Death, one of the fundamental principles of Humanity thus far, however, is it really there? Or, is it just some looming belief of which we have no reason to fear? I,for one, think that, yes, our bodies do die but our consciousnesses do not. Or does it depend on the belief on the individual? Or none of these, and when we die, we're screwed? :cool: Input?
In my opinion there is no need to be afraid of death! Think about it: If U die and everything ends there then U just disappear and U have nothing to remember or feel or be afraid of or whatever... it just ends there (although I doubt it).
I think that what really happens is that when we die we lose only our cell (body) everything else stays (our memory is erased when we return to the source). So there is no need to fear death!
Anyways I'm not afraid to die and I never was either. This life is just another part of our journey. That's just my opinion though, U must find Ur's by Ur-self...
Quote from: WhateverIn my opinion there is no need to be afraid of death! Think about it: If U die and everything ends there then U just disappear and U have nothing to remember or feel or be afraid of or whatever... it just ends there (although I doubt it).
That's a rather selfish outlook. What about the grief you'd cause your family and friends?
Death doesn't exist...
Some things are true whether you believe in them or not. Death, with its bad rep and all, is definitely one of those things. :smile:
Think about it, everything in the universal runs in cycles. Why not life itself? Why should life end and not cycle?
The state of your surroundings in the next world might also depend partly and temporarily on your belief structures you clung to in your earthly life. Until you see your belief structures for the illusion that they are and move on.
Lose your cell? Have not seen that description of the body before. Btw, I don't think your memory is ever erased, because what would the point of your life have been then? :grin: If you go with the whole reincarnation thing, what does happen is that you simply choose to forget so you can have a 'clean' experience.
Nothing is ever lost.
Let your ego die.
Quote from: interceptionSome things are true whether you believe in them or not. Death, with its bad rep and all, is definitely one of those things. :smile:
Think about it, everything in the universal runs in cycles. Why not life itself? Why should life end and not cycle?
The state of your surroundings in the next world might also depend partly and temporarily on your belief structures you clung to in your earthly life. Until you see your belief structures for the illusion that they are and move on.
Lose your cell? Have not seen that description of the body before. Btw, I don't think your memory is ever erased, because what would the point of your life have been then? :grin: If you go with the whole reincarnation thing, what does happen is that you simply choose to forget so you can have a 'clean' experience.
Nothing is ever lost.
Let your ego die.
Couldn't life run in cycles but not consiousness? If consiousness is an emergent property of the brain, death could bring oblivion to that, but our body decays, providing life to organisms which feed off us, which inturn die and provide life etc. Even far into the future when the sun dies and so does Earth, its atoms might still find new use elsewhere.
As much as I have experienced. I still am undecided if we truely survive death. You'd think that the passed-on gurus (Monroe et al) would have given us all a big message by now to show us death is but a barrier - yet we're still waiting.
People might argue that the OBE state, or events witnessed through it are proof enough - to a degree yes, but we don't know if OBEs are reliant upon a living brain. Even NDEs happen when the brain still has activity (ie noone has come back when their brain was dead).
I guess it's a wait and see kind of thing :).
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That's a rather selfish outlook. What about the grief you'd cause your family and friends?
Everyone understands that their parents/partner/brother/sister/child etc must die. Even if it is painful to those we leave behind, I don't think we can call it selfish. If we end on death or carry on, we can't help the living so both could be considdered selfish with that outlook?
Its like one of those terrible stories you see on the new. A family afflicted and they cant comprehend such a thing has happened to them, such things happen to other people, not them - yet it happened. Just because we can't comprehend a certain state doesn't rule out its existence.
Perhaps i'm playing slight devils advocate with this post, who knows ;).
Quote from: MisterJingo
I guess it's a wait and see kind of thing :).
You are right, to many that is true. The reality of existence beyond the physical is something you come to know to be true on a deep level, but you cannot prove or show it to another person.
To me, the physical universe in all its complexity, seems like a pointless exercise if life and conscious memorized experiences specifically, does not continue on some level.
What would the point be of all the combined experiences of human beings on the day the sun used up the last of its fuel?
