.med,sci.life-extension,sci.cryonics
Subject: When DO Neurons Die Without Oxygen?  Not When You Thought.
Date: 19 Feb 1998 04:54:24 GMT

   For a long time there has been the idea that neurons "die" in 4 to
6 minutes without oxygen.  Just what exactly "death" means on a cell
level, however, has been a bit of a sticky thing to define.  It's not
as though a little ghost, shaped like a semi-formed neuron but with
blank holes for eyes, comes out of each cell at the moment it crumps.

   So what does happen?  The cells of the brain, even the neurons,
look much the same for some hours after death.  But how are they
functionally?  We now know that resuscitation can be acomplished as
long as 20 minutes after cardiac arrest, even at normal temperatures.
But what are the ultimate limits?

  A short research letter published just this week in Lancet gives
some clues.  Some of the letter follows:


LANCET 351, Feb 14, 1998    pp. 499-500

Recovery of axonal transport in "dead neurons"
Jipei Dei, et al.

It is generally believed that a neuron is highly sensitive to hypoxia
or glucose deprivation and that cerebral ischaemia of more than several
minutes results in irrevelersible brain neuron damage.  This view has
been challenged [1], and we now present evidence for survival of human
brain neurons up to 8 hours after death such that they still have the
potential for recover their functions of energy metabolism and axonal
transport.

The evidence was obtained from our study of more than 30 postmortem
human brains.  Postmortem delay is usually 3-6 hours.  Brain tissues,
ranging from a slice of 400 um to a block of 3 x 2 x 2 cm, from
different areas (cortex, hypothalamus, and brainstem) were preincubated
in modified artificial cerebrospinal fluid at 0-4 C. for 2-3 hours.
[Two tracers were added which can be taken up and transported only
along living neurons.  After incubation, tissues are fixed, cut, and
viewed. Transport of tracer was seen only in the presense of oxygen and
glucose, demonstrating active process]

"Our findings indicate that with suitable in-vitro treatment so-called
dead neurons recover oxidative metabolism, energy production, and
axonal transport.  There appear to be some mechanisms that protect
neurons from death and, to some extent, their function may recover. ...


Which is exactly what happened to the clinically dead Pam Reynolds, she recovered fully because of the techniques used in the operation.

[Gelfling]

No offense Stephen but that is typical Science "smokescreen" and I will explain why.

Most here know that the first stages of a NDE and a OBE are very similiar. You exit the body and can witness you're enviorment in real time. That is where the sharing experiences end. From Joe the aithiest to Jack the christian experience something alike. That is usually a life review as well as meeting some form of light they refer to as "God, or ultimate consciousness" who inform's them they are not ready for death yet. Now tell me how is that Joe or Jack having never studied NDE cases all have similiar experiences?

The illusion is also again bunk. If that was the case then how exactly would someone witness real event's? How can anyone who has had more then one OBE learn to verify? So a firing neuron let's a blind  woman see? Cell's still existing allow a person to transport NEW memories that can be verified into the brain to be able to relate?

I could go on and on but you get my drift. Typical science ... let's try to prove one thing maybe wrong in hopes it makes people not look ar the rest. Some cell's still kicking around has nothing to do with the issue. The brain is dead and after all the brain is how we function, remember, and experience everything. Not by some cell.

Have a good one and excuse typo's.... 6am

[stephen~]

I don't think you read my post properly Gelfling.

The science 'smokescreen' as you put is supporting OBE/NDE not trying to disprove it. It is simply saying that, in this case, an hour elapsed from the time her brain was functioning. With no neural activity she couldn't have possibly have witnessed her own operation or stored a memory of it IF neural activity IS consciousness, because there was none.

That was the debate of the program afterall, whether consciousness is able to seperate from the body, it has everything to do with cells as those are where the 'non-believers' if you like think consciousness is located. The arguments and example of Pam Reynolds put in the program suggested very strongly that neural activity was not the be all and end all of consciousness, and that she was able to consciously leave her body when she had no neural activity. Therefore NDE/OBEs are not likely to be the illusion of misfiring neurons that ceased functioning 60 minutes previously.

