Unless you visit a psychologist who is very open minded and spiritually aware, you are likely to be going away with a prescription for some drug that will stop you from having these "episodes".
I believe there's still too much of a gap between clinical psychology and metaphysics. The former has its grounding in so called proven scientific facts and history of case studies, which tends to leave no room for the latter.
One day it might catch up, but I'm not holding my breath.
Psychology is a science, and remember - science is the orderly arrangement of what, at the moment, seem to be the facts.
James.
I can move very small things just by thinking about it.
I hear other people's thoughts sometimes.
I sometimes talk to nonphysical aliens using telepathy.
One of my relatives was in a mental institute for a few weeks.
I am not afraid of death (but the dying part wont be fun).
I remember some short things that happened before I was born, probably on an other planet.
I am crazy. Give me the brainwashing pills.
I advise everybody here to not tell anybody wearing a suit about OBE. Its got me into some minor trouble.
Christians are taught to believe that:
-- Clearing one's mind allows the Devil to enter
-- Leaving one's body allows the Devil to take it over.
If this similar interest group follows a believe system in
exploring a self-narcisstic state of godhood (enlightenment / knowledge, astral projection / courage, psychic ability / power), why is it that we are more understanding, more open to Christ, and more kind and humble than our Christian neighbors?
Where is our will to do evil or our will to harm others?
Leviiathan:
I appreciated your comments, however I can't help notice that you obviously have had many negative xpereinces with Christians and futhermore have developed a stereotypical perception of their beliefs.
You wrote:
quote:
Christians are taught to believe that:
-- Clearing one's mind allows the Devil to enter
-- Leaving one's body allows the Devil to take it over.
If this similar interest group follows a believe system in
exploring a self-narcisstic state of godhood (enlightenment / knowledge, astral projection / courage, psychic ability / power), why is it that we are more understanding, more open to Christ, and more kind and humble than our Christian neighbors?
Where is our will to do evil or our will to harm others?
Just so you know, there are a lot of Christians (like myself) who don't believe the things you wrote, ie:
I don't believe clearing my mind is evil and I definetly am not any less kind, or don't try to be any less kind, that non-Christians.
There are, in fact, Christian mystics, etc.
Anyway, I don't want to get too deep into this, but the bottom line is that you are right to a degree...there are a lot of Christians who are very close minded, but there are also a lot of non-Christians, especially those from the "intellectual" communities who are just as close minded.
By playing into this game of judging and having prejudices, we are no better than these close minded, ignorant people. The best way to help them is by example and by not judging them.
xc
The "standardized" tests don't allot for any judgement calls. An actual person would have to talk to you about it before desiding. However I also to believe that the current trendis that there is a drug for what ever your "problem" is. I believe that many in the field are a little to quick to issue drugs where they should be more into exploring the "why" a person thinks like that. And what effect it is having on thier life, if any.
And no I haven't been to a "real" psychologist. But I have thought about it, just for the fun.
Almost forgot....I also think the movie K-Pax explores this area rather well.
quote:
Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior
So the question is, what would a psychologist likely say? Have any of you ever visted a psychologist or some health professional and told them about your OBE beliefs?
"Myths To Live By" (Joseph Campbell) addresses the links between schizophrenia and "inward journeys". Psychologically, you'd be diagnosed with schizophrenia (being weighed against only what is considered normal). This does NOT, however, mean that you're off your rocker. After all, it's a label. Keep on mind that psychology, itself, proves past theories wrong constantly, hence, changes.
Then again, your this response is being written by a schizophrenic, lol. Yet, I'm coldly logical and more sane than most people (since I have fewer irrational emotions.)
(In have a bone to pick with ya on your quote regarding marijuana, but I'll save that for later. )
I would agree that the standard doctrines said to be Christian doctrines that clearing your mind is of the devil and obe as well is not Christian beliefs as such. I would think that ba lot of Christians would thaink so though but this is the problem with Christianity or Churchanity as I prefer to call it. They claim to be Spiritual giants but will stamp out spirituality as soon as they see it. They are so afraid of wildfire that they have no fire and are very cold spiritually as a result. However Christians are not a homogenious group and their application of the scriptures vary greatly. There are some interisting qoutes that say " happy is the man in the thing wich he allows himself" " all things are lawful for me but all things does not edify" " God has given us liberty and against such liberty there is no law"it goes on and on.
quote:
Originally posted by James S
Unless you visit a psychologist who is very open minded and spiritually aware, you are likely to be going away with a prescription for some drug that will stop you from having these "episodes"...
