I've got several questions I can't answer for certain myself pertaining to achieving an OBE. :-) Everyone who can answer based off of their own personal experiences, I'd really appreciate it. I'd be happy for multiple replies rather than one, so I can get a better, broader idea.
I have not been able to project after half a year; so if I can get any help It'd make things easier, of course!
When you are using exit methods, is your point of consciousness (which is usually located behind your eyes) actually moving, or are you imagining yourself moving, which eventually triggers the actual OBE? I can imagine rope climbing or rolling or whatever, but at the end of the night, I'm still just lying there in my bed imagining it and my point of consciousness is still behind my eyes. I can create sensations, but not move my point of consciousness.
When you are astrally projecting or experiencing any form of OBE, is it identical to the waking state or more akin to dreaming?
What happens when you reach the moment of projection?
How do you relate your mind to the physical space around you?
At what point do you draw the line between your consciousness and what is just your fleshy, physical body? How much of your mind do you take with you?
Do you maintain awareness of your body throughout meditation or do you eventually attempt to ignore it? Aka - do you keep stimulating your energy body or stop at some point?
---
I'm starting to get really sad and frustrated, so if anyone can answer these questions I can better understand what I am trying to achieve.
Dear Inico,
first of all the practice should be one as natural as possible and one shouldn't follow any systems or place restrictions upon self. It will only get confusing and frustrating with no real progress. The key component is relaxation not effort - ironically the more effort the more failure I can guarantee you this from my own experience.
Secondly, it should be remembered that most projectors probably have never or rarely achieve wake induced projections but fall asleep and for some reason happen to wake up in the right state of consciousness and opportunistically use this to project.
The difficulty with the OBEs is that they can be described but not adequately taught not even to oneself. One can only rely on one's own experience.
The state of consciousness during OBE is one that is comparable to waking consciousness. However one can daydream (mental projection) while in the OBE-state like one can daydream while in the physical body. So the dream-body is always there parallel to the primary bodies like the astral body and physical body.
If you feel frustrated, go back to zero, lie down with no plans or efforts and just try to relax as deeply as possible.
As you relax more and more at some point you will eventually get "loose" and then you can succesfully use focus to move the etheric or astral bodies.
But again - most people don't manage to get loose - they fall asleep for a while, then wake up finding themselves loose and using that momentum to project.
kind regards,
Paul
I appreciate the reply. It makes sense - I've actually realised, for example, how trying to force the experience is usually a block to learning. I am actually most successful when I just start meditation; by lying down, closing my eyes and feeling out.
My biggest stumbling block is the idea of my point of consciousness exiting my head, which I have never found and fish hooks to get a better understanding of.
I feel I get stuck because I don't know what I'm supposed to be feeling. :|
QuoteMy biggest stumbling block is the idea of my point of consciousness exiting my head, which I have never found and fish hooks to get a better understanding of.
Well I usually exit through the forehead and when it happens it is a very physical, non-imagined experience much like launching on water-skis. I would also get a tremendous buzz in one ear like the sound of wind rushing by.
I've also had experiences of full body exits where unlike the forehead exits I would not just be a free floating camera but a body copy resembling the physical one.
kind regards,
Paul
You're trying to hard. Bottom line. You need to let your consciousness drift into almost sleep. Total single-minded focus. This is why I really don't understand how anyone can do the rope method because it keeps your mind too active. I tried for a really long time, following Robert Bruce's directions to the T and never even got close. Then one day I just stopped and tried not trying and it worked.
Much more like a waking state to me.
I can feel myself kind of buzzing and I just begin to rise, then I "push" myself upwards with my will and THEN i roll out.
I don't even do energy work prior to projection anymore because it keeps my mind too stimulated.
I take all of my mind with me.
My whole body exits at once.
Hey personalreality, I've read your posts in the past too. :wink:
I am finding a lot of inspiration in Frank's ideas. What do you think about them?
You've both reminded me I'm trying too hard, that I'm forcing it - and most importantly, that I'll feel the shift when it happens as if it were physical. So I'll know it isn't my imagination!
I'm excited, and if you could indulge my questioning further - what are you feeling to make that experience happen? Do you simply will it? Or is it automatic? These points are key to me because I try various approaches which break my state of mind.
If Frank's Phasing Model is what you've subscribed to, then realize that you're not "moving" or "going" anywhere when you project.
You're simply changing your focus of attention. You'll definitely "feel" a shift though when you change your focus of attention.
