The Astral Pulse

K I just got done messaging someone from the IAC (international academy of consciousness) who explained (not fully) a method of shifting energy up and down your body to eventually project. Would this be simply referring to chi? I am trying to find out more about what this person has explained but can't find a lot. Does anyone here know what this person could be referring to exactly?

This is what the person said when I was asking about it and said I was skeptical:

"You will know that it is real because you now the difference between imagination and real life. Being skeptical and having a critical awareness is fundamental to recognize a real OBE experience, so you are in your way! If you want to check by yourself if what you feel is real you will have to test yourself. First by knowing you better. Start by checking and recognizing what you normally feel being normal, then try the tecnique and check what you feel and see if its different."

I really am not sure whether or not to believe any of this hidden energy like chi claims as it seems it cannot be measured and is not proven which has always kept me away from any techniques claiming to project by using some type of "energy".

So what you guys think?

I think it's hopus pocus! Forget the energy bollocks. You don't need that. If you feel any energy waves during sleep paralysis (which is more likely to be the perception of the firing of neurons rather than this chi business) , it is up to you to play around with them with your mind. It isn't necessary though.

This is all I do to project: I go to bed at around midnight and wake up around 3am or 4am. I use the toilet and go down to induce an OOBE. I start by relaxing deeply and because I've been primed by my pre-nap/sleep, it doesn't take long for me to enter the Phase as the body falls asleep and the mind remains aware. Once the vibrations kick in, I let them peak, and, as they dwindle, I make an effort to separate by usually rolling over and out. This movement is NOT imagined. Do it as though you are moving physically. I find it easier to start from the head and the rest of the "body" will follow. Other times I'm just ejected out or I simply get out of bed to find that I've separated. This is how I enter the Phase most of the time. It is simpler than what people make it out to be.

The rest is history! The history that goes in your OOBE journal. 8-)

Energy feels pretty real to me when I'm doing energy work in a normal waking mind state.  I don't know how it affects AP but I think it probably does.  I don't think you should be too concerned with it for projection's sake though.  That's more of a mental thing.

Quote from: Jarrod on June 20, 2011, 13:13:14
Energy feels pretty real to me when I'm doing energy work in a normal waking mind state.

Could you tell me briefly what your energy work entails? thx.

Quote from: Bellend_1010 on June 20, 2011, 12:25:43
K I just got done messaging someone from the IAC (international academy of consciousness) who explained (not fully) a method of shifting energy up and down your body to eventually project. Would this be simply referring to chi? I am trying to find out more about what this person has explained but can't find a lot. Does anyone here know what this person could be referring to exactly?

This is what the person said when I was asking about it and said I was skeptical:

"You will know that it is real because you now the difference between imagination and real life. Being skeptical and having a critical awareness is fundamental to recognize a real OBE experience, so you are in your way! If you want to check by yourself if what you feel is real you will have to test yourself. First by knowing you better. Start by checking and recognizing what you normally feel being normal, then try the tecnique and check what you feel and see if its different."

I really am not sure whether or not to believe any of this hidden energy like chi claims as it seems it cannot be measured and is not proven which has always kept me away from any techniques claiming to project by using some type of "energy".

So what you guys think?

It wont hurt to try it out. If your having problems achieving astral projection then give it a shot.

I dont meditate or practice any type of stuff like energy work and I project just about every night, so its definitely not necessary.

As I lay there relaxed attempting to have an OBE, sometimes it goes smoothly right to the vibrations and then I exit. Other Xs Ill get strong energy sensations all leading up to the exit vibration. One way or another, your ultimate goal is to astral project, so keep trying different things till you finally master it.

QuoteEnergy feels pretty real to me when I'm doing energy work in a normal waking mind state.

QuoteCould you tell me briefly what your energy work entails? thx.

It's basically Robert Bruce's NEW exercise.  I started at my feet several months ago and only proceeded further up my body as I became able to feel sensation there.  Now I do a full body circuit most every day.  It takes 20-30 minutes.  The technique is learned by touch.  Touch a part of your body and really pay attention to the sensation, then try to recreate that same sensation from memory without touching.  It's called tactile imaging and teaches you how to move your awareness/focus around in your body.  Moving the point of focus around stimulates the energy body.  As my point of focus is moving through my body I feel a mild...I don't really know what else to call it except energy, at that point.  I have to go slow and hold my focus to feel it.  Sometimes I feel spontaneous energy rushes which are stronger than the feelings I get while doing energy work, and sometimes a constant sensation in a specific random place will last several days.

Quote from: Bellend_1010 on June 20, 2011, 12:25:43
K I just got done messaging someone from the IAC (international academy of consciousness) who explained (not fully) a method of shifting energy up and down your body to eventually project. Would this be simply referring to chi? I am trying to find out more about what this person has explained but can't find a lot. Does anyone here know what this person could be referring to exactly?

Your friend is describing energy work, and the description of this exercise looks a lot like energy body loosening, a step that is very beneficial when used in an exit attempt, if you are attempting to OBE with separation.

QuoteThis is what the person said when I was asking about it and said I was skeptical:

"You will know that it is real because you now the difference between imagination and real life. Being skeptical and having a critical awareness is fundamental to recognize a real OBE experience, so you are in your way! If you want to check by yourself if what you feel is real you will have to test yourself. First by knowing you better. Start by checking and recognizing what you normally feel being normal, then try the tecnique and check what you feel and see if its different."

I don't know what people mean by 'real', but energy is what all matter is made of, so you either use it or don't- it's up to you.  I'm not sure why belief has to be attached to it.

It has been experimentally demonstrated that putting your attention on a body part causes the circulation to be stimulated (study quoted in the book Molecules of Emotion, by Dr. Candace Pert, the researcher that discovered endorphins).  This doesn't 'prove' anything, since causality is not determined.  But experienced projectors use energy work, and it is beneficial- martial arts use energy work, Tai Chi and Chi Kung is energy work, and pranayama is energy work.  You will notice that the folks that invented energy work are the ones that wrote the most about meditation and the astral.
Coincidence?
NEW, as someone else described, is the conceptual child of Robert Bruce, who managed to come up with a system using western concepts and exercises for moving energy, without the sometimes religious or 'mysterious' themes that accompany the old methods.

ps.  Chi is just a name; energy is simply the capacity to do work.
So, yes, you don't have to do energy work to project, because the most important component of projection is the ability to control your conscious awareness at the moment your body is going to sleep, but, if you learn to project, and find that you run out of gas quickly, or want to learn more techniques to get out, you will find that energy work is beneficial, especially for having control of your energy body (navigation-wise) because one of the side effects of energy work is the ability to feel your energy body.  So your friend is right in that you will know it works when it works.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 20, 2011, 12:44:33
I think it's hopus pocus! Forget the energy bollocks. You don't need that. If you feel any energy waves during sleep paralysis (which is more likely to be the perception of the firing of neurons rather than this chi business) , it is up to you to play around with them with your mind. It isn't necessary though.

And that's why people as Ragusa take 45 minutes of standing still and have to be prepared before having an experience and have to use sleep because elsewhere they cannot do it, and that's also because many of their "experiences" serves nothing at all in a practical sense. For this "hocus pocus" (that it's not NEW or any other new age nonsense, that serves little because it's not specific, and it's not either meant to include only "energy" but in a general concept), it's actually the most important aspect of a projection if you want to do it voluntarily, speed up the process and not being a "leaf in the wind" while you project.

You just use the "body" to automatically do this "hocus pocus" in sleep and then call it "hocus-pocus". Yet, people that use this "hocus-pocus" well, can do the same thing you take 1 hour to do while requiring all the time to being primed for it, in just 5 minutes without further preparation whenever they want and they can control their experiences everytime instead of being controlled by them.

And yet you think you are the "advancement" because you don't believe in "hocus-pocus". Ah... the irony!

As for not being necessary, you are right. At beginning it can also be counterproductive. But, as in every other form of learning, what may seem to hinder at first is what makes you really advance later.

I'm not gonna get hardcore into this, but I have a way to look at it that might not be so hard to believe.

Instead of moving energy, think of it as moving your attention.

Moving energy is really about being able to direct your conscious awareness at will.

All of the energy work techniques rely on you being able to focus your awareness in a specific way (like "moving energy up and down your body" - you're really moving your attention up and down your body).

You could look at it as moving energy, but you are actually moving the focus of your attention.

You could take the next leap of imagination and say that attention/thoughts are things, and the only way we really have to describe these things is by calling them "energy".  Energy is a vague and ambiguous word that tends to mean any kind of tangible/intangible force that we really can't define through normal scientific nomenclature.  Even though attention is also kind of vague, it's still easier for us to conceptualize and apply.  So for all intents and purposes, when you see the word energy, just replace it with the word attention or awareness.

Quote from: personalreality on June 23, 2011, 12:04:45
I'm not gonna get hardcore into this, but I have a way to look at it that might not be so hard to believe.

Instead of moving energy, think of it as moving your attention.

Moving energy is really about being able to direct your conscious awareness at will.

All of the energy work techniques rely on you being able to focus your awareness in a specific way (like "moving energy up and down your body" - you're really moving your attention up and down your body).

You could look at it as moving energy, but you are actually moving the focus of your attention.

You could take the next leap of imagination and say that attention/thoughts are things, and the only way we really have to describe these things is by calling them "energy".  Energy is a vague and ambiguous word that tends to mean any kind of tangible/intangible force that we really can't define through normal scientific nomenclature.  Even though attention is also kind of vague, it's still easier for us to conceptualize and apply.  So for all intents and purposes, when you see the word energy, just replace it with the word attention or awareness.

I really couldn't agree more.

I believe they're simply different metaphors that people use that describe the same thing.

Energy, itself, is simply a metaphor people use to describe something that enacts change.  Because, the reality is for us humans that if change happens... then something caused it.  If you healed someone, well obviously someone did something... that something is that you sent "energy".

Oh my...looks like I trod on someone's toes there. :-D

Selea, you can believe whatever you want. I'm just expressing what I think here. As for Raduga, you are wrong about him. You obviously haven't read any of his books otherwise you'd know that he's got more techniques up his sleeve other than using the pre-nap/sleep method. I suggest you read School of Out-of-Body Travel to learn more about his direct techniques.

As for energy work. You are quite right - you said it! You don't need it. And may I add, I don't use it and I am not a "leaf in the wind". All you really need is intent and belief that you can perform your manoeuvres. It's not down to "energy", it's down to confidence... 8-)

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 14:33:01
Selea, you can believe whatever you want. I'm just expressing what I think here. As for Raduga, you are wrong about him. You obviously haven't read any of his books otherwise you'd know that he's got more techniques up his sleeve other than using the pre-nap/sleep method. I suggest you read School of Out-of-Body Travel to learn more about his direct techniques.

I've read his book, and well, and I know exactly of what I talk about thank you. ALL his techniques have sleep as the onset. Please quote me a technique of that book that doesn't use sleep and that is done voluntarily, when one wants. I'm curious. If you refer to the "direct" techniques then you should read them a little better, because the only change from them and "indirect" is the moment they are used, not the way they are used.

And what's worse is that in all the book he insists on him knowing better, and that what he clearly doesn't either understand then it must not exists. A shame that he cannot either devise a method to do what he profess being the "best" way in a VOLUNTARY matter, without using sleep, and this thing has been done (and I'm speaking only about literature here) from more than a century. But naturally, he knows more... how not. The simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

Sadly this seems to be the trend lately. All this pseudo-scientific people claiming they know more, and yet when you go in practice I see only people that think they are so smart because they just crossed the river swimming, taking 3 hours, when actually people are already camping on the other side from two hours and 45 minutes because they used a boat that the people swimming insists is only "mumbo-jumbo".

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 14:33:01
As for energy work. You are quite right - you said it! You don't need it. And may I add, I don't use it and I am not a "leaf in the wind".

You are. However to understand it first you must understand your status as a leaf. You say you are not. I guess you can decide where you will end when you project, isn't it? I guess you can direct your travel BEFORE you start, right? I guess you can direct yourself there as you do in normal life, with all your conscience and not only "impulse" directing you, isn't it?

