I was wondering if Classic OBE and Phasing are just 2 different paths to the same destination. Or if they are different kind of experiences.
I've had more than 100 LD's that I personally don't consider AP (Xanth does). I've also had one classic OBE. First came the vibrations and the buzzing then i hovered out of my body. It was completely different from a dream. If some of those high-lucidity LD's I've had were actually AP then Classic OBE and AP is 2 separate things in my view.
Can someone who have experienced both Classic OBE and AP by Phasing comment on this?
Buhlman can.
He only considers an OBE as a state where you have an Out-of-Body-Experience, you go out of body. Read this Newsletters of his on lucid dreams -> http://www.astralinfo.org/newslettermar2003.htm (http://www.astralinfo.org/newslettermar2003.htm)
He tells you how to turn an LD into a full OBE in that Newsletter:
"Awareness now!"
Buhlman.
The real deal.
Not some never proven crap Franky phasing mumbo jumbo, where you never are IN your body, so you can never go OUT of it.
Lucid Dream: You KNOW you're dreaming, any further distinction is more or less subjective interpretation... upgrade to AP/OBE if you are fully conscious with cognitive function intact.
Phasing: Perception of separation from body isn't noticed, smoother transition generally... usually induced consciously.
Classic OBE: Perception of separation from body is noticed and you'll get a range of sensory input during transition... usually indirect/spontaneous.
OBE/AP: More or less the same thing... people differentiate based on where you end up (Here-Now/RTZ/Etheric vs. Astral Plane/Fantasy Land) but I see them as synonymous.
Classic OBE you can firstly stick around the etheric level and inspect the local area where you live, staying close to the physical but away from your body, walking through walls etc.. It is interesting because things are not quite what you expect there is what has been termed 'fluctuations of reality'. Usually, if I choose to do this, it is not long before I will be caught up by a 'wind' and enter into either the tunnel or the astral levels.
Cheers, djed :-)
both are the same, along with numerous other types of "metaphysical journeying".
the destination and the interpretation change with the culture that produces it.
nothing else is different.
if phasing/obe doesn't work for you, try active imagination, shamanic journeying, remote viewing, etc. etc. etc.
it's silly to try and separate them and quite honestly a hindrance to one's development of such skills.
Wow... interesting differences of opinion.
I have experienced Lucid Dreams and usually end up waking in SP, whereupon I then enter AP. I have done so, many times. I distinguish between them as different levels of focus. Nothing goes anywhere. Nothing leaves the body. Nothing can possess you.
1st Phase is different. I call it 1st phase because it's what I seemed to practice more when I was younger. I sort of expelled APing or 2nd Phase as I call it.
Phasing is probably the same thing as lucid dreaming and AP.
Purely by experience and of teaching the traditional method of inducing SP/VS it seems that the floaty 1st phase requires deep state sleep paralysis. This I have come to learn.
I feel like there is a celebrity in my midst.
I thoroughly enjoyed your method bedeekin.
lol... celebrity... hardly. cheers mate. Glad it helped though.
I'm liking your straight no bullpoo manner by the way.
Quote from: WASD on April 23, 2011, 17:41:53
I was wondering if Classic OBE and Phasing are just 2 different paths to the same destination. Or if they are different kind of experiences.
This would be my opinion.
Two sides up the same mountain.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 23, 2011, 22:32:10
Nothing goes anywhere. Nothing leaves the body.
According to Buhlman, you have to go
inward in order to go out of body. And it's not inward in the 3 dimensional physical space:
The Buhlman method (http://www.astralinfo.org/effectivemindset.htm), move inward to get out of body (OBE).
"
Awareness Now!"
Read also this Buhlman Newsletter ->
Moving inward & melting hands (http://www.astralinfo.org/newslettermar2003.htm)
"
This also explains why your immediate surrounding will seem to dissolve away when you demand "Awareness Now
". This focused demand will initiate an inner shift of consciousness. In reality you are shifting your awareness inward, within yourself, within the universe that is you. As your awareness increases your consciousness will automatically move or shift to a higher or finer vibrational state. As this occurs your surroundings will appear to change, dissolve and disappear until a new reality becomes manifest around you. Stay calm and centered, you have just experienced the wonder of inner dimensional travel and a great mystery of the universe is unveiled."
Read that!
"...
inner dimensional travel..."
And also this Buhlman advice: How to see your physical body by
moving away from it:
"
How can I observe my own body during an OBE?For many one of the most fascinating things to do during an OBE is to observe your own or a loved ones "physical
" body. This can be more challenging then it may appear. First move away from your body about ten feet and center yourself with an awareness demand such as, "Clarity Now or Awareness Now.
" When attempting this it is important to remain emotionally centered and unattached to the form you are observing for there is an inherent tendency to "snap back
" to the body if you identify with it. The key to this kind of observation is to become a completely dispassionate observer and ask for clarity when ever your perception is less then ideal."
You move!
"
...move away from your body about ten feet..."
Move!
MOOOOOOVE!!!¤"#%"¤%%&%/!!!!!
move
out-of-body
!
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 24, 2011, 05:56:52
According to Buhlman, you have to go inward in order to go out of body. And it's not inward in the 3 dimensional physical space:
The Buhlman method (http://www.astralinfo.org/effectivemindset.htm), move inward to get out of body (OBE)!
"inward" is a term used to describe physical movement.
Most people, including Buhlman, don't usually understand this... but you, literally, can't use any physical descriptions to denote 'where' one goes when they project.
OUT of body
Move WITHIN
PROJECT your consciousness
They're all terms that describe physical dimensions of movement.
Suffice to say... when you "project", your consciousness isn't in this physical reality frame. That's really all one can say.
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2011, 00:07:41
This would be my opinion.
Two sides up the same mountain.
I dont know, I kinda disagree with the 2 of ya. Im gonna try and explain what I mean...
I believe an OBE is in a class all on its own. To me, For me to have an Obe I lay in my bed, get the vibrations and leave my body. When I leave my body I actually sit up in bed and turn around and see my physical body sleeping. I usually stay in real time for 15 sec or so before things start to go into the astral world. Sometimes, if I stay by my physical body, like right nxt to it/dont leave my bedroom, then il stay in real time longer but once I get some distance from my (physical) body I immediately go into the astral world. -Dont know why that is??
Now there's things I can do to stay in real time but thats a different topic-
Before I go on, I wanna bust a myth real quick. When I first exit my body, im in real time. Now, I have 2 cats and they both cuddle at the bottom of my bed and sleep with me. After my exit I used to always start dancin and doing everything I could to get their attention but they CANT see me. -NO MATTER WHAT i did. So as far as I know, animals cant see you. -or at least my cats cant, maybe their slow though.
Now as far as lucid dreams go- ive been there before as well, but I consider this just a dream that I know im dreaming. I think if your dreamn, your dreaming. Unless somehow your dreaming and can somehow shoot yourself into the real world etc, Id have to say its just an awesome lucid dream.
-ALSO-
I can stay in the Astral for hours, literally. With full knowledge of everything that happened. Now this is another thing thats completely different about a lucid dream. Once the dream becomes lucid you practically have a countdown till u wake. Complete opposite of an OBE where you control how long you stay.
I think the only way to have an OBE is through the vibrations. If your dreamn -your dreamn. I question the phasing thing, dont really see how you can compare it to an OBE at all. To me, The vibrations mean everything.
Quote from: Tee1234 on April 24, 2011, 16:04:17
To me, The vibrations mean everything.
yeah, vabrations is da shlt.
phasing is just shlt.
Quote from: Tee1234 on April 24, 2011, 16:04:17
I dont know, I kinda disagree with the 2 of ya. Im gonna try and explain what I mean...
I believe an OBE is in a class all on its own. To me, For me to have an Obe I lay in my bed, get the vibrations and leave my body. When I leave my body I actually sit up in bed and turn around and see my physical body sleeping. I usually stay in real time for 15 sec or so before things start to go into the astral world. Sometimes, if I stay by my physical body, like right nxt to it/dont leave my bedroom, then il stay in real time longer but once I get some distance from my (physical) body I immediately go into the astral world. -Dont know why that is??
Yup, that's a pretty powerful experience... to move "out" of your body, then turn around and see your physical shell just lying there.
Although, to me, that's all built around perception... the perception that you're "in" your body to begin with. It's a perception that I don't personally support. :)
QuoteBefore I go on, I wanna bust a myth real quick. When I first exit my body, im in real time. Now, I have 2 cats and they both cuddle at the bottom of my bed and sleep with me. After my exit I used to always start dancin and doing everything I could to get their attention but they CANT see me. -NO MATTER WHAT i did. So as far as I know, animals cant see you. -or at least my cats cant, maybe their slow though.
See, the thing with that is that those might not even be your cats... they might be your representation of your cats. Meaning, subconsciously, you choose whether they can see you or not. It's all part and parcel of the question behind "Is the RTZ a real place directly connected with our physical reality?"
And really... you can probably answer that question a hundred different ways, all of which rely upon experience and belief.
Of which, I have my own answers for. hehe
QuoteNow as far as lucid dreams go- ive been there before as well, but I consider this just a dream that I know im dreaming. I think if your dreamn, your dreaming. Unless somehow your dreaming and can somehow shoot yourself into the real world etc, Id have to say its just an awesome lucid dream.
-ALSO-
I can stay in the Astral for hours, literally. With full knowledge of everything that happened. Now this is another thing thats completely different about a lucid dream. Once the dream becomes lucid you practically have a countdown till u wake. Complete opposite of an OBE where you control how long you stay.
My opinion is that there is only "here" (this physical reality frame) and "there" (one of the infinite number of reality frames that aren't this one).
The place where we dream, lucid dream and astral project, for example, is the "Dream reality frame".
I actually have become quite disliking the terms "dream", "lucid dream" and "astral projection". They're too limiting... and divisive, as you can clearly see from this forum and more to the point, this very thread.
QuoteI think the only way to have an OBE is through the vibrations. If your dreamn -your dreamn. I question the phasing thing, dont really see how you can compare it to an OBE at all. To me, The vibrations mean everything.
To me, they're all the same experience split by perception.
Regardless of the title... there is no vs. It's not a tinkling contest. Neither is phasing and 'classic' SP induction like playstation vs 360 or VHS vs Betamax.
Phasing isn't excrement... definitely not.
I didn't understand phasing when Xanth first mentioned it on AVers forum. I learned that I have experienced it once or twice and that one of my friends uses it to project. We have sat night after night discussing our 'adventures'. To all intent and purpose we are talking about the same destination using slightly different paths.
Quote from: Tee1234 on April 24, 2011, 16:04:17
I dont know, I kinda disagree with the 2 of ya. Im gonna try and explain what I mean...
I believe an OBE is in a class all on its own. To me, For me to have an Obe I lay in my bed, get the vibrations and leave my body. When I leave my body I actually sit up in bed and turn around and see my physical body sleeping. I usually stay in real time for 15 sec or so before things start to go into the astral world. Sometimes, if I stay by my physical body, like right nxt to it/dont leave my bedroom, then il stay in real time longer but once I get some distance from my (physical) body I immediately go into the astral world. -Dont know why that is??
Now there's things I can do to stay in real time but thats a different topic-
Before I go on, I wanna bust a myth real quick. When I first exit my body, im in real time. Now, I have 2 cats and they both cuddle at the bottom of my bed and sleep with me. After my exit I used to always start dancin and doing everything I could to get their attention but they CANT see me. -NO MATTER WHAT i did. So as far as I know, animals cant see you. -or at least my cats cant, maybe their slow though.
