Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: cainam_nazier on April 14, 2003, 17:46:10
Post by: cainam_nazier on April 14, 2003, 17:46:10
Do animals have spirit? Yes I believe they do..
Are they concisous...No I don't think so or at least not at the same level as human. Please note that I will not say which I think is higher or lower.
For instance, dogs. They can activly think, they show emotion, but they must do as they do. They can not control thier base urges, and if/when they do it is only because thier owner says otherwise.
An animal is what it is, no right, no wrong. no good, no evil. I believe a human is concisous only because of two things. The ability to exert control over ones self, and the ability to choose.
Are they concisous...No I don't think so or at least not at the same level as human. Please note that I will not say which I think is higher or lower.
For instance, dogs. They can activly think, they show emotion, but they must do as they do. They can not control thier base urges, and if/when they do it is only because thier owner says otherwise.
An animal is what it is, no right, no wrong. no good, no evil. I believe a human is concisous only because of two things. The ability to exert control over ones self, and the ability to choose.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: bomohwkl on April 14, 2003, 17:51:03
Post by: bomohwkl on April 14, 2003, 17:51:03
Certainly animals have spirit. For example, dogs can be very intelligent (therefore there is consciousness) and capable to sense his owner feelings. Why couldn't we do the reverse? I wonder.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: lyn92 on April 14, 2003, 20:04:23
Post by: lyn92 on April 14, 2003, 20:04:23
here's a strange incident happened some time ago. I had two cats and a dog that grew up together, i've had them since they were less than a month old, at present they are going on 9 years.
one night i hear this strange high pitched robot like voice outside my bedroom door. I closed the door because the cats were making alot of noise. so the voice says "the one that is the male of us needs to go outside" so i open the door and the oldest female cat is sitting at the door. I go look for the dog and sure enough he is looking at the backdoor, he did have to go outside.
i've heard this high pitched voice about 3 times. so this cat of mine does have a conscious.
Lyn
one night i hear this strange high pitched robot like voice outside my bedroom door. I closed the door because the cats were making alot of noise. so the voice says "the one that is the male of us needs to go outside" so i open the door and the oldest female cat is sitting at the door. I go look for the dog and sure enough he is looking at the backdoor, he did have to go outside.
i've heard this high pitched voice about 3 times. so this cat of mine does have a conscious.
Lyn
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: James S on April 14, 2003, 21:24:35
Post by: James S on April 14, 2003, 21:24:35
Yes I do think that animals both have a spirit, and have a counsciousness. I have found evidence of this more so in parrots than dogs and cats, as they are able to communicate with us more directly by being able to use speech, though I do not believe that any such animals are more or less sentient than we are.
Just because an animal does not have the same facial expressions or communication skills that humans do, doesn't mean that they are not capable of thinking and feeling just as we do. The trick is learning how to interpret their feelings or actions, without referencing it against our own standards. Animals think, act, respond differently to us in given situations.
As exmples -
I have a pet cockatiel - a small member of the parrot family. When you own a pet and have a close relationship with it (cockatiels are very sociable birds) you get to know its behaviour. I know when my bird is upset, happy, angry, frightened, peeved, relaxed. I can read the expressions not so much from his face, but by his whole body language. You can get to a point where you know what he is feeling just by looking at him. If we come home late he'll turn his back to us and give us the whole "what time do you call this?" attitude. He has learned quite a few words and knows in what context to use them. He even knows how to laugh (a human type of laugh), and he will do it when he thinks something is funny, because he has learned from us.
Second example - African Grey Parrots are considered one of the most intelligent of all birds. They can be taught to speak quite easily, can have an extensive vocabulary, and as such are capable of telling us what they are thinking, NOT just mimicking sounds. Animal behaviour researchers have proven these birds to be capable of independent cognitive reasoning, as opposed to Pavlovian trained behavior and pattern recognition. This was a cosiderable breakthrough in this line of research because many animal behaviourists had to rethink their approaches to take into account the fact that animals such as these parrots are indeed fully sentient beings. Communication barriers and human ignorance have generally been the stumbling blocks here.
James.
Just because an animal does not have the same facial expressions or communication skills that humans do, doesn't mean that they are not capable of thinking and feeling just as we do. The trick is learning how to interpret their feelings or actions, without referencing it against our own standards. Animals think, act, respond differently to us in given situations.
As exmples -
I have a pet cockatiel - a small member of the parrot family. When you own a pet and have a close relationship with it (cockatiels are very sociable birds) you get to know its behaviour. I know when my bird is upset, happy, angry, frightened, peeved, relaxed. I can read the expressions not so much from his face, but by his whole body language. You can get to a point where you know what he is feeling just by looking at him. If we come home late he'll turn his back to us and give us the whole "what time do you call this?" attitude. He has learned quite a few words and knows in what context to use them. He even knows how to laugh (a human type of laugh), and he will do it when he thinks something is funny, because he has learned from us.