Actually, Raduga does not say in any way that if he doesn't understand it then it must not exist. Raduga is very pragmatic. And there is nothing pseudo about the science he references. Where is the pseudo in anything he has written? show me! :-D

Even about the afterlife, he does not disclaim it, he simply states there is no real evidence for it. He also states in his book that you can project during the day but that you should start using the pre-sleep method. This is, undoubtedly, good advice. I think you need to revise it and refrain from your oxymoronic statements.

He does not claim to know better either, he is simply letting people know that he has experience which is true. The people who came up with the body of Light (talk about pseudo :roll:) are the ones who are claiming to know things which, to be frank, have not been proven to exist. I understand that you may be biased by those belief systems, but, if you take a step back, you will see the bigger picture. These energy systems and "body of light" are just concepts that someone, with very little scientific knowledge at that time, came up with to explain away certain sensations which can still be illusions concocted by the brain until proved otherwise.

QuoteThe simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

And this is where you and Raduga differ. While Raduga clearly states in SOBT that individuals differ and different methods may be more suitable to some but not others...you claim that your method of preference is the best. :roll:

And what's with the VOLUNTARY? If you have a nap and you wake up, you are priming yourself biologically for the experience. The sleep inertia symptoms indicate that the brain is hungry for REM and it is likely to enter it at the first opportunity it gets quicker than usual (like in narcolepsy). Note: you have primed yourself. You are facilitating Phase entry when you go down to induce. The body sleeps (becomes naturally atonic) and your mind remains aware and applies a method of separation. It's a voluntary OOBE still, doofus!! :-D

QuoteYou are. However to understand it first you must understand your status as a leaf. You say you are not. I guess you can decide where you will end when you project, isn't it? I guess you can direct your travel BEFORE you start, right? I guess you can direct yourself there as you do in normal life, with all your conscience and not only "impulse" directing you, isn't it?

When I've achieved a certain degree of focus in the Phase, I can control it and direct it. But this is not always the case and anyone who claims to do this every time they project is telling porkies in my opinion. By the way, don't be so deluded about "normal" life as you say. Did you know that activity in the motor regions of the brain flares up before you even become aware that you are going to move a limb? :wink:

QuoteThe simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

I have read of using the imagination to create a 'double' and transferring the attention to that as a means of astral projecting. Is this what you are talking about?

I am also interested in a few examples of what 'destinations' you are referring to. I have targeted places on Earth, places in the astral, causal, points in time, etc.  It seems very few people actually do this or at least if they do, very few speak of their results. From what I read on most of these forums very few projectors are accomplishing much of anything in their travels.

edit; and when you say "VOLUNTARY" ... I think you meant "at will"...? This is of course the Holy Grail for APers, imo. If you have a method of teaching this effectively, I am all ears.

Quote from: Selea on June 23, 2011, 15:11:10
If you refer to the "direct" techniques then you should read them a little better, because the only change from them and "indirect" is the moment they are used, not the way they are used.

Actually, that's correct, Selea... well, in my opinion at least.

One is done from having primed your consciousness with pre-sleep (indirect) and the other is done from any point during your day (direct) NOT after pre-sleep.  You can essentially use *ANY* method at any point during your day (after sleep or otherwise).

I mean, he says some stuff that I firmly disagree with... but, he also says a lot of good stuff which I do firmly agree with.  All the particulars are just his opinion.  Meh... no biggie.  Take what resonates with you and leave the rest... find the commonalities between his metaphors and yours.

QuoteThe simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

How is this claim by you any different than the claims you're lambasting Raduga with?
Is this not you "insisting" that this "Body of Light" technique is "better" than anything he teaches?  And I'm rather puzzled by what the length of time that it's been available means... does that make it "two centuries better"?   Your claims puzzle me Selea.

Suffice to say, I used to be quite against Raduga and his ebook... but it's actually a pretty good read, and the fact that it's actually helped *A LOT* of people is great in my opinion.  For the most part, he seems to have a solid grasp of what he's talking about.

I don't suppose you'd be open to sharing this "simple" Body of Light method that you speak so highly of?  I think the members of the Astral Pulse would greatly appreciate that.  :)

Quote from: Rudolph on June 23, 2011, 15:45:15
I have read of using the imagination to create a 'double' and transferring the attention to that as a means of astral projecting. Is this what you are talking about?

I am also interested in a few examples of what 'destinations' you are referring to. I have targeted places on Earth, places in the astral, causal, points in time, etc.  It seems very few people actually do this or at least if they do, very few speak of their results. From what I read on most of these forums very few projectors are accomplishing much of anything in their travels.

Oh, here we go...I'm trying to target the astral, mental, Buddhic, monadic, moronic... :roll:

Ok... :-D

Quote from: Xanth on June 23, 2011, 15:48:07
Actually, that's correct, Selea.  
One is done from having primed your consciousness with pre-sleep (indirect) and the other is done from any point during your day (direct) NOT after pre-sleep.  You can essentially use *ANY* method at any point during your day (after sleep or otherwise).

Yes you can...but in both you relax yourself. Without relaxation (physical and mental) neither is possible. Priming with a nap helps you to relax quicker. Some individuals are good at relaxing regardless. Both ways get you to the same place. so what's the beef about this here. what is the point in pointing it out? different ways - same result! In both you can play around with the waves and vibes which in mu opinion are nothing but feedback from the polarisation and depolarisation of neurons. They give the illusion of this "energy" which in the state of consciousness that you are in, you then manifest the belief that you are controlling their flow when in reality you are sinchronising your mind with the flow...sort of like when the motor regions of the brain become active before you even decide to move when you are awake. Then the Phase...and I don't need to mention that this place/state is full of illusions, do I?

By the way, Raduga also talks about doing it before sleep...not just at the onset as Selea claimed! :-D

But, who cares. Selea, if you want to adopt another's perspective (from centuries ago) rather than developing your own - be my guest. :roll:

Quote from: Xanth on June 23, 2011, 15:48:07
I don't suppose you'd be open to sharing this "simple" Body of Light method that you speak so highly of?  I think the members of the Astral Pulse would greatly appreciate that.  :)

Remember the thread about the butler method that I opened on AVers? That's the "Body of Light" method. It involves visualisation and meditation. You create a metaphysical double and animate it so that you can then attempt to acquire a perspective from your double's point of view. This is what Raduga would call a grave mistake for the newbies to start here.

You need to be good at visualising and be strong-willed in the belief that it will happen. It is like phasing made more complicated and employing an unnecessary "out-of-the-body" teleport.

It is commendable that newbies start with the pre-sleep method first before attempting other method which prove to be more challenging. In the end, the result is the same: the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._Butler

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
Yes you can...but in both you relax yourself. Without relaxation (physical and mental) neither is possible.

I'm actually of the opinion that relaxation isn't of paramount concern.  It *DOES* help, especially if you're a beginner, but it's not required.

QuoteRemember the thread about the butler method that I opened on AVers? That's the "Body of Light" method. It involves visualisation and meditation. You create a metaphysical double and animate it so that you can then attempt to acquire a perspective from your double's point of view. This is what Raduga would call a grave mistake for the newbies to start here.

Interesting.  I'll have to go find that.
Hopefully Selea can let us know if that's the one she's referring to.  I'll have to give my opinion on it tomorrow as it's late now and I'm pooped.
But I imagine I'll be able to find the commonality between it and other methods rather quickly.

QuoteIt is commendable that newbies start with the pre-sleep method first before attempting other method which prove to be more challenging. In the end, the result is the same: the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD).

I'd actually suggest all beginners start with it, unless they have a firm background in meditation.  I feel it's the easiest way to initially begin your non-physical experiences.  :)

Quote from: Rudolph on June 23, 2011, 15:45:15
edit; and when you say "VOLUNTARY" ... I think you meant "at will"...? This is of course the Holy Grail for APers, imo. If you have a method of teaching this effectively, I am all ears.

It takes training and it's not a *singular* practice. Certainly that there are methods. To begin with: learn Raja Yoga and learn the Middle Pillar excercise in steps, until you master it.

Quote from: Xanth on June 23, 2011, 15:48:07
One is done from having primed your consciousness with pre-sleep (indirect) and the other is done from any point during your day (direct) NOT after pre-sleep.  You can essentially use *ANY* method at any point during your day (after sleep or otherwise).

True, but the methods described in that book works only if you use sleep. The difference in that book about "direct" and "indirect" is just one about the time lapse when sleep is used. In the indirect sleep is used inbetween the attempt, in the "direct" sleep is used during the attempt.

Also if you can think the "direct" method as being available all the time, they are not because they still require sleep for them to work; i.e. the physical body must be in a sleep state for them to work.

A real voluntary method doesn't *need* sleep as a "catapult" to reach projection.

Quote from: Xanth on June 23, 2011, 15:48:07
I mean, he says some stuff that I firmly disagree with... but, he also says a lot of good stuff which I do firmly agree with.  All the particulars are just his opinion.  Meh... no biggie.  Take what resonates with you and leave the rest... find the commonalities between his metaphors and yours.

As I said many times I don't care about "agrees" or "disagrees". I care about what is correct and what isn't. In this case pretending you are using a "scientific" approach to the thing and then just caring about what you think is "legit" or it isn't, is not scientific at all.

Quote from: Xanth on June 23, 2011, 15:48:07
Is this not you "insisting" that this "Body of Light" technique is "better" than anything he teaches?  And I'm rather puzzled by what the length of time that it's been available means... does that make it "two centuries better"?   Your claims puzzle me Selea.

It's "better" in the sense that it does something specific and it's either basic and advanced at the same time. The Body of Light has everything in itself because it is both a projection method as it is a controlling method. For this my remark on it being "better" than all that book togheter. There's no form of control in that book, there's no form of teaching you how to either begin understanding how you can setup your work on a way that you can learn to control the experience instead of being controlled by it, if you are interested on learning it. All that doesn't interest to the author is labeled as "mumbo-jumbo" or nonsense.

The sad reality is that people these days (also in these sort of forums) are usually more interested in having the experience instead of learning how to really control it. But, speaking in Jungian terms, what good it does to open the subconsious if then you become a slave of it?

Sleep methods are very easy to learn, but they don't give you control. You don't know where you will end before you start, and what you will really do out there since your consciousness is only partial. For example you can decide before to do this and that only to find out that you have done all another thing. This because there's always a "lapse", a black-out of your consciousness for a sleep method to work, this is inevitable, and that lapse make you lose a part of your consciousness in the process.

Quote from: Xanth on June 23, 2011, 15:48:07
Suffice to say, I used to be quite against Raduga and his ebook... but it's actually a pretty good read, and the fact that it's actually helped *A LOT* of people is great in my opinion.  For the most part, he seems to have a solid grasp of what he's talking about.

What I don't like in that book is not what Ragusa "teaches". Those are things that have been teached in shamanic texts from years and years. What I don't like is the approach he has on the thing. He approaches it as if only what he cares about exists, and the rest is just inexistent, or "mumbo-jumbo".

Also I in these forums usually neither talk about more advanced things because I know they can be an hindrance at beginning and I also know that the majority are neither interested in them.

Quote from: Xanth on June 23, 2011, 15:48:07
I don't suppose you'd be open to sharing this "simple" Body of Light method that you speak so highly of?  I think the members of the Astral Pulse would greatly appreciate that.  :)

It's quite simple. It is the technique of building a body to whom to transfer the consciouness on. The "body" is usually built (on the basic form you see listed normally) from a "tought form". Naturally this is the basic form of the method. Done in its full form it is much more complex and it is done by creating the body from the molding of the light arised from doing excercises as the Middle Pillar till you have mastered it fully. When you have done so you can literally "mold" the "energy" built to construct a "body" on whom to transfer your consciounsess.

The advantages are that: A) you can do it whenever you want when you have mastered it, B) you have full consciousness as in "normal" life, C) you have a controlled vehicle that you can use to do specific things and that it has many more advantages in the control when you are "outside", E) the "vehicle" acquires a sort of "life" of his own, and it can be used to do many more things than simply using it as a container for you consciousness.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
Oh, here we go...I'm trying to target the astral, mental, Buddhic, monadic, moronic... :roll:

Ok... :-D

As you want. You can joke with me but can you with yourself?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
Yes you can...but in both you relax yourself. Without relaxation (physical and mental) neither is possible. Priming with a nap helps you to relax quicker. Some individuals are good at relaxing regardless.

