Does anyone think its evil to believe in OBEs?

[jasond]

Some consider a belief in OBEs is an offense to GOD but the church has lead to many problem in Ireland including child abuse by priests who never had normal relationships with women.

I don't think people should suffer because they didn't go to mass every sunday.  It's just not that bad.  I have to go but still.  If you don't believe in GOD you still don't deserve to BURN IN HELL FOREVER.  I hope we all get reincarnated anyway...

[Lighthouse]

If you're really looking to take a census on this topic, why not try a Christian forum or one that isn't centered on the subject.  There are people here that feel it goes aginst their  and are battling this fear (I read this a few days ago) but really, asking your question here is like going to a bar and asking people if they thougtht that drinking is evil.  If you are looking for lively discussion on the subject, this is probably not the place.

[Heather B.]

Gosh, I'm starting to feel that my Catholic upbringing has been atypically lenient.  I've never heard that OBEs are anything evil--I've heard that from other Christians, but not Catholics.  

Of course, I come from an atypical Catholic family; my same relatives and ancestors who were Catholic (my paternal grandfather's side--of Irish and French descent) have also been known for being psychics, mediums, and even an official Church Exorcist.  And I have personal evidence that none of them have landed in Hell.  My grandfather, though dead before I was born, has been an especially great influence, guardian, and guiding light for me and and his other descendents.  A very good, loving, and inspiring force in our lives.  I seriously doubt a soul burning in Hell could pull that off!

As for the faults of the Church... I'll just say that I've learned all religious systems are corrupt and imperfect.  Because religion is just religion--one of many earthly institutions by humans, for humans.  Ideally, religion is humanity's way of discovering and becoming closer to God... but we don't always choose to pursue that purpose.  Even our religious leaders.  It is up to each of us as individuals to determine what meaning and purpose religion has for us.  For myself, after 10 years of searching, I realized that I loved Catholicism, even if I don't always agree with or even like the ways of the Church and its leaders.  As far as religions go, it's the only one for me.  But believe me--there is much more to my spiritual life and my relationship with God than just religion... and I think that's perfectly OK with God--at least, He's never given any indication that it's not!  

But I had to find all this out for myself--other people's results will vary, of course.

[CFTraveler]

Gosh, I'm starting to feel that my Catholic upbringing has been atypically lenient.  I've never heard that OBEs are anything evil--I've heard that from other Christians, but not Catholics.  

Of course, I come from an atypical Catholic family; my same relatives and ancestors who were Catholic (my paternal grandfather's side--of Irish and French descent) have also been known for being psychics, mediums, and even an official Church Exorcist.  And I have personal evidence that none of them have landed in Hell.  My grandfather, though dead before I was born, has been an especially great influence, guardian, and guiding light for me and and his other descendents.  A very good, loving, and inspiring force in our lives.  I seriously doubt a soul burning in Hell could pull that off!

As for the faults of the Church... I'll just say that I've learned all religious systems are corrupt and imperfect.  Because religion is just religion--one of many earthly institutions by humans, for humans.  Ideally, religion is humanity's way of discovering and becoming closer to God... but we don't always choose to pursue that purpose.  Even our religious leaders.  It is up to each of us as individuals to determine what meaning and purpose religion has for us.  For myself, after 10 years of searching, I realized that I loved Catholicism, even if I don't always agree with or even like the ways of the Church and its leaders.  As far as religions go, it's the only one for me.  But believe me--there is much more to my spiritual life and my relationship with God than just religion... and I think that's perfectly OK with God--at least, He's never given any indication that it's not!  

But I had to find all this out for myself--other people's results will vary, of course.

I love what you said (except I did leave catholicism and go to a different church)- and now I have  one more thing to add:
Jason d: Consider how you define 'evil'.  What is evil? For me is the intent to hurt another or even oneself.  OBE, like any other type of exploration, is only that, exploration.  Sure, it can be used for evil purposes, but the same can be said about driving a car, or taking a walk.  The reason that some religions see exploration as 'evil' is because exploration, and thus discovery, is seen as threatening the precepts that have been set by a power structure.  But the same can be said of Science and new theories.  You will find that any institution with some amount of power will see any exploration as a threat to the status quo.  So, what does it mean to you?