Now as far as lucid dreams go- ive been there before as well, but I consider this just a dream that I know im dreaming. I think if your dreamn, your dreaming. Unless somehow your dreaming and can somehow shoot yourself into the real world etc, Id have to say its just an awesome lucid dream.
-ALSO-
I can stay in the Astral for hours, literally. With full knowledge of everything that happened. Now this is another thing thats completely different about a lucid dream. Once the dream becomes lucid you practically have a countdown till u wake. Complete opposite of an OBE where you control how long you stay.
I think the only way to have an OBE is through the vibrations. If your dreamn -your dreamn. I question the phasing thing, dont really see how you can compare it to an OBE at all. To me, The vibrations mean everything.
I know what you mean also.
I assume that when you talk about OBE you are meaning 'real-time' projection... local 1... 1st phase.
I find that Dreams, LDs and aspects of what we call AP are the same thing. Just different entry modalities varying in conscious awareness quality.
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2011, 17:44:29
Yup, that's a pretty powerful experience... to move "out" of your body, then turn around and see your physical shell just lying there.
Although, to me, that's all built around perception... the perception that you're "in" your body to begin with. It's a perception that I don't personally support. :)
You base your opinion on _what_ experience, that "
you're not IN your body to begin with"?
Lucid Dreaming?
The words of the Master of Focus 22?
On what?
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 24, 2011, 17:50:18I find that Dreams, LDs and aspects of what we call AP are the same thing. Just different entry modalities varying in conscious awareness quality.
That puts it best for me. I also like K. Lelands approach to it who also calls it all 'adventures in consciousness'. (I also have my own name for it now, calling it "lucidventures" (or "lucadventures") because I came to the conclusion that the degree of lucidity during the experience is the most important measure, at least for me).
We must also consider that if we enter the realm of thoughts or the metaphysical realm, and everything is intrinsically made of thought, then we must be prepared to accept that even movement and the perception of space there is a thought, i.e. not physically defined. And with thought comes any simulation you may desire (consciously or unconsciously).
We may say we think we think but we must also remember that these distinctions that we make like 1st phase, 2nd phase, or Locale I...II...III etc. may still be just that. Two perceived simulations possibly constructed in our brains from the fact that A) we have an imagination...and B) our subconscious has a good idea of where things are in the physical environment and may construct replicas in an attempt to make sense to the conscious self...
Let's not forget that certain regions of our brain deal with specific functions that influence our cognition. Like the frontal lobe deals with planning, organization, personality, behaviour, emotions, motor skills, memory etc.; the thalamus could also process feedback on sensory information when the body is asleep; the right hemisphere dealing with auditory and visual memory...(random, intuitive, subjective and can help to make wild guesses too!!!) etc. etc. - many illusions can be created!!!
Let's not overlook the fact that the brain is still active when we have these experiences and that we have about 100 billion nerve cells called neurons that communicate with each other!!!!
What I'm trying to say here is that it could all be very much the same thing and it could still be in our heads. The "validations" may still be coincidental and if they are real, then it doesn't mean that we have actually been out of body, there are other explanations like everyone being connected in consciousness or even telepathic links. Cryptomnesia can also play a role in all of this...
But then again, what the hell do I know, right? I've only been projecting since 2008, and, despite a few "validations", I still don't have concrete proof that OOBEs exist in their literal sense...I can't claim to know for sure that there are two distinct categories such as Here-Now and Locale II. I mean...couldn't the distinctions of the Here-Now experience be replicated in the metaphysical realm?
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2011, 17:44:29
Yup, that's a pretty powerful experience... to move "out" of your body, then turn around and see your physical shell just lying there.
Although, to me, that's all built around perception... the perception that you're "in" your body to begin with. It's a perception that I don't personally support. :)
See, the thing with that is that those might not even be your cats... they might be your representation of your cats. Meaning, subconsciously, you choose whether they can see you or not. It's all part and parcel of the question behind "Is the RTZ a real place directly connected with our physical reality?"
And really... you can probably answer that question a hundred different ways, all of which rely upon experience and belief.
Of which, I have my own answers for. hehe
My opinion is that there is only "here" (this physical reality frame) and "there" (one of the infinite number of reality frames that aren't this one).
The place where we dream, lucid dream and astral project, for example, is the "Dream reality frame".
I actually have become quite disliking the terms "dream", "lucid dream" and "astral projection". They're too limiting... and divisive, as you can clearly see from this forum and more to the point, this very thread.
To me, they're all the same experience split by perception.
No.. Let me explain a little better.
As far as where I am when I exit my body Im definitely in real time. Let me explain.. like I said when I exit I see my body..
So heres what I did. My bedroom has a window, and outside the window is a flat roof. Usually when I exit thats where I go through the wall where my window is, and im on my way. But the moment I go through the wall Im in the astral -instantly. Heres how I know.
Ive experimented- I got dice (2di) One night before I went to bed I opened the window and rolled the dice on the roof but didnt look to see what I rolled. The idea was to project that night, see what I rolled then awake and confirm it.
So that night I projected and went out on the roof to check the dice to see what I rolled and when I looked at the dice it had letters where the dots were. lol I knew i was in the astral cause the dice didnt even have the little dots. (There's absolutely no letters on these dice I used, theres dots)
Anyway, I knew everything in the room was the same when I exited, so on another night I experimented again. But this time I rolled the dice right on the side of my bed. I didnt look at em. So that night I projected and looked at the dice. Everything looked normal, the dice said 5 and 1. So I immediately knew - I didnt even stay out, I immediately awoke myself. -And yes it was 5 n 1, it was confirmed. U cant have better confirmation then that.
Ive heard people say not to stay by your body cause you get sckd right back into it, but for me thats not the case. -not at all. I could stand there and watch tv in my room if I wanted, lol.
Once I leave my room, I leave the real world.
Im not sayn thats how it has to be for you cause it doesnt.
Its all about the vibrations for me. You see when my vibrations start there so hardcore that I just wait, let em ride out and when they finish I simply situp with my astral body and im in my bedroom or wherever it is that I am.
But also (((during the vibrations))) I can visualize that im somewhere else and when they end I situp and im at that place. Like, let me give an example- During the vibrations I'll visualize a beach and when the vibrations end i'll sit up and i'll be on a beach. But its not like ocean city or any real place its an astral beach and my physical body is no where in sight. Actually when I first started reading on here about phasing thats what I thought you guys meant. But thats obviously not what you guys mean when you say "phasing".
I dont usually do that much though Id rather just be in the comfort of my own bedroom. But im just sayn maybe its different for you cause you might be doing something different during your vibrations which is placing you right into the astral since you cant see your body. Just a thought.
Anyway for the people that do this "phasing" thing. If you not sure if its an OBE, know this- A real actual OBE you have complete control of how long you stay out, unless obvious reasons that would wake you up. But a lucid dream you wont be able to control it. Maybe you can for a short period of time but for the most part you have a time limit. Ive read on here somebody said they rub their hands together and blow on them or something like that to keep from wakening but in an obe you dont have to do any method. Your there till you wanna wake or till your body naturally wants to wake up.
Its hard to debate this (phasing) thing cause everyones different and only you know what you have has just experienced. -but that time limit thing seems like pretty good evidence to me that "phasing" and obe are not the same thing.
But really, when it comes to this sht I have no idea where the boundaries lie.
QuoteOnce I leave my room, I leave the real world.
This is very typical. You can interpret this in a number of ways. You have either gone from the RTZ into the astral...OR...when we have such experiences we are unconsciously creating constructs every time, meaning not the real thing.
The immediate vicinity can often be accurate as the sensation of moving away from the body may prompt the brain to produce something that will make sense or that ties in with your separation decision. A construct from expectation. All the while it may not know that you are conscious of inducing what you call an OOBE.
The further away you go from the "expectation" construct which may display a few anomalies anyway, the more the neurons feel like they can "relax" become more loose in their communication and produce more nonsensical environments as by now they may be aware that the conscious self isn't necessarily expecting the rules that apply in waking life... not so strictly anyway. Perhaps the brain allows this to happens because it is aware that the conscious self will still retain its sanity. It is very much like one has entered a lucid dream from a 'waking state' of mind.
Did you know that if all the neural connections between your brain cells were laid out end to end they could reach to the moon and back? and the cells are more numerous than all the stars that we see in the universe. Think about that. Our brains are supercomputers which constantly develop if we look after ourselves. It also grew itself which is amazing!
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 24, 2011, 18:07:59
You base your opinion on _what_ experience, that "you're not IN your body to begin with"?
Lucid Dreaming?
The words of the Master of Focus 22?
On what?
I base them entirely upon my own experiences with Phasing and Lucid Dreaming.
My direct experiences have proven to me that we're not in our bodies to begin with.
I'm sorry that my experiences completely contradict those that you're following of Moen and/or Buhlman, but I can only call it as "I" see it... but you're in absolutely no obligation to believe me. What I DO ASK of you, and have asked you multiple times, is that you have your own experiences and try to confirm or deny it yourself. Don't rely on Frank, Moen, Buhlman, Campbell or ANYONE else. Only you can determine this for yourself.
I know you can do it, Pauli... I know you can, you just need to put in the time and effort.
Absolutely. It is this pre-empting or opinion of what you think based on others experiences that leads to misunderstandings.
It seems that most 'non-published' practitioners hold a more common sense or even pragmatic view of AP its surrounding phenomena. You must ask why.
Tee1234,
Perhaps this article I wrote for my website would make my ideas on the "RTZ" more clear. :)
http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/2011/02/22/what-is-the-rtz-focus-1-projection/
"I think that the real time zone is a collective, non-physical environment, much like you'd find in Focus 3 oC, it is being created and sustained by the collective conscious minds of the beings who inhabit this physical reality (aka us physical people)."
I can roll with that.
The foundation of my early experiences were primarily RTZ... which you know I call 1st Phase.
this all sounds so complicated.
you just unplug from physical sensory input. enough said.
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2011, 20:46:44
Tee1234,
Perhaps this article I wrote for my website would make my ideas on the "RTZ" more clear. :)
http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/2011/02/22/what-is-the-rtz-focus-1-projection/
Wow, I can see how you took that the wrong way, -my bad. When I said I exit my body and im in "real time", I didnt mean it the way its coin phrased there.
Had no idea you guys had real time coin phrased. -lol
Heres what I meant.- When I exit my body im actually in my room. Its real. Not a hologram, hullucination, any type of mindbender, its real. Its like this every time I do it, which is alot. There's no question where I am, like I said I could watch tv if I wanted. I mean that dice thing I did was a sure thing for me.
Also I said- When I leave my room I leave real time. And with real time I obviously meant where my actual bedroom is where my physical body is. ya see-
Thats why I did that dice experiment. get it?
The farther I move away from my body it starts to change though. Its almost like I have a 10-15ft radious from my body before I cross over.
I go to the Astral. I know when im there its unmistakable. Its not hard, I dont even question it I always know where i am.
See here it is from my view. I do this almost everynight. Heres how it goes for me..
EXAMPLE: Vibrations come, I exit my body. Im in my room watching myself sleep.
Say Beavis n Butthead is on tv while im going to sleep -I can finish watching it when I exit my body. I can float in front of the tv and watch the rest of the episode. -Guys, thats an actual obe, if anybody cant do something like that, then Id question if your actually having an obe.
