Does the RTZ really exist?

[beavis]

I've had many experiences that could be called RTZ projection, but most of them are vague. At least 6 months ago, I did 3 experiments successfully (similar to the card test), which prove that I was really in RTZ. Since then, I have not been concerned with proving it is real. I forgot, without trying to prove anything, me and Tayesin did meet in RTZ in my apartment, and we verified our experiences were the same the next day.

how do I differentiate if that is the case, between the RTZ and just an astral recreation of my room or lucid dream?

Physical reality, RTZ, and astral recreations are all dreams. The closer you get to physical reality, the more energy you need to affect things. Most people dont have enough energy to do anything paranormal here big enough to notice. The point is, there is no need to differentiate.

About "Steve the bear", Anything you create in astral or your mind is real, but most people wont agree its real because they have not seen it. Most people agree physical reality is real because they are all in it and because of the extremely high energy density which causes our interpretations of it to be mostly consistent. In a dream, when you change something, if somebody else doesnt agree that is real, they will simply go to a dream they like better and pretend it isnt real.

[holy reality]

quote:Physical reality, RTZ, and astral recreations are all dreams. The closer you get to physical reality, the more energy you need to affect things. Most people dont have enough energy to do anything paranormal here big enough to notice. The point is, there is no need to differentiate.

Yes there is, I want to actually get myself in an extremely close version of physical reality, getting to a REAL version of my house would be just fine to begin with... how do I do so?

You did a card test, well, in order to do that I'm assuming you had to pretty much be out of your body and into the physical or a direct copy of it... how do you get to such a place?

How do you meet other projectors in real astral locales? There has to be a barrier between dream (as in, inside your head only) and collective dream, and things like that, right?

[beavis]

Yes there is, I want to actually get myself in an extremely close version of physical reality, getting to a REAL version of my house would be just fine to begin with... how do I do so?

Think about the place you want to go, and what it feels like to rub your hands over all parts of it. The more you do that, the more solid it feels. When its solid enough, what you visualize is probably real.

You did a card test, well, in order to do that I'm assuming you had to pretty much be out of your body and into the physical or a direct copy of it... how do you get to such a place?

I am always in my body, but sometimes I get distracted and forget about my body. I paid attention to physical things other than my body, but not through my body's senses.

A copy of reality seems like an unlikely explanation because 1 reality is simplier than many.

How do you meet other projectors in real astral locales? There has to be a barrier between dream (as in, inside your head only) and collective dream, and things like that, right?

I meet other projectors the same way I described above in this post.

There is not a barrier between dreams and "collective dream" (earth). Dreams are not in your head only. They have less other spirits in them with you than earth, but you are not always alone.

[Jeff_Mash]

Hey there Holy Reality.....

Allow me to explain the way I see things, and hopefully, it will alleviate some of your concerns.

First off, you seem mose distressed about the fact that when you projected, you saw things differently than what you wanted to see.  For example, your amp not being there, not being able to find "Steve the Bear," seeing your dead dogs, etc.

An important thing to keep in mind is that when you're having an OBE, you are not seeing ANYTHING.  That's right.  What you THINK you are seeing is not being SEEN at all.

What is really happening is that you're PERCIEVING things.  Your mind is translating energy into objects it can relate to in its memory banks, and then constructing objects based on the results.

So sometimes, things may be there and we just don't percieve them, just like right now, in the physical, we only percieve visual light rays and not ultraviolet light, or radio waves.

Also, when you are out, you have to understand that there is energy all around you.  You may find yourself in your house, and all of the sudden, you see a relative of yours in the front room, which would normally be physically impossible, because this particular relative may live far, far away.  Does this mean the relative is just a creation of your mind?  I don't believe so.  

You see, just as some people can communicate almost non-verbally in the physical (as is the case with some twins and other close relationships), we do the same in the astral, only much easier.  This is why, I believe, that particular relative could be in your house when you know they really aren't there.  Because you are communicating with one particular aspect of their multi-dimensional personality.

I have also seen my dead animals around the house, and at the time of the projection, you don't really think too much about it.  It was only after I came back that I was like, "Oh man!  That was my dog who's been dead for years!"

Now about projecting into the RTZ, I would say if you can feel the separation from your body, and if you're mentally and energetically stable, there is a good chance that you will find yourself there right away.  Just because you see "reality fluctuations" doesn't mean you aren't there, IMO.  You're just percieving things differently than what you expected.

Expectations are like coats at a party.  You need to check them at the door!