That's an interesting thought ... do the "prescribed" drugs prevent the "episodes" by blocking ones ability? If so then are the people who are helped by the drugs simply those who cannot cope with the abilities ... in which case "Believing in OBE = Insanity" may be true [:P]
MJ-12 "A psychiatrist who is in any way trained shouldn't care what you believe as long as you are able to function as a fully contributing member of society"
I dont want to contribute to your turd-filled society. Does that mean I should be drugged? You'll say yes if you're a good member of your society.
very interesting comments. I am still waiting for someone who has actually gone in and talked to a psychologist and mentioned OBE's. I am sure it's just as subjective as anything else so it would completely depend on the individual psych. and his or her beliefs abnd thgeories.
quote:
Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior
Just so you know, there are a lot of Christians (like myself) who don't believe the things you wrote, ie:
I don't believe clearing my mind is evil and I definetly am not any less kind, or don't try to be any less kind, that non-Christians.
There are, in fact, Christian mystics, etc.
Anyway, I don't want to get too deep into this, but the bottom line is that you are right to a degree...there are a lot of Christians who are very close minded, but there are also a lot of non-Christians, especially those from the "intellectual" communities who are just as close minded.
By playing into this game of judging and having prejudices, we are no better than these close minded, ignorant people. The best way to help them is by example and by not judging them.
Thanks for your kind words PW. I know I've struggled with this issue myself. If I'm a Christen I can't believe this or that or do this or that. Or even having bad expierences with Christians so that must mean that Christianity is wrong.
I have been seeing a psychologist for about two years now and have had many conversations with him about my OBEs. The psychologist has been helping me to clear out emotionally as part of my spiritual journey. He seemed to rather enjoy my many tales about other realms and encounters with inorganic beings. I even told him about the inorganic being I had in my bedroom and I left my body and threw the sucker out through the wall.
He was a great source of support through my healing journey and I believe I helped him to do some growing as well.
There are some progressive thinking psychologists out there. Some of them will work with deep emotion healing and even take you back through your birth experience if that's where the problem lies. If you read about Carl Jung he had some pretty amazing experiences himself with hearing voices and interacting with other realms. I guess I was fortunate to find a psychologist where no discussion was out of bounds. We did quite a lot of work with dream analysis and that really helped key in on some problem areas.
Overall it was an excellent experience for me.
Linda.
I see a psychologist/councellor on a regular basis, and I am open about my spirituality and my belief in other worlds and OBEs. He hasn't given me any pills.
Though I am curious to see what he is jotting down on that notepad of his...
Later
-FT
Greetings PeacefulWarrior,
quote:
Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior
very interesting comments. I am still waiting for someone who has actually gone in and talked to a psychologist and mentioned OBE's. I am sure it's just as subjective as anything else so it would completely depend on the individual psych. and his or her beliefs abnd thgeories.
How about Robert Monroe - that is exactly what he did in his early days of experiencing spontaneous OBE's. I think that is how TMI ultimately came about.
With best regards,
Adrian.
That's right! I gorgot about that! Thanks Adrian.
Also, thanks LindaSmith...your post is quite helpful.
Another question: Do you think it is correct to assume that the population of a wesbite like this one would have a higher percentage of people who have sought emotional/psychological help?
I personally do not, but then again I can imagine someone making the case.
Another question: No, but I think there is a higher % of us that OTHERS think should get help or be committed.
I am majoring in Psychology and hope to be a child psycholgoist some day. I have had OBE's and am very open minded about those issues. I have never actually been to a psychologist but my dad sees one on a regular basis and asked him about OBE's because i talk to him about my experiences. he said that many of his patients have experienced things like this but he doesnt know much about it. (and no he didnt send any pills home for me) [:P] Anyways, I have thought about how awesome it would be if a could score a job (later on after i have gone to grad school maybe) with a group of psychologists who will study metaphysical related issues on a higher level and maybe even start a school or something of the sort? i dont know just a dream i guess.
The Idea of astral travel is not so bizar in psychological terms. I place firm beliefs in science which has always made me skeptical of spiritual things.
There are so many accounts of OOB's that it has to be acknowledged that they do occur. The only question that remains is the actual leaving of the body. Psychologists can relate an OOB to a lucid dream and not a trip out of the body but one into the depths of the subconcious.
Even so, any open minded scientist should grasp the pure therapeutic and health aspects gained from these techniques. Mr Bruce's account of one meditation session where he turns over a card in his mind with great resistance. On the other side is an ugly mutation which he proceeds to destroy with a mind sword. The next day a big wart he'd had for years on his neck disappeared. [:D]
Astral dynamics also grazes the topic when it talks about taping a playing card to the window and then using OOB to see what it is. Robert says it works but he also heeds not to take his word and try it for yourself.
