THanks for all the links, i will surely visit them. On the other hand, i wouldn't be so sure that DMT is safe. Don't take a websites word for it, either ask a doctor or visit a medical website.
Have you ever hear of salvia Divinorum?
David
It is still not obvious to me how to get DMT cheaply and without legal troubles. It is not enough to know that I produce it in my pineal gland and that I can find it in plants in South America. As to producing it myself, I know enough to know I can't do it. Anyone who suggests using lithium aluminum hydride at home is crazy. Same for ether, really.
Hi asstray85,
believe me, no drug having an impact on the psyche is completly harmless. How could it be! The argument that shamans have used drugs for generation, doesn`t hold. If you are a shamans apprentice, you get your experience in a controlled setting with guidance. If you use drugs on your own, it`s like riding a race car without training, you may feel great on a salt lake, but any curve will certainly end the pleasure.
Any psychotropic drug, if used for a while, will imbalance the nervous system. The other danger comes from going into realms, you are not prepared for. If you use your own energy to go, you can compete as this is YOUR level. If a drug rocket takes you to the DEITY level, you`ll be lost.
I am not moralizing, believe me. I had some experience with LSD 30 years back, and it`s just not worth the price you have to pay.
Helmut.
PER ADURA AD ASTRA as Robert would say.
quote:
Originally posted by asstray85:
DMT is a drug that is completely harmless. Our body produces the chemical and it stimulates to pineal gland
Yeah? Well my body also produces methane but you won't see me putting anymore of that inside of it.
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://MyJokeMail.com
Asstray, DMT and beta-carboline compounds (such as in Syrian rue and passionflower) can indeed be useful tools when used in the proper safe, comfortable set and setting, and with the help of experienced human guides. When combined (as in ayahuasca), the DMT and beta-carboline containing plants can produce amazing results, such as telepathy, but may sometimes interact dangerously with one another (depending on the particular kind of DMT-like alkaloid, I believe). Please read all the literature you can find about them, including medical warnings; they are both MOA inhibitors, especially the beta-carbolines, and in combination with the wrong food or drugs (cocoa, antihistamines, aged cheese, yohimbe, for instance) can cause a dramatic, even life-threatening drop in blood pressure. If you are interested in trying DMT and/or beta-carboline containing compouns, seek an experienced, trustworthy guide. Perhaps first try the the substances by themselves, in the most natural forms possible, and in a ritualized setting -- your guide can help with this. Psilocybin-containing plant friends are a great natural way to ingest DMT-like compounds. Remember, these substances are triggers, and not the experiences themselves; while non-addictive, they still may be habit-forming in a way, as you may come to depend on them for The Experience -- in which case, you are being signaled to move on and learn to do it with different triggers, such as hypnosis/relaxation/affirmation. Please obey all applicable laws. You may wish to try these substances in countries where they are allowed, and among people who are knowledgeable about them, and do not look upon them unfavorably. www.lycaeum.org is a great site for serious information on such subjects.
Blessings,
Dave
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
Anyone trying to find a short-cut through drugs please forget. You can't retain or keep the requisite degree of mental control. It's next to impossible with people who are completely sober.
Yours,
Frank
It would be an interesting experience and worth repeating, but I can't imagine wanting to make a habit of the experience. These things have a way of declining quickly, and there is cross-tolerance even between different families of hallucinogens. Meditation, unlike hallucinogens, starts out slow and gets better. It is frustrating to wait for that time to come, and it helps to have some memories to rely on for motivation.
quote:
Originally posted by Frank:
Anyone trying to find a short-cut through drugs please forget. You can't retain or keep the requisite degree of mental control. It's next to impossible with people who are completely sober.
That's an extreme oversimplification, Frank. These plants were given us as learning tools, and there is good reason to believe (see McKenna) some of them were responsible for the development of human language. Humans have a very long history of using psilcybin, as is evidenced by a brain receptor into which psilocin fits like a key in a lock, showing that humans used them for perhaps many thousands of years. The plants are our friends and spirit-companions. The trick is to learn what they have to teach, but not become dependent on them for the experience. If used properly, they are no short-cut, but simply one means toward achieving an end. As with mental control, that comes in time with any method; and no need to worry about becoming addicted to psychedelics, for they are non-addicting, generally non-habit-forming, and most users naturally take them infrequently, eventually learning enough through such use that they no longer need to take them. This can even happen after one powerful experience.
I agree bear. If you are going to reply to this topic, dont reply on impulse and express your knowlege of drugs, because dmt is different. It is naturally secreted during meditiation, therefor if you take it externally its equivelent to intense meditation. So It would never ruin your control, I tried to explain before but i guess some people didnt get it. LSD messes with your head, you see and hear things that simply arent there, imaghes, sounds, etc, created by your brain, and of course the possiblility of a spiritual experience. DMT on the other hand is purely spiritual, and it does not have to turn into a habit at all. If anyone thinks this drug is too hard to obtain or extract, theres this pill you can take that is supposed to naturally boost dmt levels which could be a tremendous help in meditation.http://www.acutcmdetox.com/tryptophan2.html
-Steve
Terrence McKenna was a crackhead...JK I read a lot of his works a while back and the sad thing is that he really thought he was on to something, and you know what..he was just ON something. I have personally used a number of psychadelic compounds, I studied them...I experienced their effects, and I have OBE'd...and trust me, you WILL NEVER experience, with DMT or any other drug, the true meaning of power and freedom in the out of body state...NEVER! The doors of perception are flown open but not cleansed.
The following is an expereince by an unknown male subject (taken from www.erowid.org )
SOME INFO:
DOSE : smoked 5-MeO-DMT (powder / crystals)
BODY WEIGHT : 190 lb
For a period of approximately 6 weeks, I experimented rather frequently with 5MEO (three or four times a week). Typical doses were in the 5 to 10 mg range, and we would do this perhaps 3 times over the course of an evening using a small glass pipe.
This substance produces a short lasting but extraordinarily intense psychedelic experience. In addition to mental effects which are roughly comparable to the peak of a double digit acid experience, the drug also produces indescribably euphoric physical sensations comparable to orgasm.
The onset of effects is almost instantaneous and the ensuing rush so intense that no matter how many times one has used the substance the first few seconds after inhalation are invariably accompanied by a degree of shock and fear. The drug's principle effects are intensely euphoric and last in general 5 to 10 minutes. During this period it seems as though one has no direct contact with the outside world; as though all stimuli to the brain are emanating from within rather than through the senses. This period of intoxication, which we came to refer to as 'the warp', is sometimes followed by a period which may last as long as half an hour during which the user feels effects quite similar to a large dose of LSD.