In my mind it would be an incredible waste of time and energy if there weren't some sort of... continuance... to it all.
Am I just fooling myself? I guess we will see. :wink:
The problem is as long as human live they will never learn what is beyond life on earth because it would disrupt things...
Life is the big mystery, not death :wink:
Quote from: catmeowLife is the big mystery, not death :wink:
:smile: True.
What if we're all right? I mean, it's entirely possible that what happens after we "Die" depends completely on our belief system. That's what I would think, anyway.
Or that its like always in a dream state or coma.
That would be so scary
Knowing you're always in a dream that would be not so cool.
Quote from: Sepultura123Knowing you're always in a dream that would be not so cool.
It would be fun at first, but get boring after a while :)
Perhaps you could create your own world and 'live' there for a while until eternity happens.
Yeah if you can create everything it could be cool , but you know inside you that you have no friend there just creation , all around you is creation.
Total oblivion? It happens. Though spirits have a huge length of evolution behind them, they're still organisms like anything else, and can be killed. It just takes a lot more trouble to do so.
Several NDE stories state that when a person (spirit form) is approaching a powerful spirit, they're told to approach slowly or else they'll 'burn up', though, they're usually told they 'can't handle it' as a less intimidating choice of words. But the phrase 'burn up' slips out now and then, and while total death from this is unlikely, it's possible, and that would be the 'end'. A bombardment of high-level energy would do it.
i've never understood why people are so hard-pressed to not believe in reincarnation (be it in any form)- if we can be born once, why not again? as far as just "disappearing" after death---i can't even fathom that- but i guess it's just another handicap of the human form.
what about animals? i've always found it odd that humans hold them selves in this "[insert god here] loves me and wants me to be with [insert god's gender here] after death." ---well--we ARE animals. animals eat, sleep, think, breed, communicate, and die--just like us. are we so foolish to think that we are any better than any other life form? what happens to animals after they die?
what about people who communicate with the dead? they're everywhere- and sometimes dead accurate (*PUN ALERT!*) on descriptions of total strangers lives and family- what about them? are we just going to shove them aside for our own personal beliefs? like how some Christians ignore the part of the bible that says being gay is an immediate ticket to everlasting torture? i have a friend who says "that is just silly. my church doesn't believe that." --how can you put all your faith into a book----and then just cut out a chapter or two??
we as humans are elitist, hypocrites and we're far too naive to even comprehend what happens after death because we want what we want and we dint want it any other way. we're selfish and we are not evolved enough to comprehend other forms of life. in a sense, we are the white trash of the universe. :p
In reference to what zareste posted, I doubt that is right cos your energy body is indestructible, and like there would be no way it could get erased. Plus you have your higher self, at a very high frequency, protecting you ;)
But it's weird, if what you posted is possible, then EVERYONE will have to die sometime, cos like eternity is eternity, all the possibilities in the universe have a time limit on them, and eternity is infinite, so therefore everything possible will eventually happen in time, it has to cos everything has to occur within eternity, including (if true) the burning up of spirits.
Quote from: DonalIn reference to what zareste posted, I doubt that is right cos your energy body is indestructible, and like there would be no way it could get erased. Plus you have your higher self, at a very high frequency, protecting you ;)
But it's weird, if what you posted is possible, then EVERYONE will have to die sometime, cos like eternity is eternity, all the possibilities in the universe have a time limit on them, and eternity is infinite, so therefore everything possible will eventually happen in time, it has to cos everything has to occur within eternity, including (if true) the burning up of spirits.
Firstly, on the quantum level energy is created and annihilated all of the time in all places. And if one wishes to discount that and claim energy cannot be destroyed, then remember that it can still change form. If I burn a leaf to ash, its previous structure is forever gone and its particles scattered to the wind. Those particles still exist but the structure they once formed does not.
Secondly, eternity is bounded by human time conception. If we do exist after death, I have no idea how we will interpret time. Human interpretation is not necessarily the absolute truth.
Mister is right about the energy thing. Everything appears and disappears with each frame of reality - it's just the structure of quarks and atoms that allow objects to continue between frames, and organisms and memories allow our thoughts to continue like this. It's remarkable that we can exist as long as we do.