You can't really "will" any of this to happen... you just relax and provide the correct triggers. The trigger will depend entirely upon you and what works best for *YOU. :)
In my case, reading the Phasing Resource (http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html ) helped the most to find my trigger, which in this case is using a "rundown" or "noticing".
I hope that helps a bit.
~Ryan :)
The way I achieve what is called an OBE varies. Normally I need to been semi-rested and relaxed. I simply close my eye's and I stop thinking. It is critical for me to stop thinking or nothing happens. Once I am relaxed and my thoughts are turned off normally what happens is that my physical body sensory input ends and I am left with a single point of consciousness.
Normally at this point things come natural. I usually find that I have transitioned to seeing without eyes and simply teleport to a desired location or simply float out of my house and proceed to explore what people call the RTZ. I really don't use exit techniques lately, however when I first started I would instinctively roll out to one side which always seemed to work.
Please understand that I have never mistaken this state for a dream. I know my physical world name and have full waking consciousness. I normally have sight, hearing and sense of touch. Sometimes my consciousness is shared between my physical aspect and my other point of awareness.
I hope this helps :)
Thank you Xanth. :-)
Since Frank seems to have vanished I always look to your posts with a keen eye.
I checked out that very same resource earlier.
I had actually forgotten that I'm not moving anywhere! Shame on me, for having considered myself a fan of Frank and having forgotten something so essential! :roll: It makes a whole lot more sense to me that way, as I find it illogical to have to be in another part of my room to experience something spiritual when my bed will do just fine. Though the logic behind the reason why is different in practice. :-D
While I subscribe to Frank's views, I still entertain a belief that maybe everyone is right in their own way; and all models of consciousness are true. It is simply our physical minds downloading the data which give us different interpretations of the same thing, I suppose.
Reading Frank's work reminds me that my experience this morning was likely a powerful case of Focus 2, as he described a situation I had quite perfectly.
-
To dbmathis, I've heard of the idea of clearing thoughts to project, but then again I've also heard accounts of using one's imagination to induce the projection. It's these contrasting ideas that have confused me! And yet I don't think anyone is any less right about the methodology, but it's still confusing.
Quote from: Inico on May 07, 2010, 17:14:35
To dbmathis, I've heard of the idea of clearing thoughts to project, but then again I've also heard accounts of using one's imagination to induce the projection. It's these contrasting ideas that have confused me! And yet I don't think anyone is any less right about the methodology, but it's still confusing.
if you've subscribed to Frank's model then clearing some of your thoughts to project is "noticing", and using your imagination in a scene is a rundown. They do not contrast at all, it is only because there is confusion on what is actually being done and so they're being put together as opposites when they are two different methods where the only real differentiation is the amount of active visualization involved. You can theoretically notice in a rundown, thus "clearing thoughts to project" as well as "using one's imagination to induce a projection", at the exact same time.
QuoteTo dbmathis, I've heard of the idea of clearing thoughts to project, but then again I've also heard accounts of using ones imagination to induce the projection. It's these contrasting ideas that have confused me! And yet I don't think anyone is any less right about the methodology, but it's still confusing.
The more you think about it the less results you will have based on my experience. You have to understand that some are better than others at describing in "words" what is actually going on. What do they actually mean by imagination? It's hard to know. Perhaps they meant fill their mind with random images that have no association with "thought"? My suggestion to you is to not dwell so much on "words" and use your intuition more. Remember that sometimes what you read is not what the writer meant.
When repeating a mantra, imagining an image or remembering the taste of an award winning BBQ I might conclude that it was precisely those actions that caused the altered state of consciousness. Then on the other hand all of the actions lead to a cessation of incessant thought. Stop thinking about things and let your mind go blank. It's hard to do I know. See what happens. Don't expect anything because that's thinking again and nothing will happen. Stop thinking.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: dbmathis on May 07, 2010, 17:59:29
The more you think about it the less results you will have based on my experience. You have to understand that some are better than others at describing in "words" what is actually going on. What do they actually mean by imagination? It's hard to know. Perhaps they meant fill their mind with random images that have no association with "thought"? My suggestion to you is to not dwell so much on "words" and use your intuition more. Remember that sometimes what you read is not what the writer meant.
When repeating a mantra, imagining an image or remembering the taste of an award winning BBQ I might conclude that it was precisely those actions that caused the altered state of consciousness. Then on the other hand all of the actions lead to a cessation of incessant thought. Stop thinking about things and let your mind go blank. It's hard to do I know. See what happens. Don't expect anything because that's thinking again and nothing will happen. Stop thinking.