Second example - African Grey Parrots are considered one of the most intelligent of all birds. They can be taught to speak quite easily, can have an extensive vocabulary, and as such are capable of telling us what they are thinking, NOT just mimicking sounds. Animal behaviour researchers have proven these birds to be capable of independent cognitive reasoning, as opposed to Pavlovian trained behavior and pattern recognition. This was a cosiderable breakthrough in this line of research because many animal behaviourists had to rethink their approaches to take into account the fact that animals such as these parrots are indeed fully sentient beings. Communication barriers and human ignorance have generally been the stumbling blocks here.
James.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Goldenshadow on April 15, 2003, 01:27:29
Post by: Goldenshadow on April 15, 2003, 01:27:29
Humans are animals...
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Nick on April 15, 2003, 15:13:56
Post by: Nick on April 15, 2003, 15:13:56
From what I can gather they have both consciousness and spirit, but in a different capacity than we do.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Boo Kity on April 15, 2003, 19:55:26
Post by: Boo Kity on April 15, 2003, 19:55:26
I certainly do think that animals have consciousness and spirit. For us to think we are any better than any other living thing on the planet is arrogant.
We all have our purpose.
Most people have no idea how another human being is feeling at any time, so how woulda person be anble to know how an animal feels or thinks.
:)
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Leftypilot79 on April 15, 2003, 22:40:05
Post by: Leftypilot79 on April 15, 2003, 22:40:05
YES...animals have both. But when you ask....are you talking about like the family pet? or wild animals? I think they all have both...but domesticated animals...or animals that have realationships outside of their own species (humans, and other animals)...are a little more spiritually evolved than the cow grazing out in the pasture. (Not that those cute Californa Cows aren't special too.) James Van Praagh, and John Edwards have both said that animals are the greatest teachers of PUL. They don't judge us....they only can love us...which is really what its all about. And having that realationships with other animals raises their concious awareness of other things, other then themselves.
aaron
aaron
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Fat_Turkey on April 16, 2003, 01:39:49
Post by: Fat_Turkey on April 16, 2003, 01:39:49
Of course animals have a consciousness, in my opinion. According to nazier's beliefs though they don't.
It depends what you really believe a consciousness is I guess.
Humans I believe do have a different capacity of consciousness than animals, that in which we can choose and we can control ourselves. But I believe that those two things also make us the only species that can kill itself and hate itself, which I find sad.
Animals and humans have spirits. Spirits I think are exactly what Rob. Bruce defines as the energy body, except a spirit or soul is the energy body with a mind in it.
Well those are my two cents, and a lot of what I wanted to say has already been said by others here.
Later
-FT
It depends what you really believe a consciousness is I guess.
Humans I believe do have a different capacity of consciousness than animals, that in which we can choose and we can control ourselves. But I believe that those two things also make us the only species that can kill itself and hate itself, which I find sad.
Animals and humans have spirits. Spirits I think are exactly what Rob. Bruce defines as the energy body, except a spirit or soul is the energy body with a mind in it.
Well those are my two cents, and a lot of what I wanted to say has already been said by others here.
Later
-FT
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: James S on April 16, 2003, 05:40:06
Post by: James S on April 16, 2003, 05:40:06
Somthing interesting that both Fat Turkey and Cainam Nazier commented on - that animals (well, other animals) don't really have the same control over their actions that we do, mainly because of instinct.
Should this really be equated with consciousness?
The way I see it, from paying attention to the actions of a number of different species, instinct doesn't control animal behaviour as much as opportunity does. Many animal species live from one meal to the next. When we look at this from the perspective of our comfortable western civilised lives, it would be easy to forget that many people, such as those from many African nations, look upon the chance of food as most animals do. Do these people really have control over their actions? How many here own a cat, and have watched it turn its nose up at food. Anybody who's seen their dog slink out of their bedroom looking guilty will know that animals not only have consciousness, but also a conscience.
Animals choose their actions if they are in a position to do so. If you ever see an eagle turn into the face of a storm, to literally play in thermals and turbulence that would rip a small plane to pieces, you know they are doing it for fun, not because they have to.
I guess animals are not able to raise their consciousness such as we can when we meditate or AP, but then, some animals seem to have a level of perception beyond ours, and probably don't need to.
James.
Should this really be equated with consciousness?
The way I see it, from paying attention to the actions of a number of different species, instinct doesn't control animal behaviour as much as opportunity does. Many animal species live from one meal to the next. When we look at this from the perspective of our comfortable western civilised lives, it would be easy to forget that many people, such as those from many African nations, look upon the chance of food as most animals do. Do these people really have control over their actions? How many here own a cat, and have watched it turn its nose up at food. Anybody who's seen their dog slink out of their bedroom looking guilty will know that animals not only have consciousness, but also a conscience.
Animals choose their actions if they are in a position to do so. If you ever see an eagle turn into the face of a storm, to literally play in thermals and turbulence that would rip a small plane to pieces, you know they are doing it for fun, not because they have to.
I guess animals are not able to raise their consciousness such as we can when we meditate or AP, but then, some animals seem to have a level of perception beyond ours, and probably don't need to.
