Hey Holy_Reality,
The only thing I can recommend is making sure you continually concentrate on one technique. For example, the Triangle Method, or climbing the ROPE. Only focus on one of these things.. whatever you favorite happens to be. Never stop doing this. Some people can think of nothing and maintain consciousness, but a lot of people fall asleep eventually.
Focus on one thing. And keep doing it.
Another possibility is your exhausted. Mentally, physically, or both. Some people do better when they are physically exhausted.. while others can't concentrate. However, sometimes others are just mentally tired.. don't have the energy to concentrate on anything but falling asleep. Make sure you are mentally prepared to stay awake.. you need energy.
I hope this helps.. maybe give it a shot and see if it works. I know what you are going through is very frustrating. But I think you will figure out what's going on.
Good luck!
okay...
so I counted backwards from 50 and did some deep breathing, got relaxed.... tried duality, but I thought that by continuing it it would promote random thoughts, so instead I just did a simple mantra "i will astrally project"
i did it over and over again
after a while, the words disconstruct and jumble up and don't make sense, and I go into the hypnagogic state, I might imagine a brief scene or see a picture, then BAM mantra is back to normal and I'm focused, for a little while, maybe 30 seconds, until I slip back into the hypnagogic state...
now this was working great, becuase i wasn't tired when I came out of it, yet I was able to slip in and out and in and out....
after a while there was this one time when I suddenly slipped backed into consciousness that I felt my arms go completely numb.. they weren't paralyzed however, just... numb....
now... I know that if I can stay in the hypnagogic state long enough, when I snap out of it, my body could be completely asleep... and I think this about the ONLY way I will ever get to body asleep/mind awake..
I need to stay in that chaotic random hypnagogic state for as long as possible before I realize what I'm doing and my mantra snaps back in....
but how do I do this?
Are you all like that? Or is your mind 100% focused the entire time and your body just magically drifts to sleep? It seems the only way I can trick it into sleeping is by actually falling asleep, only, keeping enough awareness that I snap out of it after a little while...
It's so hard though... I remember thinking "i need to stay in that longer" then I imagined I was looking at posts and I'd start scrolling down and down and down and down, and this was probably the longest I stayed in the state, but as soon as I really realized what was happening I snapped back into the mantra....
See... I think I'm only entering alpha waves.. then jumping back into low beta, hence not fully paralyzed....
So..... how in the world do I take control of this hypnagogic state? Do I just have to keep trying over and over again ? Because I'm pretty familiar with that state and all, I just can't control it and if I focus I'm back alert. I have to let my thoughts be hijacked... but... the only way I can seem to do that is if I'm realy tired, and then I just completely fall asleep... and I can't maintain a mantra in those circumstances.
So.... I don't know what to do.
Oh yeah and at one point my mantra developed a French accent lol... I was kind of worried that when I came out of it I'd be speaking with a French accent forever.
Haha Holy Reality..
If I came out of something like speaking French or Russian, I would be terrified! But rest assured that wont happen. [;)] That gave me a good chuckle!
It sounds like you are having a struggle with all of this.. it sounds very familiar to what I went through at first. I think I have progressed in a way where I am aware of "trying too hard". Which may be the case with you. I have entered full paralysis by being fully conscious, with minor hypnagogic imagery. (Occassionaly, I would see something.. here and there) The feeling of going numb is a good sensation.. that generally indicates the start of a deeper trance. Unfortunately, you want more than your arms in this state.
I have learned that so many different things can happen. And it changes with every experience. If there is one thing I learned more than anything, it is that there is no TRUE way to do all of this, and everybody (even each of your experiences) is completely different!
One night, I meditated in a deep trance, entered paralysis, saw hypnagogic imagery.. occasionally heard strange sounds, felt numb.. and stayed this way for 5 hours. That's right, 5 FULL REAL hours. But this helped me realize why this was occurring...
1.) Energy development
2.) Consciousness development
3.) Patience
4.) Experience
5.) Understanding
So in answer to your question, you need to find out which returns the most results. I know many people, including Robert Bruce, are fully conscious.. from start to finish when they induce OBE. While others manage to slip in to a dream, "check back" and keep trying. (Similar to you)... and some even do it from the DREAM itself, by starting a lucid session and tranforming it in to an Astral/OBE experience.