I hope this helps.
why is it so wrong to want to understand what is actually being done?
Quote from: soli on May 07, 2010, 17:42:17
if you've subscribed to Frank's model then clearing your thoughts to project is "noticing", and using your imagination in a scene is a rundown. They do not contrast at all, it is only because there is confusion on what is actually being done and so they're being put together as opposites when they are two different methods where the only real differentiation is the amount of active visualization involved. You can theoretically notice in a rundown, thus "clearing thoughts to project" as well as "using one's imagination to induce a projection", at the exact same time.
That is half true.
You don't want to silence *every* thought you have... it's not necessary.
You simply want to silence the "surface thoughts". These are described as your "inner monologue".
"Noticing" is simply an exercise we do to remove awareness of our physical body.
Quote from: Xanth on May 07, 2010, 18:48:18
That is half true.
You don't want to silence *every* thought you have... it's not necessary.
You simply want to silence the "surface thoughts". These are described as your "inner monologue".
"Noticing" is simply an exercise we do to remove awareness of our physical body.
How can you silence every thought you have when you're not given conscious awareness of them to silence? Never did I say every as I was only quoting to draw a comparison even if the statements were not entirely accurate to the terminology given >.>
Quote from: soli on May 07, 2010, 18:51:55
How can you silence every thought you have when you're not given conscious awareness of them to silence?
I think you're seriously over complicating things. :)
As I said, the point isn't to silence *every* thought.
What I mean is, your goal isn't to keep a quiet mind... just to quiet the surface thoughts.
~Ryan
What Xanth says makes sense, as I know that there is a difference between surface thoughts and the dialogue of feeling. I suppose surface thoughts, to me, are hearing myself try to speak to myself and getting derailed into thinking about my day.
Quote from: Xanth on May 07, 2010, 18:54:57
I think you're seriously over complicating things. :)
As I said, the point isn't to silence *every* thought.
What I mean is, your goal isn't to keep a quiet mind... just to quiet the surface thoughts.
~Ryan
not really, I completely agree with you, I'm just wondering where I said every thought <.< I edited it to make you happy
Quotewhy is it so wrong to want to understand what is actually being done?
It's not wrong to want to understand. However you will never understand until you get there. Learn first, understand later. For example I learn to write code regularly. Then I get experience writing code which is when understanding in introduced. Learning and experiencing are two very different things and more often learning comes before understanding.
Another example would be me telling you all about learning how to ride a skateboard. I can tell you all day how to do it and conceptually you might think you have it. Once you get on the skateboard and bust your butt, then you understand.
Quote from: dbmathis on May 07, 2010, 19:00:53
It's not wrong to want to understand. However you will never understand until you get there. Learn first, understand later. For example I learn to write code regularly. Then I get experience writing code which is when understanding in introduced. Learning and experiencing are two very different things and more often learning comes before understanding.
What if I'm only trying to understand in between periods of learning to help with my ability to learn?
It's damned impossible to silence all thought in one's head. When my mind wandered, I found the worst thing you could do was focus on the fact that you just let your mind wander, thus thought crept in! :lol:
Just move on, that worked for me. Sometimes I simply counted. Yep, counted. And when I noticed that I lost track of what number I was on, that caused me to be more aware and I would start over. Not saying it will work for you, but just throwing out other possible avenues.
I think people are also taking this absence of thought too seriously :). When you clear thoughts more thoughts will creep in and the trick is to observe the thoughts without becoming attached to them. You will be observing your mind thinking from a separate awareness. Do you see where this is going?
I agree with what dbmathis is saying, of course. I'll use my own analogy here of learning to ride a bicycle by reading about it - but you'll need to crash and burn most likely first.
However, what I do think I can get help with is how to learn to get onto the bike, so I can at least begin crashing and burning. :-P
I've made some sweet progress over the months and I know I will achieve my objective eventually. At worst, I'll die one day of natural causes or whatever, then I'll have reached Focus 3 regardless.
I'd like to ask you fellows though - how did achieving your first OBE affect your life? When I thought I had an OBE this morning (it was just Focus 2, dreaming of projecting), I felt like the world took on a whole new meaning. It was confirmation of what I believed.
I'm looking forward to getting a genuine case of validation, though.
Are you still discovering new things? I can't imagine being awake being any fun in comparison to the adventure of the OBEs I've read about.