At the conclusion of this approximate 6 week period, interest in the drug waned and there was no further experimentation. Starting from perhaps a month afterwards, both myself and my partner in experimentation experienced a variety of disturbing neurological symptoms, such as twitches and occasional feelings of pins and needles and numbness of the extremities.
Occasional disturbances of memory were also noticed. These symptoms continued with decreasing intensity for the better part of a year after the period of experimentation, at which point such symptoms ceased to occur. It was at this time that we noticed, week by week, a sense of increased mental clarity and proficiency. During this same period it became clear to us that our performance at work (software development) had been substandard in the months that followed the period of experimentation. It occurred to us both that the period of chronic experimenation with 5MEO, however enjoyable, seemed to have caused temporary but significant damage to our brains, both cognitively and neurologically. A chilling reminder that substances such as 5MEO are indeed RESEARCH CHEMICALS for which safe levels of use are yet undetermined.
In light of my experience with 5MEO, I urge caution to anyone considering experimentaion with the drug and strongly suggest that such experiments be of a limited nature.
Exp Year: 2000 ID: 5845
Added: Mar 25, 2001 Views: 3540
fides quaerens intellectum
quote:
Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior:
Terrence McKenna was a crackhead...and trust me, you WILL NEVER experience, with DMT or any other drug, the true meaning of power and freedom in the out of body state...NEVER! The doors of perception are flown open but not cleansed...In light of my experience with 5MEO, I urge caution to anyone considering experimentaion with the drug and strongly suggest that such experiments be of a limited nature.
Peaceful, you don't use very friendly language for someone with such a user name; your words about McKenna seem unkind and provocative, and further, they imply he used the drug crack, which seems doubtful (although perhaps he experimented with it, I don't know). I do agree that caution is the watchword, but I feel it should be such with any psychic trigger or experience. The DMT experience is overwhelming, which is why I recommend the counsel of our coprophilic plant-friends instead. Your assertion that "the doors of perception are opened but not cleansed" is inaccurate; it implies the trigger
is the experience, while in truth, the chemicals only lead you to the door, whether they come from a smoke, a plant, or your pineal gland. Certainly, external triggers are not necessary, and it gives one a feeling of immense satisfaction to no longer require them for non-physical exploration, but they can be useful learning tools, and should be recognized as such in a society genuinely interested in knowledge, wisdom, and love.
Blessings,
Dave
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
quote:
Originally posted by asstray85:
I agree bear. If you are going to reply to this topic, dont reply on impulse and express your knowlege of drugs, because dmt is different. It is naturally secreted during meditiation, therefor if you take it externally its equivelent to intense meditation.
hey there Steve...
I guess my problem with that outlook is the fact that you achieve a certain state without the discipline which goes along with it.
In other words, through meditation, one learns to listen to their thoughts and their inner voice. As they go deeper and deeper, they may start to experience vivid images, sounds, and other phenomenon. Now, if a person were simply able to smoke/swallow something which would take them right to the vivid images or sounds, this bypasses all the inner discipline that was normally needed to get there.
"So what? If I can get from point A to point C without going to point B, how is that bad?"
I'm not really saying it's bad, persay. To each his own. However, from my own experience, knowing that I had to work hard to achieve this meditative state on my own has allowed me to grow stronger as a spiritually minded person. There is no doubt in my mind that I have made this progress through sheer determination. If I were to have smoked/swallowed something, then there would always be that thought in the back of my mind that this 'substance' contributed to my experience and not me myself.
People will also say, "But taking this drug is no different than buying a hemi-sync tape. Both are external 'tools' used to achieve the same goal."
My only contention with that is that hemi-sync still utilizes a lot of mental control and focus. A lot of these tapes guide a person through the process which one must focus on in order to achieve the right F-level. It has nothing to do with stimulating or introducing chemicals into the body, regardless of what is produced naturally.
Anyway, I'm not perfect. This is just my two cents.
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://MyJokeMail.com
Ahh, the old drug debate....
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGNNNNNNNNNNMMBLAH!!!!!!!!!!
Yes some drugs are very useful to us. If I didn't squirt some unmpronounceable chemical up my nose at the first wiff of Spring, I'd sneeze my head off. If it wasn't for good old Warfrin my father would likely be dead. I'm also familiar with the effects of dope and LSD having used it a bit myself for fun, so I'm not speaking as a unmarried marriage councellor on psychoactive drugs.
To expand on a point of Jeff's:
quote:
"So what? If I can get from point A to point C without going to point B, how is that bad?"
Maybe there was something at point B that you really needed to learn before going on to point C. If your purpose for such drugs is just a quick fix to achieveing a result then fine. If your purpose for achieving that result is anything to do with spiritual growth, then you've just missed the point alltogether. The journey is often more important than the destination.
People have commented about the need for learning in traditional ways when there is the internet with its incredible wealth of information readily available. Trouble is gaining quick access to knowledge does not bring with it the wisdom needed to use such knowledge to full benefit.
As to the fact that such drugs are often used on shamanic practices, well...give a hammer and chisel to a trained and skilled sculpter and you'll have a work of art. Give that hammer & chisel to someone completely untrained and you'll probably have a big mess and a lot of bloody band-aids.
James.
Hi All
My experience with DMT(30 years ago) was similar to what Peaceful described.I smoked it in crysal form for a couple of months:strictly for the rush which is overwhelming.I stopped using it after noticing memory loss,inability to concentrate and spooky times when my brain just sort of drifted off.Hey lets face it: something that powerful has got to be bad for you!If anyone feels the need to open the doors of perception with chemicals, do like Bear says and stick with the plants.It`s a gentler and safer road.I downshifted to the slow lane a long time ago and while I miss gettin rocketed into another dimension at least I can enjoy the scenery along the way.
Happy Trails
coral1
When asked, Terence McKenna said to have had only ONE lucid dream (no OBEs) in his life.
So what did he knew about multidimensionality? I believe his 'back to the caves' theory is irresponsible hedonistic entertainment sustained by rethoric whitout any real contribution to the evolution of consciousness. Or what did he meant by: 'life´s purpose is a big party'? He also theorized that the world ends in 2012 and that mushrooms are actually alien inteligence...
-Daniel
The matter of hallucinogenic drugs seems to be more closed off to me than astral projection seems to be. Am I the only one here who has read about people who used lucid dreams to get drunk and take drugs? Often the "buzz" would have pleasant effects lasting several days. Other people on diets would plan to use lucid dreams to eat their favorite foods rather than doing so in the physical. It is hard to accept that someone who has never used hallucinogenic drugs can have a lucid dream about using them, but it is actually much better this way. Imagination can provide a much better experience than reality for most things.
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel:
When asked, Terence McKenna said to have had only ONE lucid dream (no OBEs) in his life.