As a scientist I can indeed not take this good man's word, But I will follow his advice.
npiv,as you said:
"There are so many accounts of OOB's that it has to be acknowledged that they do occur. The only question that remains is the actual leaving of the body. Psychologists can relate an OOB to a lucid dream and not a trip out of the body but one into the depths of the subconcious."
I got the same answer from a psychologyst young friend.She listened carefully to my OBE reports,she seemed to understand every point (since they are normally open minded people)but she definetely didn´t look at the OBE as a fully functional phenomena.(And probably thought the vibrations and pulling-out shock were mere simptoms of some stress being relieved...)When she said: "It comes all from your mind,it´s a mental thing" I got so ticked-off I didn´t want to go on talking about it...
Greetings
loco "When she said: "It comes all from your mind,it´s a mental thing" I got so ticked-off I didn´t want to go on talking about it..."
Thats partially true (from somebodys mind, not just your own), but she made the mistake of thinking mind is contained in body.
Beavis,
either don´t get your point or must say don´t agree with...I think there are other aspects involved in a OBE much more important than our mind...as the energy storage,for instance(if not the most). Maybe we missunderstood our own meanings of MIND here, I was talking(and she)of our "generator/processor of thoughts and our everyday computer"....maybe you are talking about something more abstract.Did you?
In the only way I found my everyday mind helping me to OBE is when it gets out of the way.[:D] It was my mind the one that thought OBEs were not possible.and the one that now is having a though time dealing with its evidence
She was refering to the "mental think" as if my OBE had been a very sophisticated product of my imagination. That was where I saw we were too far from each other
The thing about psychologists is that they will tend to go with you in any case because that's what they're supposed to do. If they didn't want to hear your stories, then you wouldn't give them money to have them hear it.
I personally think (even though it is a liable career choice for me) that psychology is relatively useless. You're pretty much paying for a chance to talk to someone that's gonna listen to you for an hour a day.
That came off harsh didn't it? Sorry. Just my opinions :)
~Squeek (On the inside, psychologists think everyone is crazy)
loco "It was my mind the one that thought OBEs were not possible.and the one that now is having a though time dealing with its evidence"
That was your brain. Part of your mind that you use all the time is external to your body.
"as if my OBE had been a very sophisticated product of my imagination"
Everything (that I have seen) I think is a product of imagination, including all physical things. "Incarnate" in a physical object and use your imagination on it. It moves under your control. I have other reasons for believing that but cant be put into words.
I have become crasy for real, because I felt creatures around me in normal state and started to be afraid, and to do things that normal people don't just to sort out this problem... I put myself in such a state that I wanted ta believe only what would come from god or angels... I finaly was able to ask for help because an angel made me know that "god will present himself as my doctor"... which happend to be a psychiatrist, and of course drugged me like a madman. Anyway, there was no real problem for it was the first time, but now I am carefull with psy-whatever, because I'm sure there was a less "in-your-face" way to let me come back softly... but they don't know how, people who know what to do in such case are initiated, and you all should always have someone like this near them, because if ever there start to happen unpleasant things, you'll know who you can contact. My point of view is that psychatrist drugs can create real monsters who have extra-perception, but finaly are sedated or loaded with extra-"weight" (I mean psychic weight) in order to keep them "on earth" which only make of them strange constructions with tied legs and arms, floating strangely between two states, one is not complete and comes from drugs, and the other is too strong and wins over the rest chronicaly... this way nothing is taken fully, and you can never learn how to become a full human, standing beetween earth and heavens.
Well, i'm a psychologist, and I regularly astrally project. I think the specific words I am looking for is 'cognitive polyphasia'... the capacity to adhere to two apparently contradictory forms of knowledge and belief. But I don't see any problem with it. And I read tarot [;)]
C
I will make my psy read that one!
Seems to me that 30% of the times someone who has an O>B>B>E has done some form of a drug..changing the PH of the brain which starts an illusion or an OBBE experience....then there are those who have them when they are asleep....unaware until they feel as though they just fell 3ft while laying in their bed and then awaken to find themselves
in disbelief....where was I....????? LOL
THen we have those that happen while we are lucit...awake....or doing something....like thinking very deeply...day dreaming or...driving a car down a higway......LOL
My parents make me go to a physcologist, and Ive never told her about my spiritual beliefs. When she asked me about my church, I told her that I worshiped the almighty Plywood.
Tough question to answer really. It's impossible to say what any random psychologist is going to think about OBE. The world is definately awakening to spirituality, but most of it isn't there yet. Most people don't even care about such experiences, they just don't find them practical to the world we live in. Walk on broken eggs when you decide to share you experiences with someone.