James.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: veliki grizli on April 16, 2003, 14:55:35
Post by: veliki grizli on April 16, 2003, 14:55:35
quote:
As exmples -
I have a pet cockatiel - a small member of the parrot family. When you own a pet and have a close relationship with it (cockatiels are very sociable birds) you get to know its behaviour. I know when my bird is upset, happy, angry, frightened, peeved, relaxed. I can read the expressions not so much from his face, but by his whole body language. You can get to a point where you know what he is feeling just by looking at him. If we come home late he'll turn his back to us and give us the whole "what time do you call this?" attitude. He has learned quite a few words and knows in what context to use them. He even knows how to laugh (a human type of laugh), and he will do it when he thinks something is funny, because he has learned from us.
Yes, but feelings and emotions have nothing with consciousness.
Consciousness is something different. Being conscious means to be aware of being or existance.
I thing that animals react only instinctively and have no consciousness. But I can not prove that and when I think more about that I am nor sure whether thay have consciousness or not.
Did anyone of you on etheric or astral plane saw dogs or cats or other animals.
If you have experience about that please wright something down.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: jilola on April 16, 2003, 15:05:11
Post by: jilola on April 16, 2003, 15:05:11
The actual physical manifestation is just a vehicle for the soul.
The soul (or the spirit) itself is a facet of the universal existence (call it god or whatever) but in itself an individual entity.
In the case of this souls incarnating in various circumstances its scope of awareness and capabilities of responding are bounded by the a) physical circumstances (worm vs. human) and b) its intended currciulum during a given incarnation (hmm example would be something to do with perspective of the soul, someone help me out?).
Thus an animal and a human are still the same and of the same as far as the spirit or the soul is concerned. Their respective abilities and levels of awareness differ, what feeling and awareness they have are te same as humans only limited to the circumstances of thei incarnate state.
Make sense?
2cents & L&L
jouni
The soul (or the spirit) itself is a facet of the universal existence (call it god or whatever) but in itself an individual entity.
In the case of this souls incarnating in various circumstances its scope of awareness and capabilities of responding are bounded by the a) physical circumstances (worm vs. human) and b) its intended currciulum during a given incarnation (hmm example would be something to do with perspective of the soul, someone help me out?).
Thus an animal and a human are still the same and of the same as far as the spirit or the soul is concerned. Their respective abilities and levels of awareness differ, what feeling and awareness they have are te same as humans only limited to the circumstances of thei incarnate state.
Make sense?
2cents & L&L
jouni
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: cainam_nazier on April 16, 2003, 16:22:20
Post by: cainam_nazier on April 16, 2003, 16:22:20
I would have to say that in the end it would boil down to wether or not an animal can ask itself one question. Why am I here?
My personal belief is that consiousness is the ability to reflect on ones self. So unless we can actually talk to an animal and ask what it thinks of itself and its place in the world we can only specualte.
My personal belief is that consiousness is the ability to reflect on ones self. So unless we can actually talk to an animal and ask what it thinks of itself and its place in the world we can only specualte.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Squeek on April 16, 2003, 21:02:48
Post by: Squeek on April 16, 2003, 21:02:48
Well, funny you should ask. In my youth group for my church, somebody asked if animals had souls and went to heaven. The moderator gave just a blatant...
"No." Then we laughed for like 10 minutes. I don't know why.
The kid came back next week with information. Pythagos, the guy who made the theory on the triangles, also thought this. He also said that pea-pods go to heaven :P
So the answer, to me, is no. They do not have a spirit, as they cannot ascend to heaven.
~Squeek
"No." Then we laughed for like 10 minutes. I don't know why.
The kid came back next week with information. Pythagos, the guy who made the theory on the triangles, also thought this. He also said that pea-pods go to heaven :P
So the answer, to me, is no. They do not have a spirit, as they cannot ascend to heaven.
~Squeek
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Goldenshadow on April 17, 2003, 01:30:51
Post by: Goldenshadow on April 17, 2003, 01:30:51
Do we really have control over what we do? Or are we more like the flow of water and lightning taking the path of least resistance. To say that "animals" do not have consciousness is not only denying the connection that all beings share, but also our own instincts. What about a planet like Earth or a wall for that matter? If there is a consistency...there is consciousness. Wich also means "animals" have an unconscious as well.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: watsonla on April 17, 2003, 03:04:05
Post by: watsonla on April 17, 2003, 03:04:05
A book well worth reading about spirit which also give a detailed explaination of animal spirit is the Rosicrucian Cosmo Conseption by max heindel. Its deep but fills in a lot of gaps in Robert Bruses books but they compliment each other and Roberts books also fills in some of Max Heindels book
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: watsonla on April 17, 2003, 03:08:55
Post by: watsonla on April 17, 2003, 03:08:55
A book well worth reading about spirit which also give a detailed explaination of animal spirit is the Rosicrucian Cosmo Conseption by max heindel. Its deep but fills in a lot of gaps in Robert Bruses books but they compliment each other and Roberts books also fills in some of Max Heindels book.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Leftypilot79 on April 17, 2003, 03:54:39
Post by: Leftypilot79 on April 17, 2003, 03:54:39
Im gonna echo what Goldenshadow said...AGIAN since its VERY IMPORTANT.
