Not yet convinced "OBEs" are paranormal - What do you think?

[atraveler]

Hi,

It's been a while since I've posted.  I experimented with galantamine for a while and came to the realization that supplements are a crutch and really are unnecessary (even though they work very well).  After a month or so off the supplements, I started having brief spontaneous lucid dreams, and, this morning (Thanksgiving 2008) I was able to convert one into my typical OBE experience.  I've had about ten such experiences (mostly using the saltcube.com beeps technique)  since February of this year (my first spontaneous OBE).

It almost always happens the same way.  I'm having a normal dream in my last sleep cycle of the night (usually after 7am).  Then I realize I'm dreaming (LD) and I'll then try to go OOB.  Today I tried after an LD and was having a little trouble but then I felt a rolling sensation and was able to "roll out of my body" like I've heard many people do.  It didn't occur to me to *try* to roll because I'd never done it before, but I just felt that sensation.  Strangely, I didn't feel much vibes this time.  When I was out, I went over to the bathroom, and then out the window to a little adventure.  The brief part of flying through the bedroom, being in the bathroom, and flying out the window was very hazy.  You might say that the further I got "away from my body", the more vivid things got.  Also, the longer the experience lasted, the more dream-like it was and the more vivid the scenery around me was.  In the end I was at a grocery/dept. store and I tried three times to turn some bread rolls into chocolate.  It didn't work but I ate one anyway.

After several "OBEs", I've experienced: the melting hands phenomenon, seeing hieroglyphics close in my vision, feeling tons of vibes, seeing myself in mirrors, lots of flying, putting my hands through walls, being in or around my house OOB, staying awake while my body begins snoring, an extremely brief conscious-exit, and other sensations.  I have not yet experienced: any verification, the dweller on the threshold, seeing my physical body in bed, having only part of my astral body out but part stuck in, having a real conversation with another entity, or any astral realms.

So far, I'm not convinced that it's necessary to invoke the paranormal to explain my experiences.  It seems to me that all that can be said is that I've developed some level of ability (still at the beginner stages) to experience dream phenomena while partially conscious/awake.

Now just because I haven't had the heavy-duty experiences like many book-authors have (verification experiences, substantive conversations with other entities, experiences in astral realms, tandem OBEs with other people etc.) doesn't mean that these aren't all real and that OBEs aren't paranormal.  It just seems that the "dreaming while conscious" explanation is so much simpler.  Not to mention, (which is a real downer btw) Stephen LaBerge doesn't believe in OBEs.  He thinks it's all just LDs.  Does this mean all my favorite book-authors are wrong?

For me, the holy grail for OBEs isn't "proof".  Too many schmucky skeptics can come up with a million reasons why your "proof" is their BS.  The holy grail is to be totally and utterly convinced - like many NDErs are.  What do you think?  Is the paranormal just wishful/magical thinking or does consciousness really transcend the body?

Feeling unsure,
Atraveler

[Synergy]

The most validating experience for me was one where I awoke from an afternoon nap, and looked around the room... but I felt kind of odd... I had awaken, but I think I was at the beginning (not the end like usual) of a REM stage... I had awoken just before sleep paralysis took over.  As I lay there, the sleep paralysis took over while I was awake and fully conscious... not in a state somewhere in between.  From sleep paralysis, I closed my eyes, and just let go... and I literally passed through my closed eyelids... It was like a scene from the movie Ghost where he went through somebody.  I passed through my own skin...

Since that was an experience from full waking and not sleep, I know there were no dream elements.  The OBE in this case was etheric.

I have also had experiences where I was in astral projection and talked to my dad who is deceased.  I KNOW they were real and not dreams... and I can't explain how.  It's like right now... you know you are awake reading this... how can you prove it?  And are you sure you are really awake?

[Shin]

Dreaming while being conscious IS lucid dreaming. I didn't have an OBE yet, but I often hear that it's not compareable to a dream. I believe that I was often about to leave my body, I could feel leaving it but I wasn't asleep, I didn't have katalepsy, but I was very very relaxed. I was aware of my body, I just didn't think much about it. Whether it is paranormal or not is a matter of definition. If the soul REALLY leaves the body during OBEs, then, is this paranormal? If we could prove that there is a soul, that it can leave the body - wouldn't it rather turn into something natural? Paranormal phenomenoms right now are all things science cannot explain. There are scientists doing research on OBEs and NDEs - their results though don't satisfy me. Especially NDEs are mysterious because there's a recorded NDE where a woman was having a brain-operation: This means that she was connected to an EEG and EKG of course. The doctors cooled her body down to 16°C I believe - the EEG was a flat line and that's when she was having an NDE. In that state she's dead. There are several NDE theories which cannot explain that special NDE - though, there are other theories: For example, the EEG cannot measure everything, so maybe her brain was still, quietly, working. We don't know ... anyways, what I'm trying to say is: If you can explain it, it's something which really exists and which thus is "normal" ... and not "paranormal".