A note on being fully conscious... don't focus "too hard". You need to be in a RELAXED focus state. Focus enough to stay conscious, but don't start thinking, "what's happening now? Now what do i do? Oh darn I need to stay in that state? What was that sound? How come nothing is happening?" Things will start happening on their own if you can relax.
And if not, you are advancing.. it takes time. You are retraining a muscle.. your brain. It's not used to staying awake while the body sleeps. You have conditioned it to go to sleep at night for many years now. But slowly, things will get better.
thanks a lot for the replies Dragen..
the accent thing was really weird... normally my inner "voice" just kind of sounds like me... but it sounded completely french, and I was aware of this, yet it kept sounding that way.
lol... umm...
I think my arms were just going numb becuase of poor circulation to them, and that I believe I may have had my fists slightly clenched, though I didn't realize that until I got bored and rolled over and started the whole process over again.
I have so much experience with projecting at night though, you would think that since I've done it before it should be really easy to get back to that state, but I can't.
There comes a point when I'm aware of my body but I can also kind of project my "body" elsewhere, into the blackness of my eyelids, and like iamgine I'm holding onto something and pulling on it really hard, and it'll get me out.
Or I can ask someone for help.
But I don't know how to get into that state voluntarily... I guess it's a trance? It doesn't always really feel like 100% paralysis though... sometimes it's like I bypass paralysis altogether and just leave... but of course I had just been sleeping for a while.
Holy reality,
no worries on the whole french accent thing. I've had the same thing happen to me several times with differnt accents. For me it usually comes out as an English, Australian, or Irish accent (funny cause I'm more African American than anything else). I'm not exactly sure why it happens but it's just fun for me to hear my words or thoughts in what seems to be someone elses voice.
As far as the whole thing about awarness is concerned. I think Dragen's on the right track. I think the most important thing to do in situations like yours is to just chill out and enjoy being in that state. I think you'll find it's easier to "control" the hypnagogic state once you stop trying to control it. I tend to think of being aware as simply watching what's going on and being attentive to it. I know that whenever I try or focus to hard it tends to wake me up or snap me out of trance, I've got all my best results when I just enjoyed it.
oh yeah, and the numbness thing seems to come a lot easier and all over the body infact, when you've got a good amount of energy flowing. Next time your training, try bouncing your awarness around to differnt parts of your body or try "tapping" your chakras, that seems to work really well for me.[:D]
i feel so close....
i tried again for an hour and i hit a few hypnagogic sessions.. i started hearing king of the hill voices talking to each other, and i focused in on that and stuff... and i got the falling sensation, and i stayed in it for a while, but eventually it broke away, and i'm not sure why becuase i wasn't doing anything differently or focusing too hard...
but at any rate my arms got so extremely heavy that they felt completely paralyzed, yet if i tried to move them, they moved, effortlessly..
i rolled over a bit and got comfortable and tried to reconnect to the voices (hard to do, there's a difference between me making them talk,a nd them talking on their own, and i need them to talk on their own to get into that state) and about 5 seconds later my arms were really heavy again...
but i just can't get all the way there...
does caffeiene affect your ability to project? becuase i just had some recently.
The caffeine addiction.. I have a problem with this. But I assure you, I do very well, even with gallons of caffeine flowing through my body. I can't help wonder if I would do better without, but then again, I could go in to withdrawl (seriously, I do) and be worse off.
You need to find that one out for yourself. Try experimenting with it. Get off the caffeine for a couple days, keep it out of your system and make a final test 2 days later. I would be interested to hear how your tests go!
It sounds like you are making more progress now that you are relaxing more. You may still be "trying too hard" as you described trying to get the "sounds" to come back. Although this was a cool experience, often times you will find that your experiences change quite often, from session to session. Trying to get those sounds back, or other experiences back every time is too much effort.
Just go with the flow. Hang out in the trance state.. let your body go numb. Stop feeling your body. Enjoy the relaxed state you are in. Afterall, it's a great state to be in, especially with all the stress and noise in the world!