So what did he knew about multidimensionality? I believe his 'back to the caves' theory is irresponsible hedonistic entertainment sustained by rethoric whitout any real contribution to the evolution of consciousness. Or what did he meant by: 'life´s purpose is a big party'? He also theorized that the world ends in 2012 and that mushrooms are actually alien inteligence...
Daniel, you should read the source, not some distorted reductionist attack on McKenna that probably comes from a debunker's webiste; each of the ideas you mentioned has been mangled or taken out of context. Are you a professional disinformationist?
McKenna had no "back to the caves" theory. Rather, he believed that our modern yearnings toward neo-tribalism are a nostalgic longing for the timeless golden age of prehistory, during which humans regularly took part in mushroom ceremonies, and lived in an eternal, loving, spontaneous, orgiastic moment. He never theorized the world would end in 2012; rather, his Timewave software seems to indicate that in 2012 -- along with the beginning of the next Mayan calendar -- there will be a single, defining moment, perhaps the anomaly of anomalies, which he calls the "eschaton", or end of time. This in no way means the world ends, merely that it ends as we know it. It could be that time travel is dicovered, for instance, which would have profound effects on group awareness. McKenna believed that all of history was a psychic resonance of this central moment. Seems like an interesting idea, and you display a hidebound nature by so casually dismissing it.
Also, McKenna had many, many astral experiences; that he only admits to one lucid dream and one OBE (you say) means nothing. I've read his experiences, and understand that he indeed traveled interdimensionally on a regular basis. His own technique was more akin to phasing. So what?
There are compelling reasons to believe that mushrooms are "alien" in nature and intelligence. For one thing, they give us an experience of something so completely other that, once you've taken them a few times, you understand what McKenna and others meant by this assertion. Also, the spores are capable of traveling through space, and conceivably arrived on our planet from somewhere else.
Besides, why should there be anything wrong with him making such claims? You're really one to talk -- someone who hangs out on a bbs devoted to astral travel. Is that any less "strange" or "unbelievable" than the idea of aliens, or an eschaton?
You have no understanding of Mckenna's theories, and I suggest you either read his works or avoid discussing them
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
quote:
Originally posted by Rolling Bear:
That's an extreme oversimplification, Frank.
Yep, you can't get things too simple where I'm concerned.
Funny, I was reading a story today about how, decades ago, NASA discovered pens were useless in space. So, to solve the problem, they hired Anderson Consulting. It took them ten years and twelve million dollars to come up with a solution. They devised a pen which worked at zero gravity; upside down; under water; and on practically any surface: in temps ranging from below freezing to around 100 degs C.
At the same time the Russians were beginning their own space program and had the same "useless pen" problem. They solved it by using a pencil.
Yours,
Frank
quote:
Originally posted by Frank:
Yep, you can't get things too simple where I'm concerned.
Frank, you imply that "simple" is always better. Is that so? And if so, why?
quote:
Originally posted by Frank:
...NASA discovered pens were useless in space. ...It took them ten years and twelve million dollars to come up with a solution. ...At the same time the Russians were beginning their own space program and had the same "useless pen" problem. They solved it by using a pencil.
Your "pencil" metaphor is inapplicable to the topic under discussion, which is: are so-called "external" triggers, such as some psychotropic agents, useful in the pursuit of non-physical exploration? Or are so-called "natural" induction methods by definition preferable?
You may be as simple as you wish, but please try to address the topic at hand.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
quote:
Daniel, you should read the source, not some distorted reductionist attack on McKenna that probably comes from a debunker's webiste; each of the ideas you mentioned has been mangled or taken out of context. Are you a professional disinformationist?
Out of context? Next, you´ll say to not take McKenna's ideas so literally because what he realy ment...
Unfortunately there was a time that I ( in my ingenuity) read McKennas books. So, the ideas that I mentioned are mine and in my limited life understanding I just can´t take McKennas work seriously. Take no offence but I will simply quote your sentence to illustrate the reason for this.
quote:
Rather, he believed that our modern yearnings toward neo-tribalism are a nostalgic longing for the timeless golden age of prehistory, during which humans regularly took part in mushroom ceremonies, and lived in an eternal, loving, spontaneous, orgiastic moment.
btw, who´s modern yearnings? And the rest, what does it all mean? Or is it just romantic new age poetry?
The extraction process for dmt seems very annoying, and i wouldnt want to mess it up. I have made up my mind to buy H.B Woodrose seeds and extract the LSA from it which is similar to LSD and experimenting with that during meditation. Theres alot of positive information of LSA and if i dont want to extract it i could just eat 10 seeds for a full flege trip, compared to 200-300 morning glory seeds required for an equivelent result. Im ordering the seeds tommorow night and will try it out when i get it in the mail. It is alot easier to obtain and extract compared to DMT and is a friendlier version of lsd. I will tell everyone how it works out. I smoke pot frequently and it gives me the ability to distinctly feel energy in my body and move it around, yes it has caused me to not even bother to try when i am not high, but at least ive gotten a taste of it and when i am practicing without pot i know what to expect. I feel other drugs can do the same. I dont know who mentioned that dmt causes brain damage, but if that was true then everyone who practiced intense meditation on a regular basis would be causing themselves harm as well i would suppose?.
-Steve
Hi Steve,
The bad cognitive side effects I experienced came from taking large doses of a pure drug: way more than the brain produces during meditation.It`s the chemical overload that produces the result.
Anyway I wish you success with your explorations.Maybe you could find someone to act as your guide.It`s reassuring to have somebody there who`s done these things before.As for cooking up your own internet potion take care. Best to give the first dose to the cat or the dog. If you gotta scape them off the ceiling you`ll know your on the right track!
Happy Trails
coral1
drugs just suck, ok
Ah, I guess I'll quote James here: ARRRRHGHTHGHGHBLEAH. The old drug debate.
Where do I fit in? Both "sides" actually, having "been there." I really do see. I'm taking the time here now to explain why most of you should not touch the stuff . . . not now, at least.
Native tribespeople ingested mushrooms and other plants for spiritual guidance/change. They didn't hide out in their mud huts and tipis and secretly experiment alone with plants that were banned by their communities. Rather, they saw the plants as actual beings, and "communicated" or "shared their being" with them under the watchful eyes of skilled medicine men/women, as part of serious shamanic-type training. This training "changed" them, and the community welcomed this change as important and necessary.
What I'm trying to say here is that this issue needs to be viewed in its CONTEXT. Think of the way tribespeople lived their lives, the way they viewed reality. Compare and contrast this to your ordinary modern life and the way YOU AND YOUR COMMUNITY live and experience reality. Big difference, eh?