[holy reality]

so............

it is possible for me to contact REAL people (still living) even if I'm in a completely unreal cartoon like fantasy environment?

Being in the RTZ or just being in a lucid dream doesn't matter at all?

How then, would I go about creating something and manifesting it into the physical, if doing so is possible? And is it any different than creating somthing in the dream scene?

Because like, when I'm lucid dreaming I don't want to go hurting people that are actually "real" per se, and I don't want to somehow do something in my dreams that will later affect my life.

And I still really want to know why I don't see auras around people and how I would go about finding a sleeping person in my house (or anywhere) and pulling them out of their body.

If these things are possible...

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by holy reality
it is possible for me to contact REAL people (still living) even if I'm in a completely unreal cartoon like fantasy environment?

In my opinion, yes.  You can contact real people even though you are percieving what appears to be a cartoon environment.  Imagine like you're playing an online network game.  You may be in a futuristic environment, but thanks to TCP/IP, you can interact with your friends in this virtual world.

quote:
How then, would I go about creating something and manifesting it into the physical, if doing so is possible? And is it any different than creating somthing in the dream scene?

I would say in order to create something in the astral and have it manifest in the physical, it would take an incredible amount of energy and concentration.  Personally, I think it's a big waste of time, considering all the other things we still have to learn and discover about this other hidden reality.

quote:
Because like, when I'm lucid dreaming I don't want to go hurting people that are actually "real" per se, and I don't want to somehow do something in my dreams that will later affect my life.

Is there a reason why you would want to "hurt" people even if you knew it wasn't real?  Do you desire to beat up people in your dreams?

quote:
And I still really want to know why I don't see auras around people and how I would go about finding a sleeping person in my house (or anywhere) and pulling them out of their body.

Pulling people out of their body isn't as easy as it sounds.  It's the same as waking a person up who's heavily medicated.  Even if they do get up, they often won't be in their right mind, and usually will have no memory of the situation.  I have both tried to lift someone out of their body, and been lifted out.  In both cases, the person being lifted out had no memory of the experience.

[ralphm]

Holy reality, I think your experiences are pretty much normal for us everyday people and it takes a great deal of energy/awareness to experience stuff that you read about in books like Robert Bruces, Robert Monroe's ect. I also have seen stuff like you describe and I think what we are seeing is dream imagery coming into our minds that distracts and competes with what is really there.Maybe with more practice we can not be fooled and see more of what is really there.

[Phanuel]

If I may spout some of my own theories here...

Bruce says that the real-time zone is the level of reality CLOSEST to physical reality.  This means that its still a reality of energy and not what we think of as physical matter.  Its like the penumbra in that White Wolf game Werewolf, if you're familiar with that.  Its the closest reflection of the physical universe.

 Some people believe that the physical universe is given its existence from several different sub layers of energatic realities.  This includes our own physical existences.  We live in the physical universe and underneath that is the real-time zone, which is more maleable, and underneath that is something more vague and more maleable to thought.  Our bodies exist in several energetic layers each closer in appearance to what our actual physical bodies look like.  As though we are being refined from the energy of the universe.  The "world" is the same.

In the real-time zone, as someone said earlier, things respond to your thoughts.  I suggest you read The Holographic Universe... there are a lot of interesting theories in that book as to how we shape the universe with our thoughts.  However, you are affecting what you are percieving with your thoughts... conscious or sub-.

There is a part in the movie Waking Life where a guy is talking about how, biologically, we have mental barriers that keep us from blending the waking perception of something and the mental perception.  In dreams our brains can't differentiate from doing an action and dreaming it.  To the brain its the same thing.  When we are awake and conscious, however, we have biological filters that prevent the thought of something from being mistaken for the "real" thing.  The reason for this is that if we were to percieve, say, a predator everytime we thought of one then we would be in sad shape to survive in the world.

In the real-time zone, though, you've left your body and brain behind you.  Things are resonding to your thoughts.  Just go with it I guess.  Try not to expect things or let your mind wander from what you are doing at the moment.  Get your Zen on. []

Anyway... those are my rambling thoughts on your problem.

[Jeff_Mash]

Very insightful, Phanuel.  You said exactly what I was trying to say, but probably better.  []

[quetzalcoatl]

Yes, Nice post Phanuel.  

Now I'll try.