A) Relaxing is not the same as putting your physical to sleep. A thing that all the methods in those books need.
B) If you say that relaxing is needed then it must be so. Just FYI I know at last 6 people that can project while walking.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
Both ways get you to the same place. so what's the beef about this here.

Again, if you say so then it must be as you say.

You see, what makes me sad it is not the fact that you think this way, but that you are so sure about it without giving anything else an option, acting as you already knew it as if you were a master without either having tried or having cared to. Have you ever tried yourself doing what you consider "hocus-pocus" really, with an open mind and not just for a day? If you haven't how can you be so sure it's just "hocus-pocus"?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
what is the point in pointing it out? different ways - same result!

And then you say you are not a "leaf in the wind". You have always the same result because you cannot direct your experience.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56In both you can play around with the waves and vibes which in mu opinion are nothing but feedback from the polarisation and depolarisation of neurons.

What they "really" are or what they aren't doesn't concerns me in the last. Doing certain things certain results happens. This is the only thing that matters.

The only thing that matters is that I don't care if those things are neurons discharges or not, but if that you use them (among many others "hocus-pocus" things) you can control your experience, while if you don't you cannot, as it is testified by your messages much too well. The rest is just silly talk.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
Then the Phase...and I don't need to mention that this place/state is full of illusions, do I?

Also "real" life is, and so? Naturally the more you are out of control the more the illusions are strong, as, again, in "real" life.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
By the way, Raduga also talks about doing it before sleep...not just at the onset as Selea claimed! :-D

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. For the methods to work your body must enter the sleep state, or they will never work. In fact why do you suppose they are to be done before *sleep*?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
But, who cares. Selea, if you want to adopt another's perspective (from centuries ago) rather than developing your own - be my guest.

Apart that you clearly don't understand the difference of having an "own" perspective and just selecting then one you prefer from those already existent, a shame that the "own" (are you kidding me or are you serious?) perspective of Ragusa is a thousand times worser than the one of centuries ago. It is much less open minded, it is much less grounded on practical results, it is much less interested in personal research instead of "teaching" others.  

So, if just to not abide to a perspective of centuries ago I have to abide to a prospective that's clearly worser in practice in many ways, I prefer to stay in the past, thanks.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
Remember the thread about the butler method that I opened on AVers? That's the "Body of Light" method. It involves visualisation and meditation. You create a metaphysical double and animate it so that you can then attempt to acquire a perspective from your double's point of view. This is what Raduga would call a grave mistake for the newbies to start here.

I never said it is a method to start (also if it can be if you have patience instead of wanting immediate results). I said it is much better than all the book of Ragusa. The fact is that you are missing why it's that so.

There's often more about things (especially of a certain nature) than it seems. Have you ever wondered why for example it is usually remarked that the *most important* part of that excercise is not the transfer of consciousness but the actual building of the "body"? It if was simple an excercise of "phasing" it would have been much simpler to just make the student visualize the room from a first perspective from beginning, isn't it? What would be the purpose of you wasting time on buiding a figure?

But I guess since you suppose you know better that's so because they didn't really get what they were teaching about, mistaking a thing for another, and they just wasted time in "hocus-pocus" instead of really caring about "meaningful" things.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
You need to be good at visualising and be strong-willed in the belief that it will happen. It is like phasing made more complicated and employing an unnecessary "out-of-the-body" teleport.

A) No, you don't need to be good at visualizing (it can help at beginning but it's not required).
B) No, you don't need to believe that it will happen. You just need to don't have doubts that it will not happen (but this can be said about any method)
C) No, it's not a phasing method.

In short, you don't know how it works and you think you are an expert about it, good to know.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
It is commendable that newbies start with the pre-sleep method first before attempting other method which prove to be more challenging. In the end, the result is the same: the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD).

The only thing commendable is not insisting that what you don't know and you don't care to know it doesn't exists or it is as you think it is.

That's the only thing commendable.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 23, 2011, 15:56:56
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._Butler

So you now want to tell me who Butler was? And just so you know that "method" was not created by Butler but he surely was the first to explain the "full" method (also if in a basic form only understandable by people already knowing it) in one of his books. He was a member of SOL, that was a branch born from Golden Dawn members.

Thank you for clarifying your opinions on this subject Selea.  It's much appreciated.  :)

Quote from: Selea on June 24, 2011, 05:30:49
It takes training and it's not a *singular* practice. Certainly that there are methods. To begin with: learn Raja Yoga and learn the Middle Pillar excercise in steps, until you master it.

My question was about whether you have an effective method for teaching this ability to project at will. Your reply did not answer that question.

If I ask, "Do you know the way to San Jose?" a good answer would be either yes or no. To reply, "point that way and start walking" is not helpful at that stage of the game. First things first. What if it takes two weeks to get there on foot and I only have 2 days?

But.. since you mention it... just curious, which "Middle Pillar" method are you referring to? And if I start learning Raja Yoga how long will it take and how will I know when I have "learned" it?

Ok, Selea...LOL! I'm sorry but I can't take you seriously when you even get his name wrong. It is Raduga and not Ragusa. :-D

QuoteThose are things that have been teached in shamanic texts from years and years. What I don't like is the approach he has on the thing. He approaches it as if only what he cares about exists, and the rest is just inexistent, or "mumbo-jumbo".

"Taught"...also, it's called being "pragmatic". He is not claiming that things don't exist...he is merely focusing on what is a given and what's relevant. Get a dictionary.

You have clearly never tried the pre-nap method and probably haven't ever projected at all because if you had, you'd know that with the pre-nap/sleep (or wake back to bed) method, you don't necessarily experience lapses in consciousness. In fact, more often than not, the mind is alert throughout and what is experienced is a strange shift in consciousness before separation. Where are you getting all this erroneous info from? You seriously need to try the nap method! Try it! The energy work is a waste of time. There are so many people practising it and most still don't know what they are doing. In my opinion, the scam is as clear as daylight. I asked you to point out the pseudo-science from Raduga and so far you haven't.

You need to do some serious research on sleep cycles and it is possible to do it before sleep (you will also find this in the book - do read it because I don't think you have - and if you have...well, you misunderstood its content. As the adenosine levels rise in the evening, you start to feel sleep and with practice, you may be able to maintain awareness as your body reaches REM atonia.

The truth is that, once you enter the Phase and you believe that the playing with the "energy" has helped you, than that is exactly what you manifest. It isn't the energy or the vibes. It is your BELIEF and EXPECTATION that delivers results. You come here pointing fingers and saying that many have no control in their experiences but so far you have shown me that you know very little (reminder: especially about what happens in the pre-sleep method). By the way, the people who enter the Phase while walking...you just believe them? :roll:

Oh dear...

QuoteA real voluntary method doesn't *need* sleep as a "catapult" to reach projection.

Here we go with the voluntary again...do yourself a favour and get a dictionary! :lol:

QuoteAs I said many times I don't care about "agrees" or "disagrees". I care about what is correct and what isn't. In this case pretending you are using a "scientific" approach to the thing and then just caring about what you think is "legit" or it isn't, is not scientific at all.

LOL! You make me laugh. If you think he's so bad why did you bother to read the whole book? You did read it all, didn't you?

QuoteThere's no form of control in that book, there's no form of teaching you how to either begin understanding how you can setup your work on a way that you can learn to control the experience instead of being controlled by it, if you are interested on learning it. All that doesn't interest to the author is labeled as "mumbo-jumbo" or nonsense.

That's why many people are projecting because of him and they claim to have developed a greater control than before - after following Raduga's advice. :roll:

QuoteSleep methods are very easy to learn, but they don't give you control. You don't know where you will end before you start, and what you will really do out there since your consciousness is only partial.

Actually, this is incorrect. I can testify that you come out fully conscious when you apply this method. Partially conscious may occur but most of the time, you are fully conscious and focused on that reality. Also, I've used this method to visit people and I've got some good results. Talk about having no control, eh? LOL! Just ask CaitHT and stoneZoMbIe in Astral Viewers. My OOBEs appeared to have provided validations or they seemed to have yielded some interesting results. And before you stoop so low as to think that she is a good friend of mine in cahoots with me...think again. She doesn't particularly like me and she live across the Atlantic from me but - she will wholeheartedly support the truth about OOBEs. 8-)

QuoteAnd then you say you are not a "leaf in the wind". You have always the same result because you cannot direct your experience.

Actually, what I meant by "same result" is that it is all the Phase, the same phenomenon. Not what you experience. what you experience is subjective and majorly dependent on your beliefs and where you mind is at. But I understand...you are looking for ways to discredit me and you feel that I've threatened your belief foundation. I understand... :-D

QuoteAlso "real" life is, and so? Naturally the more you are out of control the more the illusions are strong, as, again, in "real" life.

You don't know what you are talking about...LOL!

QuoteSo, if just to not abide to a perspective of centuries ago I have to abide to a prospective that's clearly worser in practice in many ways, I prefer to stay in the past, thanks.

I prefer to stay in the present and look forward to the future.

QuoteC) No, it's not a phasing method.

I never said it was a phasing method...I said it is LIKE that. Read properly and stop making assumptions.

QuoteThe only thing commendable is not insisting that what you don't know and you don't care to know it doesn't exists or it is as you think it is.

That's the only thing commendable.

:-D

QuoteSo you now want to tell me who Butler was? And just so you know that "method" was not created by Butler but he surely was the first to explain the "full" method (also if in a basic form only understandable by people already knowing it) in one of his books. He was a member of SOL, that was a branch born from Golden Dawn members.

Where did you see me say that it was created by Butler? And this is why you need to do some revision of what you claim to have read. By the way, why don't you enlighten everyone with you amazing Body of Light method? LOL!

To be fair, Selea is speaking from his own perspective.  He's allowed his opinions, just as you're allowed yours.  :)

It would be nice if we could just debate ideas and not people. 

Yes, he is allowed his own opinions but he has no right to slate that which is a given, especially when it comes to techniques. Selea also said:

QuoteA) you can do it whenever you want when you have mastered it, B) you have full consciousness as in "normal" life, C) you have a controlled vehicle that you can use to do specific things and that it has many more advantages in the control when you are "outside", E) the "vehicle" acquires a sort of "life" of his own, and it can be used to do many more things than simply using it as a container for you consciousness.

A) Baloney! No-one can do this. Whoever says they can is simply lying.
B) Sometimes even in "normal life" you are not fully conscious or even fully aware of what is going on around you. In fact, the unconscious (or subconscious - hate this word as it is misleading) captures a lot more.
C) I don't waste time building any thought body - when I separate, it may be already manifest or it manifests as I simply look to find it. If I don't have a body and I'm a floating point of consciousness, it doesn't even bother me - you don't really need one as it merely manifests because that is what you are used to during the waking state.
And finally D (not E, Selea :-D) Yeah, a thought form that you can control with your mind...a do this for fun in lucid dreams. It is only a vehicle if you label it a vehicle. You can view it in second person and make it say "hi" :roll:

Actually he can, and apparently does.

However, you are completely allowed to disagree with him.  ;)
Which apparently you are doing.  LoL

The particular passage of Selea's post to myself which you are quoting doesn't quite make the assertions that you claim it does though.
That passage is simply Selea's opinion on what his believed advantages of his particular way of thinking is.  I'm fine with that. 

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 13:23:11
A) Baloney! No-one can do this. Whoever says they can is simply lying.

So you're claiming that whatever you can't understand and/or experience is impossible? That's an egoistical/naive claim, wouldn't you agree? Following that same line of thinking, we can then assume that if one scientist can't discover a cure for 'X' disease, then no other scientist can? pffft...

Hell, even you're hero Thomas Campbell claims that he has reached such a high point of proficiency with mantra meditation that he can phase at will. Are you going to call him a flat-out a liar as well? Or will you simply put your ego aside and consider the possibility that there are things that are still beyond your ability to grasp?

Oversoul123, firstly, he is not "my hero" and secondly, I am still currently reading his Big theory. so far so good, he's got a good view of reality. Thirdly, he does not phase at will. He needs mantra, meditation etc. etc.