Sounds like you are making progress! Way to go!
"Hang out in the trance state."
If I could hang out in the trance state I wouldn't be having any problems...
:/
I can't stay in it.. it's like.. when I hit the hypnagogic state I'm tranced, but I'm not conscious... when I come out of it I'm not tranced....
If I come out of it during the morning though, I can tend to hit a "trance" state so to speak, but I always either enter a dream or project or wake myself up.
It usually isn't that pleasant of a state for me to be in, completely paralyzed, unaware of my surroundings... probably because I'm used to all sorts of horrible sleep paralysis episodes.
(see my new thread in "communications" if you want to know a bit more about that)
So no.. I'm not hitting the trance state for more than a few seconds at a time, and I'm not "conscious" while in it.
I can hit a state where I feel somewhat weird and dissociated but I can move my body just fine and awareness of it never goes away.
For reasons beyond me many people are absolutely insistent on lieing down during practice. The body is so accustomed to sleeping while lieing down because it has been that way EVER SINCE IT BEGAN SLEEPING! If you want to meditate and stay aware and concious, sit up. Stop lieing down! Once that happens the habit of the body is to associate it with "time to go to sleep". I think ANYONE would be suprised at how much they can accomplish if they practice their regular techniques while sitting instead of lieing down. If you lie on your back to practice, 99 times out of 100 you will fall asleep and regret it in the morning. Sitting is the natural state for thought awareness... lieing down is the natural state for thoughts to drift.
The AlphaOmega,
I disagree. I lay down on the bed. On my back. I don't sleep very well (if at all) when lying on my back. I never have, and probably never will. So this position works wonders for me, and i'm sure for a lot of people out there who don't lay on their back. I think you would be surprised how many people sleep on their sides or their stomach at night.
Although Robert Bruce recommends sitting up in a nice recliner with a head rest and pillow under your feet, it really isn't necessary if you can lay down on your bed and not fall asleep.
Also, keep in mind that you WANT your body to fall asleep. It needs to be relaxed, in a sleeping position it's comfortable with.. but NOT a sleeping position your mind is comfortable with.
Personally I think the trance thing varies. For me, I am simply unable to 'clear my mind' of all thought. I think as long as your mind is relaxed, not 'off', but just relaxed, then you're good. I mean how can your mind be both calm AND focused at the same time? Now, having random thoughts interrupting you from whatever exit technique you're focusing on could cause problems but that just takes more willpower and maybe practice to fix.
quote:
Originally posted by The AlphaOmega
For reasons beyond me many people are absolutely insistent on lieing down during practice. The body is so accustomed to sleeping while lieing down because it has been that way EVER SINCE IT BEGAN SLEEPING! If you want to meditate and stay aware and concious, sit up. Stop lieing down! Once that happens the habit of the body is to associate it with "time to go to sleep". I think ANYONE would be suprised at how much they can accomplish if they practice their regular techniques while sitting instead of lieing down. If you lie on your back to practice, 99 times out of 100 you will fall asleep and regret it in the morning. Sitting is the natural state for thought awareness... lieing down is the natural state for thoughts to drift.
well...
First, I don't have a chair I could properly meditate in... without going downstairs, where my dogs are.... and they don't like me just sitting there idly while not petting them... and it's right by the backyard, which they bark loudly in.
If I lock them out, they are just going to bark that much more.
Second... I at first did it sitting in my computer chair (though if I were to trance I'd probably fall out or my head would fall forward and end it becuase i have no head/neck support) but I still got really tired and kept half falling asleep, so much that I tried to take a nap, but mostly failed.
Since then I haven't been getting tired like that.. I mean when I give up on it and get up and do stuff I'm real groggy and uncoordinated but it goes away in about 10 minutes.
So... bed.. chair... same result... I start falling asleep (via the hypnagogic state) and jolt back into consciousness, but cannot stay in that state for the life of me.
and I'm so far convinced that the only way to enter a conscious trance would be to either stay in the hypnagogic state while aware (i've never done this totally voluntarily before, sometimes at night i'll black out then come to and be sort of remote viewing), or stay in it long enough so that when I am abruptly removed from it, my body has already gone to sleep.
quote:
Personally I think the trance thing varies. For me, I am simply unable to 'clear my mind' of all thought. I think as long as your mind is relaxed, not 'off', but just relaxed, then you're good. I mean how can your mind be both calm AND focused at the same time? Now, having random thoughts interrupting you from whatever exit technique you're focusing on could cause problems but that just takes more willpower and maybe practice to fix.