However, if my ramblings leave you un-moved, and you feel you MUST attempt a drug-induced psychedelic experience, please avoid the man-made drugs and try mushrooms instead. Mushrooms really are intelligent, alien, happy (even goofy) beings who will teach you many lessons, most of which you never expected or even felt you wanted. These lessons might cause you much suffering . . . but then again you asked for it, right?
Because you see . . . please never let go of the Truth that wherever you go, THERE YOU ARE. You, with all your psychic BAGGAGE. Mushrooms, or any other psychedelic drug, won't make you spiritual. To the contrary: they will simply turn on the amplifier and big screen for you and THERE IT ALL WILL BE IN SCREAMING TECHNICOLOR for you to deal with.
Which can be a good lesson sometimes. Sometimes you need that. It took a serious miscalculation (I won't say overdose) of mushrooms for me to "get" this lesson many many many moons ago. I pressed on with my experimentation because I felt the mushrooms were important to my spiritual growth. They were . . . not for the psychedelic experiences themselves, but for the hard, unexpected lessons that came from using them.
Now I don't touch any drug that doesn't come from a pharmacy. I know that i I can reach my mental/spiritual objectives without chemical interference. Nowadays, when I get a spiritual "lesson" it is given to me at the level that I can actually take. I like that.
Tisha
"As Above, So Below"
Well said, Tisha. =)
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://MyJokeMail.com
RollingBear-
You know, it's hard to get under my skin, but you have officially succeeded. Please never mis-quote me again. If you don't know, the acronym JK stands for "just kidding", that is what I wrote after I jokingly called McKenna a "crackhead". While Imight have been over doing it a little by calling him that, when you quote me and then leave out the other part it simply makes me look ignorant and mean....and then you took it further by stating, in your own words, that I had done exactly that...
TO make things worse, in your quote you also make it sound like I used DMT, and from my postyou can see that I was quoting someone else.
Please don't let your passion for illegal drugs cloud your mind so much that you twist other peoples words.
fides quaerens intellectum
Peaceful Warrior, take responsibility for your own muddled post. Don't assume that every Internet user knows every acronym; it's arrogant. Also, the meaning of your first paragraph is unclear, for it seems to indicate that you've used DMT. Reread it and see for yourself. Further, I didn't intentionally change the meaning of your post, I used ellipses to shorten it, keeping the meaning intact as far as I understood it from the way in which you constructed your sentences. Your final statement is absurd, because I have never demonstrated on this bbs a passion for drugs, legal or otherwise. While I have experience with psychotropic substances, I haven't used any recently, and don't need to, having learned what I need from them. Rather, I merely seek a fair appraisal of their benefits as spiritual aids, without the sort of reactionary rhetoric inculcated by generations of robot-producing disinformation. Your piece is charged, filled with condescending absolutes and naive simplifications. Also, it is nowhere clear that anyone is being quoted. Traditionally, quotation marks or some other means of identification are used to designate a quoted passage. Also, it is customary to include the name of the source. Perhaps you should reconsider the substance and presentation of your essay, and seek to recast it in a more friendly and fathomable manner.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
I[/i[ understood what PeacefulWarrior meant when he put "JK" after his statement, he meant "ha ha, not literally of course" - if you didn't understand that it's your problem. I noticed right away that you edited the "JK" out when you quoted him, then accused him of meaning it literally. Now that you know he was kidding, I would've thought you might want to apologise, but you just ignore it.
Regardless of what you might know on this or other topics, your behavior makes it hard to take you seriously.
Bear-
First of all, I apologize for being contentious as it never acheives anything, however I stand by the fact that you misquoted me. Secondly, I did add a reference to the quote from erowid that I posted.
Just for your information, I am not spitting out disinformation. I have used psylocibin a few times and I must admit that this plant based psychoactive substance did actually teach me something: not to abuse drugs.
You would be lying to yourself to say that you are not passionate about some of these chemicals:
"Asstray, DMT and beta-carboline compounds (such as in Syrian rue and passionflower) can indeed be useful tools when used in the proper safe, comfortable set and setting, and with the help of experienced human guides. When combined (as in ayahuasca), the DMT and beta-carboline containing plants can produce amazing results..."
or
"There are compelling reasons to believe that mushrooms are "alien" in nature and intelligence. For one thing, they give us an experience of something so completely other that, once you've taken them a few times, you understand what McKenna and others meant by this assertion."
I think there is something to be said for McKennas work, but no one doubts who was passionate about "drugs"...and you seem to know quite a lot about him and you state yourself that you agree with much of what he claimed.
I think your ideas are interesting...but as you can see, most of the people in here are more interested in more self-sufficient means to gain transcendental experiences.
-Daniel
fides quaerens intellectum
Funny how this drugs debate often crops up. :)
I suppose, ultimately, the point that stands out in my mind (as the analogy of the pen demonstrates) intaking potentially harmful substances... not only that, many of these substances are highly illegal class-A drugs... to induce astral projection is, to my way of thinking, using the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Also, I happened to be reading a report the other week which gave the official figure of 3.5 million people in the UK (pop. 59 million) who regularly take hard, i.e. class A drugs. I suspect the true figure is even higher.
It's nice to dream of some rosy picture of Shamans in days of old; or talking about taking these susbtances only where they are legal (someone tell me a place any sane person would want to live where hard drugs are legal) and taken in the company of responsible, knowledgeable people. But there is no such reality.
The hard fact of the matter is these substances are dangerously addictive and can have disastrous consequences. Consider that well over half of all street-crime and burglary in the UK is committed by addicts stealing money for their next fix. Which is just one example of the destruction and devastation they bring to people.
Yours,
Frank
quote:
Originally posted by Jacara:
I[/i[ understood what PeacefulWarrior meant when he put "JK" after his statement, he meant "ha ha, not literally of course" - if you didn't understand that it's your problem. I noticed right away that you edited the "JK" out when you quoted him, then accused him of meaning it literally. Now that you know he was kidding, I would've thought you might want to apologise, but you just ignore it.
Regardless of what you might know on this or other topics, your behavior makes it hard to take you seriously.
Why is it my problem if I didn't understand him? Since when is the burden of comprehension entirely the reader's? If this were universally the case, then incomprehensibility would be the norm for both writing and reading, and no one would understand anything. No, Jacara, PW was not communicating well. Perhaps by the arcane standards of some slang-talking Internet in-group, of which you seem to be a member, but not by what normally passes for written conversation among a courteous, serious group.
Furthermore, I don't believe PW when he says he was "just kidding." If so, why did he mount in the first place what seems to be a nasty ad hominem attack on McKenna? And if he wanted me to know that he hasn't used DMT, then why did he discuss DMT use in the very sentence in which he admits to using and studying psychedlics? Another thing: Where were the quotation marks and reference? Without attribution, we can only assume PW is speaking of his own experiences.