Im curious, after reading some of these threads seems like alot of people our mistaken dreaming for obes.
Xanth, you understand what im saying though. I have no doubt that when I first exit my body im in my actual bedroom. Im actually staring at myself sleeping -its me. Then I go do whatever, wherever I want. No doubt its all real -no doubt.
Since were talking about this though, how is it for you? Tell me step by step. Dont be afraid to get down n dirty. Start from the vibrations.. send me a message if ya want instead.
Quote from: Summerlander on April 24, 2011, 19:35:06
This is very typical. You can interpret this in a number of ways. You have either gone from the RTZ into the astral...OR...when we have such experiences we are unconsciously creating constructs every time, meaning not the real thing.
The immediate vicinity can often be accurate as the sensation of moving away from the body may prompt the brain to produce something that will make sense or that ties in with your separation decision. A construct from expectation. All the while it may not know that you are conscious of inducing what you call an OOBE.
The further away you go from the "expectation" construct which may display a few anomalies anyway, the more the neurons feel like they can "relax" become more loose in their communication and produce more nonsensical environments as by now they may be aware that the conscious self isn't necessarily expecting the rules that apply in waking life... not so strictly anyway. Perhaps the brain allows this to happens because it is aware that the conscious self will still retain its sanity. It is very much like one has entered a lucid dream from a 'waking state' of mind.
Did you know that if all the neural connections between your brain cells were laid out end to end they could reach to the moon and back? and the cells are more numerous than all the stars that we see in the universe. Think about that. Our brains are supercomputers which constantly develop if we look after ourselves. It also grew itself which is amazing!
..Bro, I dont even know what your talking about.
Tee, Hi, I have had many OOBE, classic, starting in the bedroom hovering over my body, then sometimes walking outside, going down the road seeing people.
Or other times I would just dive up through the roof and I am in the astral flying over beautiful countryside going to other cities.
Sometimes I have experienced hypnogogic sounds, vibrations so powerful they are, at the same time, painful and pleasurable. Many times I have no vibrations.
I don't know why this is. I have read that the vibes are there always but so fast that we don't perceive them.
One of my theories is that the vibrations are caused by the unblocking of our chakras (energy centers) and as we get clearer of these obstacles we dont get vibrations.
If someone can verify this or knows who has written on this explaining this phenomena I would be interested.
Cheers, djed :-)
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2011, 20:46:44
Tee1234,
Perhaps this article I wrote for my website would make my ideas on the "RTZ" more clear. :)
http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/2011/02/22/what-is-the-rtz-focus-1-projection/
This is a more feasible explanation of RTZ projections. It could still be metaphysical environments, accurate ones...and even the information that we
definitely couldn't possibly have beforehand might have been acquired due to the possibility that we are the same consciousness on another level. This theory states that RTZ is an accurate simulation of the physical realm manifested by all of us.
Perhaps it is the final version of the idea before it collapses into reality as it also conveys time and the time can resemble waking life time. If you imagine a spectrum going from a 'loose' (possibly even abstract) archetypal reality which can manifest in so many different ways to a settled physical reality, the RTZ business would be the indigo before the violet.
In other words, if you prefer this terminology, RTZ is the ethereal realm that sits between the physical and the astral. But don't visualise this as though they are sheets of paper stacked on one another. It's about consciousness...not physical things.
Quote from: Tee1234 on April 24, 2011, 23:49:44
..Bro, I dont even know what your talking about.
What don't you understand about my quote and perhaps I can clarify.
Quote from: Xanth on April 24, 2011, 20:19:59
I base them entirely upon my own experiences with Phasing and Lucid Dreaming.
My direct experiences have proven to me that we're not in our bodies to begin with.
I've now come to page 359 of the Frank PDF compilation (1187 pages in all) and have so far found very few detailed experiences of Frank on his own. And at times I feel _really_ provoked by his style of writing!
Have you
written down anywhere, any of your experiences
which support the theory that we are not IN our bodies, so we can not go OUT of body?
Could you please show us those experiences? Thanks.
Or are u just guessing and leaning on Frank's old posts?
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 25, 2011, 08:03:59
I've now come to page 359 of the Frank PDF compilation (1187 pages in all) and have so far found very few detailed experiences of Frank on his own. And at times I feel _really_ provoked by his style of writing!
Have you written down anywhere, any of your experiences which support the theory that we are not IN our bodies, so we can not go OUT of body?
Could you please show us those experiences? Thanks.
Or are u just guessing and leaning on Frank's old posts?
I'm talking about MY OWN experiences... and you keep talking about Frank.
You obviously don't seem able to grasp the concept of "having your own experiences" and how that is the only goal you should have.
I'm really sorry for you Pauli that you just don't seem to get it.
Nothing leaves because if it did... I would be leaving something 'out' most of the time. Rarely do I actively separate nor conventionally return. I seemingly most of the time seem to focus and/or connect to my 'astral' (hate using that name) while it is in the middle of being somewhere doing something; as though I have suddenly possessed it while it was in the middle of something. This says to me that I am simply directing my focus to something that's already disembodied... in whatever sense.
Also I have come out of OOBEs several times because someone entered the room or called my name... I was theoretically 'away' far from my 'physical'.
Quote from: Xanth on April 25, 2011, 10:00:12
I'm talking about MY OWN experiences.
yes, do you have them anywhere?
In detail?Have you written down anywhere, any of your experiences which supports your theory that we are not IN our bodies, so we can not go OUT of body?
Could you please show us those experiences in text?
Thanks.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 10:16:09
Nothing leaves because if it did... I would be leaving something 'out' most of the time.
Contrary.
Most of the time we _do_ leave something out. For example both RB and Moen talk about it!
RB states that some part of us are in body and some part is out of body. Several other authors support the mind-split idea.
Moen talks about people going OBE,
even when they are awake in physical reality. One example is right at the beginning of his 4th book, where a friend of his is up in F 27 while her in-body part is watching sit-com reruns!
But nothing seems 'out'... per se
Where is 'out' anyway? This is internal not external.
RB also says that we need psychic protection from 'negs'. Who is Moen?
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 25, 2011, 10:52:55
Contrary.
Most of the time we _do_ leave something out. For example both RB and Moen talk about it!
RB states that some part of us are in body and some part is out of body. Several other authors support the mind-split idea.
Moen talks about people going OBE, even when they are awake in physical reality. One example is right at the beginning of his 4th book, where a friend of his is up in F 27 while her in-body part is watching sit-com reruns!
And you're basing this entirely off SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPERIENCES.
How about what YOU think Pauli?
What is Paulieffect's personal, experience-based opinion of it?
As for the specific example you provide, how does it exclusively prove that we're "in" our bodies?
I could just as easily say that it proves that we're not in our bodies at all as it shows the ability to focus our consciousness in many different directions at the same time.
The fact of the matter is that what Robert Bruce, Bruce Moen and many others talk about is only their interpretation of "their" experiences. It doesn't really apply to anyone but themselves. This is the point that I've been trying to get through to you about over the past year... unsuccessfully apparently.
I'd love, one day, to hear Paulieffect talk about his interpretations of HIS OWN experiences without having the need to compare them to anyone else.
Quote from: Xanth on April 25, 2011, 11:22:38
And you're basing this entirely off SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPERIENCES.
How about what YOU think Pauli?
What is Paulieffect's personal, experience-based opinion of it?
As for the specific example you provide, how does it exclusively prove that we're "in" our bodies?
I could just as easily say that it proves that we're not in our bodies at all as it shows the ability to focus our consciousness in many different directions at the same time.
That's _not_ a valid answer.
So...
Your own experiences, to back up your claims!
Please.
---
Most likely you don't have a detailed answer, with experiences of your own and fail to back up your claims.
I think you're falling into the Frank trap of believing but not verifying with experiences of your own. You fail to question if your guru can verify his claims by _any_ experiences of his own to a certain degree, detail and quality!
Moen can!
RB can!
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 25, 2011, 11:44:38
That's _not_ a valid answer.
So...
Your own experiences, to back up your claims!
Please.
---
Most likely you don't have a detailed answer, with experiences of your own and fail to back up your claims.
I think you're falling into the Frank trap of believing but not verifying with experiences of your own. You fail to question if your guru can verify his claims by _any_ experiences of his own to a certain degree, detail and quality!
Moen can!
RB can!
You're still stuck having other people's experiences. The most you can ever hope for, Pauli, is a belief in what your "authors" say. You'll never actually KNOW it for yourself.
I feel like I'm wasting my breath with you, Pauli. :/
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 10:57:09
But nothing seems 'out'... per se
Where is 'out' anyway? This is internal not external.
That's a judgement dependent on worldview, not a fact.
QuoteWho is Moen?
Bruce Moen, a student of Monroe's. Does soul retrievals and teaches how to do it.
It's both. From a more physical perspective within time/space, yes, awareness separates. From a more non-physical perspective, there is nothing to separate from, it all happens within consciousness and there is no "outside". It just depends on your current perspective. Sometimes I gather that not many on this forum have experienced consciousness beyond time/space. It changes everything.
"it all happens within consciousness and there is no "outside""
Exactly.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 15:10:34
"it all happens within consciousness and there is no "outside""
Exactly.
What do u mean? Are you saying you dont actually leave your body??
Cause if thats what you guys are saying im gonna have to strongly disagree.
Do you do the phase thing or the vibration.... jus curious?
Your mind is a giant sphere that covers all of life, made in the image of god
all you are doing is moving your focus from your 5 senses to somewhere else in your greater mind
all of life is within your mind and you never focus outside of that
:NoY:
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 15:10:34
"it all happens within consciousness and there is no "outside""
Exactly.
Based on what experience?
_
Exactly_?
From a none physical perspective.
I was agreeing with stookie.
There is an internalization when it comes to AP.
So if you separate into your 'astral' room... and walk to the door... do you think that this movement corresponds to the real world? In terms of position in space?
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 18:20:56
So if you separate into your 'astral' room... and walk to the door... do you think that this movement corresponds to the real world? In terms of position in space?
I haven't been able to walk, but managed to float out from a random SP, so yes I felt it was in the physical world, initially. Very physical. Not more physical than the physical and not less physical than physical. Just very physical.
Your turn.
You guys are all arguing about something you know bonk all about! LOL! You are all a bunch of idiotas! :-D
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 18:20:56
From a none physical perspective.
"
none physical"??
LMAO! :lol:
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 25, 2011, 18:26:11
I haven't been able to walk, but managed to float out from a random SP, so yes I felt it was in the physical world, initially. Very physical. Not more physical than the physical and not less physical than physical. Just very physical.
Your turn.
Your dreams can feel physical too but they are NOT!!!! Also your brain is very much active when you OOBE and dream! 100 billion neurons each having about 20,000 shared connections! Something for you to think about! :-D
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 25, 2011, 18:26:11
I haven't been able to walk, but managed to float out from a random SP, so yes I felt it was in the physical world, initially. Very physical. Not more physical than the physical and not less physical than physical. Just very physical.
Your turn.
I see...
haha... trick question passed. You float.
We got a 1st Phaser Summerlander!!... we got a 1st phaser!!!
Quote from: Summerlander on April 25, 2011, 18:29:44
LMAO! :lol:
Your dreams can feel physical too but they are NOT!!!! Also your brain is very much active when you OOBE and dream! 100 billion neurons each having about 20,000 shared connections! Something for you to think about! :-D
Why am I able to know when I go LD then? How am I able to distinguish between the two states OBE and LD?