Still, I wonder: If your spirit were reconstructed after absolute death with the memory and structure intact, would you be the one existing as the new spirit? That question of ego always annoyed me, partly because I was raised with the belief that we're indestructible and despise the fact that we can die completely. But, if I'm right about reality working in frames, we're disappearing completely and reappearing a bazillion times per second, and surely there's a way to restore one's existence.
zareste wrote:
QuoteBut, if I'm right about reality working in frames, we're disappearing completely and reappearing a bazillion times per second, and surely there's a way to restore one's existence.
hearts7
Still, I wonder: If your spirit were reconstructed after absolute death with the memory and structure intact, would you be the one existing as the new spirit? That question of ego always annoyed me, partly because I was raised with the belief that we're indestructible and despise the fact that we can die completely. But, if I'm right about reality working in frames, we're disappearing completely and reappearing a bazillion times per second, and surely there's a way to restore one's existence.
Is this in reference to our physical human bodies dying, or is it if our spirit bodies get burned up then the spirits body can restore it's existence after getting burned up?
I'm sorry about posting this, but before I had an experience about if I was dead forever and ever and I started to cry and I almost had a panic attack, and when I think that thought the same feelings happen a small bit.
Like I though infinity is infinity, but if you are dead forever for "infinity", which is forever, infinity is just a part of infinity, which is just a part on infinity, and so on.
Quote from: zaresteMister is right about the energy thing. Everything appears and disappears with each frame of reality - it's just the structure of quarks and atoms that allow objects to continue between frames, and organisms and memories allow our thoughts to continue like this. It's remarkable that we can exist as long as we do.
Still, I wonder: If your spirit were reconstructed after absolute death with the memory and structure intact, would you be the one existing as the new spirit? That question of ego always annoyed me, partly because I was raised with the belief that we're indestructible and despise the fact that we can die completely. But, if I'm right about reality working in frames, we're disappearing completely and reappearing a bazillion times per second, and surely there's a way to restore one's existence.
One possibility is that EGO might be a product of brain structure (which has been constructed from every experience to date). Consiousness might be an emergent property of the brain.
Each brain generates consiousness, but individuality is given through the different life experiences (genetic inheritence etc). So we are not each individual points of consiousness, we are just consiouness which percieves tiself through EGO - in that way we are all the same - all one etc.
So even if we are disappearing and reappearing, sensory data would still filter through our ego to the consiousness behind ie we would remain ourselves because with the brains structure we can be nothing else.
I guess the only thing which will answer if the mind survives after death is the experience of death itself :).
Quote from: DonalI'm sorry about posting this, but before I had an experience about if I was dead forever and ever and I started to cry and I almost had a panic attack, and when I think that thought the same feelings happen a small bit.
Like I though infinity is infinity, but if you are dead forever for "infinity", which is forever, infinity is just a part of infinity, which is just a part on infinity, and so on.
If these talks upset you, you should take time out from them - and I mean that in a loving way :). I remember as a child I used to try and visualise oblivion (this took the form of trying to visualise what there would be with no universe) and would always produce a pretty horrid feeling.
Even now, I was recently reading a book about neurology and the author was of the belief that brain spawns mind and that we are intricate biological machines. This left me 'cold' for days trying to reconcile current scientific finding in this field with my own beliefs.
It can be good to ground ourselves and take time out when we feel it's getting a bit much.
QuoteIs this in reference to our physical human bodies dying, or is it if our spirit bodies get burned up then the spirits body can restore it's existence after getting burned up?
Ah, pardon, I word things strangely sometimes. It refers to spirits, bodies, and anything physical, cause I think time works in frames and the universe is refreshing itself over and over to create movement, which would mean we're being destroyed and recreated with every frame.
QuoteOne possibility is that EGO might be a product of brain structure (which has been constructed from every experience to date). Consiousness might be an emergent property of the brain.
I always thought about that too. Well, we know thought is something the spirit does, but I have a theory that our 'spirits' or minds are made of multiple spirit orbs which communicate and function as the same mind, and the ego is de-centralized. This would explain all sorts of personality conflicts, and theoretically the orbs can come and go at will, meaning you can gain mind power or lose it depending on how well you deal with new 'additions' to your thought pattern. The only thing centralizing the ego could be the brain.