Hi,
I was a dual major (Psychology / Christian Education) in college. In the simplest terms, I was taught that you only "medicate" (or in more severe cases institutionalize) someone who you believe is a reasonably credible danger to society or themselves. If a patient ASKS for help alleviating some problem that you feel medication would help, that is a discretionary call.
As you can see, there is a lot of room for subjective opinion in this. Accordingly, you will find vast differences between psych professionals according to their personal beliefs.
Keep in mind I was only a college student, and at least one person here is apparently an actual psychologist, so maybe he can offer a more authoritative answer?
--Soulfire
I once got scheduled (without my knowing) for a school psychological counselor interview because I "thought I could mystically astral project" among other ignorant, stupid, and baseless accusations. At any rate, I came out of it fine, but I remember some of the questions like "do you believe you can see things that other people can't see" "do you believe you can hear things that other people can't hear". My answer was no, of course not. If I didn't know that they were just an attempt to diagnose schizophrenia I would have added the rest of my thought; I don't see or hear things that other people can't, just that most people don't.
I am currently seeing a Psycologist and telling about obes . ¨
She asked if i saw things , said no (havent managed obe).
She asked if i heard things others did not and was very interested when i said yes . Though it dabbed off when it was clear that it was tinnitus (hearing noises).
Besides that she didnt care much about obes as i currently sees her for the emotinal problems i got from my experience to induce them (normal meditation and visualization).
Today thought i did a abilitys test , did good on evrything cept spacial reasoning and logic thinking , those where way better than whatever normal she uses . Guess its because of my episode with obe attempts that ended with me getting no sleep ,very much energy ,and something best described as "getting photoshop and 3d studio programs crabbed in your head". I could imagine/construct any object i wanted and rotate/change them in my head off course in realtime =).
it died down since after i got more "normalised" (my standard=) ).
But i still can very easy rotate "simplistic cube constructs" and count up blocks its made of.
Myself find it not extraordinary but my psycologist seems easy to please in the test department. Hehe i thought she was about to say "your pretty smart for being so twisted" after we finnished .
Well thats my experience with the psycologist.
The normal doctor however almost fell out of the chair when i told him what problems i had , and prescribed antipsycothics pills to make the bad stuff go away while i waited for more "proffecional" help.
Those pills MADE me psycothic ! + something extra . Well i may not have gotten fully psycothic . but was very confused and emotinal (EVERYTHING on tv triggered a strong feeling ) + things where falling down around me .
Well thats my story for meeting the "proffecionals" its not so bad thought i still advise beeing the judge for whats good or bad for you .
Doctors will give you antipsychotic pills to counterbalance the chemicals your brain has. If They are closer to normal than the doctor thought (or he thought there was too much but there was not enough, or vice versa), then it will push your chemicals more off center. But its boring to be on center.
any halfway decent psychologist will realize that spiritual/religious/cultural beliefs are not reason to deem someone "crazy" unless they interfere/bother the person and they think he may be a threat to himself or others.
and many people we would deem "crazy" are highly respected in other cultures, and in the past were in our own.
so...
having said that, i hate how they hand pills out like they are candy... I mean.... THEY JUST GUESS that you have a chemical imbalance... WELL WHAT IF YOU DON'T? Isn't there some way to test that? I mean, it's crazy, if you give someone with a normal brain anti depressants you are going to screw up his brain chemistry....
and those things are hell to quit... I know from experience, I stopped taking mine (without them knowing) after I got sick of the side effects and how they constantly wanted to up my dosage all the time because the pills weren't making me happy (i wonder why...)....
At one point I remember my dosage quadrupling within a one month period... or maybe just tripling.. I can't remember too well... but I know that I got sick of it and weaned myself off them... which was living hell...
Constantly feeling like you're gonna pass out for a solid month... very cold, during the summer... extremely weak... horrible horrible horrible nightmares....
(one involuntary OBE with some bright shimmery guy in my room, that was kind of cool)
Stay off medication without getting your brain tested to see that there are actually chemical problems going on, and even then, be leary of it.
Pills aren't going to fix things, it is ultimately your own resopnsibility to decide to get better.
(at least probably 99% of the time)
I saw a psychological therapist in college after I went to a career counselor to find out what I wanted to do with my life. There just wasn't anything in society I wanted to do - and yet I felt I could do anything. My career counselor suggested emotional counseling.