Don't pull my leg by saying that there is a border state where I can't tell one from the other, because I already know that.
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 25, 2011, 18:02:24
Based on what experience?
_Exactly_?
Give it a rest Pauli.
It's been spelled out for you multiple times already.
If you haven't understood it by now, you probably never will.
When I separate into my bedroom... I call this a 1st phase... everything is as it is. The wall is my wall.. the street is my street.. the milkman outside delivering milk across the road is my milkman... 1 mile away my gfriends house I decide to float to is her house... etc
I still however don't think any spiritual etheric body or part of myself is vacant from my body... nothing of substance is watching my milkman deliver milk... nothing has actually left my body.
I have experimented with 1st phase OOBEs for over 25 years now. I have come to certain conclusions at certain times. I would always be certain at the time... but a few things would always bring me down to earth, no matter what new theory I got excited about.
* I have perception of body but it is residual and only evident if I think about it - like reaching out to touch something.
* I am absolutely free of environment. I am less than a ghost.
* I commonly experienced times when I would separate and intend a target. Upon arriving (usually very swiftly) I would be faced with a bizarre point-of-view. Such an experience illustrates this perfectly.
"I thought of my girlfriend and as always I watched my room blur... the tunnel rushing along feeling... the next thing I saw was a massive white tall structure and a black ground that was moving up and down gently - like a black sea. I looked at it for a few seconds wondering why I was there. As I did so I started to move away from the white column. As I got Further away it suddenly dawned on me that it was a white chair leg and the black blur was the floor. My eyes were seemingly at floor height. I lifted myself up and realised I was in a small room. In the corner was a bed with a person in it. I was in my girlfriends caravan..." excerpt from my diary (13/02/93)"
My point of perspective at the beginning of the experience was a millimeter or less away from the chair leg... I interpreted it as a massive white obelisk or wall. When faced with a normal sized chair leg I felt it was hundreds of feet high... pulling back away from the 'wall' allowed me to see it in its entirity. Many similar experiences has led me to come to a conclusion that when in 1st I am a point. A tiny point of focus that can navigate around 3D space.
Whatever it is it is merely a perception of awareness... not a fragment of self. A directed awareness.
Quote from: Xanth on April 25, 2011, 19:28:51
Give it a rest Pauli.
It's been spelled out for you multiple times already.
No, it has not.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 19:42:06
My point of perspective at the beginning of the experience was a millimeter or less away from the chair leg... I interpreted it as a massive white obelisk or wall. When faced with a normal sized chair leg I felt it was hundreds of feet high... pulling back away from the 'wall' allowed me to see it in its entirity. Many similar experiences has led me to come to a conclusion that when in 1st I am a point. A tiny point of focus that can navigate around 3D space.
Whatever it is it is merely a perception of awareness... not a fragment of self. A directed awareness.
I have read several books on OBE and I still don't know what you mean by "1st". In Monroe's book,
Far Journeys, he describes on page 78 (Broadway Edition): "
My physical body appeared to be not one, but two..."
And it is clear for the rest of the book that Monroe moves around in his 3rd body. I haven't got a clue what u mean with "1st", so maybe that should be explained? Can you refer to any book or well known authority who explains this matter?
Secondly, the fact that you feel that you're a point of awareness doesn't mean that you have _
not_ left your body. It doesn't mean either that you are not IN your body either, as there could be several possible interpretations to your experience.
Your experience doesn't even take into account the mind-split effect, which make your model yet another over-simplification in the poor spirit of Frank.
Anyway, thanks for giving me an example of your experience and trying to explain your model to me.
---
I would be a little more convinced if you could point out some "place" where you have discovered that you "are", in order for me to believe your statement that you are not IN your body to begin with, and thus never can go OUT of body.
I would also want a much more firm definition of exactly what you mean by "perception" and "awareness". Really a strict definition, thanks.
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 25, 2011, 18:54:17
Why am I able to know when I go LD then? How am I able to distinguish between the two states OBE and LD?
Don't pull my leg by saying that there is a border state where I can't tell one from the other, because I already know that.
Probably different 'rewiring' of the brain...hence different experiences. When lucid, the left hemisphere could be communicating more with the right hemisphere. Also, the brain waves change. Possible, isn't it?
Relax...I don't know anything and I'm enjoying winding you up. I too have made the distinction between 1st and 2nd phase as Bedeekin calls it. In fact, my first OOBE was seemingly in the physical realm and got catapulted out. I even got to see a little girl I am pretty sure I had never seen with my physical eyes before...later, in the waking state, her existence was confirmed to me.
Locale I...focus 1 oC....RTZ...here-now...1st phase OOBE - a REAL OOBE. I can't see why not. It's feasible if we consider that the human mind might extend beyond the physical body. Someone once said that the soul does not reside in the body but rather the body resides in the realm of the soul...I see sense in that.
QuoteI have read several books on OBE and I still don't know what you mean by "1st". In Monroe's book, Far Journeys, he describes on page 78 (Broadway Edition): "My physical body appeared to be not one, but two..."
And it is clear for the rest of the book that Monroe moves around in his 3rd body. I haven't got a clue what u mean with "1st", so maybe that should be explained? Can you refer to any book or well known authority who explains this matter?
Secondly, the fact that you feel that you're a point of awareness doesn't mean that you have _not_ left your body. It doesn't mean either that you are not IN your body either, as there could be several possible interpretations to your experience.
Your experience doesn't even take into account the mind-split effect, which make your model yet another over-simplification in the poor spirit of Frank.
Anyway, thanks for giving me an example of your experience and trying to explain your model to me.
---
I would be a little more convinced if you could point out some "place" where you have discovered that you "are", in order for me to believe your statement that you are not IN your body to begin with, and thus never can go OUT of body.
I would also want a much more firm definition of exactly what you mean by "perception" and "awareness". Really a strict definition, thanks.
1st phase OOBE = Here-Now projection or what Monroe called Locale I. - Of course you sense that you get out of your body and can seemingly view your physical body from the outside. But just because you sense that you have separated does not really mean that you have. This is what we are trying to say here. The movement or motion experienced could be a metaphor for the will to explore...a shifting of a focus but in reality you are actually everywhere. It's no wonder then that sometimes in this type of projection we seem to mouse-trail as though we are trying to decide and pinpoint where we are going to be and movement is difficult. We are trying to narrow down our perspective to one point of view only which is more familiar to us but the new state is telling us that we are here there and everywhere and probably NOWHERE!!!
By the way, Robert Monroe had a good model, Frank Kepple had a good model...but it doesn't mean that they were right. They are just interpretations. The trouble is labelling especially when it comes to 2nd phase (astral projection). We are labelling a phenomenon which we don't know much about as though it is a three-dimensional world. It may appear to be so at first but soon you realise that there is more than meets the metaphysical eye.
We don't have several bodies, we have a physical body in the waking world and I can assure you that inside this body you will find no other bodies. You won't even find an "I" in there. The metaphysical realm is another frequency of reality which corresponds to a particular state of consciousness. In there you can experience a body similar to the physical if you wish and most of the time you find that it is manifested already from expectation. If you want you can manifest the body of a donkey or no body at all...what you see are all representations of thought...THOUGHT!
The realm of thoughts which I suspect can be experienced from a personal and collective perspective. Something unites us all and...like 1st phase can SEEMINGLY get you info about physical events that you couldn't possibly know at the time...2nd phase can SEEMINGLY provide you with telepathic experiences.
Note that the term OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE does not actually affirm that individuals leave their bodies. It simply means that you EXPERIENCE leaving the body. This is simply an illusion which best translates for us, in sensations that we are accustomed to, the shifting in focuses of consciousness and inter-dimensional travel. If you try the phasing recommended by Xanth, you'll find that you can get to
places without having to separate from the body to find a slightly inaccurate replica of your room. You can literally reach different environments using the hypnagogic imagery. You mind is already shifting its focus away from the awareness of being in the body to acquire the awareness of being somewhere else.
This is why dreams can also be regarded as "out-of-body" experiences because, whilst in the dream, you are not aware of your physical body as your focus is in the dreamworld and you probably have another body there. Nevertheless, you never really left your physical body because you are also there, and, if your physical bladder is full of wee, you may even feel like using the toilet in the dream!! You may even use the toilet in the dream only to find that you are using the wrong body and the stream of wee is never-ending while that full-bladder feeling persists...
Here's another way of looking at what we are trying to explain here. Just like in the waking state we can daydream, we can also remote view. When we daydream we are aware that our minds are both in the physical but also focusing somewhere else. We are also in the metaphysical realm at the same time and probably living out several "dreams" at the same time, most of which we are UNCONSCIOUS to. While daydreaming is possibly a weaker form of 2nd phase, remote viewing would be a weaker form of 1st phase. Well, "weaker" is probably not the word...more like different forms of the same thing. In OOBEs we just tend to incorporate the metaphor of actually making some sort of journey by traversing non-existent space as in 2nd phase (because space in the metaphysical realm is a thought too), and traversing space of what is possibly the physical when we don't have to when we could teleport our focus to where we already are unconsciously.
PHEW...does this waffle make sense to you now? :-D
I have a lot of problems here.
I would like to know how you have arrived at your definitions. Could u give some more details? (continue reading below)
Quote from: Summerlander on April 26, 2011, 04:29:36
1st phase OOBE = Here-Now projection or what Monroe called Locale I.
Ok, let's start with what u call "
1st phase OOBE".
According to Monroe in his later days he divided the reality into various Focus Levels. What u call
1st phase, never got a Focus Level. Focus Levels are primarily
specific brain wave patterns. No brain wave pattern matched an OBE state in what seemed to be the physical world (the physical world itself got labeled C-1 or F 1). But Monroe noticed that the physical, perceived while OBE, was not the same as perceived in-body. The now well known handing out of "
large playing cards" is one such example, while Monroe was OBE, probably from F 10.
The brave RB, dared to postulate that the physical world radiates something which can only be seen while OBE. RB named that state the RTZ.
Theosophists have used the name etheric world for a similar radiation while OBE.
My Note: I think there is a difference between what RB calls the etheric body and what the theosophists call the etheric body. RB's etheric body is more in line with what Monroe called the Second Body. Remember, Monroe went OBE in his Third Body!So...
The theosophists etheric world and the RTZ is a world seen. It's a _world_ seen.
When u use the term "
1st phase" is that the physical world seen from an OBE perspective? Or is it a state of mind? Or is it a state of phase? Does there at all exist a physical world in the 1st phase?
You see... I have a lot of problems getting your worldview together if you claim that we are not IN body, so we can never go OUT of body.
And finally, the Frank question: On what experience do you base your definition "
1st phase"?
Clearly Xanth was without an answer and just mocked me with an indirect personal insult, that he "gives up on me".
So:
1. Experience which backs up your claim.
2. Tell me what the 1st phase is. World image? phase state? state of mind? impression of awareness? - And please, be specific.
Quote from: Summerlander on April 26, 2011, 04:29:36
. . . We are trying to narrow down our perspective to one point of view only which is more familiar to us but the new state is telling us that we are here there and everywhere and probably NOWHERE!!!
This can't be sane at all, being everywhere and nowhere. Let's take an example. If I move my awareness within my body, for example while doing RB's NEW and "
brushing" my right big toe, that's because there are nerve endings in my toe which send signals back to me.