This theory comes from the simple fact that spirits communicate thoughts so fast they might as well have the same mind. Plus, observations of really powerful spirits where I wondered: Where do the big-shot spirits get all their energy? And noticed how they function like multiple spirits in one, merging and splitting with other spirits freely and always being surrounded by smaller 'orbs', or sparkles or points of light. This info comes from NDEs I've read where the person is swept away by the strong spirit's energy and it feels like there's a life force in every atom. The spirit's power could come from their ability to think intricately with many orbs relaying thoughts back and forth.
Anyway if this is true, the ego and memory lie in several spirit orbs (perhaps the chakras?), and killing one would only lower your ability to think, and the other orbs might instinctively scatter away. To completely destroy an ego might be next to impossible.
If this will make anyone feel better, some people believe they have accessed information from the collective unconscious, akashic records, or whatever you want to call the 'collective information' phenomenon, and some have actually received information that is hard to explain otherwise (except maybe by reincarnational theories but not in my case) so if the personality (EGO as brain produced consciousness) doesn't survive biological death, something of the life experience seems to, even though it may not be as we experience it now (no personality- that would be a product of biology+experience). But it appears to some that the experience itself remains somewhere, perhaps in some sort of nonlocal field (if there is such a thing).
Another theory to throw around: Anything that dies isn't real.
The Ego is an illusion created by an accumulation of experiences remembered from birth on. We identify ourselves with our experiences and place in earthly life. It's so well constucted it's who we think we really are.
In this way, it's not physical death itself that is feared, but the Ego's fear of it's own destruction.
Once you go through that awful process and experience yourself outside of Ego, you aren't "you" anymore, but something much greater that was wearing an "ego-illusion-cloak". So who cares if the Ego dies? It just means it didn't really exist in the first place. It's the thoughts, feeling, & willing that the ego is the medium of which is real and continues to exist.
The next question would be if ego dies: what are you then? are you maybe part of a greater consciousness? does this greater consciousness also has an ego that is not yours? here we enter an infinite loop: when the greater ego is lost theres still another greater greater consciousness. it is also possible that this has already happened and we are (compared to some beings) a greater consciousness or the greater greater.
Cant we just ask someone who died? :lol:
Quote from: StookieAnother theory to throw around: Anything that dies isn't real.
The Ego is an illusion created by an accumulation of experiences remembered from birth on. We identify ourselves with our experiences and place in earthly life. It's so well constucted it's who we think we really are.
In this way, it's not physical death itself that is feared, but the Ego's fear of it's own destruction.
Once you go through that awful process and experience yourself outside of Ego, you aren't "you" anymore, but something much greater that was wearing an "ego-illusion-cloak". So who cares if the Ego dies? It just means it didn't really exist in the first place. It's the thoughts, feeling, & willing that the ego is the medium of which is real and continues to exist.
To quote someone else who describes a view I like:
Quote from: Some Junkie
I read an interesting book by Ken Wilber called 'Up From Eden' where he uses the Jewish creation myth to describe a particular stage of the evolution of human consciousness. As the title of his book suggests, Wilber does not see a "fall" from this perfected Edenic state after eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil but rather the reverse. To him, Adam and Eve in Eden represent mankind in the unconcious pre-personal/pre-egoic state...basically the state of mind of most animals. However, he makes an important distinction and says this state is not the ideal state. Seeing it as an ideal state is a view which he calls "the pre-trans fallacy", that being: confusing an unconscious pre-personal state with the superconscious trans-personal state (ie.enlightenment), a fallacy he attributes to what he calls 'Romanticism' (in other words, romanticizing some distant time when humans existed in complete harmony with Nature, God, et al. - a time which he thinks didn't exist in our past, but could exist in the future of our species when the consciousness of our species as a whole evolves further.) He describes it much better than I could. It's a pretty interesting book and one worth checking out if any of this makes sense to you.
If we disregard the religious symbolism, I feel this might hold some truth. That is, we will find enlightenment not through reducing the ego, but from refining it. Without ego, we simply cease to be as individual beings. Beings experienced in the astral, even seemingly very advanced beings, each have a definite personality (Ego).