[atraveler]

Thanks Synergy and Shin,

Your experience (Synergy) is very profound.  The conversations with your father are fascinating.  I read that during encounters with other entities in regular dreams, the dream entities aren't really capable of extended conversations or deep thoughts.  They can usually only express one single theme, that of the dream.  In the case of your conversations, the more vivid and complex (back and forth exchange), the more convincing.

Apart from the "dream -> LD -> in bed trying to get out -> OOB" theme which repeats itself in almost all my experiences, OBEs tend to differ from LDs and regular dreams in that the more powerful and vivid the OBE, the less action happens during the OBE.  Regular dreams are like one-act plays in which there's a storyline and characters etc.  During OBEs, I'm in some kind of setting or environment, and all that's happening is that I'm exploring it.  No events happen until after the experience "devolves" back into an LD.

I will keep practicing meditation and OBEs.  This topic is absolutely fascinating.  Once you've had a few of these experiences, you're hooked.  I'm surprised this topic isn't more mainstream.

[T.L.]

I don't really think it's anyone's place to make another "believe" or convince someone that obe's are not just dreams. Once the person puts months or even years into trying to project they will have enough experience with lucid dreams so that when they finally do succeed in projection they see the differences between obe's and lucid dreams. I have practiced in succeeding in obe's for years now, I think by now its four years (maybe even one or two more). After a few months of practice I found myself able to lucid dream no problem, I wouldn't even know what you could call what I experienced a lucid dream but it was all in my mind. I would wake up in various places, it was very much like waking up in the morning in my bed. I think the first time I woke up in an abandoned factory, I was really puzzled. I would know every event that transpired before I found myself in those situations, I would know I was laying in bed trying to project then I would just black out, and awake in odd places. I could control the entire environment no problem at all.

   It was a lucid dream but it wasnt like realizing I was dreaming during a dream that was already in progress. It was awakening in a dream before it was even started, no people just me in odd places. It was like an internal projection, living inside my own mind. Even then I knew it was not a projection like everyone talked about, even though they were profound and exciting experiences. One would probably classify my first experiences as "WILDS" (wake initiated lucid dreams), these experiences always came after I "black out" for what would seem a few seconds. How it would happen is I would attempt a projection, get to the vibrations, hearing tons of popping, and buzzing sounds then I would just black out and came to a few seconds later. So to me it was a huge tell, that I was just inducing lucid dreams, very vivid and interesting ones, but just lucid dreams. My first OBE straight from conscious to out of body was not too long ago. I woke  up from sleep stayed up for a while, did a few other things then decided to lay down and relax. I was too awake to fall asleep again, so I ended up tossing and turning trying to get comfortable. Within only a few minutes I had the vibrations, and these head rushes I would get from time to time. I turned over a bit to get them to stop because I was trying to fall asleep. The more I ingored them the stronger they were, then a few seconds later I could see through my closed eyelids and I was looking at the fabric on my couch. I closed my eyes very tightly to realize my eyes were already closed. It went away then I felt like I was floating up and over then back down, I noted how odd this felt. After laying down for a little while perhaps only 10-15 minutes or so I realized I would not be able to fall sleep, on top of that I started to feel odd and ill. I decided I would get up and get a drink.