The astral, including RTZ, conforms to what we expect to see.  That is it's nature I would say.  It is a deciever!  Not in a bad way, it's just that it conforms to thought.  This isn't stressed enough and could be the cause of much delusion.  I will repeat this to make my point.  The astral plane will decieve you!  The astral plane will decieve you!  I have literally laughed in dreams as the characters act out my personal opinions.  I could look at it as validation of the opinions but I realized that it was the astral light conforming to my expectations.  I have been amazed at the clarity with which the astral has expressed my preconceptions.    

If you keep this in mind while oob I think that you can try to determine what is objective and what is subjective.  I think that ideas about planes and levels of reality are useful but I think they may also just be the astral molding to our expectations.  What is thinking?  What are we pursuing as we chase down and work out thoughts?  I believe we are simply painting pictures with the astral light.    

OOB, AP, All of this seems to be the sensory perception of thoughts and emotions.  Not that they don't have an objective existence though.  We do communicate....Some better than others(as I look at the incongruent mess I just created).

[Jeff_Mash]

quetzalcoatl,

Very nicely said.  I agree with everything.  If I may add to that, I believe in everything you said, but there is another facet of complexity that I want to touch on.

Not only will the astral conform to your thoughts, but I believe it can conform to the thoughts of those around you.

For example, if you and I were both projecting at the same time, and you imagined a big purple elephant 30 feet in front of you, I'm of the opinion that I would see the same thing (if looking).  Why?  Because in creating that elephant, you sent out creative thought energy and brought it into existence.  Since you and I would be operating in the same environment (astral, thought responsive, etc), I could pick up on this energy you sent out and see your creation.

This is why, I believe, places like the Astral Pulse Island can be viewed and shared by a multitude of people.

So as you can see, not only does the astral conform to your thoughts, but also to those around you, which is why it may be difficult, say, to be someone's pet monkey and perform all kinds of card reading experiments for them!

[holy reality]

quote:Is there a reason why you would want to "hurt" people even if you knew it wasn't real? Do you desire to beat up people in your dreams?

It depends... not under normal circumstances but there are times when I highly enjoy a good battle with someone, if lucid, even better... there's no bat intent there but I do engage in what would be violent acts in real life.

And I do sometimes go berserk on things if they won't leave me alone or I'm freaked out and perceive them as dangerous/negative.

And I will tend to have sex with just about any good looking female I can encounter while dreaming... so it's like... what if they are sometimes real? Am I raping them? What are the guidelines for that, if any? I mean they have been unwililng at times, but I think it's becuase I thought they would be to begin with, thus it doesn't matter because they are just creations of my mind.

But what if they aren't? Up until a while ago I would have thought it ridiculous to be able to actually do things to REAL people while dreaming, but now I'm not so sure, so this kind of worries me that I could have been doing those things to real people from time to time.

How are you supposed to determine whether they are real people or not? It seems impossible for everytime you dream about someone, for them to be in that dream with you dreaming the same thing (though my friend and I had that happen to us once as kids, sort of)... becuase say you know 5 people, and they each dream about you one night, are you 5 places at once? This doesn't seem likely given that I can often remember every sleeping moment spent in dream.

So ..... also how do you know if you're really talking to a REAL person, like say, sometimes I'll try to summon someone I know, but they dont' look right, or I do summon them but they behave strangely, or they can't tell me objective information that makes any sense.

Short of asking them to call you when they wake up, is there any sort of way to know if who you are interacting with is real? Because I don't want to like keep pestering people in their dreaming lives.

[holy reality]

PLEASE answer my questions, I'm having a lot of doubt about all of this and I'm in need of ANY responses to ANY questions asked...

I'm having a lot of doubts... I've projected a lot, I'd say upwards of 10-15 times throughout the past few months.. I guess that isn't a "lot" per se but I think it would be enough....

I have only once stepped into my room, to have it look NORMAL, and I have NEVER been able to find any proof that I'm really actually in my room and out of my body.

In fact, there is no silver cord, there is usually no body on my bed, or if there is, it doesn't look like me. If I look in the mirror I tend to see myself... my hands do not melt (though i don't recall staring at them for very long).... I cannot go around my room looking for a curious object, then take note of it and go find it when I wake up.

I cannot find my sleeping family/dogs and pull them out of their bodies... I have seen my sleeping dogs before but, well... TWO OF THEM HAVE BEEN DEAD FOR A LONG TIME, yet there they were... just like normal

I cannot do any of the things that seem to be associated with the RTZ, or reproduce any epxeriment results for testing the validity of OBE experiences like I read about (i.e. pulling people in a room next to you out of their body, or going and finding real objects and telling them what they are).