If I go OBE and fly in the sky, but at the same time is not OUT of body, what part of the sky is sending back signals to me that I'm in the sky? Non-physical nerves? You now have to explain what awareness is. In the case of the physical body it's signals sent back and forth.
And again.
On what experiences do you base your claim?
Quote from: Summerlander on April 26, 2011, 04:29:36
We don't have several bodies, we have a physical body in the waking world and I can assure you that inside this body you will find no other bodies.
According to Monroe we have at least a Second and a third Body while OBE.
According to Leland we have multiple bodies, like casual and buddhic, please take your time reading ->
his latest Astral Log (http://www.kurtleland.com/astral-projection-log/2010/189-haiti-after-the-earthquake-buddhic-body)
According to RB, when he discovered the mind-split effect, he was divided between two different bodies.
All those accounts are valid experiences.
You, Xanth & Frank have so far shown no such valid experiences backing your claims.
Quote from: Summerlander on April 26, 2011, 04:29:36
The realm of thoughts which I suspect can be experienced from a personal and collective perspective. Something unites us all and...like 1st phase can SEEMINGLY get you info about physical events that you couldn't possibly know at the time...2nd phase can SEEMINGLY provide you with telepathic experiences.
Stop a moment.
You claim that we have no telepathic ability in the so called "
1st phase". Exactly why?
You claim that we are not OUT of body, so why would the "
1st phase" rob away telepathic ability?
Can't 2 persons in "
1st phase" be telepathic?
And what do you mean with the capital "SEEMINGLY"? No telepathic in "2nd phase" either? This needs something to back your claims. Experiences. Details. Descriptions!
Quote from: Summerlander on April 26, 2011, 04:29:36
Note that the term OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE does not actually affirm that individuals leave their bodies. It simply means that you EXPERIENCE leaving the body. This is simply an illusion which best translates for us, in sensations that we are accustomed to, the shifting in focuses of consciousness and inter-dimensional travel. If you try the phasing recommended by Xanth, you'll find that you can get to places without having to separate from the body to find a slightly inaccurate replica of your room. You can literally reach different environments using the hypnagogic imagery. You mind is already shifting its focus away from the awareness of being in the body to acquire the awareness of being somewhere else.
It's very clear to me that people who do phase/LD, and skip the RTZ, never feels that they leave the physical body in the same way as the OBE/vibrational-state does. But that only means that Buhlman is right: An LD is not an OBE.
See my previous post on links to Buhlman's Newsletters, I won't repeat it here.
Nevertheless, this may make things even more clear, why Frank also thought he never went OUT of body, because he never OBE:d, he only had LDs or similar low energetic (see Buhlman) projections. Frank never did much energy work either, which might have added to the problem of not having RTZ OBEs.
Quote from: Summerlander on April 26, 2011, 04:29:36
This is why dreams can also be regarded as "out-of-body" experiences because, whilst in the dream, you are not aware of your physical body as your focus is in the dreamworld and you probably have another body there. Nevertheless, you never really left your physical body because you are also there, and, if your physical bladder is full of wee, you may even feel like using the toilet in the dream!! You may even use the toilet in the dream only to find that you are using the wrong body and the stream of wee is never-ending while that full-bladder feeling persists...
Now...
This really needs some kind of explanation from you. This bi-location feeling, is it from a mind-split or from a dual awareness?
This astral goer who also feel wee-wee, could as easily be explained with the OBE:er being connected with his physical body somehow, either through Moen's Disk or with any variation of a silver cord, but it is still an out-of-body experience. OUT of body. Not somewhere else or nowhere else.
Please, use valid experiences, not something which can easily be explained with much simpler terms.
Also remember that Monroe went so far out, that when he reached the Aperture, he had lost connection with both his body (which had started to die) and lost connection with his I-There. Because Monroe was out of body!
I don't think you can explain that. Being too out of body to easily go back in again. If that was merely a matter of putting your focus of attention, why did his body start to die and why would his I-There be unable to contact him?
Explain, please.
Really I don't think you can walk around that.
Quote from: Summerlander on April 26, 2011, 04:29:36
Here's another way of looking at what we are trying to explain here. Just like in the waking state we can daydream, we can also remote view. When we daydream we are aware that our minds are both in the physical but also focusing somewhere else. We are also in the metaphysical realm at the same time and probably living out several "dreams" at the same time, most of which we are UNCONSCIOUS to. While daydreaming is possibly a weaker form of 2nd phase, remote viewing would be a weaker form of 1st phase. Well, "weaker" is probably not the word...more like different forms of the same thing. In OOBEs we just tend to incorporate the metaphor of actually making some sort of journey by traversing non-existent space as in 2nd phase (because space in the metaphysical realm is a thought too), and traversing space of what is possibly the physical when we don't have to when we could teleport our focus to where we already are unconsciously.
Well, we may even be split into various Aspects of Self which wanders around from time to time.
Let me tell you the story from Moen's 4th book:
It goes something like this. Moen wants to do partnered exploration with Denise into F 27, but first Moen wants to try it out a little by himself as he feels a bit rusty. He goes to TMI-There and stands in front of the Exploration 27 Crystal. Then suddenly Denise shows up.
Moen: "
Ohh.. Denise?! You are here? So you have laid down in the physical to go here?"
Denise: "
No not at all. In the physical I'm sitting at home, watching boring sit-com re-runs. I'm sure I'll not remember anything of meeting you here, when I rejoin myself in the physical."
---
Some part of Denise has gone out-of-body, to F 27 and TMI-There. That part of Denise will then rejoin herself, the main part of Denise, that is living in the physical, going back in-body.
That's an experience.
Your turn.
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 26, 2011, 09:18:35
I have a lot of problems here.
That's about all I'll agree with you.
Your problem is that you take a published authors word as gospel without ever trying to find out FOR YOURSELF via direct experience if it's true or false. You've jumped directly into believing their words wholeheartedly. Believing... that's the most you can ever get from their words. A BELIEF. You'll never KNOW if what they say is true or not.
You've limited yourself.
You've boxed yourself in to only their experiences.
You've contained your possible outcomes to only that which they've done.
The simple fact is that Summerlander, Bedeekin and everyone else here can answer any question you have... but you'll never understand, because to you, those answers can only ever be a belief.
Xanth, I still request detailed experiences.
Pauli2, you seem to be very biased by RBs and Moens and Monroe's and what not. You have to remember that all these men have their own interpretations of what they have experienced. Also, I'm pretty sure their editors want them to make it more exciting once in a while for the same of promotions and sales.
1st phase is simply a termed that we use over on Astral viewers to describe an OOBE which is seemingly a projection into the physical realm or a simulation of it which could have been possibly manifested by the collective consciousness. It's very distinct in movement, vision and autoscopy is experienced. And yes, in this one, at least from my own experience, we get the sensation of separating from the body. Sometimes strong vibrations are experienced before hand, other times there is only a sense of deep paralysis which may be followed by a sensation of sliding or slipping. Btw, I'd like to stress here that I never said this type of projection deprives you of telepathy, I just didn't mention telepathy for this type because I haven't experienced it.
2nd phase is a projection to what would be thought of as the metaphysical realm which, in its representational form can emulate the physical reality rather inaccurately and can also takes us to worlds which are seemingly beyond our imagination. I can't claim to know exactly what the experience is because the truth is, nobody knows. You only really get people who think they know and tell you that it is as they say but... here's an analogy: how can a 2-dimensional being explain to his mates his 3-dimensional experience? Btw, I say that this type of projection seemingly opens up telepathic links because I have visited certain people on Astral Viewers and I seem to have seen either what was in their heads at the time (experience made more sense to them than me, the projector) or at times I seem to have seen slightly inaccurate replicas of what they were doing in the physical. I also spoke to them but they were not aware of conversing with me which makes me posit that I was speaking to their unconscious selves. One of them was even meditating at the time of my experience and he even said to his girlfriend that he felt funny and felt as though he should remember someone or something. Perhaps in his meditative state his brain was on alpha mode and partially tuned into my frequency from a fraction of conscious perspective while the rest was unconscious to the 'conversation'. Again, I cannot claim this as fact as some authors do. It is only conjecture. We have to take into account that our OOBEs are open to all sorts of interpretations and baseless associations by the people we visit and not to mention coincidences...so...validations are not really validations.
You can join Astral Viewers and ask CaitHT and stoneZoMbIe about my visits to them. Many there believe that the "visit" actually took place. I have so many experiences written down now because I myself am writing a book and there are a few experiences in my journal on AVers too. I'd like to highlight something for you though, Pauli2...don't take what others claim as the absolute truth, have a fresh perspective when you have OOBEs, make observations and draw your own conclusions. By the way, I usually have vibrations and employ a method of separation when I induce but even today I don't claim that I really leave my body for sure. I think you also underestimate the human brain massively and you should really look into the whole cryptomnesia subject. You know more than you think you know!!
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 26, 2011, 03:13:02
I have read several books on OBE and I still don't know what you mean by "1st". In Monroe's book, Far Journeys, he describes on page 78 (Broadway Edition): "My physical body appeared to be not one, but two..."
And it is clear for the rest of the book that Monroe moves around in his 3rd body. I haven't got a clue what u mean with "1st", so maybe that should be explained? Can you refer to any book or well known authority who explains this matter?
Secondly, the fact that you feel that you're a point of awareness doesn't mean that you have _not_ left your body. It doesn't mean either that you are not IN your body either, as there could be several possible interpretations to your experience.
Your experience doesn't even take into account the mind-split effect, which make your model yet another over-simplification in the poor spirit of Frank.
Anyway, thanks for giving me an example of your experience and trying to explain your model to me.
---
I would be a little more convinced if you could point out some "place" where you have discovered that you "are", in order for me to believe your statement that you are not IN your body to begin with, and thus never can go OUT of body.
I would also want a much more firm definition of exactly what you mean by "perception" and "awareness". Really a strict definition, thanks.
I'll take Xanth's view on this one and say that regardless of what you read... you need to try it yourself before making any actual arguments for or against anything.
I haven't read all of Monroe's books... I have splashed through the 3rd one in a non-commital way. I hadn't heard of Monroe until I was 10 years into my own experiences.
Unfortunately the reply you gave wasn't dotted by your own experiences... it was Monroe said this... Monroe said that... etc
I have yet to see or experience any real benefit of his Hemi-sync product... so his whole legacy flagship lynchpin product is still held in severe question by me. That doesn't bode well for the rest of his claims built upon his hemysync foundation.
Hang on... wasn't Monroe phasing by the time the second book came out and isn't this thread about classic OBE vs phasing?
The large playing card thing... or misjudging or misinterpreting things during 1st is purely down to vision (which isn't so hot) and the state of the information collating abilities. Like when in some TV game shows they show a very small section of an object and slowly pull back to reveal what it is.
It's almost like looking at an object that's been photographed at a strange angle so it appears to look like something else... a simulcra. OOBE vision because of it's nature (360 degree 2D vision) gives rise to simulcras. Putting it simply - Your 'self'... ground control... base... whatever you want to call it... is collecting the information that your floating camera is picking up.
A thinking mass of whatever (etheric,astral)... isn't floating around in space... it's just a point of sensory perceptions.
Another way of thinking about it abstractly... it is like a camera floating around in a console game or 3D modeling interface. A floating roving invisible camera that doesn't exist.
This is why I separate 1st (locale I/RTZ) form AP (2nd phase)... AP is internal... and much easier.