The conditions have to be right. He does not phase while he's walking. It's not a matter of not understanding or not being able to do it. It's impossible. Period. One might as well call daydreaming phasing in which an individual is not fully focused there. To enter the Phase, it is required preparation and it takes time. You can't just will it and it happens in that same moment. It's common sense. Take some exogenous DMT and you might have an OOBE without the prep. Other than that, no. 100% no. Maybe in a million years when our brains have evolved a bit more...

Quote from: Xanth on June 24, 2011, 13:39:24
Actually he can, and apparently does.

However, you are completely allowed to disagree with him.  ;)
Which apparently you are doing.  LoL

The particular passage of Selea's post to myself which you are quoting doesn't quite make the assertions that you claim it does though.
That passage is simply Selea's opinion on what his believed advantages of his particular way of thinking is.  I'm fine with that.  

Note how Selea words his beliefs. He states them as facts. And so far I have not seen him describe how he projects at will.

Anyway, what Selea proposes I've already posted in a different forum. Butler used the same method. I'm gonna let people believe what they want here but I guarantee you that no-one projects at will. As Rudy said, it's the holy grail of OOBErs but I'd like to rephrase it...it would be the holy grail of OOBErs.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 17:20:04
Oversoul123, firstly, he is not "my hero"

Fair enough...  :evil:

QuoteI am still currently reading his Big theory. so far so good

It's a very good book.

QuoteThirdly, he does not phase at will. He needs mantra, meditation etc. etc.

Let me clarify something first, the purpose of the mantra is simply to silence the mental thoughts, once that is achieved, the meditator lets go of the mantra and slips into an emptiness-of-mind meditation. So once the meditator reaches a high point of proficiency with the emptiness-of-mind meditation, the mantra is ditched for all the following attempts at phasing. So, to put it simply, Mr. Campbell has reached a point in which, at any time during the night/day, he closes his eyes, let's go of the physical, slips into the void, and reaches the phase without a mantra or a pre-nap.

So my question is this, how is he not phasing at will? Isn't phasing a meditation in and on itself?  When someone asks, "Can you project at will?" they mean, can you project at anytime during the day/night within reason, not whilst walking, swimming, or taking a dump. So I'm confused, what exactly do you mean by 'phasing at will'.

QuoteTake some exogenous DMT and you might have an OOBE without the prep.

Whenever I take DMT, I get a natural urge to close my eyes, once this happens, voila. I'm in the phase. It's as if the DMT triggers an involuntary meditation and launches me into 'outer space'. At least, that's how I perceive it.

QuoteMr. Campbell has reached a point in which, at any time during the night/day, he closes his eyes, let's go of the physical, slips into the void, and reaches the phase without a mantra or a pre-nap.

He also claims to be able to shift awareness at will, within a few seconds, and then be able to see auras.

I don't know if that constitutes a phase shift but that has to be some seriously reduced entropy state!  :wink:

Quote from: Rudolph on June 24, 2011, 20:24:15
He also claims to be able to shift awareness at will, within a few seconds, and then be able to see auras.

That's right! It's been a while since I've read his book. If I recall correctly, he also theorized that it was possible to physically teleport your body to any address in the known universe/dimensions.  Not only that, but claimed that it was also possible to materialize objects from the NPMR to the PMR.  If I understood correctly, in order to do this you had to learn the 'source code' in NPMR and reduce your entropy to accomplish this.  It's mind blowing stuff!  :-o

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
"Taught"...also, it's called being "pragmatic". He is not claiming that things don't exist...he is merely focusing on what is a given and what's relevant. Get a dictionary.

And tell me, how can you decide before what's relevant and what's not? I'm curious to know.

By pretending a thing is relevant and another is not? By thinking a thing is relevant and another not? I'm sorry to say it to you but that's a "method" that brings only to self-delusion.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
You have clearly never tried the pre-nap method and probably haven't ever projected at all because if you had, you'd know that with the pre-nap/sleep (or wake back to bed) method, you don't necessarily experience lapses in consciousness.

The lapse is ALWAYS there. Noticing it or not noticing it it doens't really matter. It is a staple of using sleep methods. If you did know how to do "exit" voluntarily then you would have enough control to always notice the lapse. In your condition, you cannot.

What you call "mind alert" is just your recollection of it but the lapse it's always there.

Btw, many authors very experienced in sleep methods have talked about this "lapse" and that's always there, but I suppose you know better than all of them, isn't it?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
You seriously need to try the nap method! Try it! The energy work is a waste of time. There are so many people practising it and most still don't know what they are doing. In my opinion, the scam is as clear as daylight. I asked you to point out the pseudo-science from Raduga and so far you haven't.

I've done both methods from a lot of time already. I never speak about things I don't know first hand and I always research EVERYTHING (especially things I don't like or I think they are "bogus" at first), differently from you. I know the differences in both ways, while you don't, and you tell me I should try something?

(Then if I didn't know nothing about it how could I know that you act in "automatic" when using sleep methods? This is a thing that's neither mentioned usually in books  - differently from the "sometimes lapse sometimes not". Isn't it strange that you take as evidence only some things that for your they would "prove" that I know nothing about it, when then you discard completely others that clearly demonstrates the contrary? Using the well known method of "pointing out only what is good to your cause, discarding all the rest", are you?)

All I see is that you have no intention of having an open mind and instead you continue insisting that this or that is "hocus-pocus" without never having ever tried it once and without either minimally care to experience if that's so or not. How do you call this? I call it being full of it, as you are.

As for Raduga I already told you that he doesn't either know fully of what he talks about (as you), what do you want more?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
You need to do some serious research on sleep cycles and it is possible to do it before sleep (you will also find this in the book - do read it because I don't think you have - and if you have...well, you misunderstood its content.

What part of "YOU NEED *SLEEP* ANWYAY" you didn't get in my last message? Wasn't difficult to get. But I see you completely sidestepped all my examples. Good strategy, but it doesn't work.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
The truth is that, once you enter the Phase and you believe that the playing with the "energy" has helped you, than that is exactly what you manifest. It isn't the energy or the vibes. It is your BELIEF and EXPECTATION that delivers results.

And you know this from personal experience, isn't it?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34You come here pointing fingers and saying that many have no control in their experiences but so far you have shown me that you know very little (reminder: especially about what happens in the pre-sleep method). By the way, the people who enter the Phase while walking...you just believe them? :roll:

I didn't "believe" them, I've never believed nobody just because I had to. I've seem them doing it, they have been my "masters" somewhat 23 years ago.

Do you know what's the difference between you and me? The difference is only one of intent, as I already declared. I'm not interested in what is "right" or "wrong". I'm just interested on what works and what it doesn't and the only way to find out, seriously, is trying all the things by yourself, no matter what they are and what you think about them.

You instead are more interested on what you think you know, but the problem is that you know only what you care to know (and so only a part, and, in the end, just for this, nothing) and yet you think you are a master.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
Here we go with the voluntary again...do yourself a favour and get a dictionary! :lol:

Now you are resorting to personal insults, I see. English is not my native language as I thought it was obvious.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
LOL! You make me laugh. If you think he's so bad why did you bother to read the whole book? You did read it all, didn't you?

Would you please stop with this "LOL". Are you a child? Can we have an adult conversation without you here getting all owned by your emotions?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
That's why many people are projecting because of him and they claim to have developed a greater control than before - after following Raduga's advice. :roll:

Can you please me quote me writing that the methods of Raduga (and btw, they are not HIS methods) don't work? I just said that they only pertain to using sleep.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
Actually, this is incorrect. I can testify that you come out fully conscious when you apply this method. Partially conscious may occur but most of the time, you are fully conscious and focused on that reality.

So you tell me that you can decide beforehand to do a certain thing and you will do exactly the same thing after, not being carried aways by "impulse". Good to know, you must be the only one capable of doing so using sleep methods.

Pretending a thing is in a way without nothing else to compare it upon is not the smartest point of start.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
Also, I've used this method to visit people and I've got some good results. Talk about having no control, eh?

Have you some problem of comprehension, pherhaps? What this have to do at all with control is beyond me, really.

Control is:

A) Capacity of deciding where to go BEFORE the experience begins.
B) Capacity of deciding what to do BEFORE the experience begins and carry up the plan after (and modify it "on the fly" depending on what happens, without "being carried" away and finding yourself doing a completely different thing if you so not decide to) as it can happen in "normal" life.
C) Capactiy of having full critical faculty as in "normal" life (this is tied to B). Full critical facutly means having full decision on what to do next if you so desire.

What you did is just a banal experience (in the sense that's it has no real practical value outside its own scope) everyone can have (and everybody having done these things have), what's so good about it? And more you either come here with your "proofs" to let me supposedly see how good you are, as if I would care. These things are good to impress your friends but do you seriously think they matter something?

To everybody his/her own ambitions, I guess.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
Actually, what I meant by "same result" is that it is all the Phase, the same phenomenon. Not what you experience. what you experience is subjective and majorly dependent on your beliefs and where you mind is at. But I understand...you are looking for ways to discredit me and you feel that I've threatened your belief foundation. I understand... :-D

It's not the same thing. There are many differences. Not all "planes" have ego as the starting point.

I don't feel threatened at all by what you say, I'm just sad that you are so sure of everything without either having tried to go beyond what you think is "correct" or it isn't.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
I never said it was a phasing method...I said it is LIKE that. Read properly and stop making assumptions.

If you say that it's like a phasing method then it means that it has the same "structure", the same application on the way it works. Fact is that, on the contrary, it is completely different in structure and on how it works, they are not either minimally comparable. And then, please, stop to act smart, want you? I know exactly the way you "see" the method because you have only a certain structure to compare it to and so necessarily you try to put it in that perspective (and for this you don't understand how it works and you call some things unnecessary), and that structure is phasing.

You know nothing about how the technique works. You know absolutely nothing about it and you have either the presumption of wanting to tell what's necessary or unnecessary in the technique.

From where it comes all this pretending you know something about things you know nothing about? Have you ever tried researching on that method seriously to see if maybe some of the things are different than you supposed they were and then try them yourself if they were so or not? Have you ever tried to test if maybe what you thought "unnecessary" was maybe not so instead of pretending to know everything about it already because you think you obviously know "better"? I think there's neither need for you to answer that, isn't it?

But it's neither your fault. You ask me why I don't like authors as Raduga. You have the answer right here, right there.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 12:45:34
Where did you see me say that it was created by Butler? And this is why you need to do some revision of what you claim to have read. By the way, why don't you enlighten everyone with you amazing Body of Light method? LOL!

I already have, read my post on Xanth.

Can you please stop now with personal insults and behave without being transported by emotions so that we can have a meaningful debate? Thank you.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 13:23:11
A) Baloney! No-one can do this. Whoever says they can is simply lying.

If you say so...

You can think whatever you want but let me ask you this. What if you would be mistaken? Have you ever asked yourself this. Are you so sure you know everything about the issue to know already what's "true" and what's not therein?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 13:23:11
B) Sometimes even in "normal life" you are not fully conscious or even fully aware of what is going on around you. In fact, the unconscious (or subconscious - hate this word as it is misleading) captures a lot more.

That's another thing, don't change topic. When you are not "fully" conscious in "normal" life is because you are not putting your full attention on what you are doing. That's a completely different thing.

If you use a sleep method you cannot decide a priori what it will happen after. Your body will "take control" and you will go on from there. Your impulse of the moment is what will guide you. You miss what it is called the "critical faculty", that's a part of the superconscious.

There's no decision on your part about this. In "normal" life you can either go in "automatic" but if you want you can take full control and behave with full critical faculty. Using sleep methods "outside" the body you cannot, you are always in "automatic" and there's no way outside of it.

There are people that "think" they have control even when "outside" using sleep methods but what they think it is "control" is just a motivation setted before. For example if you think intensely about doing this or that it is probable that your body will carry out the thing by itself (and this, in fact, it is a method to "control" the experience with a sleep method). This is what happens also by taking potent drugs that do the same things and how Shamans for example set their "voyages" before. However the difference is that this "intention" is only a sort of order carried upon, but it's not the same as having full control the moment things happens, and since you cannot know in anticipation what it will happen before how can you setup an intent that will carry depending on what happens?