I see that he has made what amount to slanderous remarks. He accuses me of lying to myself about not possessing a "passion for drugs." Not only did I repeatedly state that my interests lie with plants -- not drugs -- but I pointed out to him that my interest in the matter is one of considering plant-aids impartially instead of with the typical witch-burning mentality so prevalent in a society conditioned to accept the legislation of consciousness.
Finally, I care not whether you take me seriously; you will dispense your opinions as is your whim, and that is of little concern to me. As to PW's contention that I shouldn't air my thoughts in an environment stacked against them, I find this dangerously totalitarian and conformist, and note that the belief of a majority does not by default equal a correct belief.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
quote:
Originally posted by Frank:
The hard fact of the matter is these substances are dangerously addictive and can have disastrous consequences. Consider that well over half of all street-crime and burglary in the UK is committed by addicts stealing money for their next fix. Which is just one example of the destruction and devastation they bring to people.
Frank, do your homework before you speak. There is no "fact" that psychotropic drugs are addictive. The fact is that they are the least addictive of all known drugs and plants; in fact, they are completely non-addicting. Mostly, too, they aren't even habit-forming. Sugar, coffee, tea, alcohol, refined cocaine products, refined and synthetic opiates -- these are the substances to pay attention to if addiction is your concern. Regarding psychotropics, shamanic practitioners tend to use them only very infrequently, as religious sacraments, and in ritual settings. Furthermore, some psychedelics are physically safer than aspirin: pure LSD-25, for example. As references for the above statements I cite Wasson, Lilly, Weil, Grof, Tart, Ring, Krippner, Bakalar & Grimspoon, and McKenna. Several of these individuals hold Ph.Ds in their respective fields, and are experts whereof they speak. Please do not pontificate on the subject of the sacramental and shamanic use of psychotropics before you have thoroughly explored the issue.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
I must concur with Rolling Bear on the non-addicting nature of the plants being discussed. I don't, however, concur with the crankiness of some of these posts. What a waste of energy! Everyone hold hands, take a deep cleansing breath . . . . there.
Perhaps we could create a Myths and Facts sheet for the website, or provide an educational link. The "drug topic" comes up often on this site and I'd hate to go round and round on this issue with the newcomers every 3 months . . .
Tisha
"As Above, So Below"
I still think I had an interesting point about using lucid dreams and / or astral projection to simulate taking drugs. It worked for me when I tried it, although the opportunities do not come along very often for me. Doesn't anyone have something to say on this variation on using drugs without ingesting them?
Hey Tom :-)
I usually smoke marijuana on a regular basis and its the only drug ive ever used and i notice that if i dont smoke for a week or so i start having extremely vivid dreams where i feel like i just smoked a hella lot. Even after the dream ends i wake up feeling high. Ive read that it is common but my judgement tells me it is the thc being brought back into my blood stream while i burn fat in my sleep. Since thc attatches to fat cells that is the only reasonable conclusion to why that might happen.
-Steve
That still does not explain the really interesting LSD experience I dreamed about having before I'd even ever been drunk in waking life. It was better than any actual drug could have been and I felt really good for a few days. Actual drugs would have been easier, but dreaming about being high did not have the same sorts of side effects.
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
That still does not explain the really interesting LSD experience I dreamed about having before I'd even ever been drunk in waking life. It was better than any actual drug could have been and I felt really good for a few days. Actual drugs would have been easier, but dreaming about being high did not have the same sorts of side effects.
Fascinating, Tom. I too have had tremendously powerful dream-psychedelic experiences, which is one of the things that convinced me the experience is "in me", not in a drug or plant -- the drug is just a trigger. One theory about how LSD affects us says that the chemical leaves the system within about fifteen minutes, having triggered our brain's own DMT. I think that, as Steve suggests, actions of the pineal gland may be one of the keys linking dreaming, OBEs, and psychedelic experiences of various sorts. Years ago I had a dream-psychedelic experience not unlike the one you've mentioned: I dreamed I was in the Sonoran desert eating peyote, and Mescalito came hopping up to me. He said, "I am the original ancient alien hippy, and I bring you this gift." With that, he bestowed on me a strange instrument that was rather like an accordian, but with more facets; it operated directly on the energy of my chakras, translating it into exquisite music more comlex than any earthly orchestra could play. I awoke, realizing I'd been given a dream of power...a shamanic dream. Yet at that time I'd never eaten peyote!
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
quote:
Originally posted by Tisha:
I must concur with Rolling Bear on the non-addicting nature of the plants being discussed. I don't, however, concur with the crankiness of some of these posts. What a waste of energy! Everyone hold hands, take a deep cleansing breath . . . . there.
Problem is, Tisha, we are talking here about psychotropic drugs and psychotropic plants. The two are *very* different. It may well be that plants containing psychotropic agents would be non-addictive. They'd more than likely make you very sick after the first few leaves and branch. :)
But to quote Dave, he said: "There is no "fact" that psychotropic drugs are addictive."
The unfortunate fact is that psychotropic drugs are highly addictive. Not only that, given incorrect doseage they can be potentially fatal. Hence the reason why all psychotropic drugs are strictly controlled world-wide.
Dave further went on to say, and I quote, "The fact is that they are the least addictive of all known drugs and plants; in fact, they are completely non-addicting."
Again, I ask are we talking here about psychotropic drugs or merely plants that contain psychotropic agents?
Yours,
Frank
One of the things about LSD, mescaline, and psilocybin is that as pure chemicals or impure mixtures they quickly cause a tolerance to build up and even a cross-tolerance. Mescaline use can cause psilocybin to be less effective. Fortunately, the tolerance goes away as quickly as it develops if the drug use is not sustained pas the point where the dosages are ridiculous. Even so, I have only heard about one over-dose: the elephant that was given LSD based on total body mass. It is probably possible to develop a psychological addiction to hallucinogenic drugs as pure compounds or from plants. It is even possible to get psychologically hooked on meditative or trance states and to cause energy imbalances, though. Anything taken to excess is bad and what constitutes excess will vary from person to person. Some people are really sensitive to even minor drugs like caffeine to the point where they have an allergic reaction from decaffeinated coffee (which still has a small amount left). The arguments that it is not possible to get hooked on hallucinogens are based on the idea that it usually takes a lot more work than with other drugs like marijuana, alcohol, and caffeine to sustain their use over time. What I want to see here is a discussion based not on whether it is ethical to take drugs or on why most people should not take them because of the few who are not equipped for whatever reason. Please talk about how to go about using drugs like DMT correctly and about what sorts of goals might be accomplished under their influence.