Please don't spout semantics of what Monroe or Bruce said.. It is pointless because I don't agree or to some extent believe what they say and I will switch off.
There is no need to argue for them because I don't care about what they think.
I do hold in much more esteem those who actively engage in the exploration and don't charge a penny... those who help without provacation and constantly evolve with the phenomenon.
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 26, 2011, 10:03:53
Xanth, I still request detailed experiences.
All my experiences that I've recorded are clearly on my website.
None of them are going to help you, because they're *MY* experiences.
Moens experiences don't help you because they're *HIS* experiences.
Same goes for every other person's experiences who has ever existed or will exist on this planet Earth.
None of them will ever help YOU, because the most you can get out of them is a BELIEF.
You can only BELIEVE their experiences are real... you'll never KNOW.
KNOWN > BELIEF
The only way you can turn a belief into a known is by actually experiencing stuff for yourself.
Whenever I theorize 'what it is' I come up with multiple explinations myself; colorful far fetched bordering on Scifi to very mundane neurological explanations. That's half the problem. It's constantly changed as I have grown older. I have never held down or pinned down what it actually is.
We can compare similarities.
QuoteWe can compare similarities
And there have been loads of similarities and I think we have come a long way on Astral Viewers. :wink:
Actually... since I came online I have noticed a core of actual practitioners emerging that crave to teach what they have learned... asking for NOTHING in return... these people seem to agree on core principles. That's important.
Hi Pauli,
Here is the first experience I had that changed my perspective permanently. I've shared it once publicly before on this site years ago, but tend not too talk about it much because it's IMPOSSIBLE to describe. All descriptions of it are incorrect, so please keep in mind I'm doing my best:
(I'm just going to jump into the heart of it, the rest doesn't matter.)
I "woke up" as a single point of consciousness, attached to the end of a ripple on an infinite curtain of colors. This ripple was my entire life from birth to present. Every ripple was another human, and how our ripples flowed into each other was the physical world. The physical world was not a "place" from this perspective, it wasn't even real. It was a dream that we're all dreaming together, where our "ripples in the curtain overlap". Just consciousness. But not just this world, but ME TOO, the person I know myself as, born in the physical and defined by physical experiences, was just as much of an illusion as the rest of it.
I also felt that a "seam" at the end of the curtain was opening and I would be able to pass through it, completely leave everything viewed as "physical", and that it closed quickly and knocked me out, sending my awareness back into the illusion of the multicolored curtain. This was my impression at the time... I think my memory of it is distorted as I have nothing to compare it to in the physical world. But I remember my thoughts and feelings of it perfectly.
How this compares to Monroe and other travelers, I don't know. I don't care either. I KNOW what I experienced, and what defined it was consciousness itself, not descriptions of things within consciousness.
I can talk about it all day long and it's pointless. I don't expect others to find the same thing (they could probably experience the same thing and describe it completely different), but I do hope that others can find personal experiences that permanently change their perspective.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 26, 2011, 10:56:25
Actually... since I came online I have noticed a core of actual practitioners emerging that crave to teach what they have learned... asking for NOTHING in return... these people seem to agree on core principles. That's important.
Actually, there is something I wanted to talk to you about regarding an OOBE I had. It was very brief. I was dreaming first and then I woke up. There was a sound like it was raining loudly in my head and I don't know how but pulled myself away from where I was, seemingly getting out of my body...
Vision was fragmented like a glass containing the image of my room had been shattered and I couldn't stay in one location...constantly moving to and fro and had the sensation of spinning slowly as I moved. No perceived body...just vision moving about with a couple of mini-teleports here and there. what I mean by this is going from or being at a particular location and then suddenly being at another without covering any distance. I'm not even sure if it was the visional sense that let me know I was now at a different location...I just knew. Suddenly I stopped in front of the window in my room and I could see more clearly now...vision was less fragmented...suddenly I was flung from that location a few feet away but, when I looked at the location where I had been, in front of the window, I saw a transparent human body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body etc., somewhat stationary a few inches above the floor and seemed to be gradually forming...then perspective was back in the physical body and my legs felt heavy. I had to move slowly.
I would never imagine an OOBE experience like the madness I experienced and that doesn't happen in 2nd phase. It was too out of control!!! :-o
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 25, 2011, 19:42:06My point of perspective at the beginning of the experience was a millimeter or less away from the chair leg... I interpreted it as a massive white obelisk or wall. When faced with a normal sized chair leg I felt it was hundreds of feet high... pulling back away from the 'wall' allowed me to see it in its entirity. Many similar experiences has led me to come to a conclusion that when in 1st I am a point. A tiny point of focus that can navigate around 3D space. Whatever it is it is merely a perception of awareness... not a fragment of self. A directed awareness.
From this one, just a hypothesis: could 'Phasing' result in 'being point of awareness' (and thus be a little nearer to Remote Viewing practice) as opposed to 'classic vibration OBEs' which result in self-perception in a 'body'? I remember that when I read accounts by phasers that they hardly ever report on their bodies / body-self-awareness - unlike classic OBEs.
So this is just an idea. For me, it is not about the other being better or 'more true' than the other. Just trying to find a way to find some distinction of the 'techniques' and (obviously related) reality views (belief systems?) regarding to experiences/results attained, although I think there is more common ground than distinctions.
(You see, I'm on a fence here, I actually support both views, classic and phasing, since for me they are just two sides of the same reality coin, and just 'metaphors' of (self-chosen) reality experience).
I can see where you're coming from but from my perspective you may have a few things mixed up...
I always use the classic vibrational state/Sleep Paralysis method and use this as a springboard for both types... I use different separation/realisation methods to get different phases.
I thought phasing gave rise to full body perception like AP and (to a lesser degree) Lucid Dreams. I'm sure Xanth can answer that. From merely reading 'phase entry' experiences they are the same species.
When I enter 1st phase (RTZ or whatever) it is my mental focus or rather a Remote Focused Awareness that is being directed outside the physical. I would posit that Remote viewing is a subtle connection to this Remote Focused Awareness, rather than the 'Phase' or 'VS' instigated Focus 2.
Maybe phasing can be used for RTZ exploration. Maybe Remote Viewing is Phasing to RTZ.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 27, 2011, 09:29:01
I thought phasing gave rise to full body perception like AP and (to a lesser degree) Lucid Dreams. I'm sure Xanth can answer that. From merely reading 'phase entry' experiences they are the same species.
You're correct. Phasing gives rise to a full body perception. You're fully "there", in the environment, experiencing it just as you are experiencing the physical reality frame right now.
Whether you have the perception of a body or not is completely irrelevant. :)
You could be a point of consciousness experiencing that other reality frame... or you could be just as you see yourself right now (with a full body) experiencing that reality frame. Hell, you could be a floating hand or arm, and it wouldn't matter. Having a "body" isn't more or less validating as the other.
To tie this into the subject, the difference between a Classic OBE and Phasing...
The difference is one of perception and perspective. That's all. There are no fundamental differences between the two.
Quote from: Xanth on April 27, 2011, 09:42:09You could be a point of consciousness experiencing that other reality frame... or you could be just as you see yourself right now (with a full body) experiencing that reality frame. Hell, you could be a floating hand or arm, and it wouldn't matter. Having a "body" isn't more or less validating as the other.
Agreed. I recently discovered I can percieve a body from the poc perspective by simply focusing on it, and will conversely fall into the poc perspective if I initiate flight/place my focus on the environment.
Agreed also... I quite frequently assume the shape and form of animals... especially a dog or quadraped. I use this for running around... I grab the ground and pull myself along.
The difference between classic OOBE and Phasing is simply SP in my opinion. From what I can gather, one involves experiencing SP the other doesn't.
I shall have to give phasing a serious go... then at least I can have a basis for comparison.
I have phased by accident once. I found that I was gradually improving the focus of the environment that had enveloped me as opposed to when I separate from the body post a vibrational peak to find that the environment is already very much vivid and crisp or vision is either smudged or completelt dark. Sometimes, in the method that I usually employ, which is the one involving SP/VS, I separate into darkness but can feel objects around me. I touch them and the environment comes to light.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 27, 2011, 11:20:18
Agreed also... I quite frequently assume the shape and form of animals... especially a dog or quadraped. I use this for running around... I grab the ground and pull myself along.
Haha, gotta try that sometime..
Quote from: Summerlander on April 27, 2011, 11:25:45... the method that I usually employ, which is the one involving SP/VS, I separate into darkness but can feel objects around me. I touch them and the environment comes to light.
Thanks, good hint, I will try this as I have also probs with exit blindness a few times. I think I remember once touching sth (a kind of outside lantern) and then light came on, too, but it only happened once.
Thanks for all the replies :) I feel that i have a better understanding of it now and what I do need more of is personal experience.
Summerlander, Bedeekin, et al.
Here is an experience which, to me, could be a kind of description of the _not_ IN/OUT of body concept. It's an image of the Disk related to the world. Campbell fans might call it a metaphor. It still doesn't invalidate that we very well could be IN our bodies in the physical, as Ginny's story could be interpreted either way.
Here, the post by Ginny -> http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/a_fireside_chat-t2965.0.html;msg118694#msg118694
I hope that example makes my take on this matter more clear. Blind belief is not my thing, you see. :)
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 28, 2011, 09:29:43
Summerlander, Bedeekin, et al.
Here is an experience which, to me, could be a kind of description of the _not_ IN/OUT of body concept. It's an image of the Disk related to the world. Campbell fans might call it a metaphor. It still doesn't invalidate that we very well could be IN our bodies in the physical, as Ginny's story could be interpreted either way.
Here, the post by Ginny -> http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/a_fireside_chat-t2965.0.html;msg118694#msg118694
I hope that example makes my take on this matter more clear. Blind belief is not my thing, you see. :)
I think we're IN our bodies and OUT, we're both, simultaneously, we just set a focus and choose frames of reference, it's that simple.
We also need to define what/who is "I" in the first place, then we can talk about "where" "I" is. It is made more difficult since timespace does only apply to this reality. So how do we discuss the "where" when we cannot talk about "location" anymore as we are used to it? It does not APPLY!
Regarding the Ginny-post: Isn't the "I-Disk" an expression of the Total/Higher Self concepts? (I read all 3 Monroe and two of Moen's books, but it is some time ago now, so I forgot the details.) Multiple incarnations leading their own life and having chats with each other? So actually, it is you talking with yourSELF .. and not ... it's weird, but why not? Anything is possible, after all.
But I think that is not solely what the concept of "we're not only (in) our bodies" is about, it is more generally about cosmology and the whole 'set-up' of reality/realities.
I think you might find some answers in
Mysticism. Stookie's experience above is, as a matter of fact, called by many a 'mystic' experience. Many NDErs have mystic experiences of the 'unification' / 'all-is-connected/one'-kind, too. Eastern religions and some esoteric/mystic branches of Western religions have volumes of teachings about this. Why do you discount this? These are partially also witness reports by 'pro' meditators and people experiencing visions and obe states spontaneously. The problem is that they could not put it in language because it is impossible. That's why they put it into myths using cryptic and flowery language.
And many of it, esp. in Taoism, is more and more supported by findings of Western science (e.g. read physicist Capra's 'Tao Of Physics' - an old classic already!).
This is why I think that Xanth and others are right when they claim that we are not (solely) in our bodies, meaning at this very moment when we're alive. So actually, we're everywhere (in potential) because everything is more connected than we think (which also Quantum Physicists tells us).