I can say that having these experiences has completely opened up many new and interesting possibilities for me. I am no longer trapped within beliefs, which is one of the most liberating feelings I have ever had to date.
I would like for you to at least consider seriously why you think you are on Earth as a human. :) There is a very real reason why we are here experiencing this life and I think it might be for spiritual growth. This experience as being a human joke may actually be helping us all to grow and is every bit as interesting as other states of consciousness.
At worst, I'll die one day of natural causes or whatever, then I'll have reached Focus 3 <-- Very good!
Quote from: Inico on May 07, 2010, 19:07:03
I agree with what dbmathis is saying, of course. I'll use my own analogy here of learning to ride a bicycle by reading about it - but you'll need to crash and burn most likely first.
However, what I do think I can get help with is how to learn to get onto the bike, so I can at least begin crashing and burning. :-P
I've made some sweet progress over the months and I know I will achieve my objective eventually. At worst, I'll die one day of natural causes or whatever, then I'll have reached Focus 3 regardless.
I'd like to ask you fellows though - how did achieving your first OBE affect your life? When I thought I had an OBE this morning (it was just Focus 2, dreaming of projecting), I felt like the world took on a whole new meaning. It was confirmation of what I believed.
I'm looking forward to getting a genuine case of validation, though.
Are you still discovering new things? I can't imagine being awake being any fun in comparison to the adventure of the OBEs I've read about.
I know that experience is the best teacher of course as all knowledge is gained initially from experience, yet why can experience not be passed on? Being awake in the physical is preparing for the next attempt to xxxx to me. I don't really think we are in a state of disagreeance on experience. In my opinion f1 is to prepare us for f3 so we don't get stuck in belief constructs. Also, your case of validation will be when you choose to believe.
Funny you should describe my view of life as a human joke - sometimes it isn't far from the truth. However, I'm not foolish enough to think I'm here for no reason. There are times that I've considered taking my own life, but not out of depression, but rather out of the feeling of pointlessness to life. Yet, some readings about OBE experiences say that we choose our parents and our life, and that means I chose this life for myself - so I'd probably give myself a right kick if I took my life only to discover I missed the point of it all.
Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure that learning about the universe is a part of what defines me. It's the same reason I want to see the world - adventure, experience!
I really do wonder how I ended up in Focus 1, though. Where was I before that?
edit - clicked the wrong reply button lol
. - how do I achieve more reply buttons
Quote from: zareste on May 07, 2010, 19:20:31
edit - clicked the wrong reply button lol
That sounds damn right scary.
Quote from: dbmathis on May 07, 2010, 19:03:00
Another example would be me telling you all about learning how to ride a skateboard. I can tell you all day how to do it and conceptually you might think you have it. Once you get on the skateboard and bust your butt, then you understand.
Yes but you won't bust your butt continually, you'll probably bust your butt, think about and reflect on what you did wrong, then go at it again.
BTW - When I said "this experience as being a human joke" I hope you realize that that was all inclusive. Meanng, I was talking about the entire human experience, everyone included. :)
Quote from: dbmathis on May 07, 2010, 19:32:12
BTW - When I said "this experience as being a human joke" I hope you realize that that was all inclusive. Meanng, I was talking about the entire human experience, everyone included. :)
Oh yes, don't worry. :-D That's what I meant, too.
I find it ridiculous how we've got billions of people bumping around without the slightest idea to the most important questions in the universe a human can ask.
With how fast this thread has been updated... you guys should just go chat on the IRC channel. LOL
~Ryan :)
It's called the collective ego or the collective total identification with thought. I have heard Robert Bruce speak about Eckhart Tolle and turning off thinking as being a prerequisite for attempting OBEs and I understand why after reading his books. I suggest reading all of Eckhart Tolle's books.
I haven't heard of Eckhart Tolle; the latest book I'm reading is Robert Monroe's first one, due to Frank being inspired by him.
However, I will check out this author you recommend, as I deem your opinion valuable. :wink:
So, there is a chat function?
Quote from: Inico on May 07, 2010, 20:11:28
I haven't heard of Eckhart Tolle; the latest book I'm reading is Robert Monroe's first one, due to Frank being inspired by him.
However, I will check out this author you recommend, as I deem your opinion valuable. :wink:
So, there is a chat function?
its an irc channel you can access with a client or via web gui, check out Xanth's signature
Yeah, there is a link in Xanth's signature on here. Just click it and join the chat.