FRANK, psychotropic drugs and plants are non-addictive, and mostly non-habit-forming. They are not illegal because of addiction concerns; the reasons for their illegality are far more complex, but have to do essentially with ways of controlling our states of mind. Psychedelics are powerful disinhibiting agents; they often trigger in the user a sense of the illusory nature of things, including ideas closely held by society, such as "being a consumer is good," "everyone should be a wage-earner," and "don't question your government." When people were using these substances in the 1960s, on a wide scale and with group support instead of group reprobation, people were becoming empowered, realizing that they didn't need to be puppets of government, religion, and industry. This was unacceptable to the powers, who need a stable work-force of mind-slaves to make the economy function. So the US Government, at least, came down heavy on the psychedelics, creating lies about the substances, many of which they later retracted when science exposed them as disinformation. There are other reasons why psychedelics are outlawed, but it's a complex subject, something I don't have time to go into, but I can assure you, Frank, that addiction had nothing to do with it. Heroin and cocaine are addicting. Coffee and sugar even more so, but you don't see their use attached to heavy prison sentences, do you? That's because they are societally-sanctioned as good robot drugs: they keep us working, consuming, and not questioning the basic order.
TOM, I couldn't agree more with your excellent point. I believe the Church of the Tree of Life has made some significant advances into this area (proper use), and of course there are many native traditions, but mostly in our society there is such a gulf between the spiritualist and drug communities that little meaningful dialogue ever takes place. The spiritualists tend toward Emerson's notion of "doing it without wine," whereas the drug and plant users often feel that, "if it ain't illegal, it don't work." Extremism on both sides, fueled by the propogandists running our "war on drugs." They couldn't be happier that we have such splits, or that we argue about these subjects. Their agenda is to control us through division and fear.
If used correctly, in the proper setting, with guidance, preparation, and the support of the local community, many psychotropic plants and drugs are nothing to fear, and have much to teach us about spirit, no-time, love, and the interconnectedness of life. Those of us who know are aware that the experiences tend to be so powerful that they take time to be integrated, and leave little desire for immediate repetition.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
Excuse me . . . did I just read that someone gave LSD to an elephant? Now THAT should be illegal.
Tisha, are you telling me that you have not heard about the experiments which were done on LSD? People were given the drug, too, without their informed consent. A certain government had a certain military type organization who wanted to know how soldiers would react to LSD, and if the experiment had gone well the idea was to use it on enemy soldiers. Yes, the elephant died. It seems that it was the elephant's brain which should have been taken into consideration rather than just the weight of the whole body.
Rolling Bear-
I just want to say one last thing to you regarding this topic. First of all, I didn't mean to come off the way you thought I did. I meant the whole "crackhead" thing to be taken lightly. Obviously you took it very seriously, and I apologize that I didn't realize how serious you take this topic.
Second, while psychotropic plants can indeed be fascinating in their own right, I concur with the cliche that they are "a dead end". Study, meditation and prayer are the only true ways to open the doors to truth. As I admitted earlier, I have studied and expiremented with plant based ethogens and I declare that lucid dreaming and astral projection are SO MUCH more fun and enlightening than any of the experiences I had with mushrooms or LSD. In fact, I would go as far as to say that psychoactive drugs put me in the lower astral and the main thing they taught me was to stay away from them.
In conclusion, I have no beef with you. Please don't think I was or am personally attacking you. You are obviously an intelligent and informed person, and the only thing that has upset me is your highly defensive online personality.
Oh, and by the way, at least you know what "JK" stands for...and I was familiar with this acronym long before I used the net, it's really fairly common.
fides quaerens intellectum
I've had excellent times with and without hallucinogenic substances, completely different experiences but equally brilliant nonetheless.
Everyone is different so there is no correct or incorrect way to gain access to higher realms, its just what works for the individual.
I also do not beleive that some of these substances are illegal because they are dangerous to us, the governments that ban these substances don't want the population finding too much out so ban them under the pretence that they are doing us a favour protecting us from these 'harmful' drugs, allowing drugs like alcohol to remain legal.
Find your own path!
PW, you've written a very clear post and a thoughtful, sincere apology, for which I respect you; you've lived up to your user name in an honorable fashion. I accept your apology, and I apologize for upsetting you.
May we agree to disagree about the use of certain drugs/plants as psychic triggers? For I believe that, used properly, they have much to teach us and can take us a long way. I agree that it is a good thing to learn to "do it" without them, but I also think that there's nothing wrong (aside from issues of legality) with continuing to use the plants all one's life in the appropriate social/religious context, as with ayahuasco or virola snuff among the Amazonian Indians, or peyote in the Native American Church, or mushrooms by Mexican shamans. I believe that the levels one may achieve with these methods may be every bit as profound as with means such as meditation, and that neither method is 'better" or "worse"; however, I do believe that it's very practical to learn to do it without external tiggers, simply because this frees one up from having to score, worry about the cops, dosages, etc. Both methods have benefits and drawbacks to my mind. So...may we agree to disagree?
Blessings,
Dave
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
Hello Folks ! may I wade in to this entertaining debate.... There are a few points I'd like to summarise :
1) Peacefulwarrior's post detailing the diary of an individual who used drugs, with some quite bad effects.
2) The fact that these drugs are generally illegal. Hmmm...I wonder why.
3) The fact that using a drug TAKES AWAY SOME ASPECT OF THE CONTROL OF THE EXPERIENCE.
And BTW its nice to see someone with balls who isn't afraid of insulting other people on the boards ! Yes, I mean you Rolling bear ! Your posts have been quite entertaining ! : )
But surely, you don't actually believe that Terence McKenna stuff ?!! Its rubbish !
ps - I have a calender that is far more accurate than the Maya ever had - its at the bottom right corner of my screen. And you don't see me going around making predictions about the end of the world now do you ?!
Mark
quote:
2) The fact that these drugs are generally illegal. Hmmm...I wonder why.
Why do you think they are illegal? Dangerous to us? Dangerous to society? Dangerous to the status quo?
Maybe our governments don't want us all getting enlightened.
Alcohol is legal and just as dangerous (probably more dangerous) than some of these banned substances.
As Bill Hicks once said:
" Go back to bed America, your government is in control, keep drinking beer, here's some American Gladiators for you!"
As far as I see it-
OBE - fantastic
mushroom experiences - fantastic
LSD - OK but not nearly as powerful.
Both OBE and mushroom journeys have left me with fantastic memories and the drive to find out more.
Oh and by the way, read McKenna's Food Of The Gods...surely it cannot be simply dismissed as rubbish??
Hi Alivie, hows it going ? you asked :
"Why do you think they are illegal? Dangerous to us? Dangerous to society? Dangerous to the status quo?"
I think that you have answered your own question for me !!! I would have to say all 3, mixed together. But dangerous to Status Quo, that legendary '80's guitar outfit ?! surely not.