Humans are animals.....plain and simple. We happen to be a primate called the Homo-sapien. To those people who say that animals are aware, and have concious, or consciene....obviously don't have any pets. Animals are great teachers to us..they accept us uncondionally not matter what.
Now..if you are talking about the millions of cows out to pasture, waiting to be slaughtered or milked. Im sure they have their reason here...Im just not aware of it.
From watching John Edwards, and James Van Praag, and other mediums...they seem to bring family pets thru QUITE alot. Dogs, birds, cats, tigers (Seigfield and Roys were on James Van Praagh last week). So...to those of you who say that animals are concious....when you say that....that pretty much means you don't believe in Astral Projection either....that doubt it still there. But Astral Projection, mediumship, psychic things, all tie in toghter. Its really quite fascinating. :) Im enjoying the journey of learning about all this.
love
aaron
Humans are animals.....plain and simple. We happen to be a primate called the Homo-sapien. To those people who say that animals are aware, and have concious, or consciene....obviously don't have any pets. Animals are great teachers to us..they accept us uncondionally not matter what.
Now..if you are talking about the millions of cows out to pasture, waiting to be slaughtered or milked. Im sure they have their reason here...Im just not aware of it.
From watching John Edwards, and James Van Praag, and other mediums...they seem to bring family pets thru QUITE alot. Dogs, birds, cats, tigers (Seigfield and Roys were on James Van Praagh last week). So...to those of you who say that animals are concious....when you say that....that pretty much means you don't believe in Astral Projection either....that doubt it still there. But Astral Projection, mediumship, psychic things, all tie in toghter. Its really quite fascinating. :) Im enjoying the journey of learning about all this.
love
aaron
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Athios on April 17, 2003, 07:18:34
Post by: Athios on April 17, 2003, 07:18:34
I thought of this when I read jilola's reply.
Have you ever heard of someone (or yourself) say "Wouldn't it be great if I were a dog?" You know, because we think a dog's life is easy and fun, no stress.
What if that were the case, that (at least some) dogs are humans who chose to reincarnate as a dog? [:D]
Oh yeah, a related thing.
In one of the Chinese belief systems (I don't know it's name), humans continuously reincarnate until they achieve enlightment, and bad/evil people are forced to reincarnate as animals.
Have you ever heard of someone (or yourself) say "Wouldn't it be great if I were a dog?" You know, because we think a dog's life is easy and fun, no stress.
What if that were the case, that (at least some) dogs are humans who chose to reincarnate as a dog? [:D]
Oh yeah, a related thing.
In one of the Chinese belief systems (I don't know it's name), humans continuously reincarnate until they achieve enlightment, and bad/evil people are forced to reincarnate as animals.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: veliki grizli on April 17, 2003, 10:18:48
Post by: veliki grizli on April 17, 2003, 10:18:48
quote:
What if that were the case, that (at least some) dogs are humans who chose to reincarnate as a dog?
Oh yeah, a related thing.
In one of the Chinese belief systems (I don't know it's name), humans continuously reincarnate until they achieve enlightment, and bad/evil people are forced to reincarnate as animals
I read a little Tibetian book of death (I dont know correct title).
There stand that humans always reincarnate in humans, I neve read there that humans reincarnate in animals.
Some kind of other Buddhismic sects believe that humans reincarnate in animals due to zheit worships.
I know I speak bad English but I think you should understand.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: terrance on April 17, 2003, 14:49:55
Post by: terrance on April 17, 2003, 14:49:55
If you ask a human - "are you aware?" They would say - "Yes, I'm self aware and sentient, thanks."
If you ask your dog, "here boy! are you aware?" They would probably say "woof!"
We have no means, other than communication, for determining consciousness in other entities.
If you ask a robot that perfectly mimics human behaviour - "are you aware?" it would say "Yes I'm self aware and sentient, thanks."
So even direct communication is no good.
If you're concerned about killing other conscious/sentient creatures you might say that the only logical step is to take measures not to do so - i.e. become a vegan. This step is logical - if you can't possibly know if something is conscious then one must assume that they could be so.
regards
t
p.s I do eat meat!
If you ask your dog, "here boy! are you aware?" They would probably say "woof!"
We have no means, other than communication, for determining consciousness in other entities.
If you ask a robot that perfectly mimics human behaviour - "are you aware?" it would say "Yes I'm self aware and sentient, thanks."
So even direct communication is no good.
If you're concerned about killing other conscious/sentient creatures you might say that the only logical step is to take measures not to do so - i.e. become a vegan. This step is logical - if you can't possibly know if something is conscious then one must assume that they could be so.
regards
t
p.s I do eat meat!
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: jilola on April 17, 2003, 14:53:53
Post by: jilola on April 17, 2003, 14:53:53
But that lines of reasoning leads one to ask the same about carrots.