Naturally this lack of "control" is, at the same time, one of the motives that either if you know how to exit voluntarily sleep methods are always good and necessary nonetheless. You can understand a lot about your "fears", "desires" etc. and how they change depending on what you do from using this "automatism".

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 13:23:11
C) I don't waste time building any thought body - when I separate, it may be already manifest or it manifests as I simply look to find it. If I don't have a body and I'm a floating point of consciousness, it doesn't even bother me - you don't really need one as it merely manifests because that is what you are used to during the waking state.

The "body" or "vehicle" is created for a motive. You don't know of what you are talking about.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 24, 2011, 13:23:11
And finally D (not E, Selea :-D) Yeah, a thought form that you can control with your mind...a do this for fun in lucid dreams. It is only a vehicle if you label it a vehicle. You can view it in second person and make it say "hi" :roll:

Again, it's another thing. The "vehicle" you create is NOT your "astral body". What would be the reason on putting the most effort on creating a "body" (since it requires months of work before the "body" is created fully) that it already exists? What you say makes no sense at all, neither on reasoning parameters. The method is not to be done in a single session, at all.

Why don't you stop pretending of being an expert on things you obviously know NOTHING about? If you would be a little more honest both with yourself and others we could have a better discussion.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 24, 2011, 10:35:55
My question was about whether you have an effective method for teaching this ability to project at will. Your reply did not answer that question.

????

I told you that there are methods, want to read my message again? I also told you that there is not a *specific* technique to do it. It is not a matter of doing a thing only. It requires training on various things.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 24, 2011, 10:35:55
If I ask, "Do you know the way to San Jose?" a good answer would be either yes or no. To reply, "point that way and start walking" is not helpful at that stage of the game. First things first. What if it takes two weeks to get there on foot and I only have 2 days?

A) I alredy replied "yes" to you.
B) If you ask me the better way how to go to "San Jose" I could tell you that it's better to take a bus than to go walking.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 24, 2011, 10:35:55
But.. since you mention it... just curious, which "Middle Pillar" method are you referring to? And if I start learning Raja Yoga how long will it take and how will I know when I have "learned" it?

The Middle Pillar is a method that treats chakras in a specific ways done appositedly for projection. When you will have mastered it you will be able to control at will the "light" formulated by using it.

Raja Yoga is, in little words, learning how to concentrate fully on an object without your attention never faltering. The amount of time it takes it depends on the amount of work you put upon it. Normally, with 2-4 hours a day? More or less two years (if you are using it only as a way to have a willing projection, as many occidental schools do, otherwise your entire life). Naturally it depends but in general good results starts to happen after this period. There are people that can do it either in less than six months but they are exceptions and anyway the "time" doesn't really matter if you are serious about it.

Where did I claim to know it all and of being a "master"...this is all coming from you, not me. I'm the first one to say that the Phase is elusive. As I've said to you before, you are deluding yourself with Chakras and energy work. Just because you feel the sensations (the mind has the power to create anything) does not mean that chakras and the energy system you speak of exist.

This is the difference between me and you. You claim that things exist without proof. I don't claim to know about the existence of anything. As for higher and lower realms...pfft...higher and lower are individual perceptions. For me it all happens in the same realm. Pleasantries and unpleasantries happen in the realm of thoughts during the Phase.

There is also a major misconception when it comes to Campbell being expressed here. His trilogy is his interpretation. It's a Big TOE - and the "T" stands for "THEORY"...that's right...theory. There is no evidence that you experience other realities whatsoever! The Many Worlds interpretation of in quantum theory is not yet proven. It could all be in people's heads still.

Even I don't claim that my visits to the people in Astral Viewers really did take place despite the fact that they were shocked at the apparent accuracies. Read things properly Selea and you will find that unlike you, I never claim to know anything for sure. Go back to my pervious posts and notice how they've been worded. You will find words like "apparently" for example. I never dismiss other venues as possible explanations - like coincidences or cryptomnesia, for example - so...where you claimed that I said I have proof...LOL...I don't know where you got that from.

I'm gonna be brief here now. I have come across many like you and I know exactly how you operate. Let me give you a piece of advice as this is what I do...question everything, my friend. Even what you think is the truth but have no real proof of it. Have you ever thought that what you have read might be wrong or that it is only someone else's opinion? Just because someone's got a book out there doesn't mean they are right.

I'll tell you what made me project: finding Robert Monroe's method in a book called Mind Games. It was only explained briefly and that is all it took. I was curious and after trying, it yielded results. I didn't need to read loads of books claiming that one must read the next issue and go on a course to be able to do it. I did not need this chakra and energy work business. You don't need it. That's the truth and I am living proof of it.

I have also tried to induce with and without the pre-nap/sleep. With the pre-sleep, it is easier because it primes you phisiologically for the induction. This is fact. Without the pre-sleep, it is harder but I have done it and I guarantee you that, despite the experience being different every time regardless of how you enter it, it is still the Phase state. Nothing else. It is like taking the same amount of the same hallucinogenic under the same conditions twice and both times the experience will differ. Why, because it all depends on where your mind is at. As I said before, and I feel like I am repeating myself here, the experience is subjective and open to an array of interpretations. You seem to refer to Campbell a lot but you also forget that he says that it is all "data". Data is not the same as information. Notice the analogy. If you see a light being singing melodiously to you, you may say that it's an angel - someone else may say it's just a figment of the imagination, or a demon in disguise, or an archetypal part of the personality that bears some symbolism.

You wanted to have a proper debate? Well, there you go...but you must be prepared to question what you believe in. Consider other angles. 8-)

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
Where did I claim to know it all and of being a "master"...this is all coming from you, not me. I'm the first one to say that the Phase is elusive. As I've said to you before, you are deluding yourself with Chakras and energy work. Just because you feel the sensations (the mind has the power to create anything) does not mean that chakras and the energy system you speak of exist.

You say you never insisted you are a "master" but you then insist a thing exist or not without either having researched on it or having tried it yourself.

I'm sorry but there's a great gap in the way you write about yourself and the way you behave.

If you act as if you did know everything already what good it does continuing insist that you know "nothing"? At last be sincere and say openly that you think you know everything already because this is how you act.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
This is the difference between me and you. You claim that things exist without proof.

???

Of the series: "turning around the thing". I have always mentioned things that I know from personal experience. I have always insisted on researching on everything, also what you don't think it is "right" or what you think it is "bogus".

You instead insist that some things are "hocus-pocus" and they don't exist and yet when asked if you have researched on them you obviously say you don't care because they don't obviously exist for how you see it. Where's the "proof" you talk about here? I see only someone that thinks that he already knows that some things are right and some things are wrong, that some things exists while some are obviously just "illusion" just because you say so.

And an important thing is this: it doesn't matter if a thing is an illusion or not. The thing that matters is "can this illusion serve me for what I want to do"?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
I don't claim to know about the existence of anything. As for higher and lower realms...pfft...higher and lower are individual perceptions. For me it all happens in the same realm. Pleasantries and unpleasantries happen in the realm of thoughts during the Phase.

Again, all of this naturally coming because you actually researched on what you are talking about and not just because you want to think they are this way, I see.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
There is also a major misconception when it comes to Campbell being expressed here. His trilogy is his interpretation. It's a Big TOE - and the "T" stands for "THEORY"...that's right...theory. There is no evidence that you experience other realities whatsoever! The Many Worlds interpretation of in quantum theory is not yet proven. It could all be in people's heads still.

Campbell has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Put him aside. I'm not interested on debating others' concepts, true or not.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52Read things properly Selea and you will find that unlike you, I never claim to know anything for sure. Go back to my pervious posts and notice how they've been worded. You will find words like "apparently" for example. I never dismiss other venues as possible explanations - like coincidences or cryptomnesia, for example - so...where you claimed that I said I have proof...LOL...I don't know where you got that from.

Are you serious? All you have written till now is just your interpretation a priori of what things are. You never cared to research on them. You just insist things you don't think exists are jut "hocus-pocus" and "garbage".

Really it seems to me that you have truly some problem on what you think is the way your behave from how you really behave. You should read your messages again because I don't see any openess in them about things that for you don't exists.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
I'm gonna be brief here now. I have come across many like you and I know exactly how you operate. Let me give you a piece of advice as this is what I do...question everything, my friend. Even what you think is the truth but have no real proof of it. Have you ever thought that what you have read might be wrong or that it is only someone else's opinion? Just because someone's got a book out there doesn't mean they are right.

Again, are you serious? You are actually trying to tell me that now you are advicing me on to "test everything" when you are the first not doing it and pretending you know what's "hocus-pocus" and what's not? OMG, seriously, guy, you should check a little what you are saying because you are looking ridicolous, I'm not joking.

I already told you I always tried EVERYTHING by myself, differently from you. It's evident in all I written to you. I've insisted that maybe things are not exactly as you see they are, I've always gave you an option, a thing you have never done, and now you want to seriously turn all around and insist you are the one checking everything?

Well, if that's what you like to do, be my guest.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
I did not need this chakra and energy work business. You don't need it. That's the truth and I am living proof of it.

And here it ends the fable again of "I check everything".

The fact that you think you "don't need it" it doesn't mean that truly they serves nothing. If one day you will start checking everything instead of pretending you are doing it then maybe you will find out that, as I explained, to have the control you need some of the things you call "hocus-pocus". You aren't interested in control right now but more on having experiences and for this you don't need these things. If one day you will begin to wonder "why I cannot do this or that" and start researching on it maybe you will understand that what you consider "hocus-pocus" or "unnedeed" can make a difference.

If then you discover otherwise good the same. At last you will have tried yourself instead of pretending you know that already.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
I have also tried to induce with and without the pre-nap/sleep. With the pre-sleep, it is easier because it primes you phisiologically for the induction. This is fact. Without the pre-sleep, it is harder but I have done it and I guarantee you that, despite the experience being different every time regardless of how you enter it, it is still the Phase state.

You really don't get it, isn't it? Pre-sleep of after sleep the methods you use REQUIRE your body to go to sleep anyway. It doesn't change anything at all. What changes is only the way you employ sleep, not the fact that you need it as a "catapult" to have the experience.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
Nothing else. It is like taking the same amount of the same hallucinogenic under the same conditions twice and both times the experience will differ.

A shame that shamans tell otherwise. Maria Sabina for example always did go in the same place when taking psylocibe mushrooms. Don't mistake what usual people can do to what *all" people can do.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52
Why, because it all depends on where your mind is at. As I said before, and I feel like I am repeating myself here, the experience is subjective and open to an array of interpretations. You seem to refer to Campbell a lot but you also forget that he says that it is all "data".

Campbell? I have referenced Campbell? Where?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52Data is not the same as information. Notice the analogy. If you see a light being singing melodiously to you, you may say that it's an angel - someone else may say it's just a figment of the imagination, or a demon in disguise, or an archetypal part of the personality that bears some symbolism.

I already told you I'm not interested on what a thing "is". I don't care at all if an angel is a light for you and an "angel" for me. What matters, the only thing that matters, it is that doing certain things certain things happens. What they "really" are doesn't interest me in the slightest.

They interest only people that like to debate in theories on what it is so and what it isn't without never doing anything and losing themselves in things that have no importance at all.

What difference it makes if the sun is only a planet or Tatewarì? The only difference is that the one not caring can see both, the one caring can see none.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 09:12:52You wanted to have a proper debate? Well, there you go...but you must be prepared to question what you believe in. Consider other angles. 8-)

I believe nothing as I believe everything, depending on what part of the "trip" I am in.

Selea, I think you are being tricked, so listen...

Perhaps things come into a different light if I say that Summerlander
has been banned from another forum, where he was a Moderator.

My impression is that Summerlander got banned because he wrote
degrading and belittling posts to various users on so many occasions
the there was no other option for the remaining moderators in question.

So don't stretch yourself too far and get into trouble, because you
can probably guess who will cheer.

QuoteA) I alredy replied "yes" to you.
B) If you ask me the better way how to go to "San Jose" I could tell you that it's better to take a bus than to go walking.

A) No, you didn't. I explained that very clearly.
B) I did not ask you about a 'better" way. I asked if you if you had an "effective" method.