Seriously though, I tend not to subscribe to conspiracy-type views on subjects :
"Maybe our governments don't want us all getting enlightened."
....I admit they are very attractive and make good reading, but there is not enough evidence to back them up - which is why they remain conspiracies.
Fair enough on your last point though :
"As far as I see it-
OBE - fantastic
mushroom experiences - fantastic
LSD - OK but not nearly as powerful.
Both OBE and mushroom journeys have left me with fantastic memories and the drive to find out more."
It's up to you if you decide to try drugs; good to see that you have had great experiences with them. But I think that society generally has the right idea in banning them.
regards,
Mark
quote:
Originally posted by Rolling Bear:
FRANK, psychotropic drugs and plants are non-addictive
Dave, I'd begin to make a clear distinction between drugs and plants if I were you. I've got two of my old lecturer buddies and my ex-professor waiting to take money from you. And that's in addition to the half-million GBP I bet for when you walk on water next year.
quote:
They are not illegal because of addiction concerns; the reasons for their illegality are far more complex, but have to do essentially with ways of controlling our states of mind.
The drugs in question would not be Psychotropic if they did not effect our state of mind. As such, they cannot not have addiction concerns.
quote:
They often trigger in the user a sense of the illusory nature of things, including ideas closely held by society, such as "being a consumer is good," "everyone should be a wage-earner," and "don't question your government.
Dave, I've said before that often your vernacular is hard for me to follow, but here we concur. Consumerism, particularly north-American style consumerism, has always been to my complete distaste.
But as to being a wage-earner, well, my wife and myself are both wage-earners. Which is obviously not to your taste but my wife and I (and all our neighbours I should hasten to add) think it's far better than robbing people for a living. As I say, over 50% of all street crime and burglary in the UK is commited by addicts wanting their next fix.
Yours,
Frank
hey people
A few quick points....
Anyone who disagrees that drugs can have positive, lasting, psychological effects - even beneficial spiritual effects - go and do some research on Ibogaine. I plan to take some in the future, when the time is right. Amazing stuff by all accounts.
I have heard the old "short cut" argument many times now, but as I think has already been remarked, it is only a means to an end. There any many many paths you can take, this is just one of them.
Also, I have to say that I have tried ketamine, and it made me realise that reality really isn't that real, being much more fluid and oddly subjectivel than everyday experience suggests. I also have friend who takes the stuff regularly and is really quite screwed up because of it
*MODERATION* is the key.
I honestly cannot stress that enough.
Regular intake of any drugs is a bad thing.
But trying some drugs just once, is also a bad thing (eg in my very limited experience, exstacy). So start small, get your sea legs, and then try a larger dose.
However, there are no absolutes, ESPECIALLY on a topic as subject as drug use. One persons heaven turns into another persons hell. Again, we each can only find our own way. Eyes sharp though!
As for why it is illegal?? Well, and I hate absolutes just in general, but I have to say that anybody who thinks the reasons are for the good of the population, simply has not done their homework. Making drugs illegal, as has been proved many times, does not decrease usage - it increases it (eg decriminalisation in switzerland, usage statistics on amsterdam compared to america, the effects of alcohol prohibition in america, etc etc etc). Faced with such evidence, ALL arguments to keep drugs illegal fall flat on their face.
What making them illegal does do, however, is increase the prices....hmm. It also forms huge devides between drugs users, and those who don't use drugs. Reinforced by media bulls**t, this gap grows wider and wider. And from here you only plunge head-long into conspiracy theories so I'll keep retreat back into my corner mumbling about the end of the world and reptilians if you all don't mind....hehehe
-------
Rob
-------
seperation = bad
coming together = good
Did someone question the intellegence of terreance McKenna? I read a couple of his books and have a few hour of him speaking on tape and that guy is brilliant! Art Bell used to say that he was not a poster child for the bad effects of drugs on mental ability. About addiction- he used to say that you really had to brace yourself for the DMT experience-it was not something you did for kicks. I can personally attest o the fact that the more mushrooms you did the less you felt it. What I find interesting is that with DMT a lot of people seemed to go to the same place and see the same thing. I wonder if experienced astral traverlers have recognized the place?
For those who cannot resist trying to inject nitro into their finely tuned machines, (speaking figuratively, there, of course), and for those who find it might not be going so well, I would like to write a few quotes, (especially on love, which is what you'll be needing...perhaps even desparately), from "The Lazy Man's Guide to Enlightenment.":
******************************
What am I doing on a level of consciousness where this is real?
No resistance.
Love it the way it is.
Love as much as you can from wherever you are.
Whether I feel it or not, I am one with all the love in the universe.
Go beyond reason to love: it is safe. It is the only safety.
Whatever you are doing, love yourself for doing it.
When you learn to love hell, you will be in heaven.
**************************************************************
Love, and good luck, (whoever you are),
--Paukki
quote:
Originally posted by asstray85
I agree bear. If you are going to reply to this topic, dont reply on impulse and express your knowlege of drugs, because dmt is different. It is naturally secreted during meditiation, therefor if you take it externally its equivelent to intense meditation. So It would never ruin your control, I tried to explain before but i guess some people didnt get it.
-Steve
Steve, have you tried DMT? With all due respect it doesn't sound like it. I tried it some years ago, it was the last drug I tried and I haven't done any since. I did lose control - totally. I don't understand how you can make a generalization like that. I'm not at all against DMT or any other psychedelic substance or experience. I just know from personal experience that it is FULLY INTENSE to say the least and it shouldn't be taken lightly. "therefor if you take it externally its equivelent to intense meditation." - I think anyone who's taken a full dose or even less of DMT would agree that this is not true. It is not like an intense meditation - so beyond it. I blacked out because it was too powerful and in my face. It will really blow you away in a split second so please don't go around advocating something if you haven't tried it yourself.
Respectfully,
11
Acctually, (replying to some earlier posts) DMT increases preformance of neurological pathways of the brain, enhancing, preformance..
http://www.akasha.de/~aton/NeoDMT.html
heres a good article.
quote:
Originally posted by asstray85
...LSD messes with your head, you see and hear things that simply arent there, imaghes, sounds, etc, created by your brain, and of course the possiblility of a spiritual experience. DMT on the other hand is purely spiritual...
Just to clear this up, - The chemical composition of DMT and LSD are very similar which is why they have a simialr effect. They both do a whammy on the pineal gland. The pineal gland (located near the top-middle of the brain) is considered by consciousness sorts to be the "seat-of-the-soul", i.e. where consciousness resides. It's no coincidence that it's location in the brain coincides with where the Crown Chakra is. The pineal is extremely sensative to chemical effects and has a membrane around it that regulates very closely what chemicals can come into contact with the pineal. Typically, seratonin (mood regulator) is about all that can get through this membrane. The body does produce tiny amounts of DMT (maybe even produced by the pineal) but nowhere near what you would get by actually smoking, injecting (experiments were done on this in the 60s) or drinking DMT (in the form of Ayahuasca or another concoction). Apparently, however, chemicals classified as "tryptamines" (DMT and LSD both) can fool the membrane around the pineal and once acting upon this gland create a variety of similar effects. So to say one is hallucinagenic and the other, spiritual, is not founded in science or research certainly.