By refining I mean removing the extremes and 'walking the middle path'.
If we look at sentiency on this planet, as seeming sentiency increases through the animal kingdom, so does a definite sense of self and individual personality. Perhaps ego is the reason for evolution/growth.
Quote from: jalefThe next question would be if ego dies: what are you then? are you maybe part of a greater consciousness? does this greater consciousness also has an ego that is not yours? here we enter an infinite loop: when the greater ego is lost theres still another greater greater consciousness. it is also possible that this has already happened and we are (compared to some beings) a greater consciousness or the greater greater.
Cant we just ask someone who died? :lol:
Thats what I've always wondered. True ego death would be oblivion for the individual, akin to their words and deeds being recorded in a book, but the sentiency behind them gone forever.
And thats a good second point regarding dead people. THey each still seem to have an ego, and so do advanced spiritual beings.
Then the other annoying question: If you - in spirit - were duplicated precisely, which clone's eyes would you see from? By the rules of the universe, you probably can't make a precise clone, but I'm sure you can come close enough.
Thanks to spirits' thought relaying, you'd probably see with both clones. That's just how our consciousness tends to work. I think our minds already consist of several smaller spirits acting as one, so this shouldn't be unusual.
Still, anyone else have a take on the clone thing?
Quote from: zaresteThen the other annoying question: If you - in spirit - were duplicated precisely, which clone's eyes would you see from? By the rules of the universe, you probably can't make a precise clone, but I'm sure you can come close enough.
Thanks to spirits' thought relaying, you'd probably see with both clones. That's just how our consciousness tends to work. I think our minds already consist of several smaller spirits acting as one, so this shouldn't be unusual.
Still, anyone else have a take on the clone thing?
I think cloning perfectly would be possible, and many people (such as Robert Bruce) think we create coppies of ourself when we project etc.
To save myself retyping something I wrote elsewhere:
Quote from: misterjingo
Another theory I've reasoned is that consciousness is the same in each of us. That is every human who exists (and potentially every aware life form) shares the same basis of consciousness, individuality arises from different life experiences. So in effect every person on this planet is you but with differing life experiences. What this means is that if death is oblivion, you will exist in the next new born child. Not as 'you' but as a new point of consciousness which is exactly the same as your core. So either way, if there is life after death or not, we will be back
My reasoning behind this (ignoring the life-after death considerations) is either we each share the same basis of consiousness, if we don't, then the other possibility is that there are a billion types of types (I mean unique types, not instances) consiousness out there (And mroe as the population grows). With the similarities between us all, I think we can assume that consiousness is created/maintained the same way.
The only reason we have an awareness of individuality is an experienced produced ego/belief system.
So regarding cloes, it wouldn't matter which clones view you saw from, because you would be a point of consciouness with an intergrated ego.
To extend this slightly, with this reasoning, everyone you see, however different they seem to you is 'you' (or that spark which is the observer/watcher) with different experiences (life/genetic).
I think if people would be cloned , its sure that they will see through they own eyes normally. The other will be just like a copy of yourself but with another brain and not two brain that communicate .
In the physical, identical twins are natural clones. They have their own point-of-view but have been shown to have more extrasensory communication with each other than 'normal' people. So there is something to the 'shared wavelenghth' idea but they are not extensions of each other. Or are they? :confused:
No they are not extension but its more easy for them to communicate and understand each other.
Quote from: Sepultura123 on February 15, 2006, 22:20:14
No they are not extension but its more easy for them to communicate and understand each other.
Why? :?
Quote from: dingo on February 04, 2006, 18:32:23
That's a rather selfish outlook. What about the grief you'd cause your family and friends?
Yes, good point.
Did you see the "Man Show" skit where they have a contract service that comes in after you die, and cleans up your room before any relatives can see what a mess it is or be embarresed by personal things scattered around? Then a gay interior decorator fixes up and makes everything tidy, then they place religious books on the shelves and tables to make it seem that you were a devout person.
Fear of Death. YES. If you spend your life doing evil deeds then yes, you should fear death.