    As I was getting up I realized I was on the floor, and was looking at my carpet. I thought that was weird because I hadn't lost consciousness and I thought I would feel falling onto the floor. I looked around torwards my kitchen an I felt very odd like I was moving through water. I decided to go lay back on the couch I turned around and took a step towards the couch only to see myself laying on the couch already. I was truly surprised by that because I thought I was already in my physical body since I had not lost consciousness at all, not even blacked out.. I walked over to the bedroom noticed my wife and daughter were sleeping and wearing something other than what they were earlier. I walked around my living room reading things just to see if the experience was objective enough and I could quite fine. I took another look at my body laying on the couch, then intended to sit up and I did no problem then wrote down the experience. It was indeed real and no loss of consciousness at all. Through the transition of being physical to non-physical I was awake as well. The movement of going up and over then down was very subtle I thought it was just my body feeling very relaxed. It wasnt until I decided to open my eyes and stand up did I realize anything was different. After years of ld's I knew this was not a dream (and not just because I never lost consciousness). It has to be experienced for a person to know, there is know way for me to prove what happened to me to another. The only objective thing I can say is that dreams follow expectations. In my LD's if I wanted to see something or expected to it was right in front of me, and if I expected something to not happen, it would not happen. If it was an LD when I went back to my couch I expected it to be empty no one in it, since I was just laying in it... so it would have been empty. The differences are really huge but you just have to experience it first hand to see for yourself. Good Luck.

[atraveler]

Wow T.L.  That's an extremely vivid OBE, and completely different in nature from your lucid dreams.  I think you're right that no one can convince someone else; it absolutely has to be experienced personally.  Robert Monroe talks about beliefs versus "knowns", which are both very personal.

It sounds like most of your experiences have been WILDs.  Practically all of my experiences have been DILDs.  The conscious-exit OBE you described was absolutely fascinating even though it wasn't overly eventful.  During my experiences I have much more awareness than during normal dreams, but nowhere near 100% of my normal waking awareness.  It sounds like you had a lot of awareness in that experience.  Imagine if you could have more of those, what you'd do.  Have you attempted more?  If you did have more such experiences, what would you do?  Fly around the neighborhood or city?  Attempt to verify some facts later?  Find out what the astral really is?

Good luck in your future projections!  Everyone's success benefits everyone else here on the forums.

Cheers,
Atraveler

[T.L.]

"The conscious-exit OBE you described was absolutely fascinating even though it wasn't overly eventful."
I'm a pretty boring person heh. Yeah I have had more since the first time. The second time was pretty much the same as the first, situation wise. I laid down on my couch a couple hours after I woke up. I relaxed the vibrations started (usually is localized to my upper spine and head). They got stronger and the head rushes started. I was out within seconds after the head rushes started. This time I already knew I was out, first time was more of an accident so it took a second for me to realized what happened (by seeing my body). I went over to the couch again sort of feeling very odd, noting the oddness of apparently being in two places at once. I went over to the bedroom to see what my wife and child were up to but the door was closed. Without hesitation I went through the door.

   The physical still looked very solid even while out, but it is more like moving through a hologram. I encountered no resistance and ended up on the other side no problem.  My movement seemed to be very natural to me. I would just hover and be propelled forward just by thinking about it. Anyhow I hovered in the very corner of the room, seem my wife and child were sleeping. I thought about screaming and seeing if they would hear me, or if they would be affected by me shouting while out when they were sleeping. I decided against it because if my child woke up screaming, it would end the experience. So I went out of my house through the bedroom wall. I decided to see if I could stay out long enough to fly to town. I followed the route I use to drive no problem. I noted it was raining (just drizzling though) which I thought might be wrong since it looked clear enough when I came home from work. I seen some people walking around town, so I went down to the side walk. I seen a middle aged woman walking, and talking on a cell phone. I walked up to her waving my hands in front of her face screaming "can you hear me" and nothing, no hesitation or response. I noted also the longer I was out the more it felt like I would pass out or black out. I was pretty surprised how easy I was able to induce an obe straight from waking consciousness but I think the problem came from over-thinking about how to do it. When in the right state physically/mentally it seems to be an automatic thing (the separation).

   Anyway I plan on doing a few things to help prove it to my wife. I have a feeling she thinks Im crazy, or just making it up, or having vivid dreams. So I plan on having my wife take a sheet of paper and writing any number from like 1-99 or something along those lines, and having her place it on a high shelf so I wont accidentally see it under normal circumstances. I think she will just accuse me of cheating if I succeed so after that I dont know what Ill try next heh. I want to also try the same thing with a friend who lives an hour away, that way he will know for sure I didnt cheat. But in one of my experiences I tried to will myself to his location but it didnt work. I first thought about his name, nothing happened, so I thought about the location and again nothing happened. Mentally willing my place from one location to another is one thing I have to figure out how to achieve, its not as easy as I thought it would be. I expected it would be automatic upon a person willing themselves somewhere, or to someone but it seems I was wrong (at least in my case). Moving about, and flying is pretty easy and automatic though. 