[Stookie]

jasond: Whether someone says it's good or evil, all you can really do is push your own beliefs as far as they'll let you. And if you want to go any further, you have to either change or get rid of your beliefs. Most people are happy with their beliefs and don't even consider pushing past them.

[interception]

From OBE's to child abuse in a single sentence? Oh boy.    

The brothers Fear, Ignorance and Guilt... oh how established religious systems just love those three brothers, don't they?

To me, any belief system that endeavors to prevent you from asking uncomfortable questions and exploring possibilities would be... well suspect. Incomplete. A distortion. A convoluted path at best.

But, thats just me. Believe what you will.

[Eloquence]

Some consider a belief in OBEs is an offense to GOD but the church has lead to many problem in Ireland including child abuse by priests who never had normal relationships with women.

I don't think people should suffer because they didn't go to mass every sunday.  It's just not that bad.  I have to go but still.  If you don't believe in GOD you still don't deserve to BURN IN HELL FOREVER.  I hope we all get reincarnated anyway...

Jason, the thing you need to remember about Christianity is that there are HUGE differences in opinions about different things, be they Bible related or just everyday life related. Eg: can gays be Christians? Some would argue no, it is a sin, others would argue against. Which is why I have given up on conforming to the ideals and beliefs of a whole and conforming to my own beliefs. Which is what you need to do. Dont just let someone else tell you that OBE'ing is evil, make up your own mind.

As for the hell comment, my belief is that in rejecting God, you reject your father, and when you reject your father, you can no longer be a part of the family. Which is what I believe this whole life thing is about. God is having a family. But then again, I do have some concerns about that. Like what about a remote village in the middle of nowhere that hasnt got a clue about religion? Should they be condemned to hell for all eternity? Surely not.

But thats just me, as I said, you gotta come up with your own beliefs.

[Kallas]

I remember when i was trying to explain my views of OOBE's to my granmother who, i might add, is a devout christian. She didn't really understand what i was talking about... as such our conversation ended with her telling my granddad that i was worshipping satan in some distant way.  
funny little world.

[Eloquence]

hmm..... taking a stroll in the astral plane and worshiping satan..... I dont really see a connection between the two... but anyway! lol

[David Warner]

Jasond,

Bottom line is this.. If you pursue evil, it will attract, but if your intentions are pure, follow gods will, help people here in the physical and astral, also trying to make a difference and not just thinking of "I" all the time you will do good.

I've had a good discussion with my minister about astral projection a few months ago and he supports astral projection, as long its good intentions and that you seek to better the world.

Tvos

[Porkchoppiglet]

TVOS

I have to aggree with you 200% there. The astral world is NOTHING close to evil. You may see, feel, touch and interact with evil, but that DOESNT make the astral plane an EVIL place. You see what you percieve in your subconcious, so if you do not intend to chase evil, evil will repel from you, and you'll be safe.

Jason, stay true to yourself, and all will be fine.

Thanx tvos

Simon

[Eloquence]

TVOS, just on your interview with the minister. I recall reading about that (before I joined up) .. did you ever get around to posting the full interview?

[David Warner]

Eloquence,

I've been working on the editing of the audio and to my surprize the interview itself editing is much work then I thought it would be. There are a few things that weigh against me right with this 1. the editing 2. clarity of discussion 3. i talk too much...:)  4. I've 3 videos of my physical body recorded during the astral projcetion experience that I am editing too 5. My journal notes, editing the good ole grammer, spelling, and wonder colorfull metaphors used in romantic encounters 6. Lastly, the wording on my web site for the different sections... I wish that I could have a good strong 2 weeks to get this done... Not to mention everyday life, work, studying for ceritifications, doing side jobs blah blah blah.. and on top of it keeping up with the projections..:)

Anyone care to dig in and help me out??

But back to your question the interview will be in audio mp3 format as all my journals are in 2005 to present.


Tvos

[Eloquence]

"But back to your question the interview will be in audio mp3 format as all my journals are in 2005 to present. "

Cool, thanks man

"Anyone care to dig in and help me out?? "

Hehe, if your serious, i'd be glad to help you out

[David Warner]

as a out of body experience I am serious!!!

tvos

[Heather B.]

