OBE/LD results using Supplements

[atraveler]

I have some interesting results from my early experimentation with supplements. Last night I tried the "Brilliant Dreams" supplement for the first time, which contains galantamine, choline citrate, vitamin B5, and some melatonin.  I tried it the way Mr. Yuschak from the book Advanced Lucid Dreaming recommended - sleep for about 4 hours, then wake up and take it.  I had what I would call a very sloppy LD/OBE.  I think I was trying to impose my old way of OBEing (WBTB -> LD -> OBE) on this supplement that I didn't quite understand.  Mr. Yuschak says to try to do a WILD or wake-induced OBE, not a DILD to OBE, like my old way is.  I'll try a WILD next time.  Since all my OBEs have been induced from the LD state, I tend to closely associate the two, whereas other people may not.

It's supposed to be somewhat hard to go back to sleep after taking galantamine, but I can't count it on this try because it was my first ever try with galantamine and I was kind of scared to take it when I woke up at 3:40am, but I gave it a try.  This stuff is very trippy!

It took about an hour or so to take full effect.  At one point I was totally swimming in vibrations.  I could phase out of the vibes and make them less intense or concentrate on them and make them more intense.  I looked at my hands two times.  One time they were vague and transparent.  That time I touched my non-physical face and it was solid (or "solidish") - very strange.  Another time I looked at my non-physical hands and my non-physical arms and hands were outstretched as if I were flying.  It looked like I was flying through space with stars and everything.  It only lasted a few seconds.  It was very trippy and realistic but only for a few seconds!  It was also absolutely impossible to control.  I kept having all these OBE phenomena but I have to classify it as a lucid dream with OBE symptoms because I never "exited" my body.  It all felt like it was going on inside my head in a LD.  I was too connected to being in my head in bed, unlike my other OBEs where, from my point of view, all of my consciousness is in my non-physical body, wherever it happens to be.  Also, during a certain period, I heard this strange unintelligible voice babbling in concert with other strange sounds.  I can't remember if the sounds were a type of music or just background noise.  At some point I got frustrated at not understanding the voice and I called out to it and said "Speak up, fool!".  There is absolutely no doubt about how intense the feelings were - it felt like I was on drugs!  However, I guess I kind of was .  However, I got up at least twice to go to the bathroom and while I was going back and forth both times I experienced no symptoms at all.  It was only after I got back into bed and then after I started to fall asleep that I felt these sensations.  It wasn't like when you're drunk and you feel bad no matter where you are.  I had almost zero symptoms.  I think since my stomach was mostly empty at 3:40am that it maybe felt a little bit funny while digesting, but otherwise everything is normal.  The dose of galantamine in Brilliant Dreams is only 4mg, and the maximum dose (for Alzheimer's patients) is 24mg per day.

A question worth asking is this:  Since the supplements helped me achieve these phenomena (which I'm sure I'll refine into more typical OBEs with more practice) does this somehow reduce the validity of the metaphysical/paranormal/supernatual explanations for OBEs?  Are these phenomena merely experiences of the brain which can be made more profound with certain chemicals?  Or, did the chemicals merely give me more awareness which allowed me to experience metaphysical environments?  I came to this OBE journey looking to find some spiritual truths about the soul transcending the body and I hope that my further exploration of this topic will strengthen that viewpoint - not weaken it.  Stephen LaBerge from the Lucidity Institute (from what I heard Dominic Attisani say in an interview) takes the position that OBE does not equal human soul leaving the body.  The Monroe philosophy is that OBE does equal the existence of the human soul.  Are some OBEers, including Monroe, too quick to accept the paranormal explanations?  Or, have I just not had enough experiences profound enough to convince me of the paranormal viewpoint?  I so greatly want to believe the paranormal and not the biochemical viewpoint, but I must be convinced.  I'm not going to believe it without enough personal proof.

Here is my plan for the next supplement OBE attempt:

1. I'm going to wait a few days so the galantamine gets out of my system (it usu. takes 48 hours).
2. I'm going to take it again hopefully with a little more choline bitartrate - Mr. Yuschak recommends like 600mg I think.
3. I'm going to take it around the same time - 4am.
4. I'll try to go back to sleep for a while until I start feeling symptoms, maybe an hour.
5. Once I start feeling symptoms, I'll go to my lounge chair in the other room and lie back and do WILD meditations and try to have a WILD or an OBE.

I know a lot of people are against supplementation, and I'll probably go through this supplementation phase for a while and then drop it.  However, unlike some people, I see it as a sort of "training wheels" (not a crutch) for beginners (like me) who are having significant trouble getting to experience these phenomena, or a boost for people who are in a slump.  It can help re-acquaint people with what these feelings and sensations feel like so that later they can induce them without the training wheels.  It's important for people to realize that these supplements are best used infrequently and, in my opinion, shouldn't form the basis of anyone's OBE practice.  Having said that though, I want OBEers to know that there's an available option when all else fails.