However, you, Pauli, are right with your claims, too. It depends on the viewpoint taken. It is all a matter of FRAME OF REFERENCE.
Outside of timespace / this universe, if we assume (and many of us do here) consciousness to be the basis of all, it is right to say that we are not (in) our bodies (we = consciousness, in potential and self-awareness, but not form).
On the frame of reference of this reality/universe in timespace it is also right to say that we are (in) our bodies. It's a role we chose to play in a multiplayer game called EARTH SCHOOL SYSTEM (and that is what Buhlmann also talks about!). It is a ruleset of this reality according to which we have to play the game.
So, for me it's simple, we are BOTH. In and Out. :-)
Hear hear.
I agree with him... hear hear...
I mean
I agree with her... hear hear...
Bedeekin, I think you just remote-slapped. LOL
:-D
Greetings
I am getting into this thread a bit late. However, in accordance with good forum ettiquette I did read all of the preceding 5 pages.
Pauli has appealed to someone to spell this all out. Others think that all has been explained. I agree with Pauli.
So, 1) during a classic OBE (non-phasing, non NDE) does a person's consciousness move outside of his or her's physical body (either in whole or in part)?
I strongly aver that the consciousness Does move beyond the physical body. If there is disagreement with this belief then now is the time to express it here.
2) In a "phase' experience does the consciousness move outside of the physical body (either in whole or in part)? I have no strong belief about phasing to defend or to oppose BTW.
3) Any debate of consciousness Must include a discussion of how many 'layers' of individual consciousness actually exist. The simplest level would posit only Two layers -- physical brain and superphysical mind. However, there may be many more as, for example, the various Hindu models that posit three, four, five or even more levels (including a causal body, a mental body, a atmic body and others).
So, obviously the physical brain remains in the body during an OBE (and a phase?, yes?). But what about the other layer/layers of consciousness. Do they separate and move outside the physical body during an OBE? (That is/was the classical theory held by the great projectors of the past (Monroe, Fox, Muldoon, et al)) Or are the other layer/layers of consciousness ALREADY located outside the physical body and the concentration focus is simply transitioned from the physical brain to another layer/layers during a classical OBE? (and ditto for a Phase).
I terminate this post here in order to allow replies of reasonable length.
Regards 8-)
Grey
1) during a classic OBE (non-phasing, non NDE) does a person's consciousness move outside of his or her's physical body (either in whole or in part)?
If I theorized based upon experience... then there is no simple answer. :-D Suffice to say I think that a kind of sensory perception is externalized... or 'out' so to speak. But... this is not consciousness... it isn't a mass of thinking matter... it is an externalized sensory remote controlled perception that relays information to the source - your conscious mind. This is far less complicated than imagining it as a non-traceable or recordable subtle mass of energy that is in the form of 'you'.
2) In a "phase' experience does the consciousness move outside of the physical body (either in whole or in part)?
No!! for a few reasons...
A) phasing seems to create a more LD/2nd Phase/AP type projection... whereas when we say classic OOBE we mean RTZ or 'the wider reality' or locale I. Both of these types are entered through SP. Only subjective projection is accessed through phasing... why do I say this? because...
B) If those who do phase have no reason to believe that they are actually outside the physical body.. then it's fair to say that because they are basing their theory upon experience... their theory of complete subjectivity is probably correct.
3) Layers...lol I am starting to see a computer and the user as a good metaphor for consciousness. Very simple idea...
Think of you playing WoW...
You (the user) are the Superself/super-consciousness... the computer is the layered mind/consciousness... the avatar (grayhawk the elf) is the physical earthly 'you'....
that's as far as I got before I actually started nodding off! :-o
Hallo Bedeekin
I am somewhat surprised about your answer to my first question,
1) during a classic OBE (non-phasing, non NDE) does a person's consciousness move outside of his or her's physical body (either in whole or in part)?
Your (partial) reply was
QuoteSuffice to say I think that a kind of sensory perception is externalized... or 'out' so to speak. But... this is not consciousness... it isn't a mass of thinking matter.
Based on my own experiences I must state that I strongly believe that the individual consciousness DOES move apart from and outside of the physical body during an OBE. The idea that only
Quotesensory perception is externalized... or 'out' so to speak. But... this is not consciousness.
is more relevant to the process of remote viewing than OBEs. I can't quite conceptualize the belief that an out of body experience is, in fact, an experience that takes place only inside and never outside of the physical body.
Here is where I separate dreams from OBEs. Dreams occur entirely inside the physical brain and the dream locations, characters and events are all internal creations. OBEs and APs occur entirely outside the physical body (where the complete consciousness or at least a certain layer of consciousness) is outside the body. And most of the beings and locations are Not the creations of the OBEer.
Now I have not had several thousand OBEs and APs. I Have had a few hundred. Yet this is enough to convince Me that OBEs are truly experiences out of the (physical) body. I am certainly open to reading any arguments to the contrary. Such arguments are most probably wasted in my case but I will certainly take the time to read and reply to any.
Regards Phasing. I have no strong opinions either way. Again I have never managed to phase directly out of body. So with no experiences I cannot come to any strong conclusions.
Yes the computer and the user Is a decent metaphor for layers of consciousness. And yet it is too limited in scope and extent. Much like trying to use the analogy of a two dimensional map describing the physical objects (trees, houses, cars, etc) of three dimensional space.
Regards 8-)
Grey
I've just experienced subtleties that lead me to believe that rather than a thinking analysing consciousness that is floating around through walls and people... like a camera in a 3D modeling programme.. you are actually viewing the outside... but not at as a thinking etherial floaty body. Experiments like sticking my out-of-body 'head' into my girlfriend's 'head' and nothing of particular significance happening... or floating into the reactor of a nuclear power station and nothing of particular significance happening.. sort of push me in the direction that whatever is 'out' is inert or is just a point of awareness. Does that make sense.
"Yes the computer and the user Is a decent metaphor for layers of consciousness. And yet it is too limited in scope and extent. Much like trying to use the analogy of a two dimensional map describing the physical objects (trees, houses, cars, etc) of three dimensional space."
Absolutely... I actually started to drift off midway through what I was saying. Seriously. I had a full blown theory... but it sort of drifted away. :-D
I'll write something up about that when it's not 06:19am and I've been to sleep.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 29, 2011, 00:28:11
2) In a "phase' experience does the consciousness move outside of the physical body (either in whole or in part)?
No!! for a few reasons...
I could think of one third alternative to being
IN or OUT of body during phase. The concept of 3-D space may not be applicable in the case of phasing, so it may not be possible to talk about IN- or OUT-of-body. If you have no space, you have no place where to be IN or OUT.
Phasers are like 2-dimensional creatures in a 3-dimensional world, who can't grasp the concept of UP & DOWN. You could of course define _exactly_ what you mean by space in the astral, but I haven't read any such valid definition yet.
Could the concept of
no valid space in the phase be the reason to a possible mis-concept about IN & OUT?
I guess my entire stance on this debate of "Are we in these bodies to being with?" is... that it doesn't matter in the slightest.
What's important is that you have experiences and determine the answer for yourself. Having someone provide an experience of theirs in an attempt to answer a question doesn't help the other individual to project. Knowing that we're "in" or "out" of these bodies, doesn't help you to project.
That's my entire problem with it... people are putting the carriage before the horse here.
Don't worry about the "why" or "what"... worry about the "how". Worry about the "how do I have experiences of my own?". :)
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 09:34:03
That's my entire problem with it... people are putting the carriage before the horse here.
Don't worry about the "why" or "what"... worry about the "how". Worry about the "how do I have experiences of my own?". :)
Xanth, you're almost saying that people should not question concepts unless they have experiences of their own.
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 29, 2011, 10:35:22
Xanth, you're almost saying that people should not question concepts unless they have experiences of their own.
In a sense, yes. Everything you read here on the Astral Pulse, or written by any author can only ever be a belief to you. You can only ever "believe" it to be true... what good is that to you? The only benefit it has is that it should motivate you towards experiencing it for yourself, to determine if you can change that belief into a "known" or toss it aside as something not true to you. You can only do this through having your own experiences... there's, literally, no other way.
As Stookie posted...
He recanted a wonderful experience that opened him up to new knowledge, but as an experience, he can TRY to share that knowledge, but it will only ever be HIS truth. There's no way for him to get across at the 'being level' of what it was he experienced. He can only pass it along on the 'intellectual level'.
In the end, it's important to realize WHAT it is you're questioning and WHY you're questioning it. You're questioning someone else's experience... and honestly, you and everyone else on this planet aren't qualified to do that. Because your questioning is the act of you placing a judgment upon it. You're not qualified to make that judgment... I'm not qualified... NOBODY is qualified.
And honestly, I don't think that helps anyone... and it certainly doesn't help a beginner learning to project. All it does is further divide a community that is already divided enough. It's true when they say that this really is an Individual path.
Now, I'm not saying don't ever discuss stuff like this... I'm saying, don't get hung up on it as being the only way to learn. You can read a million books on this subject, you can watch a million videos and lectures... but you'll never really know until you put down the books, turn off the videos and TRY TO DO IT YOURSELF. :)
Are the other techniques for AP that differs much from phasing or are they all basically the same? Most techniques I have come across seems to be for classic OBEs.
In a sense they are all the same. It's just about different ways of turning off your awareness of physical sensory input. Some people do that by becoming captivated by their imagination (phasing), while others do it by going so deep in trance that their body falls asleep (kind of) while they maintain a thread of conscious awareness that carries over to "the otherworlds". But, the actual mechanism is the same.
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 10:48:26
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 29, 2011, 10:35:22
Xanth, you're almost saying that people should not question concepts unless they have experiences of their own.
In a sense, yes.
Seems like an excellent way to get Sai Baba followers.
That's not my way to go about it. If a concept seems faulty, I feel that I have the right to question it.
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 29, 2011, 11:17:43
Seems like an excellent way to get Sai Baba followers.
That's not my way to go about it. If a concept seems faulty, I feel that I have the right to question it.
First things first... quote my entire post please, because it was really more than just "yes, in a sense".
Secondly, I'm telling people not to follow anyone. I'm telling people to have their own experiences and form their own opinions on more than someone elses experience.
Thirdly, read what you just said... "If a concept seems faulty, I feel that I have the right to question it." If YOU deem it faulty.
Well, ask yourself, why do you feel you're qualified to make a judgment call upon what someone else experienced?
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 12:14:49
Thirdly, read what you just said... "If a concept seems faulty, I feel that I have the right to question it." If YOU deem it faulty.
No one wants to DEEM anything faulty. But it would be nice if _
something_ backs up the claim, as it seems hard to believe without substance.
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 12:14:49
Well, ask yourself, why do you feel you're qualified to make a judgment call upon what someone else experienced?
I don't.
I don't make a judgment.
The lack of experiences to back the claim is nevertheless a burden to the claim in question.
---
My feeling is that you are attacking me on a personal basis, instead of discussing the target of the question:
What experiences did Frank (or any other) have to back up the claim that we are not IN our bodies?
Well Pauli, the only answer you'll ever get, at least from me, is that "it really doesn't matter"... and one day, I have no doubt, that you will eventually come to that answer as well.
Perhaps, as I told you on IRC yesterday, everyone has to come to this realization themselves.