Imho and impb, all are part of the same universal totaltiy or oneness, whatever, and thus to some extent sentient. Even non-organics.
L&L
jouni
Imho and impb, all are part of the same universal totaltiy or oneness, whatever, and thus to some extent sentient. Even non-organics.
L&L
jouni
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: terrance on April 17, 2003, 16:10:32
Post by: terrance on April 17, 2003, 16:10:32
I thought about vegetables as I wrote that :)
Perhaps that's why I still eat cow.
The point I was attempting to make is that's it's impossible to say for certain one way or the other. So anything asserted is really speculation. It's down to the individual to decide - but this decision can have no credible grounds.
Anyway, I don't eat carrots... they taste horrible ;)
t
Perhaps that's why I still eat cow.
The point I was attempting to make is that's it's impossible to say for certain one way or the other. So anything asserted is really speculation. It's down to the individual to decide - but this decision can have no credible grounds.
Anyway, I don't eat carrots... they taste horrible ;)
t
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: jilola on April 17, 2003, 16:23:22
Post by: jilola on April 17, 2003, 16:23:22
Yep. It is usually impossible to know.
But such a determination can have credible grounds subjectively. One may see things and see thigns in a way that others cant, either see or understand/accept. This doesn't detract from the fact the the observation has the necessary value and weigth to support a choice one way or another nor does it require anyone else seeing things the same way.
I think someone else besides me has said that we are quests in each others universes. IMHO, this means that while we may share certain aspects of our existence, such as it's cause and physical appearance, the spiritual aspects are still very much subjective and personal while we are here.
That's why one should treat everything and anything with respect. Whether it's something you eat, play with, kick or think about. But that shouldn't be an obstacle for doing what seems to you the right thing.
2cents & L&L
But such a determination can have credible grounds subjectively. One may see things and see thigns in a way that others cant, either see or understand/accept. This doesn't detract from the fact the the observation has the necessary value and weigth to support a choice one way or another nor does it require anyone else seeing things the same way.
I think someone else besides me has said that we are quests in each others universes. IMHO, this means that while we may share certain aspects of our existence, such as it's cause and physical appearance, the spiritual aspects are still very much subjective and personal while we are here.
That's why one should treat everything and anything with respect. Whether it's something you eat, play with, kick or think about. But that shouldn't be an obstacle for doing what seems to you the right thing.
2cents & L&L
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on April 23, 2003, 12:40:12
Post by: PeacefulWarrior on April 23, 2003, 12:40:12
I, for one, agree with those who said "Yes." In fact, I believe that even a rock has a spirit, but in a different sense. I think all matter has a particular kind of "intelligence" but of course there are varying degrees of this intelligence.
---------------------
The "pure principles of element" and of intelligence coexist eternally with God: "They may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed" (TPJS, p. 351). God created the universe out of chaos, "which is Element and in which dwells all the glory" (WJS, p. 351). "The elements are the tabernacle of God" (D&C 93:35). God is related to space and time, and did not create them from nothing. Change occurs through intelligence. The universe is governed by law. There were two creations: All things were made "spiritually" before they were made "naturally" (Moses 3:5). Through his Son, God is the Creator of multiple worlds. God is the Father of the human spirits that inhabit his creations. His creations have no end.
---------------------
The "pure principles of element" and of intelligence coexist eternally with God: "They may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed" (TPJS, p. 351). God created the universe out of chaos, "which is Element and in which dwells all the glory" (WJS, p. 351). "The elements are the tabernacle of God" (D&C 93:35). God is related to space and time, and did not create them from nothing. Change occurs through intelligence. The universe is governed by law. There were two creations: All things were made "spiritually" before they were made "naturally" (Moses 3:5). Through his Son, God is the Creator of multiple worlds. God is the Father of the human spirits that inhabit his creations. His creations have no end.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Greytraveller on April 23, 2003, 14:47:20
Post by: Greytraveller on April 23, 2003, 14:47:20
Some people claim that animals have a spirit or a soul. That could well be true. I don't have any pets and don't feel qualified to debate the issue.
However the idea that inanimate objects have a soul or spirit is confusing. Perhaps there has been some confusion between energy and soul/spirit/consciousness. Electro-magnetism is an energy. Here we can probably all agree that EM does not have a soul. Yet what about Chi, ki and Prana? These are energies. Yet are any or all these energies somehow related to a human soul? What about natural energies (air, earth, water or fire)? Is Gaia both an energy and the soul of the planet (thereby imparting each rock and boulder with a soul of its own)? Is that a viable arguement?
However the idea that inanimate objects have a soul or spirit is confusing. Perhaps there has been some confusion between energy and soul/spirit/consciousness. Electro-magnetism is an energy. Here we can probably all agree that EM does not have a soul. Yet what about Chi, ki and Prana? These are energies. Yet are any or all these energies somehow related to a human soul? What about natural energies (air, earth, water or fire)? Is Gaia both an energy and the soul of the planet (thereby imparting each rock and boulder with a soul of its own)? Is that a viable arguement?