I was very open with my therapist (it would be useless not to) and wanted to hear a professional opinion on issues affecting human consciousness - lucid dreams, astral projection, etc. The more I kept a dream journal I felt mental "noise" while I was awake - an indecipherable cloud of thoughts that made it difficult to concentrate. Understandable, I thought, I was expanding my consciousness and this was difficult to deal with. It just happened that I also I felt like I was experiencing an onslaught from an entity in my dreams - the "external" feeling was clear, and in waking life I encountered what felt like an uncanny amount of bad luck, and entertained the possibility that my bad dreams were connected.
I wasn't doing very well in school. I did enough just to get by, and I was considering withdrawal because there was nothing I wanted to do - why waste my parents' money. I told my therapist I considered suicide out of the fact that I simply didn't like life - I didn't like the people, I didn't like the system, I didn't like the way things worked - and that I felt this way since the 4th grade. For me, choosing death was an emotionless matter of opinion - an opinion I wanted people close to me to accept as my own and understand. Understandably, this hurt my ability to form personal relationships. An anxiety surfaced out of the observation that I was someone out of place in a world I didn't belong in.
I was pushed antipsychotic drugs and antidepressents by a psychiatrist after meeting with him once. Always open-minded, I accepted and figured drugs could possibly help clear my mind, which would allow me to find my place in life and society. I was not told they were for schizophrenics, or that there was anything wrong with me, in fact - just that they might help.
The antidepressants did nothing but make me incredibly thirsty, so they increased the dosage twice, which increased the side effects. They gave me others which did they same. On top of this were the antipsychotics - which were dreadful.
Absolutely horrible creations of mad science. I was knocked unconscious when I took them and didn't dream, sleeping 12 hours, missing classes. My will was weakened and lost capacity to think. I said they were awful and weren't working, and they said I had to adjust to them. They increased the dosage. I'm a patient person - I stuck through 10 years straight of wanting to die, but chose to give life time.
Eventually the drugs "cleared" my mind, alright. I had the soul of a robot. All thought was a single track. I could do homework perfectly with no distractions. No daydreaming. No night dreaming either, but lots of sleep. Fun with my girlfriend was something of the past. Any sort of creative thought was out of the question. It just wasn't a viable option to be imaginative, odd as that may seem. Having the "will" to do something sounded like a meaningless concept - I had no will, only action.
Once I recognized what was going on, I immediately stopped the drugs and appointments, if not for being treated like a lab rat. Saying I would learn to live as a free thinking human being or die trying, my loving and patient girlfriend was upset.
To make a long story short, I found out that what I needed to learn was love. I never had very good teachers - (my parents worried and fought, love was not something they knew instinctively). I pushed my girlfriend away telling her she deserved a better lover, a selfless and mature lover, but that I would devote my life to learning how to love like that and come back to her when I was ready.
I'm ready. She's with someone else. Don't see psychiatrists. Learn love. And, if you can, don't learn it by losing it. Please don't.
Please don't.
Most of the time the psychologist is crazier than you are.[:P][:P][:P]
The ones I've known personally went into the field to figure out their own problems. And I mean --> huge <-- crippling mental problems; much worse than anything their patients are dealing with.
Seriously folks, when somebody today tells me they're a counseler or therapist I wonder what they must have wrong with them.
http://www.imagerynet.com/book/index.html
Great book, by a very spiritual man. I think it is a very forward step for OBE and psychic science in general.
Slightly off-topic...
I have a friend who had a teacher at school, who once announced to the class "Can any of you actually PROVE that you're sane?" To which there was silence.. After this the teacher said "WELL I CAN!" and he pulled out a piece of paper CERTIFYING that he was sane!
Apparently this was given to him earlier in the year when he was discharged from a psychiatric institute. I guess that really gave all those school kids a nice warm safe feeling inside....!
Must get one of those....
catmeow
wow thats kinda sad that they actually give certificates out saying that your sane...its impossible to prove that someone is sane or insane because we all are different.. also-- isnt that saying if your just like everyone else and you dont think differently then you are sane.. but then you are never learning anything new and were all just forcing ourselfs to not progress... hmm the idea of it is confusing me now.. i shouldnt post when im tired...[B)]
If one were to walk in to schedule an appointment with a psychologist and walk in and share his or her ideas and beliefs about OBE's and the astral, what do you think the psychologist would say?
Would there be differences in what one psychologist would say compared to another? Would they administer tests and as long as you came out ok in other areas they would not think you are "crazy."
I know I took a psych test and because I answered certain questions with the affrimative, such as "Do you in non-physical beings" OR "Do you ever "hear" voices?" I came out as having some schizophrenic tendencies.
So the question is, what would a psychologist likely say? Have any of you ever visted a psychologist or some health professional and told them about your OBE beliefs?