The above poster seemed to be suggesting that she could not have been clinically dead for an hour (which would mean then that the NDE could still be an illusion caused by neural activity), but that is refuted by the science and I was merely backing up that with evidence that such circumstances do occur where brain function is stopped. The 'Standstill' clinical procedure and the case of Pam Reynolds are well documented, as is the potential for neurons to survive substantial amounts of time after clinical death.

[Gelfling]

Yeah evidently the time of the morning and my quick reading confused me. I am still confused. Granted I am no scientific mind. I have a degree in computer animation and that is a far cry from what we are speaking about here.

I have however read countless book's on NDE's and had a fair share of debate. I was born dead *not breathing* for over 12 minutes. I was very lucky in the fact I suffered no brain damage. I know for a fact the brain can be "dead" and survive fully working. I had a normal life. I have however felt very different in some aspect's. I have a very strong sense of empathy. Just watching someone crying can cause my eyes to water. Watching someone in distress can affect me. I have always felt a very strong energy in my hand's. I was raised in a usual Christian home and never heard about any new age theory until I got up into my late teen's. It was then I started reading and talking.

What I have found myself from the "religion" of science is a deep seated fear or disrespect for anything out of the norm. I have read more then my fair share of articles where scientist X comes upon a conclusion that is not "approved of". The result is scientist x getting pushed out almost. Reminding me much of a way a cult acts. Let me make it clear that science in general has great value. I am speaking of the die hard aithiest segment who will do just about anything to disprove ANY kind of soul/spirit/seperate consciousness including fraud.  

All that said I think in the end we can never really understand it as a observer. NDE cases are interesting read's and it is a clear difference from inducing a OBE. I was reading about a group of people who would meet and induce projections in mass. They would all attempt to project and meet up. Not everyone or everytime was a success but they did have some. Here they are walking around some plane and experiencing it together. I myself had my dream effected by someone projecting in the same house. It was a friend from college who turned me on to the whole subject. What does all this tell us? That we all belong to some collective consciousness? That a whole world or plane is out there untouched and for the most part ignored? What are we missing exactly?

Anyway sorry about that.. it was 6am and I was half awake. My apoligies

[Adrian]

Greetings Gelfling,

Thank you for your post.

You are correct, many people meet in the Astral for many reasons. Some just to explore and socialise, others to attend Spiritual schools, and there are Astral Temples to attend etc.. Whole organised activities take place in the Astral.

As I have said before, scientists seem only, for the most part, capable of willing to comprehend that which fits in with their education or own physical experiences. I believe that they are afraid to investigate or even consider anything else for fear of throwing themselves into turmoil. It is easier to stick with what they know.  A particular example is the evolution of mankind where scientists/anthropologist simply will not accept anything beyond the current evolution theories, and that there have been many highly advanced races in places such as Atlantis, Mu (Lemuria), not to mention the other evidence in central and south America - e.g. the Ica stones.

I don't have a problem with scientists - I used to be one in my early twenties.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Gandalf]

I agree with what ur saying Adrian, although I'm not sure about the atlantis mythology.. I can't get my head around that one.

Douglas

[boomyboomy]

On a related note - something to look out for -

Just to let you know there in a Horizon program on BBC2 on 20th March at 9.00 called God on the Brain.

It's about this bloke who says he can induce spiritual experiences by applying magnetic fields to someone's brain. Transcdendence at the touch of a button! Should be worth a watch.

AJ

[LJ57]

I wish I could get the BBC here where I live. It seems like they're always doing interesting documentaries. It seems like they're also more open to dealing with subjects like NDE, OBE, and spiritual stuff.

[quant]

Nice one boomy boomy, i have set a reminder so i can watch it!  Thanks again, i would never have known.

[MJ-12]

as

[goingslow]

this just popped in my mind reading this but have any of you ever seen "flat liners" its not a true story or anything but an interesting Movie on induced NDE

[boomyboomy]

Bastard BBC cancelled tonight's God on the Brain program for war coverage. I've emailed them asking when it will be shown and I'll let you know if I get a reply.

I found a weblink if you want more info on it...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

AJ

[quant]

That would be good boomyboomy, i was up last night with my video recorder on standby waiting for it to start...But disappointment []