Pauli2, you wrote
I
Quotecould think of one third alternative to being IN or OUT of body during phase. The concept of 3-D space may not be applicable in the case of phasing, so it may not be possible to talk about IN- or OUT-of-body. If you have no space, you have no place where to be IN or OUT.
Phasers are like 2-dimensional creatures in a 3-dimensional world, who can't grasp the concept of UP & DOWN. You could of course define _exactly_ what you mean by space in the astral, but I haven't read any such valid definition yet.
Could the concept of no valid space in the phase be the reason to a possible mis-concept about IN & OUT?
Yes, I concur. And this is why I still have major doubts about phasing being an actual out of body experience. As I posted earlier here I consider phasing to be quite similar, perhaps even identical, to remote viewing. Remote viewers perceive external environments from afar yet they do Not (even according to the remote viewers themselves) ever leave their physical bodies.
Xanth, you wrote
QuoteI guess my entire stance on this debate of "Are we in these bodies to being with?" is... that it doesn't matter in the slightest.
Let me here state a very important reason why this DOES matter. The concept of a consciousness existing apart and independently from a physical body has Huge implications for the belief of survival of bodily death.
Now you have made a continued and strong argument for personal experience being the only true bases for belief. That is fine and for the sake of this argument I can concede that point. My argument here is that OBEs and NDEs ARE just those personal experiences that provide personal belief in survival of physical death. NDEs are especially powerful and convincing experiences.
Fortunately I have never had a NDE. Yet I have read a lot of account by people who have had an NDE.
Here is the important point - regardless of how I perceive these NDEs MANY people who have had NDEs believe absolutely and unconditionally that they have been shown that there IS a continuing existence after physical death. To them this is Proof and Many say so plainly and unequivocally in their accounts. So, to summarize these NDEs accounts - a person has a medical emergency, they nearly die, their consciousness leaves their physical body during this time, they (sometimes) see and hear events that they would not normally be able to see and hear, sometimes they meet deceased relatives or friends, they eventually survive and return to their physical body. Sometimes the NDE is immediately recalled and integrated. Sometimes the NDE is not recalled or integrated (understood) for days, weeks or months. Eventually though, for the person involved, the NDE Is the personal experience that provides Belief in life after death.
This is a major life changing event. And, I can also confidently state that some people are convinced about survival after death once they have had an OBE.
This is why the "debate of "Are we in these bodies to being with?" ("to begin with?) Does indeed matter. It matters Very Much in fact. Even if it Only provides proof to the experiencers themselves and nobody else it is a Vital question that should not be overlooked or trivialized.
Regards 8-)
Grey
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 09:34:03
I guess my entire stance on this debate of "Are we in these bodies to being with?" is... that it doesn't matter in the slightest.
What's important is that you have experiences and determine the answer for yourself. Having someone provide an experience of theirs in an attempt to answer a question doesn't help the other individual to project. Knowing that we're "in" or "out" of these bodies, doesn't help you to project.
That's my entire problem with it... people are putting the carriage before the horse here.
Don't worry about the "why" or "what"... worry about the "how". Worry about the "how do I have experiences of my own?". :)
Actually Xanth... That's so true.
But...
* I have found that those yearning to have these experiences will turn to 'us' to give them some sort of answer. It's only natural.
* Very often someone learning will describe their experience to make sure they're on the right track. This is only natural.
* The experience is predominantly subjective.. we know that... but across the board, do share very distinct modalities... if they didn't... there would be no way of identifying anything and any method would be pointless. Putting it metaphorically; we are teaching people to walk and run... it's their town though... their city... we can't tell them what lurks around the corner, but we can tell them what they
may expect and not to be afraid. 9 times out of 10 you have to explain why you are lead to believe that Demons won't harm you... why you believe that you will be able to return... etc...
Theory and explanation are unavoidable.
Quote from: Greytraveller on April 29, 2011, 13:48:30
Xanth, you wrote
Let me here state a very important reason why this DOES matter. The concept of a consciousness existing apart and independently from a physical body has Huge implications for the belief of survival of bodily death.
Now you have made a continued and strong argument for personal experience being the only true bases for belief. That is fine and for the sake of this argument I can concede that point. My argument here is that OBEs and NDEs ARE just those personal experiences that provide personal belief in survival of physical death. NDEs are especially powerful and convincing experiences.
Fortunately I have never had a NDE. Yet I have read a lot of account by people who have had an NDE.
Here is the important point - regardless of how I perceive these NDEs MANY people who have had NDEs believe absolutely and unconditionally that they have been shown that there IS a continuing existence after physical death. To them this is Proof and Many say so plainly and unequivocally in their accounts. So, to summarize these NDEs accounts - a person has a medical emergency, they nearly die, their consciousness leaves their physical body during this time, they (sometimes) see and hear events that they would not normally be able to see and hear, sometimes they meet deceased relatives or friends, they eventually survive and return to their physical body. Sometimes the NDE is immediately recalled and integrated. Sometimes the NDE is not recalled or integrated (understood) for days, weeks or months. Eventually though, for the person involved, the NDE Is the personal experience that provides Belief in life after death.
This is a major life changing event. And, I can also confidently state that some people are convinced about survival after death once they have had an OBE.
This is why the "debate of "Are we in these bodies to being with?" ("to begin with?) Does indeed matter. It matters Very Much in fact. Even if it Only provides proof to the experiencers themselves and nobody else it is a Vital question that should not be overlooked or trivialized.
Regards 8-)
Grey
I can definitely appreciate and understand that... especially if you're specifically asking those pointed and direct questions.
While asking the question of "are we in our body?" definitely has some applicable merit to other portions of our knowledge as such you've pointed out ( :) ), I don't believe it helps beginners in their quest of experiencing the larger reality personally.
Quote from: Bedeekin on April 29, 2011, 13:56:50
Actually Xanth... That's so true.
But...
* I have found that those yearning to have these experiences will turn to 'us' to give them some sort of answer. It's only natural.
* Very often someone learning will describe their experience to make sure they're on the right track. This is only natural.
* The experience is predominantly subjective.. we know that... but across the board, do share very distinct modalities... if they didn't... there would be no way of identifying anything and any method would be pointless. Putting it metaphorically; we are teaching people to walk and run... it's their town though... their city... we can't tell them what lurks around the corner, but we can tell them what they may expect and not to be afraid. 9 times out of 10 you have to explain why you are lead to believe that Demons won't harm you... why you believe that you will be able to return... etc...
Theory and explanation are unavoidable.
Definitely! I 100% agree.
However, I'm also not saying "let's not ever discuss this stuff"... because that'd just be silly, because as you point out... other people can relay their experiences to us in a manner which allows us to tell them if they're on the right track or not. But then that's experience looking for verification... not verification of the experience.
In essence, what I'm saying is... don't get hung up on other people's experiences to the point where they've blocked you from your own experiences.
EDIT: Removed the information regarding Pauli... cause that wasn't fair to him, and I apologize for that.
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 14:02:24
To put this into a bit more context... over the past year on my IRC channel, Pauli and I have been discussing his ability to learn to project, to learn to experience the non-physical first hand. He's been practicing for a long time with almost zero success. He's related to me that he's experienced vibrations... and supposedly what Monroe and Frank consider Focus 12, but never anything more than that. He's concluded that perhaps he just can't do it.
Hrmm...
Yeah... Just rub it in.
I guess it gives some kind of satisfaction.
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 29, 2011, 14:42:25
Hrmm...
Yeah... Just rub it in.
I guess it gives some kind of satisfaction.
You're right.
I've removed the offending statement. :)
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 15:23:04
*sigh*
Whatever dude.
Well u relayed things from the IRC.
So, let's take a look at your last statements:
What happens in my IRC channel has nothing to do with this forum and doesn't belong here - Xanth
Quote from: Pauli2 on April 29, 2011, 15:31:02
Well u relayed things from the IRC.
So, let's take a look at your last statements:
What happens in my IRC channel has nothing to do with this forum and doesn't belong here - Xanth
I seldom quote my own post, but as you edited it and don't seem too proud of your own words and thus deleted them, I will remind you:
YOU have been the one personal attacking me, by bringing in stuff from your IRC channel to this thread.
You.
Just read your own words:
Quote from: Xanth on April 29, 2011, 14:02:24
To put this into a bit more context... over the past year on my IRC channel, Pauli and I have been discussing his ability to learn to project, to learn to experience the non-physical first hand. He's been practicing for a long time with almost zero success. He's related to me that he's experienced vibrations... and supposedly what Monroe and Frank consider Focus 12, but never anything more than that. He's concluded that perhaps he just can't do it.
(etc.)
This is silly.
If Buhlman came and requested valid experiences from you, requested you to back up your IN-/OUT-of-body claims, you would give the question creditability.
But because you can point finger at me for my inability, the same question suddenly becomes invalid, because you can hold against me that I'm poor at projecting!
Simply put, my IRC channel and this forum are 100% completely separate entities. What's said there has absolutely no bearing here. I'd appreciate if you respected that please.
In any case...
If Buhlman was standing right infront of me asking me that... no, I wouldn't tell him. I'd tell him exactly what I've been telling you. Personally, I don't need someone else to verify my experiences. I don't need to compare my experiences to others or try to fit them into other people's beliefs to justify them. That's my ENTIRE POINT.
Honestly? A year ago? I might have... but now, not a chance.
It's why you probably have to come to the conclusion on your own terms.
I'm not pointing fingers at your inability to do anything... I'm saying that you should probably learn to do these things before you go poo-pooing on someone else's experiences. And honestly, I'm absolutely, 100% guilty of this myself over the past two years, but I've learned from it and I don't do it anymore, because the entire non-physical experience is ABOUT the experience. Case and point, Frank. You sit here posting calling Frank out... first of all, the man can't defend himself, and secondly, you're asking us like we can defend him, like we can explain his experiences to you. I can't defend those experiences that aren't mine, nobody can. That's the ENTIRE POINT.
This thread is going in circles... I think I'm done here.
I just want to say that Frank Kepple's Wider Reality resonates with my experiences even though I use the nap method and experience vibrations a lot. Kepple had a theory, his own interpretation and, although I can't wholeheartedly accept it for obvious uncertainties, it is still a pretty good theoretical model.
Xanth, you wrote
QuoteWhile asking the question of "are we in our body?" definitely has some applicable merit to other portions of our knowledge as such you've pointed out ( Smiley ), I don't believe it helps beginners in their quest of experiencing the larger reality personally.
Yes, I quite agree about it not being much help to beginners.
That is one reason that I try to suggest methods and techniques in answer to beginners questions and try to stay away from theories and concepts. Let the beginners have a few OBEs/phases/LDs/APs and then let them decide for themselves what it all means.
Just a word or two (or 3) about other people's experiences. Personally I find it impossible to be totally objective and impartial. Usually if a person posts an OBE or phase or AP experience on one of these forums AND that person is a long term member then I am Much more likely to accept that experience as true. It does Not mean that I will accept every part of the account as fact. Yet in general it is safe to assume that an OBE report by a long standing member here at Astral Pulse (or Astral Viewers or Astral Dynamics or wherever) is accurate and truthful.
Also I accept many but not all NDE reports as factual and truthful --- even though I do not know the person who posted that NDE account. Perhaps I am naive yet some things DO ring true to me (and conversely some reports Do sound too much like B.S). So I Do put a lot of credibility in many NDE and OBE accounts --- although I realize that nobody else is under any constraints to do so as well.
Regards 8-)
Grey