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Paukki on April 24, 2003, 08:27:55
Post by: Paukki on April 24, 2003, 08:27:55
Do animals have a spirit or a soul?
How the hell would I know?
I've griped and grumbled and griped again,
That lilies and birds, (seemingly Jesus's friends),
Supposedly neither worry nor fret o'er eating nor shelter,
While human beings do all that, helter-skelter!
Sure! I exclaimed. They have no brains!
Someone came along and said egoic mind is insane.
I sighed, rolled eyes, and kept on reading,
And on endless parchments, kept on feeding.
They say "All's energy!" They say "All's One!"
God sleeps in the minerals, awakens in plants,
God in animals moves, and in humans.......
Rants?
[:D] {exit, stage left...no, right!....up?...illusion of exiting? [Ha-ha, I'm IN you forever, can't get rid of me]{oh, shoot, and you in me? And your dogs and parrots, too? ...forever!??}]}...[fade-out melodically]}
--Paukki
P.S. Pleased if you put down newspaper before leaving the puppy behind.
How the hell would I know?
I've griped and grumbled and griped again,
That lilies and birds, (seemingly Jesus's friends),
Supposedly neither worry nor fret o'er eating nor shelter,
While human beings do all that, helter-skelter!
Sure! I exclaimed. They have no brains!
Someone came along and said egoic mind is insane.
I sighed, rolled eyes, and kept on reading,
And on endless parchments, kept on feeding.
They say "All's energy!" They say "All's One!"
God sleeps in the minerals, awakens in plants,
God in animals moves, and in humans.......
Rants?
[:D] {exit, stage left...no, right!....up?...illusion of exiting? [Ha-ha, I'm IN you forever, can't get rid of me]{oh, shoot, and you in me? And your dogs and parrots, too? ...forever!??}]}...[fade-out melodically]}
--Paukki
P.S. Pleased if you put down newspaper before leaving the puppy behind.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: TruthSeeker on April 24, 2003, 09:50:44
Post by: TruthSeeker on April 24, 2003, 09:50:44
What separates homo sapiens from other animals is rughly speaking the "major brain"(biggest part of our brain). It is this part we use to be creative,liguistic,musical,logical,mathematical and consious. Other animals also has this part, but it is very under-developed. They rely on the brain core and the reptile brain more than us. This makes them act more on instinct, and more "bendable". i.e like a dog is by its master/owner.
BUT this does not in any way(some way it does, will come back to that) indicate that animals have a less complicated soul that homo sapiens(us). I am sure you think of your body as a shell. It is not ALL of you. This shell is something that constraints you and keeps yoou within some boundaries. I have not yet myself has a fulle concious AP, but all of its theory is to me believable and is very likely to be the truth. When astral projecting you do not have the same boundaries as when in the physical. i.e you can fly around, sense things you cannot sense in physical.
It might just be that a dog has just as complicated soul as we do, in fact its the MOST sensible thing. BUT here is also the possibility that animals have the same mentality as when soul or when physical. Many astral projectors have seen astral creatures when in astral form, not only in the astral plane(s), but also in real time. They tell of their pet also being able to leave their body, use their astral body sometimes BETTER than the projector. One I read about(famous projector,do not remember his name) told about him and his dog traveling the skys together, but I recall his description of this was rather vague, and it did not mention if his dog had a "higher conciousness" there or if it was the same as in the physical.
This is all just my opinions(exept hard facts like the brain functions,structure), but to it is most likely that animals do have souls, and PERHAPS they ARE MORE spiritual than the average homo sapien walkin the streets. i.e I have had 5 dogs during the last years, and all of them seem to have had a higher understanding of their environments. I can not explain it, but it just "deels" like they do. And there is the fact that animals, especially dogs can see ghosts(spirits,late spirits, evil entities and similar), this could mean the line between the spiritual world and physical is thinner to them than to homo sapiens? Also this could indicate they have a soul.
I await for my first concious projection, and when it happens I will make sure to try contacting my present dog as well as the four other past ones. I will post this when I have managed it. Until then..
Love is all there is,
TruthSeeker
BUT this does not in any way(some way it does, will come back to that) indicate that animals have a less complicated soul that homo sapiens(us). I am sure you think of your body as a shell. It is not ALL of you. This shell is something that constraints you and keeps yoou within some boundaries. I have not yet myself has a fulle concious AP, but all of its theory is to me believable and is very likely to be the truth. When astral projecting you do not have the same boundaries as when in the physical. i.e you can fly around, sense things you cannot sense in physical.
It might just be that a dog has just as complicated soul as we do, in fact its the MOST sensible thing. BUT here is also the possibility that animals have the same mentality as when soul or when physical. Many astral projectors have seen astral creatures when in astral form, not only in the astral plane(s), but also in real time. They tell of their pet also being able to leave their body, use their astral body sometimes BETTER than the projector. One I read about(famous projector,do not remember his name) told about him and his dog traveling the skys together, but I recall his description of this was rather vague, and it did not mention if his dog had a "higher conciousness" there or if it was the same as in the physical.