Selea, I think you underestimate the knowledge and ability of many of the contributors here. When you say "The Middle Pillar is a method that treats chakras in a specific ways done appositedly for projection. When you will have mastered it you will be able to control at will the "light" formulated by using it" -- it sounds like you are caught in your own little world of SeleaThink and you can't get out long enough to simply grasp what others around you are really saying and asking.

I asked you about your "method" of Middle Pillar because I am aware of about a half dozen significantly different variations on the central them which you lightly touched on.

I am trying to get very specific and you keep returning to generalities (which makes it look like you really don't know what you are talking about).

As I've said, if you really do have applied knowledge that arrives at a specific result, I am all ears.

So... Raja yoga can require six months or a lifetime... or something inbetween, heh. Not real helpful. I know one school in India where they teach that if you follow their system of Yoga for Four Lifetimes the devotee will attain Liberation from the Wheel.
:lol:  :lol:

No thanks.

Selea,

You have failed Rudolph too. :-D

As for Pauli2, well...there is always two sides of the story and in his statement you will find that he doesn't even know what the altercation in Viewers was about. He is also sore because I told him on several occasions to stop believing everything he reads.

Your last post has just shown me that you are clearly not interested in having an intellectual debate, but rather, more focused on contradicting me at all costs. You need to realise that if you continue like that, people will lose interest in anything you have to say.

By the way, go on Viewers and you will find two threads called "Where's Summerlander gone" and "I miss Summerlander", I have my sources and evidently there are people who think I was wronged...go there...check! :-D

And quit saying "are you serious" - it's getting tedious now. No, I'm not serious...I'm doubly serious. I have no interest in going down your road because I don't need it. I can do things in the Phase state by simply believing I can or via expectation. That is all one needs, really. As for going to the same places...you completely missed the point. The woman you use as reference can go to the same places as anyone can...as I said before...it also depends on where your mind is at. You have a thing for aliens then you are likely to see/visit alien worlds. You have a thing about deities then you are likely to experience this. If you have stray thoughts in the Phase, then you are likely to land in random places. If you have focused intent, then you will get where you want to be (particularly when it comes to visits). It is all mind, selea. If the belief in energy systems that you believe in helps you, then by all means use it - perhaps that is what you got used to - but don't start saying to others that they are incapable of this and that if they don't do as you do because that is completely inaccurate.

Here's a few sayings, which funnily enough are found in the Big TOE, and may serve as a basis for deeper thought:

"Whatever one believes to be true either is true or becomes true in one's mind."
- John C. Lilly

"When we argue for our limitations, we get to keep them."
- Peter McWilliams

"If you don't change your beliefs, your life will be like this forever. Is that good news?"
- Dr. Robert Anthony

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51
As for Pauli2, well ... he doesn't even know what the altercation in Viewers was about.

From the AstralViewers forum:

"I just banned Summerlander guys, I'm sorry but he has just become too much. If anyone still thinks he didn't deserve it I remind you that that there and more then four good, active members who have left because of his attitude. I can't keep him around if all he does it fight with everyone. Maybe he can eventually come back but for now he can't."


Wow...

All he does is fight with everyone...

Quote from: Pauli2 on June 25, 2011, 14:00:23
From the AstralViewers forum:

"I just banned Summerlander guys, I'm sorry but he has just become too much. If anyone still thinks he didn't deserve it I remind you that that there and more then four good, active members who have left because of his attitude. I can't keep him around if all he does it fight with everyone. Maybe he can eventually come back but for now he can't."


Wow...

All he does is fight with everyone...

And that doesn't help, Pauli.  What do you think you're doing by posting that here?
Let's keep the Astral Viewers stuff on Astral Viewers and not bring it up over here please.
As far as I'm concerned he's got a clean slate over here.

EDIT:  I'd like to mention that this goes for everyone.  Please don't bring up issues or problems from another forum here, especially not as a means of discrediting or supporting your case.  Thank you.  :)

****************************************

With that said, we have a discussion going on here, which I would like to see become a bit more civil... please, let's discuss IDEAS not PEOPLE.

Remember that whatever is said, regardless of HOW it's said, is only that person's opinion... and further to that, we seem to have people here who seem to be emotionally distraught at the idea that "THEY MIGHT BE WRONG!"  UH OH!

I'll make this one passionate plea... if you feel that you've never been wrong in your life, or if you have issues with "being wrong", I highly suggest you delete your account now because fact of the matter is nobody can possibly be "CORRECT" in a discussion of this nature.

So please, let's tone this back a bit and not get personal.  Discuss IDEAS not PEOPLE.

Quote from: Pauli2 on June 25, 2011, 14:00:23
From the AstralViewers forum:

"I just banned Summerlander guys, I'm sorry but he has just become too much. If anyone still thinks he didn't deserve it I remind you that that there and more then four good, active members who have left because of his attitude. I can't keep him around if all he does it fight with everyone. Maybe he can eventually come back but for now he can't."


Wow...

All he does is fight with everyone...

I tend you avoid answering him, after reading a few of his posts here. He is generally too defensive of his opinions and it seems he is more interested in showing how smart and knowledgeable he is compared to others. His energies are sometime unbearable. Too brute. Almost every thread he posts into turns negative.

This forum is too precious to leave just because of one person. I request you all to show compassion towards such people and forgive them. Please stay here and share your knowledge, however diverse and non-traditional or crazy it may sound, its all good if it makes you a better person.

Peace :)

On topic:

The concept of (mental) 'energy' was invented so that you could work easily within your mental realm. Its more of a technical term than a thing, just like a 'thought', its not a thing but a process in your mind, but is  very 'real' in a sense. You can study the energy and you will come to a conclusion that its perception can be very real once you develop sensitivity towards it.

Unfortunately, the word energy clashes directly with the physical energy (=that which does physical work), and causes a conflict of beliefs. In physics also it is a concept. A very useful and convenient one. To avoid the conflict I generally use the term Prana. Again some people might think that its old-fashioned or new-agey thing. Its the only option available.

It's not useful to ask whether its real or not (you will run into a debate at most instead of truth), more useful question is - how can I benefit from it ?

Well, I don't guarantee that you will. But like many other things in the world of psyche, you must try it to know it. Experience is everything here. No amount of book reading will make you wise. So go ahead and act on his suggestion (IAC fellow) and see what happens.

Don't forget to update us all. All the best :)

I agree with that statement in that it is more of a process in your mind rather than a thing and if it works for some, then good. I personally feel that I am doing great without it. Now that I agree with you, am I forgiven? :-D

ps. I really do agree with the statement, by the way!

Quote from: Psan on June 25, 2011, 14:47:22
I tend you avoid answering him, after reading a few of his posts here. He is generally too defensive of his opinions and it seems he is more interested in showing how smart and knowledgeable he is compared to others. His energies are sometime unbearable. Too brute. Almost every thread he posts into turns negative.

This forum is too precious to leave just because of one person. I request you all to show compassion towards such people and forgive them. Please stay here and share your knowledge, however diverse and non-traditional or crazy it may sound, its all good if it makes you a better person.

Peace :)

And to that end, I also highly advise that if you're reading a post and it seems to "disagree" with you... please do make use of the "Report to Moderator" functionality, and we'll try to deal with it best we can.  :)

And definitely as Psan has suggested, if certain people "get your goat", please try your best to not interact with them.  I realize that sometimes it's hard to do that, but it's in the best interest of all involved.  :)

And one last thing... it's okay to disagree with people regarding a particular subject or idea, BUT try to keep your disagreement in a positive manner.

Summerlander, I don't know what part of your text was directed at me, exactly, but if you're alluding that I take any of Campbell's theories as fact then you must be hallucinating. I simply stated some of his 'mind-boggling' claims.  First of all, I don't believe in anything.  All I know is that I am self-aware, that's it, capice?.  Regarding Campbell, I like the pragmatic, data-testing, approach that he brings in respect to phasing. That is all. The rest, I'll have to experience it myself.

Here's an interesting study; A team of researchers led by the Massachusetts General Hospital found that participating in an 8-week mindfulness meditation program appeared to make measureable changes in the grey-matter density in the hippocampus of the brain (known to be important for learning and memory), and in structures associated with self-awareness, compassion and introspection. Decreased grey-matter density in the amygdala (known to play an important role in anxiety and stress) was also reported.

Source:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121144007.htm

Now, if you don't consider the possibility that meditation can 're-engineer' the brain into a state in which, somehow, it might be possible to phase at will, then...  I don't know what to tell you. Maybe heed your own advice? The human brain is still, for the most part, unknown; so we don't know anything for sure.  Note, I'm not claiming that this is the reason why Mr. Campbell can phase at will; I'm just throwing it out there.  Food for thought...

Tom is very capable because of the time and effort he's put into studying altered states of consciousness over his many years since working with Monroe in his laboratories.  I have no doubt in my mind that he does what he claims he does. 

As for your previous post, Oversoul, it was well said.  :)

Don't "believe" anything anyone ever says to you.  As Tom would put it, simply keep an open mind about it, but don't judge it "correct" or "incorrect" until you have personal experience to back it up.  And in the end, you can only prove things to yourself... not to anyone else.

Quote from: Oversoul123 on June 25, 2011, 18:11:03
Summerlander, I don't know what part of your text was directed at me, exactly, but if you're alluding that I take any of Campbell's theories as fact then you must be hallucinating. I simply stated some of his 'mind-boggling' claims.  First of all, I don't believe in anything.  All I know is that I am self-aware, that's it, capice?.  Regarding Campbell, I like the pragmatic, data-testing, approach that he brings in respect to phasing. That is all. The rest, I'll have to experience it myself.

Here's an interesting study; A team of researchers led by the Massachusetts General Hospital found that participating in an 8-week mindfulness meditation program appeared to make measureable changes in the grey-matter density in the hippocampus of the brain (known to be important for learning and memory), and in structures associated with self-awareness, compassion and introspection. Decreased grey-matter density in the amygdala (known to play an important role in anxiety and stress) was also reported.

Source:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121144007.htm

Now, if you don't consider the possibility that meditation can 're-engineer' the brain into a state in which, somehow, it might be possible to phase at will, then...  I don't know what to tell you. Maybe heed your own advice? The human brain is still, for the most part, unknown; so we don't know anything for sure.  Note, I'm not claiming that this is the reason why Mr. Campbell can phase at will; I'm just throwing it out there.  Food for thought...

That is very interesting. Actually, this agrees with what I have said in previous posts in other threads here. The brain is a tool which is slowly improved by consciousness. Check my guide that has been made stick and you will find something along these lines too. I personally think, from experience that the Phase can turn telepathic and precognitive. On a larger evolutionary scale, the brain is being improved to best express the potentiality of consciousness.

I believe that people can project at will, but this projecting at will thing requires a little effort (that's how I do it - I once projected in less than two minutes from employing my method and I don't call that "projecting at will"). People can't just think "I want out now" and suddenly they have entered the Phase in the blink of an eye. Selea said he knows people that project while they are walking. I disagree with this. It may be possible in the distant future, but not yet, in my mind. Unless, of course, there are some peculiar brains out there that enable an individual to Phase at will. Otherwise, they have really familiarised themselves with the whole process and they have become exceptionally adroit at it. Anyway, and this is more to Selea, you don't necessarily need the body of Light thing to achieve this.

I'm not saying it's impossible but I find it dubious. I am also wary when it comes to believing what is published by these authors and what they claim (which could be gimmicks to attract wider audiences). a lot of what Campbell says resonates with me. A lot of Kepple's ideas also ring a bell and resonate with my experiences. But we must be careful about what we find out there. Many people also believe carrots preserve your vision and you never have to wear glasses...this is, of course, a myth.

Thanks for sharing that, by the way. It was really good and seems to support that which I have been thinking for some time now. Also, I was not referring to you personally with my comments and I apologise if it came across to you that way.

Quote from: Xanth on June 25, 2011, 18:16:13
Don't "believe" anything anyone ever says to you.  As Tom would put it, simply keep an open mind about it, but don't judge it "correct" or "incorrect" until you have personal experience to back it up.

Good advice, especially when dealing with the metaphysical realm.

Xanth, I agree 100%.

Summerlander, fair enough, we probably had some misunderstings, that's all.  Oh, and Tom didn't make any claims, they are his theories, my bad; and I agree, we should analyze our own experiences ourselves, and reach our own conclusions pragmatically.  So no worries, it's all good.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 25, 2011, 11:31:06
A) No, you didn't. I explained that very clearly.