WTF is going on? It's documented enough on both nutty and scientific sites to make me think that there's a good possibility these experiences could be "real" per se, and yet, they aren't.

Last night I was having a lucid dream, and I stretched out my arms and focused on my sleeping body, boom.. I'm back in it.. and I had mild vibrations, I spent a good 10 minutes trying to get my mind clear enough to get out, and evetually I exited my body very smoothly and was in my room.

Looking at old furniture. No computer to be seen, no amp to be seen.

I look at the books in my room, they aren't real books, they are just colored with pretty much no text. I look in my drawer... and I see some weird creation that I supposedly made as a child.. it was kind of cute... I get the notion that maybe I'm in the past... which would make sense giving my dead dogs being alive when I exited recently, but... if so, why am I projecting into the past... and I mean...

My MOM AND BROTHER are in the hall... so this time at least I can say I'm not in the past, since my brother is more or less the same age as he is now... so WTF is going on? I'm just lucid dreaming? How come? I EXITED MY BODY FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!! I'm 99% positive that when I phased back into my body from the lucid dream that I was in a real trance state, and not just imagining things... so why is this? Is my subconcious mind trying to seize control and throw me immediately back into a dreaming environment? I mean.. it makes no sense....

I wish that I could project during the day so that I might increase my chances of not going into an unrealistic dream environment, but I haven't been able to yet... but surely out of all the times I have induced vibrations and stepped out of my body I would have managed to enter an accurate RTZ at least ONCE?

I mean, I do recall, vaguely, one experience where my computer was in my room, and things looked normal as far as I could tell, but I still don't think my amp was there.

Actually I'm recalling this experience where I tried to give myself a new amp, and my old one was there.. but I'm not sure if the rest of the room was accurate, and I think it was a dream and not a vibration induced projection.

What am I doing wrong? When I'm in trance do I need to try to do energy work? Becuase I've done energy work before and it's only taken me to even less realistic dream like places... are my chakras just not developed enough to be able to go to RTZ? But then how come when I do do energy work I get really freaking weird and intense sensations.. like this one time I was working on my base chakra two nights ago and I felt a spark at the bottom of my spine then I felt really cold and tingly electricity flowing up and down my spine... I would think to be able to get those kind of feelings having only done his NEW energy excercises three or so times would mean my chakras are fairly open ? So... are they just not open enough? Do I need to try to get that electrical feel pulsing through my body while I'm undergoing vibrations? Why would I though? Aren't the vibrations THEMSELVES a signal that your chakras are wide open?

Or is this all just BS and a creation of the mind to begin with and I will never go to a RTZ or do anything that can be verified in real life, like contact fellow projectors and friends?

Also while I was OBE today I tried to call upon this guardian I created two nights ago, "Steve the bear" complete with a built in chaingun in his chest, quite a fun creation to make... well.. he didn't come... though stuffed animal bears started appearing in the room.

I tried to recreate him but couldn't... yet it was so easy the first time to create him.. Why is that? I was just about as conscious and aware then as I was last time, yet I couldn't get him to appear, and I couldn't recreate him, or anything else...

Did I not create him for real? I poured a lot of "energy" into him and he stayed with me that entire nights worth of dreams pretty much... and he would help me leave my body when I called his name, yet he's gone now.. why? Did I not put enough energy into him to allow him to reside in the astral for a long time? Was I really in the RTZ today and just a mirrored somewhat innaccurate version of the past, and you can't create creatures in the real world like that due to them running amok and causing problems? Then how come Bruce wrote about being in the RTZ and making himself a car, which he ended up getting a few days later? But if it isn't possible to make creatures in the real world (i wasn't intending to make him in the real world though) Then that would mean I wasn't RTZ the first time I created him, yet my room more or less looked exactly the same as it did now....

So how do I differentiate if that is the case, between the RTZ and just an astral recreation of my room or lucid dream? I'm so confused it isn't even funny... but there seems to be no reason for me to have not been able to recreate that bear... it was so easy the first time, and I've seen so many pictures of bears in my life that I should be able to conjure one up, even if it doesn't look horribly real, at least I should be able to get it moving and talking to me.

Also, how come if I'm not blind when leaving the body (which is very rare) when I see myself pull my hands out (which has only happened once or twice) they are white and translucent, yet.. once I'm out of my body I seem to have normal hands? I guess my mind is just accustomed to having a body maybe, but... it seems like I'm in a real OBE environment while leaving but as soon as I'm on the ground I'm in a lucid dream... or something?

Please help.