[Tongo]

Tell us when your planning to officially try this experiment with you wife putting the numbers between 1 and 99. I'd like to see if you can verify them. Why don't you have her put 2 seperate numbers between 1 and 99 in 2 seperate locations in your house, obviously locations where you cant casually look at them.

[Tongo]

Ignore this sorry mistake.

[atraveler]

Hi T.L.

That last OBE you recounted was awesome!  It's fantastic that you went outside to see what was going on.  My experiences usually become more dreamlike the longer I'm out.  The semi-accurate RTZ part for me lasts only about 15 - 30 seconds until dream imagery starts appearing until it no longer resembles reality at all.

Good luck with your verification experiences.  If you're able to read a number and whatever else your wife writes, at the very least it will convince you.  Make sure you write down what you saw first before you look at your wife's writing.  I actually am doing this experiment with my next-door neighbor who's very cool.  He's very skeptical about it.  He's written a 5-letter word on a piece of paper on the wall in one of his back rooms.  In my last OBE/LD, I made it inside his house, but I didn't have enough clarity or lucidity and it was overly dreamlike. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your experiences you seem to have a lot of awareness where things seem very similar to real life.  Mine often get clouded by a veil of dreaminess.  I want to remember to say "Clarity NOW!!!" like William Buhlman suggests.  I've done it before and it does help some.  I often go around exploring the scenery/setting.  Maybe I should just stand still next time and walk very slowly and just observe.  I've heard my voice before, which kind of sounds like I'm talking into a metal box.  I've also briefly felt that duality of being in two places at once.  It felt strange but not unnatural.  I would like to relax and summon more awareness.

I'm imagining that awareness is like an energy or fuel that you use up.  Maybe by going around a lot I run out of gas (awareness) and things become dreamlike.  Seeing myself in mirrors is probably the same as seeing my hands.  It doesn't make sense, but since my psyche expects to see myself, I do.  Next time, instead of going around doing stuff, I'll try to "experience the experience".

Thanks for sharing your stories.  I hope to hear more of your stories!

Cheers,
Atraveler

[Token]

Cool post Atraveler and yes you're right, sometimes it does just seem like it can all just be chalked up to conscious dreaming, but I think that statement right there is misleading.  "Just" a dream is something that is easily said especially by western culture and to me that is like saying we are "just" alive and conscious. 

When we are young we are told "it's only a dream, go back to sleep now" and we have learned over the years that waking reality, our job, family, friends, etc. is the only thing that is real and thoughts, daydreams, dreams, LD, and OBE are to be put in that "other" catagory as something to be amused about, but not to take seriously or to give much thought to.  I think this is a big mistake and puts a wash over any gift we may have to see clearly into the real "truth" out there. 

I think that OBE is a gift to be able to see dreams for what they really are.  It's easy to say OBE are just dreams, but I think that is the wrong idea, instead we shoud be saying "Wow! dreams are OBEs and all along I thought dreams were just dreams!"  In other words, I think OBE is the small keyhole many of us have been looking for to put the whole reality thing into perspective.  It is the opportunity to finally take the rose colored shades off and see reality for what it really is.

I have had several hundred short and long OB experiences and if nothing else I have come to a personal realization that this "other" world is clearly a world every bit as profound as waking reality.  I think perhaps the strongest reason I have for saying that is because of all of the times, during clear OBE, when I have found myself saying and with full conviction "this is every bit as real as waking life. Right here, right now I am fully experiencing reality and yet I am sound asleep".  I think when one awakes, due to western training or otherwise, we come to the thought that "it was just a dream" way too easily.  Why can we be so sure of ourselves during the experience, then have doubts later upon awakening?

I think for me the other profound thing I have gotten from OBE is that in the same way we can question the reality of an OBE world, it is just as easy to question the reality of a waking world.  There is no reason to believe one over the other.  Sure there are some seeming reasons, like the steadfastness of waking reality, but is that really good enough?  Where does this experience come from?  The scientists will tell you its from the electrical and chemical discharges in the brain, but the engineer with tell you that no amount of circuit wirings, and the chemist will tell you no amount of chemical reactions, will lead to this thing we call waking consciousness (or sleeping consciousness for that matter).  There is no known reason why there is a connection between the body and consciousness, all we know is that there is. 

Also just as a side note, I'm really surprised you have not yet had a conversation with an astral entity.  Have you tried to?  It can be quite amusing and sometimes very surprising.

Token