The "fact" that you think you explained it clearly it doesn't mean that it happened. I told you that it is possible to do and I told you the way on how to begin doing it.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 25, 2011, 11:31:06
B) I did not ask you about a 'better" way. I asked if you if you had an "effective" method.

And I replied you that it's not a thing pertaining to only a *specific* method. You have to train different aspects.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 25, 2011, 11:31:06
Selea, I think you underestimate the knowledge and ability of many of the contributors here. When you say "The Middle Pillar is a method that treats chakras in a specific ways done appositedly for projection. When you will have mastered it you will be able to control at will the "light" formulated by using it" -- it sounds like you are caught in your own little world of SeleaThink and you can't get out long enough to simply grasp what others around you are really saying and asking.

I told you what happens if you want to try. You asked me how to do it and I replied, but now you don't care not to try nor to listen. What's this? Do you want all for nothing?

You can think it's garbage, fine. You can think it doesn't work, fine still. But if you ask me for a way to do it I tell you what you must do to begin learning doing it the way I know and I have done. But now you say that what I told you is not correct and it's garbage. It is you that asked me how to do a thing and now you pretend to be an expert that knows that I'm telling you an idiocy? If you were an expert already why did you ask me?

Quote from: Rudolph on June 25, 2011, 11:31:06
I asked you about your "method" of Middle Pillar because I am aware of about a half dozen significantly different variations on the central them which you lightly touched on.

The variations means nothing. The central structure is always the same, but, if you want a reference then the best way (being the full) to do it has been written by Regardie in "The Tree of Life".

Quote from: Rudolph on June 25, 2011, 11:31:06
I am trying to get very specific and you keep returning to generalities (which makes it look like you really don't know what you are talking about).

I'm speaking in generalities because how can I do elsewhere if I don't know what you have done in the past? Can I talk about chess specifically with someone that I know not if he either knows the rules on how to move?  What you say really makes no sense and if instead of wainting to act rude and try to prove I am just telling garbage (that in anyway you would not be able to discern neither if you wanted) you would have reflected a bit on the thing you would have known it already.

Begin doing what I said (if you are really interested, and I already did know you weren't, but still...), when you will have some experience on those things then you can return to me to ask about clarifications on how to go on from there. Every learning process is to be taken in steps, you pretend for me to give you detailed instructions from beginning, without either seeing how you behave on certain things, but this not how it works, no matter if you pretend it's so.

Naturally there are some things that are "easier" than others, and can either be resolved in a single "instruction". This is not one of them, if you think the contrary I suppose, again, that you already know better, so why ask me?

Quote from: Rudolph on June 25, 2011, 11:31:06
As I've said, if you really do have applied knowledge that arrives at a specific result, I am all ears.

Yes, I saw.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 25, 2011, 11:31:06
So... Raja yoga can require six months or a lifetime... or something inbetween, heh. Not real helpful. I know one school in India where they teach that if you follow their system of Yoga for Four Lifetimes the devotee will attain Liberation from the Wheel.
:lol:  :lol:

No thanks.

As you like.

Maybe if you did want to read instead of just replying something idiot you would have understood what I said. I said that if you just care for the result you want (in this case learning how to "exit" voluntarily) then it can take a certain amount of time, if you want to go on (as many does) then it requires a lifetime because you will live by it and the "results" will never end.

It was not difficult to understand if you really wanted to hear, but, no matter if you insist that's not so, you just don't care. You just asked me a way to do it at beginning because you wanted to demonstrate that I know nothing, isn't it? I did know it already but in any case I replied you seriously since I decided to reply to you at all.

So stop wasting my time now that you supposedly have "succeeded" in your mind, I'm not interested in your ego war. Think what you want.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51
Selea,

You have failed Rudolph too. :-D

So you either think someone can fail someone other, good to know.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51
Your last post has just shown me that you are clearly not interested in having an intellectual debate, but rather, more focused on contradicting me at all costs. You need to realise that if you continue like that, people will lose interest in anything you have to say.

A) You are contradicting yourself from thougth to action, *all the time*, not me.
B) Yes, I'm not interested in an *intellectual* debate because that means nothing. I'm interested on practical applications.
C) I don't care, differently from you, about other people being interested or not in what I say. I just tell what I know, as little or as much as it can be, and people will then decide for themselves. I'm not interested in being popular or being liked.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51By the way, go on Viewers and you will find two threads called "Where's Summerlander gone" and "I miss Summerlander", I have my sources and evidently there are people who think I was wronged...go there...check! :-D

You are so interested in these petty things, I see. Do you care so much to let know to all others how good you are that you cannot avoid repeating these things over an over in any post?

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51
The woman you use as reference can go to the same places as anyone can...as I said before...it also depends on where your mind is at.

If it was so simple... there's more than just "belief" as many researches on the argument (anthropological and practical) have demonstrated.

You pretend to have an intellectual debate but either your knowledge on these things, academically speaking, it is very low.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51
You have a thing for aliens then you are likely to see/visit alien worlds. You have a thing about deities then you are likely to experience this. If you have stray thoughts in the Phase, then you are likely to land in random places.

It's not so, but if you want to believe this then fine. I never asked you to believe what I said, I just asked you to not be so sure of everything and act as a master before either trying. You have not the slightest intention of doing it because you think you already know everything just because intellectually a thing make more sense than another to you (but you have neither so much academical knowledge as to really have a real intellectual choice therein). This approach will only limit you in the end and it will bring you to a world of self-delusion where you think you are the "king" while neither being able to do a joker's work.

When you learn an art, as music, and you want to learn it well you don't focus only on what it's intellectually near to you POW or do you think it's "right". You do everything in there until you are a master doing everything, both what you care and what you don't care, both what you think is necessary and what it isn't. In fact a good "master" is not one who teaches, because there's nothing to "teach", but it is one that gives you discipline and doesn't care about what you "want" or "like" but just on making you learn everything, especially things you don't like or care about.

You suppose here, in these things, the story it is different, but that's not so.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51
If you have focused intent, then you will get where you want to be (particularly when it comes to visits). It is all mind, selea. If the belief in energy systems that you believe in helps you, then by all means use it - perhaps that is what you got used to - but don't start saying to others that they are incapable of this and that if they don't do as you do because that is completely inaccurate.

Probably you don't really want to read what I write, because I expressedly defined the way control works and what it means. You can set an intent *before* with a sleep method so that it *can* (but, also here, it is not a certainity, so it's has little of "control") but when you are out you cannot. What you talk about can work only before, to set an intent, nothing more.

So no, you cannot do it.

As for "believing" or not believing you are missing the point again. If you did read a thing of what I wrote instead of wanting to feel good hearing your voice and pretending you are popular you would understand that I stressed that the only things that matters is what you can do, not what you believe or not believe.

You can think a shaman "undeducated" and believing garbage but the fact is that if he takes peyote, for example, he can use that experience in ways that "educated" people will never be able to. Yes, they think they know what's "right" or "wrong", yet this serves them nothing practically and all they have taking the drug is nonsense and silly things, of little value outside of "it was a blast!". So, who do you think it has the upper hand in the end? The "uneducated" shaman that can work practically or the "educated" man that can do nothing also if s/he thinks s/he knows how eveything works and it is so sure about what's "real" and what isn't?

Then I teach you a secret. Good shamans, as Matsùwa (Don José, the individual on whom Castaneda created his imaginary Don Juan) knows exactly what is what, they are not "uneducated" at all, it is just that they know how to use both things, instead of none of them just because they are more intersted in what "works" instead of what is "real".

You didn't get my sentence on the sun and Tatewarì, obviously, but that's what it meant.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 12:53:51Here's a few sayings, which funnily enough are found in the Big TOE, and may serve as a basis for deeper thought:

Totally... missing.... the point... at.

Oh well, whatever.

I usually am not interested on debating "intellectual" and wide range arguments because I prefer speaking about practical applications but since you insist with this fable of a thing being "truer" than another, I will let you consider this:

By doing certain practices until a certain point you will learn (practically, not intellectually) that EVERYTHING is an illusion. Speaking about phylosophy, then, Wittgenstein and Husserl have already demonstrated quite too well that our "certainity" on the things we see, hear, touch, etc. is just a conventionality given by the socialization and a certain univoque employ of the senses. In recent times Ouspensky and Csikszentmihalyi have espanded on the concept either more, demonstrating how a new born child learns to conform to a certain "structure" in what s/he perceives. Science, then with Quantum Physics has already began demonstrating the fallacy of the concept of space/time as defined by both our society and our senses, and the preconcepts on "solidity" we have therein, either on the physical body.

So, you see, all your wanting to debate on what is "true" and what is "false" in the end is just like debating who is more powerful of Superman and Spiderman and then starting behaving (deciding a course of action) on who you like more, pretending that your point of view is more "real" than another.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 19:09:12
I believe that people can project at will, but this projecting at will thing requires a little effort (that's how I do it - I once projected in less than two minutes from employing my method and I don't call that "projecting at will").

You do like so much to fabricate things I never said and pretend that you are "confuting" them, isn't it?

Please tell me where I said that it doesn't take effort because I'm curious.

And then "effort" means nothing at all, as time. It is the structure of the method that counts.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 25, 2011, 19:09:12Selea said he knows people that project while they are walking. I disagree with this. It may be possible in the distant future, but not yet, in my mind.

You have changed your tone, I see. First it was "impossible, they are lying", now it is "I disagree".

But anyway also intellectually what you say makes no much sense, really. All the resources you have are within you already, no need of "evolution". The matter is only if you care to understand how to use them or if you don't care because you just debate if they are "bogus" or not instead of acting a little more.

"All we are saaayiiing, please give 'bogus' a chanceeee!" :)

Quote from: Selea on June 26, 2011, 05:34:16
The "fact" that you think you explained it clearly it doesn't mean that it happened. I told you that it is possible to do and I told you the way on how to begin doing it.
And I replied you that it's not a thing pertaining to only a *specific* method. You have to train different aspects.

I told you what happens if you want to try. You asked me how to do it and I replied, but now you don't care not to try nor to listen. What's this? Do you want all for nothing?

You can think it's garbage, fine. You can think it doesn't work, fine still. But if you ask me for a way to do it I tell you what you must do to begin learning doing it the way I know and I have done. But now you say that what I told you is not correct and it's garbage. It is you that asked me how to do a thing and now you pretend to be an expert that knows that I'm telling you an idiocy? If you were an expert already why did you ask me?

I asked because you made a rather bold claim and if true I am sincerely interested in your method. But it is clear to me that this "superior" method of yours (Light Body, Middle Pillar, Raja Yoga, hand waving, smoke blowing...etc.) is just exaggeration.

You see, Selea, you came in here and talked down the Raduga obe4u method and made a claim to having a better method. Now, I personally am familiar with the Raduga method and I know by personal experience that it is excellent. For me, it worked as advertised. Now someone comes along and says they have something even better?! wow! I am definitely interested.

So... Regardie's Tree of Life. oh.... That. okay. Why it took so much to get that out of you is a mystery. Well, I read as much of that book as I could long ago and the archaic style is tedious at best. I really could not take it seriously after reading the "Banishing Ritual". I also consider it one of the worst resources out there for learning the Middle Pillar exercise. For those not familiar with it;
http://www.davedavies.com/splanet/magic3.htm
This is a rather involved exercise and takes quite a while to learn how to do it properly. This plus 2 to 4 hours a day Raja Yoga and then maybe, what?, 30 minutes to an hour  a day developing the "Body of Light"? ... hmmmm. Do this for a few years and the chela will 'soon' be Astral projecting "at will" ??
Sorry Charlie but that does not even begin to compare to the efficacy and results of the obe4u approach.

Now just to put this in perspective I had been doing the Robert Bruce MAP work for almost two years and had been getting OBE about once a month before I stumbled across the obe4u method. But when I tried it, it took my success rate to a whole new level in about a week. (And as I already said, I had been practicing a branch of Surat Shabd yoga for decades before the Baba Fakir Chand revelations and I became disillusioned with the entire Hindu yoga culture and methods).