TVOS,

Perhaps I could assist with editing the written parts, if you'd like!  I do have that BA in English gathering dust...

[Eloquence]

Or if its the audio you need help with, I do have experience in editing mp3'   . With Adobe Audition   . Or with the video... I have a fair bit of experience with that. Usin Adobe Premiere Pro  

[David Warner]

Heather B,

That would be excellent and incredibly helpfull and I appreciate it!

Eloquence,

The audio mp3's are up to date on the site so thats not a problem. I am working on the second video editing which I've been using vegas video. It only took me 10mins to put myself into the trance state and experience the oobe. The other video is in vhs format that I need to convert into the pc so thats something that I'll have to buy.

I know most of the video/audio will be on my part but the syntax of the site and journal notes need a real good house cleaning w/o disrupting the original.

Tvos

[Heather B.]

Right, then.  Feel free to email me the text files you need edited!  

[jason]

Hi Jason, I'm also Jason.

I know someone who considers OBE to be against the will of god.He's a nice enough guy normally, but seems to have some christian fundamentalist beliefs.He was interested in OBE for awhile, but then found that his religous beliefs were opposed to it.

That said, there is nothing inherently evil about it, & if it was truly against the will of god, we wouldn't have achieved it in the first place, because to say that something we do is against the will of god, implies that we have overcome the will of god, & are essentially more powerful than god (which we aren't, or are we? :angel: )

[David Warner]

Jason,

Out of body experience / Astral Projection is not evil. It all depends on *How* the individual uses this information (good or bad) to project. If you turn to the dark path then its obviously evil, but if your intentions are pure, good and to serve God, mankind then there will be purity.

A good discussion I had with my friend Ralph (doctors in divinity) and is a teacher of religion and philosophy. I asked him clearly about the bible and the disciples who received messages from God/Angels/Christ through dreams that's not looked at negative. Because its in the bible? What about our society today and if we receive messages from God through dreams.

Bottom line is that we are put into a category as occult, practicing witchcraft and doing the evil work of the devil. Well, you take Daniel or Joseph for instance and bring their stories to our time and civilization they would get the same rap. So why are religions, society so afraid about this? Anything that can't be described scientifically is labeled "mystic" and thrown away not valid to the bible. Well, as I read more about the bible, dreams, visions its all comes down to the persons belief and comfort zone.

I wish the hardcore religious leaders that put down astral projection/oobe and claim it to the the devils work could really sit down and listen to people like Robert Bruce, Dannion Brinkley, talented projectionists from our AP forum. I am sure they might be a little more open and surprised how they are even closer to God then the religious leaders. Its all based on how you find your way to the bible and use this information to give love to people in both worlds.

Tvos

[Sepultura123]

Another think its that if its exist for real (and not just another type of dreams) , it will put in question if the bible and god really exist. So they say its evil because they afraid about someone learning the truth that this or that God is not the ''good'' one or the right one.

[Eloquence]

That said, there is nothing inherently evil about it, & if it was truly against the will of god, we wouldn't have achieved it in the first place, because to say that something we do is against the will of god, implies that we have overcome the will of god, & are essentially more powerful than god (which we aren't, or are we?

Jason, interesting idea. Though if thats true then that should render all Christians incapable of commiting sin because that also would be against the will of God. Which plainly isnt the case.

[Heather B.]

Well, unfortunately, we go against the will of God all the time.  We have free will, and the ability to choose our actions.  It is our nature to consider our own wills of primary importance, even if we know we should submit to God's will.  Sooner or later, God's will catched up with us.

On a more simple, practical level, my thinking is that nothing good can come from evil... and it seems to me that all of us here are always receiving good benefits from our pursuit and practice of AP.  I know I've only been helped by it, and even had some very religious experiences (for example, this post).  

[David Warner]

Heather,

You are correct on your statement about freewill and how we tend to go our own ways w/o God.

Evil will never be positive and this is what my friend Ralph stressed about religion. If you walk the path to the white light and be the best that you can in human life you'll succeed.

I am glad that this forum has helped you along with astral projection. You are definite proof of positive than negative. If it wasn't for AP back in my days I probably would have been the foolish, naive, out for myself, opinionated person that I was 20yrs ago.

Tvos