Cheers,
Atraveler

[ka0s]

Sounds like you are having some interesting beginning experiences. However, I also believe when you have more of them, you will be able to distinguish that it is not just in your head. On a scale of 1-10, how realistic was your experience(s) to physical consciousness?

[atraveler]

Well, the experiences were very unrealistic.  The vibrations and the flying in space weren't realistic at all, I'd say 2 on a 10 scale.  However, my level of conscious awareness was about a 7 - much higher than in most dreams and somewhat higher than in lucid dreams.  You're right about me needing more experiences, including some validation experiences.  My next door neighbor has already hung up a piece of 8 1/2 x 11 inch paper in one of his rooms and he's written a word on it.  Now all I have to do is go over to his house and read the word!

[ka0s]

wow thats a big jump for  a validation experiment. While dont you start off with something in your own house, such as putting a playing card face down in a different room.

[Synergy]

I have never heard of brilliant dreams, but I have tried melatonin combined with B6 and B12. I find the melatonin makes me too groggy though. However, I have since switched to 5-HTP  - (5-Hydroxytriptophan) which is a mediator in the seratonin system.  Its related to what is in turkey that makes everyone sleepy after Thanksgiving dinner.  Anyway, since I have been taking that, more for sleep than trying to LD, but it has been causing alot of them to happen all on its own, without any other supplements in combo with it.  And even when I don't LD or OBE, my dreams have been ultra vivid while taking this. 

As for whether supplements decrease validity of OBEs etc... I don't think it does, because obviously something has to happen on the physical level to trigger the event to happen.  Something has to tell the brain to let go in simple terms, then the rest of the experience is non-physical.  (Of course nobody really knows the relation/function of the brain to these phenomenon - not even neuroscientists - but there are plenty of evidence to prove that OBEs are real and not just in the mind. Tart's experiments come to mind, as do the Dutch OBE experiments) 

[Tongo]

So these chemicals cause vibrations? what you do take them before you go to bed?
Do they always work to cause vibrations?

Asteatraveller do you happen to have a link to the supplement you could message me pls. TY.

[atraveler]

Hi Tongo,

I wouldn't say these supplements cause vibrations.  Since I've had plenty of vibes in the past, the supplements help me get to the vibes and make them stronger.  From my limited experience, the supplements make these states of consciousness much more accessible, whereas usually they're so darn elusive.

I take one "Brilliant Dreams" pill after sleeping about 4 hours or so.  So, go to bed like normal at 11pm, and at 3:30, take one pill and go back to sleep.  Depending on what you're interested in, you could just go to sleep with the intention of having a lucid dream and then try to become lucid in your dream.  That's what I'd suggest the first time.  Otherwise, once you feel vibrations or symptoms, you might try to wake up and do a meditation to induce a WILD or a wake-induced OBE.

Keep in mind I've only used these supplements once!  However, I'm going to try again tonight and see what happens.  Also, Mr. Yuschak, the author of the book on LD/OBE supplements says to wait at least 48 hours  between using these supplements.  So, for example, if you use the supplements on Thursday night, use them again on Sunday night.  Start with only one pill for several attempts over several weeks and then go to two if you need to.  I'd never take more than two; Mr. Yuschak doesn't ever take more then 8mg of galantamine, which is one of the ingredients in "Brilliant Dreams".  The bottle and website for this product say to take one pill before bedtime, but Mr. Yuschak says to take one after four hours, when you're in the longer REM cycles.

Keep in mind I'm not an expert either at OBE/LD or in supplements or of any kind.  All I can do is relate my personal experiences.  I can't guarantee you'll experience anything out of the ordinary.  I'm not saying you should or shouldn't try supplements and you have to do all these activities at your own risk.  I don't think we're supposed to put links to commercial websites in this forum, but to find it, just type in "Brilliant Dreams" into Google and it'll probably be one of the first to come up.

I would recommend you consult with a doctor before using any supplements of any kind.

Cheers and be careful!

Atraveler

[nickspry]

Galantamine can be very intense sometimes. It's given me some incredibly vivid lucid experiences, but also some terrifyingly realistic nightmares (I'd avoid alcohol when using). For me the experience of a galantamine induced lucid is very different from one induced with say mugwort or using conventional induction methods. It's just a different kind of dream/OBE - know what I mean?
When combined with Alpha GPC and/or any substance which increases dopamine/norepinephedrine (EGCG, mucuna pruriens for instance)the result can be even more amazing and you'll probably experience a big increase in both control and confidence within the dream. Personally I don't use these more than once a week as there has been some concern about too much dopamine causing problems.
I think it's ok to use these things but you need to give your system time to break them down and flush them out. With galantamine, I would take three days off between attempts. If you take it more often than this the effects will be much less, or it will even stop working completely.
I prefer Galantamind to Brilliant Dreams, the only reason being that Brilliant Dreams contains melatonin. Melatonin inhibits REM sleep and increases deep sleep. So it's not a good thing to take after you wake from from 4 or 5 hours sleep. It's great when taken before bed though as it can cause the REM rebound effect. Thomas Yuschak had a lot to say about this subject.....
As for your question about the metaphysical side of things....I think that certain substances/molecules open doors to different realities. This is where science and occultism/"new age" thinking will eventually come together. Quantum physics is the in-between and will provide the answers I think.
I've also tried some validation experiments lately using playing cards. Cards were well shuffled and not seen by me. These were my (only 2)results:
Card 1 was (in reality): 5 of hearts/ In my OBE the suit kept changing, though the number remained a 5. It eventually settled on a 5 of spades - I was impressed I got a 5 though (a one in 12 chance!)
Card 2 was (in reality): 8 of clubs/ I saw a 9 of clubs.
For me, although neither result was correct, to have such close results twice in a row was quite intruiging and I'll carry on until I prove this one way or another to myself....