So, your ambiguity and general hand waving and claims to needing to know more about the individual level of development is not holding water, Selea.

You made a bold claim but you have backed it up with basically nothing.

Quote from: Oversoul123 on June 25, 2011, 23:45:02
Xanth, I agree 100%.

Summerlander, fair enough, we probably had some misunderstings, that's all.  Oh, and Tom didn't make any claims, they are his theories, my bad; and I agree, we should analyze our own experiences ourselves, and reach our own conclusions pragmatically.  So no worries, it's all good.

I think it was a misunderstanding too. I meant to say that Campbell can probably project every time he tries it but if he was sitting at a table and eating a hot bowl of soup, then he wouldn't be able to do it. :-D

No worries, it's all good. By the way, I think his theory is pretty good and that low entropy high entropy consciousness was experienced by me recently but not in the Phase. I was simply thinking about something and realised that the source of my low entropy thinking was rooted in high entropy. It's something I posted not too long ago. I think you'll be interested - I'll see if I can find it unless you've come across TRIKKA TRENDY...

@ Rudolph:

Don't stretch yourself. I think Selea only brought up the Body of Light to contradict me. I don't think he even knows what he is talking about there but, I'm not making any accusation, Selea...just thinking out loud. :-D

It's not worth explaining anything Rudy, because Selea won't budge.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
I asked because you made a rather bold claim and if true I am sincerely interested in your method. But it is clear to me that this "superior" method of yours (Light Body, Middle Pillar, Raja Yoga, hand waving, smoke blowing...etc.) is just exaggeration.

All methods that can make you "exit" voluntarily are "superior" than those who employ sleep on the things I've explained. Nothing is "superior" than "another" on a whole. Different things brings you different results, it's just this.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
You see, Selea, you came in here and talked down the Raduga obe4u method and made a claim to having a better method.

It's not "my" method. I never claimed something is "mine", differently from Raduga, in fact.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
Now, I personally am familiar with the Raduga method and I know by personal experience that it is excellent. For me, it worked as advertised. Now someone comes along and says they have something even better?! wow! I am definitely interested.

A) It's NOT Raduga method. Those things have been written in Shaman's texts from a lot of time, really a lot. He just took them and recycled with pseudo-scientific terms mixing them with some research of others (as LaBerge) pretending he invented something. If you did read a little more you would not not have needed to read Raduga and you will now be able to know that what he says is really nothing special (and not for what it is, but for the fact that's not HIS).
B) I never said it doesn't work. I just said that all methods that require sleep give you no control and they are tied to the physical body sleeping. They have naturally some positives too, one for example is that they are really easy to learn and adopt, and everybody can do them without previous training in nothing else.
C) It's "better" if you want to put the effort on learning it. If you just want results immediately and don't care about what type of "result" you get then not, it's not "better", at all. You will just waste time.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
So... Regardie's Tree of Life. oh.... That. okay. Why it took so much to get that out of you is a mystery.

OMG. I told you immediately, it's you that started the diatribe in all "variations". If you did a bit of research instead of attacking me you would have come to the source of the technique, that's obviously the "better" in the sense that's not corrupted by every other person he thinks he knows better without neither understanding how things works, isn't it?

As for the LBPR, again, it is one of the most complete rituals. Archaic or not it doesn't matter. Believing on it or not it doesn't matter. What matters (for the now 100th time) it is that doing certain things certain things happens. And doing the LBPR *many* things of a various nature happens, no matter if you think it garbage or not. Just trying doing it for about six months, two times a day, with an open mind, not caring to "believe" or not "believe" or if it is "garbage" or not. Just do it, then probably your point of view on it will change dramatically, as it has changed for everyone that thought the same as you at beginning.

Things are never that simple as they look. You just watch name of angels, gestures and think: "this is pathetic", but there's much more to it that you cannot know because you just try to decide it intellectually.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50Well, I read as much of that book as I could long ago and the archaic style is tedious at best. I really could not take it seriously after reading the "Banishing Ritual". I also consider it one of the worst resources out there for learning the Middle Pillar exercise. For those not familiar with it;

Again I see how do you really want to learn. You already know what's "garbage" and what's not. Good to know. Now, please can you just reply to someone else? I have no time to waste with your ego, I already told you.

You people are hilarious. You ask but then you don't want to either try what I told you to do. Again, why did you ask me if you already did know what was "wrong" or "right" therein and that had not intention of doing anything I said anyway?

You just wanted an intellectual discussion on what's "right" and what's "wrong"? If you care about these things I'm sure you will find a lot of people around really interested, as your friend. I'm not. You asked for directions, I gave you them. If you are not interested on acting but just debating then I'm not the person for you, I'm sorry.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
This is a rather involved exercise and takes quite a while to learn how to do it properly.

It's obvious, or did you expect everything for nothing. Did you expected a course of 30 days in where you became a master? Good luck on your search.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
This plus 2 to 4 hours a day Raja Yoga and then maybe, what?, 30 minutes to an hour  a day developing the "Body of Light"? ... hmmmm. Do this for a few years and the chela will 'soon' be Astral projecting "at will" ??

You have neither reasearched a bit on the things you are talking about and I've told you to do, this already shows everything about how much you really cared to begin with .

If you did at last try instead of growing up your ego on silly things you already would understand what Raja Yoga is and what it does. As for the Body of Light it's a method that does something specific, and, also there, you, as your friend, cannot and will never understand how it works because it's not a thing that you can understand just by "thinking" you know how it works.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
Sorry Charlie but that does not even begin to compare to the efficacy and results of the obe4u approach.

If you say so...

A shame that the thingsI told you to do goes well beyond simply "exiting" the body.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
Now just to put this in perspective I had been doing the Robert Bruce MAP work for almost two years and had been getting OBE about once a month before I stumbled across the obe4u method. But when I tried it, it took my success rate to a whole new level in about a week. (And as I already said, I had been practicing a branch of Surat Shabd yoga for decades before the Baba Fakir Chand revelations and I became disillusioned with the entire Hindu yoga culture and methods).

Your "success" rate means nothing. You were just intersted in "results" on the experience of an OBE and sleep methods give you that very fast. But you have no control when you are out and this doesn't interest you, good to know.

As for Surat Shabd, that has nothing to do with Raja Yoga, and, in fact, it is just sillines brought upon by yet another "guru" and it will never bring you to an OBE (if you cared about it) because, apart being really weak in itself, it's not either meant for it.

Then what's Hindu Yoga? You don't either know of what the hell you are talking about. Hindu Yoga has so many branches, everyone of them doing something specific and with a different results, converging only on the end of the path, but "sidestepping" all the others, depending on the method. Hatha Yoga, for example, will never bring you to "OBEs", nor it will Bhakti Yoga, etc. but they will bring you to Samadhi that's the end of the path for every type of yoga. After, when you have reached Samadhi you can do everything you want but you usually care no more since it suffices for itself.

As you see, your "knowledge" on the things being talked is really, really low. You didn't either know what you were doing and what to expect when you started doing it and now you blame the method instead of yourself. If you try to go to Rome via inland you cannot then blame the road for not letting you see the sea, blame yourself for not doing something that would bring you to that path and more than anything else blame yourself for caring about what you didn't "saw" instead on coming to Rome.

Raja Yoga is netiher "Yoga" (or, better, it is, in the meaning of the term, it isn't for what people consider "yoga" nowadays) it's just a term to indicate a series of practices that have the scope of giving you full concentration, ranging from the physical to the mental. Again, if you would have researched instead of figthing me, you would already know.

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
So, your ambiguity and general hand waving and claims to needing to know more a out the individual level of development is not holding water, Selea.

As you like.

Still it's not me that asked you something and then pretended I did know better. It's not me who pretends to discern what's "garbage" and what's not without clearly either knowing of what I'm talking about. As I said you, either if it was garbage, you would not have the knowledge nor the experience to understand it, so why pretend you do?

Make up your mind. If you really did do some yoga (garbage style or not) and your ego is still so strong I wonder what the hell you have really done...

Quote from: Rudolph on June 26, 2011, 13:42:50
You made a bold claim but you have backed it up with basically nothing.

And naturally you can judge this with your... knowledge? OMG.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 26, 2011, 18:53:21
@ Rudolph:

Don't stretch yourself. I think Selea only brought up the Body of Light to contradict me. I don't think he even knows what he is talking about there but, I'm not making any accusation, Selea...just thinking out loud. :-D

Again a personal attack, I see. Still pretending to talk badly about a thing I already demonstrated you know nothing about, I see. But if you still pretend to know better I will be more than happy to oblige. Post a thread were you "analyze" that "method" and how it should supposedly works and I will let you see that what you think you "know" about it it's all completely and irremediably, WRONG, and that, in fact, all your "analysis" is just silly talk of an intellectual nature. Naturally this will make you do a really bad figure in the eyes of all others here and your supposed "popularity" will fall badly, and, since this thing it's very important for you, take it in mind.

You have not been able till now but to try to show your popularity, you have not been able to neither tie act and words, you have never been able to listen because you were more intent on just talking, you insiste on debating on things you did not know from personal experience and just pretending to be an expert upon,  and yet you think you can decide what's "right" or "wrong", you have neither been able to have a conversations without resorting to peronal insults and silly behaviour.

You see, OBEs means very little in the end. The things you are "doing" brings you nowhere, you are full of yourself and pathetically insecure as to always have to attack others personally, having confirmations from your "friends" or backing-up their statements, and to brag you successes around, and what's worse is that these are neither "yours", in the end.

So, all in all, everything you say about yourself and what you think you "know" it is contradicted by how you act and behave.

You know the saying: "by their fruits you shall know them"?

Ahh...I see. So that's your problem. My apparent popularity...

Selea, I think you should think before you post.

Another piece of advice...try not to say "shame on you" to others so much and quit pointing out their egos because you've one too.

You are right that it's not Raduga's method, sure...but he's highlighted the main areas and he's helped many. There is someone else who has many decades of experience and he undoubtedly understands the whole process better than I do. He also agrees with Raduga. If he saw the things you've been posting here - especially about the Body of Light method being superior, he would most probably urinate from his eyes. He's working on a film at the mo though...

Quote from: Summerlander on June 27, 2011, 04:27:46
Ahh...I see. So that's your problem. My apparent popularity...

Again missing the point, totally. Why don't you ever read instead of being so wrapped up in your words?

As for popularity in this forums, that's an easy thing to get. If I was interested (and I was, many years ago, being like you) I would act totally different.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 27, 2011, 04:27:46
Selea, I think you should think before you post.

If only for once you would follow your advices to others for yourself....

Quote from: Summerlander on June 27, 2011, 04:27:46
Another piece of advice...try not to say "shame on you" to others so much and quit pointing out their egos because you've one too.

The difference between my ego and yours is too much evident in the posts here. If you weren't not so full of yourself you would see the the difference in how I behave and how you do.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 27, 2011, 04:27:46
You are right that it's not Raduga's method, sure...but he's highlighted the main areas and he's helped many. There is someone else who has many decades of experience and he undoubtedly understands the whole process better than I do.

I would be curious to know this guy, but, just for your information, having years of experience doesn't really mean anything at all, on itself. If you have 20 years of experience in "chess" it means nothing. Another guy who has "experience" in it for 2 years it is has become a GM while your ECO has grow at most to 1500; there are a lot of these cases around on the net.

Do you know the difference? The method and what you do, experience without structure means nothing at all.

Reread my example on music, maybe you will get what I mean here.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 27, 2011, 04:27:46
He also agrees with Raduga. If he saw the things you've been posting here - especially about the Body of Light method being superior, he would most probably urinate from his eyes. He's working on a film at the mo though...

Let him come here and debate about the method. I hope he's better than you on seeing how it works because, elsewhere, he will just make a silly figure as you have done.

Urinating on things you know nothing about thinking you are so smart just wastes urine and make a fool of yourself.

Ok, Selea.

Quote from: Summerlander on June 27, 2011, 04:48:57
Ok, Selea.

Good debate and good points, as always.

P.S: If you want you can bring your friend and we can do a "race" on whom has the most years of experience. "I have 25", "I have 30", "No, but I have 31 considering that I was already doing it when I was a child", since these are the only things you care about. Surely this will make everybody see who is the "best" one.