I've found that it's quite possible to be calm AND focused while in a trance state, though I won't say that this is an easy thing to do. I think the difficulty comes beacuse most poeple are so worried about being calm and relaxed that they cease to be either. I know for myself things always get screwed up when I start reminding myself what to do, like " ok, don't forget to stay realxed...and don't get to excited if something starts to happen..oh and don't forget to monitor your breathing.." things like that always seem to knock me out of trance a bit. Now I'd say that having random thoughts interupting you while your in a trance would be a good indication of a LACK of focus, and quite often in this sort of thing if your not calm then you've probably got a lot of random thoughts running through your head (e.g. a lack of focus). It might be better to think of being calm and focused as being relaxed and having a quite mind, or at least a less active one.
quote:
The AlphaOmega,
I disagree. I lay down on the bed. On my back. I don't sleep very well (if at all) when lying on my back. I never have, and probably never will. So this position works wonders for me, and i'm sure for a lot of people out there who don't lay on their back. I think you would be surprised how many people sleep on their sides or their stomach at night.
Right on Dragen...if it aint broke don't fix it. I've found it just as easy to trance in one state as much as the other so I totally agree with you.
Whenever I try to meditate during the day and hit a trance, I'll hit this gap in consciousness where I stop thinking, and like, my subconscious starts thinking... I wouldn't quite call it hypnagogic becuase I'm just totally NOT conscious at all, I'm drifting off to sleep.
I stay in this gap for about 1-10 seconds at a time, then sharply come back into normal thinking.
While I'm in the gap I'm not really aware of my body or anything, and thoughts are flowing randomly, but I CANNOT take control of it...
I don't know if this is a trance I'm entering or what, but I can't stay inside it voluntarily, and I can't do anything while inside it.
I'm just... falling asleep. But I never fall aslepe, because I don't stay in there long enough... it makes me really drowsy though and unfocused....
It's like I was trying to visualize a place to hopefully transition into a LD or something just now and I can visualize it, but then I hit the gap and I just loose control of my mind... it's gone... no focus, it's completely beyond my control... whatever happens happens and whatever thoughts flow through my head are unstructured gibberish...
But I can't control it.
What is this state? It doesn't feel hypnagogic... as I've been hypnagogic body asleep mind awake states where I can completely maintain focus..... it's like all I'm doing is drifting off to sleep.
But I mean, how do you put your body to sleep without going through this groggy and hazy unfocused state? Isn't that like, alpha waves coming in or something?
How do I stay focused though? It's impossible.. I can't.. I'm just tired and it's like my conscious shuts off and subconscious starts up, but it doesn't last long enough to fall asleep and dream, it only lasts long enough to disorient me and bring me back into normal thinking.
And I drift in and out and in out, probably about 10 times within the past 20 minutes.. and it just makes me drowsy, but once I'm out of it I'm not drowsy and can think normally.. for a few seconds.... I tried to rope.. it worked fine... until I hit the gap and lost control...
And so... I gave up after spending about 40 minutes sitting in a chair meditating (which keeps me awake but I can't ever get my body to drift off) then I went and laid down and spent an hour drifting in and out of that state.
Accomplishing nothing....
This happens to me almost every time I try to meditate... even if I stay in a chair long enough I'll still start falling asleep and gettying really drowsy... but it's the uncontrolled kind of drowsy, so much different than the one where you can just instantly phase to a dream or step up out of your body.
I even did energy work on my chakras.......
What am I doing wrong, and does anyone else have this problem? I've been going at it for a few weeks like this... and I know what the trance should feel like... and the problem is I think the trance IS that groggy uncontrolled random state I'm slipping in and out of... so... how do I stay in it and GAIN CONTROL... it's like someone else is running my mind and then it randomly jumps back into my control, but then I'm out of "trance" or whatever....