This is all just my opinions(exept hard facts like the brain functions,structure), but to it is most likely that animals do have souls, and PERHAPS they ARE MORE spiritual than the average homo sapien walkin the streets. i.e I have had 5 dogs during the last years, and all of them seem to have had a higher understanding of their environments. I can not explain it, but it just "deels" like they do. And there is the fact that animals, especially dogs can see ghosts(spirits,late spirits, evil entities and similar), this could mean the line between the spiritual world and physical is thinner to them than to homo sapiens? Also this could indicate they have a soul.
I await for my first concious projection, and when it happens I will make sure to try contacting my present dog as well as the four other past ones. I will post this when I have managed it. Until then..
Love is all there is,
TruthSeeker
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Psypunk on April 24, 2003, 10:59:21
Post by: Psypunk on April 24, 2003, 10:59:21
It is funny that this topic come up because just the other day, I was sitting at my computer working when I just a mental connection with the mouse in Shakira's (my boa) cage. The mouse was on it's hind legs just staring at me. I looked at the mouse and waved, and it just kept staring at me. It's almost like the mouse knew it was going to die and I was it's only hope for salvation. The mouse didn't have the mental capacity to know how or why I could or would save it. It just seemed to know. Then I got thinking. How are we to know the consciousness and individuality level of a mouse? How do we know that they aren't as intelligent as us, they just have no concept of how to communicate with us because they do not perceive the world as we do. Our brains have different filters from them, so we have no way of knowing what goes on in the mind of a mouse.
If you think about it, we can't comprehend the different levels of consciousness and the varieties of perceptions there are in the animal kingdom. No two creatures see the world the same way, so what makes it our right to decide which animals are ok to live with and have as friends and which animals are to be experimented on for the sake of our science. Millions upon millions of frogs and mice are captured and killed just for the sake of high school dissection class. Is it really that necessary that our kids know how to cut open an animal and identify it's organs? Can't a book show them that? We don't learn how to dissect a human do we? So how come it's ok to dissect something just because it perceives the world in a way that is different from the one that we know. We don't know reality according to a mouse, so what makes our reality better or right?
If you think about it, if it were possible for all animals and creatures to be on the exact same perception and consciousness and perception level, it would be a perfect existence. It would be like the garden of eden. When adam and eve could hold conversations with the animals. Absolute perspective and truth were known and believed by all. Because it was obviously a given in that perspective. Just like gravity is a given in the perspective we have now. I believe that this is how it will be in the highest level of consciousness that we enter into (Heaven or Nirvana, or whatever you want to call it). All of us will be on the same consciousness and level of perception. I feel really bad now and don't know what to do. It was this mouse right here in my cage that made me realize this...and I am about to execute it to my snake!!! But if I don't feed my snake, she'll die...So what do I do [?] Maybe a snake isn't be best pet for an animal lover to have.
Life is full of problems. I am avidly against vivisection though, that is for sure.
If you think about it, we can't comprehend the different levels of consciousness and the varieties of perceptions there are in the animal kingdom. No two creatures see the world the same way, so what makes it our right to decide which animals are ok to live with and have as friends and which animals are to be experimented on for the sake of our science. Millions upon millions of frogs and mice are captured and killed just for the sake of high school dissection class. Is it really that necessary that our kids know how to cut open an animal and identify it's organs? Can't a book show them that? We don't learn how to dissect a human do we? So how come it's ok to dissect something just because it perceives the world in a way that is different from the one that we know. We don't know reality according to a mouse, so what makes our reality better or right?
If you think about it, if it were possible for all animals and creatures to be on the exact same perception and consciousness and perception level, it would be a perfect existence. It would be like the garden of eden. When adam and eve could hold conversations with the animals. Absolute perspective and truth were known and believed by all. Because it was obviously a given in that perspective. Just like gravity is a given in the perspective we have now. I believe that this is how it will be in the highest level of consciousness that we enter into (Heaven or Nirvana, or whatever you want to call it). All of us will be on the same consciousness and level of perception. I feel really bad now and don't know what to do. It was this mouse right here in my cage that made me realize this...and I am about to execute it to my snake!!! But if I don't feed my snake, she'll die...So what do I do [?] Maybe a snake isn't be best pet for an animal lover to have.
Life is full of problems. I am avidly against vivisection though, that is for sure.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: TruthSeeker on April 24, 2003, 13:46:01
Post by: TruthSeeker on April 24, 2003, 13:46:01
A very good point there Psypunk!
But lets say for some reason I had a very small brain like lets say a mouse-brain. That could actually be positive if I just kept my soul? This little brain filters different and may just pass more of you higher self through? Could this be an explanation to the dogs seeing ghosts? Well... one can sit for ever and think about this subject and have new theories over and over, so I suggest those who know how to astrally project into the physical plane do some experimenting with their pets if they have one.. Try communicatiing with it! Search for the neighbouring dog and have a chat! This could cast some more light on this very interestng subject..