Cheers...

[atraveler]

Nickspry - thanks for your post.

This past Sunday morning I had five - seven back to back intense fascinating lucid dreams using 2 BDs, 500mg choline and 600 mg GPC.  I only do the BD once per week.  I had had a couple of drinks with dinner so maybe there was some REM rebound effect going on too.

I agree that the galantamine-induced LDs are different than spontaneous ones.  The spontaneous ones are always much more personally profound.

I did three cool techniques I'd like to share: 1. I did the spinning technique several times to keep the LDs going, which was pretty effective.  2.  I was going to write some of the LDs in my journal and I intended to wake up and get my journal out of the bedside table drawer.  Instead I had a false awakening and realized what was happening and turned it into another LD. 3. I found I can move inanimate objects around in my LDs - like tables and chairs.  So far I've been unable to conjure a person from scratch though.  My next goal is to try to communicate with people in LDs and try to turn them into OBEs.  I've turned several LDs into OBEs, but never while using the supplements - yet.

You mentioned:

I think that certain substances/molecules open doors to different realities.

I definitely believe this is true - especially in the case of DMT, which I've read about but never tried.

Cheers,
Atraveler

[Tongo]

I've had more lucid/clear dreams since taking "Brilliant Dreams" galantamine supplement. While the dreams are clearer it only really registers after I wake up. I keep trying to tell myself before I go to bed to get vibrations but I never do.

It seems in my dream world at the time i'm not really conscious enough to shout to myself "INDUCE VIBRATIONS NOW!!" (sigh) anyone got any ideas? also I was thinking of perhaps going on the hunt to get some even stronger Galantimine product like Extra strong or something. Anyone know of any? thx.

[atraveler]

Hi Tongo,

Go to bed at 11pm, and set you alarm so you wake up at 3am.  When you wake up at 3am, take 2 Brilliant Dreams pills + 500mg Choline Bitartrate + 600 mg alpha-GPC.  Then go back to sleep and you'll notice that you're more aware during your dreams.  The supplements usually take about 1.5 hours before they start to take effect.  If you drank alcohol that evening, the supplements can take from 2 to 3 hours before they start to take effect.  The Choline works with the Galantamine to activate your elevated awareness.  The Choline reaches its peak after about 1.5 hours and wears off about an hour later but the GPC prolongs the experience and picks up where the Choline stops.

For maximum results, only do this once per week.  If you've been taking Brilliant Dreams several nights a week for a while, stop taking it for a full week before trying again.  If you do it much more than once per week, your body will start to build a tolerance and your results wont be as good.  Don't worry about the vibrations.  If you want to have an OBE, think to yourself: "Ok, now I will go out of body."  Maybe even say a specific location: "Ok, now I will go to the kitchen (or outside your window or bedroom)."  I haven't yet induced an OBE from the galantamine.  All my OBEs came from the OBE timer CD (blank noise separated by beeps).

For me right now, I think this supplement thing is just a phase, but it's producing interesting results so I think I'll keep doing it for a while until I'm satisfied I've learned and experienced all that's possible with the supplements.

Please keep in mind that I'm not a doctor.  I've never had any side-effects or problems from the above supplements, but I can't guarantee that for you.  Consider my advice an informational opinion from a novice.  What I've written here is just an opinion - not advice.  I am not a doctor and I'm not qualified to give anyone any advice on anything.  Any supplements are always more dangerous than none at all.

Cheers,
Atraveler

[Envix]

... also I was thinking of perhaps going on the hunt to get some even stronger Galantimine product like Extra strong or something. Anyone know of any? thx.

There's a product called "Galantamind" that has twice as much of everything in Brilliant Dreams, minus the melatonin. I actually think it's cheaper too.

[nickspry]

Hi Atraveler,
You mentioned not being able to conjure a person from scratch. I also had this problem but there are ways round it. You need to give your mind time to create an experience/person.  For instance If you want to meet a certain person in your lucid dream/obe look at a destination in the distance and tell yourself that when you reach this place, that certain person will be there. This gives your subconscious time to create the experience for you. This always works for me, give it a try!
Good luck.