If you like Monroe you should also read My Big TOE by Thomas Campbell. He was one of the founders of the Monroe institute and has taken on his on research. Additionally, I have read all of the Monroe books too and the second book "Far Journeys" is very good and in my opinion better then the first and the last book "Ultimate Journey" is out of this world. After I read Ultimate Journey, I seriously wanted to have another child. :).
What do you guys think about the Monroe Institute's Hemi-Sync concept?
Also, I've read somewhere here that death is like transferring our current state of mind into the afterlife; but I think that our waking consciousness is an altered state of mind in itself. What makes my current perception more 'real' than when I would be intoxicated in some fashion? Is there a natural state of mind?
Last night I attempted an emphasis on 'noticing', and I got heavy vibration feelings on my head - usually I feel them below the waist, the legs and feet, mostly, and my arms. It wasn't the first time that I catch glimpses of things; darting, what could be a scene that lasts under a second.
Quote from: Inico on May 08, 2010, 09:33:26
Also, I've read somewhere here that death is like transferring our current state of mind into the afterlife; but I think that our waking consciousness is an altered state of mind in itself. What makes my current perception more 'real' than when I would be intoxicated in some fashion? Is there a natural state of mind?
This is very true, consider that there is no "altered" state of mind and that the state of mind is just like a frequency that operates on a certain wave length. There is no natural state of mind, simply there is a frequency that most operate at while in f1 which is a misconception of being in a natural state of mind. To me the hemi-sync concept is almost like a rundown as far as methodology goes, thought is displayed to your subconscious in order for it to react and allow yourself to be in that same brain wave state.
Ah, wonderful. That sounds a lot more sensible. So you'd say it's like our mind adapting to the experience in question?
Quote from: Inico on May 08, 2010, 11:03:55
Ah, wonderful. That sounds a lot more sensible. So you'd say it's like our mind adapting to the experience in question?
If you mean like when we're drugged, our perception only changes because what is perceived is being translated differently by the brain than it usually does thus it perceives differently. Say you see a bottle, we're going to say the brain translates the light shown to the eyes as 011101, where as without drugs the brain would translate the light as 100101, 011101 !=100101 so a different image would be perceived to yourself. As it goes like light -> eyes -> translation into thought by brain -> thought is viewed by self. Does the drug also change the frequency at which the brain is operating at? Would have to do tests as I don't know :P
So what is the relation between brain waves and the self?
Quote from: Inico on May 08, 2010, 11:22:38
So what is the relation between brain waves and the self?
the frequency is related to the physical activity being done by self, It probably be better if I just posted links as I don't have the information so collectively organized in memory. Found this >.> http://www.web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm (http://www.web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm) and this <.< http://www.brainandhealth.com/Brain-Waves.html (http://www.brainandhealth.com/Brain-Waves.html), a googling we go..
I got my hands on some Eckhart Tolle stuff - half an hour in and it's already given me some profound insight. Even on some of my own problems, especially related to blocks I encounter as regards attaining an OBE. He speaks about living in the Now - considering the Now as an obstacle.
How we fail to see the vertical dimension to life, rather than the horizontal one of time. Vertical dimension being depth of the Now. I imagine OBE's are related to the depth of the vertical rather than the horizontal idea of time! That explains a lot. Our relationship to this moment.
And thank you soli for those links, I will get to them in due course.
I was thinking about the rule of like attracting like - because I suddenly find myself out of touch with a range of people because of my shifting view of the world. Surely enough, the rule of like attracting like finds me in this community now.
Eckhart Tolle is unoriginal...sorry I work in a bookstore and sell his books...
Quote from: personalreality on May 08, 2010, 13:10:01
Eckhart Tolle is unoriginal...sorry I work in a bookstore and sell his books...
Original or not, I don't think it really matters if the material can be helpful.
Is what you're saying is that the reasoning he's got is commonplace; or that you think there are better sources of this same stream of information I should use?
QuoteEckhart Tolle is unoriginal...sorry I work in a bookstore and sell his books...
I agree, he simply pulls together ideas from many different sources and makes a point which is basically that ego creates unhappiness in his opinion. :). The way the unoriginal is presented however is unique in his own way. Some like it some don't.
Inico, only you can know if the book is good by reading it. Many have said the same thing as him as he himself points out :)
Well, what I've come across so far, in practical terms, is to enjoy the present moment rather than worry about past and future! And to accept it rather than consider it an obstacle. I think that's pretty logical. :wink:
Any other recommendations anyone wishes to share with me? I'm happy to learn.