Until next time,
TruthSeeker
But lets say for some reason I had a very small brain like lets say a mouse-brain. That could actually be positive if I just kept my soul? This little brain filters different and may just pass more of you higher self through? Could this be an explanation to the dogs seeing ghosts? Well... one can sit for ever and think about this subject and have new theories over and over, so I suggest those who know how to astrally project into the physical plane do some experimenting with their pets if they have one.. Try communicatiing with it! Search for the neighbouring dog and have a chat! This could cast some more light on this very interestng subject..
Until next time,
TruthSeeker
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Paukki on April 24, 2003, 17:14:00
Post by: Paukki on April 24, 2003, 17:14:00
It's also been said that dogs and cats (and also little kids and who knows how much else) have brainwaves mostly in the theta and delta frequency. Theta has been said to interface with "The Universal Mind", (delta?) Not that I've proven this to my own daily conscious self. But it might explain some of the more esoteric stuff about cats and dogs and whatnot.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: Fyrenze on April 30, 2003, 17:56:44
Post by: Fyrenze on April 30, 2003, 17:56:44
Someone earlier said animals don't go to heaven...Haven't you ever heard "All dogs go to heaven"[?]
But really, I'd agree with the general consensus that animals have consciousness and spirit.
Also, I agree with those who think human decision making tends to follow the path of least resistance. There certainly are plenty of cases where it doesn't, though. If that were the case, I'd have never decided to try OBEs and meditation. I'm not yet wired for it.
But really, I'd agree with the general consensus that animals have consciousness and spirit.
Also, I agree with those who think human decision making tends to follow the path of least resistance. There certainly are plenty of cases where it doesn't, though. If that were the case, I'd have never decided to try OBEs and meditation. I'm not yet wired for it.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: monicat777 on May 01, 2003, 14:49:22
Post by: monicat777 on May 01, 2003, 14:49:22
I believe they do!!! I have a profound (yes,PROFOUND)relationship with my two cats. I explain everything to them..trips to the vet, moving to a new place, visitors coming over, my moods, etc. I believe with all my heart they understand, maybe sometimes even more than me. I send them love all the time and I listen to them. I want them to have the best lives possible and to feel they are part of my family unconditionally. That's an important thing, they are so willingly unconditional, they deserve to feel that back.
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: MeZergy on May 03, 2003, 16:11:56
Post by: MeZergy on May 03, 2003, 16:11:56
I believe they do (at least those that interact with humans). My dog, Bonnie (who died Oct. 2000 at age 17), seemed to have a spirit. She was so nice to me because I had her since I was born. She feared like people do. She was afraid of a man. I'm not sure who, but my parents said that when she got her, she was afraid of my dad and she had scabs on her body.
So, yes, I believe animals have souls.
Heh, I know this is pretty old, but I decided to post anyway [:D]
So, yes, I believe animals have souls.
Heh, I know this is pretty old, but I decided to post anyway [:D]
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: dreamingcarnage on May 03, 2003, 21:24:50
Post by: dreamingcarnage on May 03, 2003, 21:24:50
To clearly respond you would have to know what consciousness is but there are so many definitions. This is from http://members.aol.com/chris5264/jaynes.html
"Consciousness and the Reticular Activating System. Jaynes feels that is it is a waste of time to associate the RAS with consciousness because it is one of the oldest structures in the evolution of the nervous system. This is in contrast to Baars. Baars suggests that the RAS may be one of the most important and necessary brain areas associated with consciousness. Because many animals possess a RAS, Baars argues that they are actually conscious. The argument can be resolved if we focus on what Jaynes vs. Baars mean by consciousness. Many individuals hold consciousness to mean qualitative subjective states such as pain or our inner experience while looking at the color red. This version of consciousness is sometimes referred to as qualia. This simple level of sensory consciousness is clearly not what Jaynes is referring to. Jaynes's view of consciousness seems to indicate a higher abstract level of ego or self-consciousness. However this abstraction is still totally dependent upon basic sensory processes. "
"Consciousness and the Reticular Activating System. Jaynes feels that is it is a waste of time to associate the RAS with consciousness because it is one of the oldest structures in the evolution of the nervous system. This is in contrast to Baars. Baars suggests that the RAS may be one of the most important and necessary brain areas associated with consciousness. Because many animals possess a RAS, Baars argues that they are actually conscious. The argument can be resolved if we focus on what Jaynes vs. Baars mean by consciousness. Many individuals hold consciousness to mean qualitative subjective states such as pain or our inner experience while looking at the color red. This version of consciousness is sometimes referred to as qualia. This simple level of sensory consciousness is clearly not what Jaynes is referring to. Jaynes's view of consciousness seems to indicate a higher abstract level of ego or self-consciousness. However this abstraction is still totally dependent upon basic sensory processes. "
Title: Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit
Post by: veliki grizli on April 14, 2003, 15:55:47
Post by: veliki grizli on April 14, 2003, 15:55:47
Please tell me your opinions.