There's a book (look on Amazon) called "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" by an MD named Rick Strassman - in which he discusses clinical research in the 60s done to evaluate the effects of DMT and to evaluate it's potential benefits in the area of psychotherapy. Essentially he had a variety of volunteers, all familiar with use of hallucinagens, and he injected them with increasing doses of DMT in a research environment. Injecting DMT produced a fast, hard trip. Milder doses just caused hallucinations and larger doeses caused the participants to perceive that they had "transcended" reality or left their bodies. Many reported coming into contact with "beings", who in many cases seemed to know them, and often acted surprised to see them (as in "what the heck are you doing here, now"). Surprisingly, the forms that these beings took tended to fall into three categories; aliens, insects, and clowns!?
Another book I read, "Ayahuasca: Human Consciousness and the Spirits of Natures", by Ralph Metzner, Ph.D. discussed the effects of DMT on dozens of people who used Ayahuasca as part of a South American religious ritual. Those he interviewed were mainly Americans who went to South America to participate in such a ritual. Since they consumed it in the form of a drink, their "trips" had a slower onset and laster longer. And because of the setting (spiritual ritual) and their expection (it was described to them as the "serpent" drug and they were told to expect visions of snakes and serpents) they typically reported more mystical results involving serpents and snakes. (Makes one wonder whether it's reputation as "the serpent" is a psychological association to the snake in the Garden of Eden being the bearer of knowledge, since this brew also is reputed to bring one to greater knowledge of themself, but I digress) Typically these visions were interepreted as connecting them to some sort of divine power in order to help them work through some sort of issues they were having in their lives. The participants generally all had very positive reviews of the experience.
Anyway, - interesting books.[:)]
Why care if some doctor says its harmless!
And btw... shamans have used DMT for generations...yes, but it has only been used to make their new brothers or sisters understand the illusion of reality. Not a partydrug, but a drug to make ppl understand the nature of reality.
So, its not something you take just like that.
But then again, some may want to use drugs to stimulate their spiritual connection, i dont.
People have even reported beeing more intelligent when taking LSD.
They can do better at tests when they are high on LSD.
LSD is a very good drug for other purposes also, but then again... if you have something in your DNA that says "schizofrenia" it may be triggered when taking LSD.
I think the same goes foes for DMT, it is harmless for the general population and for the shamans, but for others with different DNA structure than the shamans has, it may trigger some "strange behavior of personality" when taking DMT.
This is just a thought, im not scaring someone to not use DMT.
Most of us have alot of interferens from the radiowaves, electronic equipments, chemicals in water, cellphones etc etc, some live in societies that push people under water(supress the spiritual connection).
If you are a person living in the rocks on some really offworld place up in the mountains, you then dont need any drug at all, heck..you dont even have to practice like a rabbit on ice.
But if you live where most people do nowdays.. in the hightech society.. some may need drugs to disconnect themselves or disrupt the interferens from the stuff that hits the bodies all day.
Some wants to use drugs, some dont... and some wants to tell people not to do drugs, and some wants everyone to take drugs.
Like with everything, trust yourself.
i dont think frank has an idea of what psychotropic drugs are :S
addicts.. fixes?!
huh jesus christ.. yahhh right..
but yah heroine and crack and cocaine are psychotropic.. so is caffeine and alcohol.
but i dont think we are talking about cocaine, heroin and crack here, now are we? wich would be kinda bad.. and they are addictive and they commit crimes for them... but i never heard of people doing crimes for their mushrooms?! I can get them legally here cheap :D holland 4 life
DMT has been the catalyst for me in all my searching for "truth". The fact that I am attempting to AP and the new direction that my life is taking was all brought about by a DMT revelation.
Speculation is useless when talking about DMT, the experience i would describe as total ego loss followed by some sort of molten bliss. On the other hand Ive seen a friend absolutely horrified by his first experience, maybe this has something to do with his emotional state similar to 'bad' trips on LSD. Labelling it 'harmless' is in a sense incorrect, but taken at the appropriate initial dosage and the right state of mind should lead you into and experience that is mind-blowingly beautiful. Some say it is too amazing and too beautiful, that their lives seems painfully mundayne in comparison. But the experience only lasts for 5-15 minutes and I forget most of what I percieved, im left feeling recalibrated and assured that there is an intelligence out there. One that is far more amazing and affectionate than I could ever cognitively imagine.
quote:
Originally posted by Tom
It is still not obvious to me how to get DMT cheaply and without legal troubles. It is not enough to know that I produce it in my pineal gland and that I can find it in plants in South America
shamanshop.net sells the grass. instructions on how to make it are easily found. The Vaults of Erowid also has some great info on it.
Xander
DMT is a drug that is completely harmless. Our body produces the chemical and it stimulates to pineal gland, which means instant obe's, energy raising, communication with spirits, etc, etc. It is called the spirit molecule by many. I recommend if your reading this to do some research on the topic. Shamans have used it for generations, to induce instant spiritual journeys, etc. All of which arent altered experiences like lsd and such drugs give you. DMT is produced while meditating from what i have read. You have to do research to fully understand the drug. DMT is illegal because it has a possibility for abuse, but it can be extracted many ways.
Heres some sites where you can start learning about it more...
http://fusionanomaly.net/dmt.html
http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/index.html
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml -Tons of info
http://www.brainmachines.com/dmtv2.html
http://peyote.com/jonstef/dmt.htm
Theres 2 main types of dmt theres nn-dmt and theres 5-MeO-DMT. You have to do research to disifer the differences. I am unsure.
I am not completely knowlegable of the drug, but if people can use these resources, and mabye get a working extraction plan off the internet.
http://www.spiritplants.com/articles/DMT.htm
theres a site with some extraction info. Seems complicated but it might not be what we need. I read that 5-MeO-DMT can be bought off the internet because it is less severe as far as psychadelic from nn-dmt usually called just dmt, but again i am still unsure. If everyone could find some helpful info about this drug and how to obtain or extract it, add to the topic, i have a feeling this is gonna be a big one.
and if there is no luck i found this site which is supposed to naturally increase dtm levels in your body.
http://www.acutcmdetox.com/tryptophan2.html
Get this information out, the goal is to find out where dmt can be purchased or the best ways for extraction.
-Steve